Sinning never ends

[Jonathan_Gale]

You are making a forgiveable mistake when reading scripture. Many make this mistake. Namely, you are not grasping that scripture chiefly refers to adults and not children.

Example:

1. When God tells Abraham that their are less then ten righteous in Sodom, do you think He was considering all the children and babies? No. He was not.
2. When God says the world was evil at the time of Noah, was He referring to children? When all died in the flood, do you believe children went to Hades with the adults?

All under the age of twenty were spared by God in the wilderness and saw the promised land. Jesus says, heaven belongs to children.

You need to understand that God is not a fool that sends a child to Hades / Hell. As such, all children are excempt, neutral. There is NO SUCH THING as an evil baby. If any believe that, they are the definition of mental cases and need to see a doctor. Please take that with a pinch of salt . I used to believe it as I was taught it. It is untrue heretical, nonsensical tripe.

I gave a scripture to support my statement and have explained this view in post 37 above.

Your statement is ironic. Just I do not consider you a false teacher, just miss taught. But now you know the truth. A cute little baby is 100% innocent and sinless. No baby will ever go to hell.

This should be painfully obvious. Just absolutely insane that so many can believe such error. Many do not chew properly on their beliefs. Crazy stuff.

You need to understand something very important. There is a fine line here between incriminating God as wicked verse humans as wicked. You are stepping on incriminating God.

If God made is evil, God is evil. If God made us with the ability to choose good and evil, God is good as that is giving us free will.

As such, ANY teaching / statements of 'babies born with sin, all with propensity for sin, Adam 'definitely' choosing sin, sinful nature from birth, these are all heretical statements the devil pushes. The devil wants all to have a tainted picture of God in their minds. We need to identify this extreme error and not help the devil. We are ambassadors of God.

You are defending the leftist heresy that upends the basic principle of Christianity, which is original sin. Without Christ all are naturally on the broad way to destruction, the only difference is in Luke 12:48, "he who did not know yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW; for everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the MORE." A cute little baby may look innocent to you and I, from dust he still comes from and to dust he still returns. If he doesn't have a new birth in spirit, then there's no afterlife with Christ.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Jonathan, you said those two chapters supported us judging angles, I asked you to explain how. I am being sincere. I have no clue how they support your statement.

You are going in circles. Just concede or answer the question.

Discussion forums work like this:

Question - Answer
Questionable statement - Explanation

Not, Questionable statement - you can't read - You know what I mean - No, You are... - Provide unrelated example of money...

You are being painful and just coming across as a someone who is unsure of their belief.

You asked how Christian are to judge angels, I answered that Christians are in position as co-heirs with Christ who will judge, those seven letters are examples. Don't blame me for repeatedly and purposefully ignoring the word ANGEL of this and that church in Rev. 2:1, 2:8, 2:12, 2:18, 3:1, 3:7 and 3:14.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I gave a scripture to support my statement and have explained this view in post 37 above.

Your statement is ironic. Just I do not consider you a false teacher, just miss taught. But now you know the truth. A cute little baby is 100% innocent and sinless. No baby will ever go to hell.

This should be painfully obvious. Just absolutely insane that so many can believe such error. Many do not chew properly on their beliefs. Crazy stuff.

The idea of "sinless baby" is from Nietzsche who was of his father the devil, not the bible. And don't take my word for it, go google it yourself.

And yes, "crazy stuff", you've got that right. Faith is crazy, gospel is crazy, salvation is crazy, because they are counterintuitive that goes against conventional thinking, and yet God designed the world in that way in order to make it work. A plane of aluminium can fly in the air, a ship of steel can float in the water, crazy stuff to me - until they're taken for granted. A cute baby is 100% innocent and sinless? What if he carries a gene for cancer? Or autism? Behold, a man who was blind from the birth, whose fault is that? "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents?" Since in your logic, the baby's 100% innocent and sinless, then it must be his parents' fault, right? According to you, but not to my Lord and Savior Yeshua: "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him." John 9:1-3.

The conclusion is simple, this world is fallen and broken, until Yeshua comes, sin is always present, and no baby can be spared from it. What can be done to spare them, however, is the works of God to be reveal in them in the NICU.

 

[KingJ]

You are defending the leftist heresy that upends the basic principle of Christianity, which is original sin. Without Christ all are naturally on the broad way to destruction, the only difference is in Luke 12:48, "he who did not know yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW; for everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the MORE." A cute little baby may look innocent to you and I, from dust he still comes from and to dust he still returns. If he doesn't have a new birth in spirit, then there's no afterlife with Christ.

You have been brain washed with an original sin teaching that is not found anywhere in scripture.

No, Jonathan, without Jesus we would not all be en route to Hell.

In the OT God created an 'Abraham's bosom' in Hades for all who would repent. God separates sinner and sinner between those who from their own free will repent from those who don't. Or whose repentance does not pass His judgement of heart Jer 17:9-10.

What is true is what Paul says in 1 John 1:8 Whoever says he is without sin deceives himself. Paul is speaking to adults. Paul knows that every adult has sinned. Jesus gives us a most classic example of this in Matt 5:28 immoral thoughts.

What we learn from this is that our weak flesh + evil all around = inevitable sin. We can take this argument back to Adam and Eve. God put two sinless humans in Eden with the devil. God knew it was just a matter of time before mankind sin. But, very important point to grasp is that God did not put sin in Adam and Eve. Putting evil devil in their environment and giving them a weak flesh is creating the setting for sinful man, not making man commit the sin.

God knew an intelligent creation like mankind would choose rebellion to Him. Intelligence + free will = sin. Thus, God knew that Jesus had to be planned for the cross before He made man 1 Pet 1:20.

Going a bit off track, back on track. Key point to grasp is that God did not chase babies out of Eden. Adam and Eve were adults. God did not force Adam to eat the forbidden fruit. The devil tempted him and Adam chose. God did however put the devil there. So, what is clear is that from day one, God has wanted a balance of good and evil in an environment that humans grow up in. Why would God want such an environment if humans were evil from birth? It makes no sense.

You say a cute little baby is not innocent? By this statement I know that you do not grasp what defiles us. What it is that makes a human sinful before God.

Matt15:18-19 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

We are defiled when we become adults and sin is able to come from our hearts. We are NOT defiled when we are born.

All adults have been defiled. It is very hard to not think a sinful thought. This is why I love Jesus's example in Matt 5:28, it really sheds perfect light on why all have sinned.

A baby is unable to produce evil from their heart. They mimic those around them and whatever influences them.

The bible is crystal clear that all under twenty were spared by God in the wilderness and allowed into the promised land. The bible is crystal clear that heaven belongs to children Matt 19:4. Jesus's own words.

Many come unstuck on babies and children as they cannot grasp what God's plan is for them. Well most scholar's I have spoken to hypothesize that the millennium is for them and the handicapped. As scripture says the devil will be re-released on earth to tempt mankind for the last time Rev 20:3. As God is impartial Acts 10:34 He cannot allow any human to live in heaven unless they have endured the test of loving or hating what is evil.

 

[KingJ]

You asked how Christian are to judge angels, I answered that Christians are in position as co-heirs with Christ who will judge, those seven letters are examples. Don't blame me for repeatedly and purposefully ignoring the word ANGEL of this and that church in Rev. 2:1, 2:8, 2:12, 2:18, 3:1, 3:7 and 3:14.

And which angels are we judging, the fallen or those currently with God?

 

[KingJ]

The idea of "sinless baby" is from Nietzsche who was of his father the devil, not the bible. And don't take my word for it, go google it yourself.

And yes, "crazy stuff", you've got that right. Faith is crazy, gospel is crazy, salvation is crazy, because they are counterintuitive that goes against conventional thinking, and yet God designed the world in that way in order to make it work. A plane of aluminium can fly in the air, a ship of steel can float in the water, crazy stuff to me - until they're taken for granted. A cute baby is 100% innocent and sinless? What if he carries a gene for cancer? Or autism? Behold, a man who was blind from the birth, whose fault is that? "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents?" Since in your logic, the baby's 100% innocent and sinless, then it must be his parents' fault, right? According to you, but not to my Lord and Savior Yeshua: "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him." John 9:1-3.

The conclusion is simple, this world is fallen and broken, until Yeshua comes, sin is always present, and no baby can be spared from it. What can be done to spare them, however, is the works of God to be reveal in them in the NICU.

John 9:1-3 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

This verse says absolutely nothing about the baby having sin.

Children and animals are victims of adults sin. That is scriptural.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

And which angels are we judging, the fallen or those currently with God?

See, this is yet another example of false dichotomy. Until Satan and third of the angels are cast out, ALL angels are ascending Andre descending on a ladder between heaven and earth in Jacob’s dream, Gen. 28:12, all angels have access to both heaven and earth.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You have been brain washed with an original sin teaching that is not found anywhere in scripture.

No, Jonathan, without Jesus we would not all be en route to Hell.

In the OT God created an 'Abraham's bosom' in Hades for all who would repent. God separates sinner and sinner between those who from their own free will repent from those who don't. Or whose repentance does not pass His judgement of heart Jer 17:9-10.

What is true is what Paul says in 1 John 1:8 Whoever says he is without sin deceives himself. Paul is speaking to adults. Paul knows that every adult has sinned. Jesus gives us a most classic example of this in Matt 5:28 immoral thoughts.

What we learn from this is that our weak flesh + evil all around = inevitable sin. We can take this argument back to Adam and Eve. God put two sinless humans in Eden with the devil. God knew it was just a matter of time before mankind sin. But, very important point to grasp is that God did not put sin in Adam and Eve. Putting evil devil in their environment and giving them a weak flesh is creating the setting for sinful man, not making man commit the sin.

God knew an intelligent creation like mankind would choose rebellion to Him. Intelligence + free will = sin. Thus, God knew that Jesus had to be planned for the cross before He made man 1 Pet 1:20.

Going a bit off track, back on track. Key point to grasp is that God did not chase babies out of Eden. Adam and Eve were adults. God did not force Adam to eat the forbidden fruit. The devil tempted him and Adam chose. God did however put the devil there. So, what is clear is that from day one, God has wanted a balance of good and evil in an environment that humans grow up in. Why would God want such an environment if humans were evil from birth? It makes no sense.

You say a cute little baby is not innocent? By this statement I know that you do not grasp what defiles us. What it is that makes a human sinful before God.

Matt15:18-19 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

We are defiled when we become adults and sin is able to come from our hearts. We are NOT defiled when we are born.

All adults have been defiled. It is very hard to not think a sinful thought. This is why I love Jesus's example in Matt 5:28, it really sheds perfect light on why all have sinned.

A baby is unable to produce evil from their heart. They mimic those around them and whatever influences them.

The bible is crystal clear that all under twenty were spared by God in the wilderness and allowed into the promised land. The bible is crystal clear that heaven belongs to children Matt 19:4. Jesus's own words.

Many come unstuck on babies and children as they cannot grasp what God's plan is for them. Well most scholar's I have spoken to hypothesize that the millennium is for them and the handicapped. As scripture says the devil will be re-released on earth to tempt mankind for the last time Rev 20:3. As God is impartial Acts 10:34 He cannot allow any human to live in heaven unless they have endured the test of loving or hating what is evil.

You’re the one who’s brainwashed by modern leftist philosophy. Your arguments are just your opinions based on that “good nature” ideology, and the only reference you grasp on like a straw is the “under 20” statute. But according to the Scripture in Numbers 14, adult Israelites were guilty of rebelling against Moses and longing to return to Egypt, they refused to enter the Promised Land themselves based on the 10 spies’ terrifying report, and God but granted their wishes. Children were brought in in 14:31 only because they grew up in the wilderness under Moses’ leadership without the corruption from Egypt, by no means does that render them “sinless”. On the contrary, in Joshua 7 there was Achan who disobeyed Joshua’s command by keeping a share of accursed spoils from Jericho for himself, and that caused all Israelite army to suffer a defeat at Ai. Don’t tell me that’s “sinless” as well.

Your obsession with “cute little babies” is clouding your judgement. Yes, we all feel like that at first, but over time that feeling will be subject to the law of diminishing returns, even negative returns, translation, the crying, feeding and pooping will wear you out and drive you crazy. Why don’t you ask your wife who knows best in that department? Paul never adored babies, he saw babies as weak, only drinking milk, unable to digest meat, therefore expected his church to grow up, not staying as babies year after year. But wouldn’t maturing lose their innocence in your logic?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

John 9:1-3 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

This verse says absolutely nothing about the baby having sin.

Children and animals are victims of adults sin. That is scriptural.

Then why was he born blind - as a baby? I ask you the same question, whose sin is it?

In fact, it has always been the godless satanic leftist who are adamant on their support for ABORTING babies, you know why? Because they believe babies are sinless and innocent like you do, therefore worthy for human sacrifice to Molech. Firstborn for fame, prosperity and security, just like the Canaanites. And these days they don’t even bother to hide it any more. On the other side it has always been faithful Christians who are devoted to council pregnant young women, advocate pro-life laws and save babies, even at the risk of being arrested and going to prison. You know why? Because they understand John 9:1-3 perfectly, that babies even before birth deserve a chance of redemption, and they’re manifesting the work of God.

 

[KingJ]

See, this is yet another example of false dichotomy. Until Satan and third of the angels are cast out, ALL angels are ascending Andre descending on a ladder between heaven and earth in Jacob’s dream, Gen. 28:12, all angels have access to both heaven and earth.

I asked you to explain what you believe and the two chapters you quoted. You post yet another red herring.

 

[KingJ]

You’re the one who’s brainwashed by modern leftist philosophy. Your arguments are just your opinions based on that “good nature” ideology, and the only reference you grasp on like a straw is the “under 20” statute. But according to the Scripture in Numbers 14, adult Israelites were guilty of rebelling against Moses and longing to return to Egypt, they refused to enter the Promised Land themselves based on the 10 spies’ terrifying report, and God but granted their wishes. Children were brought in in 14:31 only because they grew up in the wilderness under Moses’ leadership without the corruption from Egypt, by no means does that render them “sinless”. On the contrary, in Joshua 7 there was Achan who disobeyed Joshua’s command by keeping a share of accursed spoils from Jericho for himself, and that caused all Israelite army to suffer a defeat at Ai. Don’t tell me that’s “sinless” as well.

Your obsession with “cute little babies” is clouding your judgement. Yes, we all feel like that at first, but over time that feeling will be subject to the law of diminishing returns, even negative returns, translation, the crying, feeding and pooping will wear you out and drive you crazy. Why don’t you ask your wife who knows best in that department? Paul never adored babies, he saw babies as weak, only drinking milk, unable to digest meat, therefore expected his church to grow up, not staying as babies year after year. But wouldn’t maturing lose their innocence in your logic?

If you ever heard a prophet or Jesus preach that babies go to hell, you would correctly call them and their belief 'one flew over the cuckoos nest'. Think on that.

This is why when given the opportunity to speak on children, Jesus said.... heaven belongs to them.

 

[KingJ]

Then why was he born blind - as a baby? I ask you the same question, whose sin is it?

I have answered this.

A cursed world is as a result of our sin. Even never had pain in childbirth when in Eden. Adam never had problems with the soil in Eden.

All evil is traced to angels or humans. Children and animals are under the cover of their parents, victims of their family bloodline. If you parents inbred, you would have issues.

God does not stop parents from inbreeding. He says He does not approve, but yet they still do it. Free will.

So, a Christian needs to be very careful to not incriminate God as the source of depravity for animals, children and adults that are not sold out to a love of sin.

In fact, it has always been the godless satanic leftist who are adamant on their support for ABORTING babies, you know why? Because they believe babies are sinless and innocent like you do, therefore worthy for human sacrifice to Molech. Firstborn for fame, prosperity and security, just like the Canaanites. And these days they don’t even bother to hide it any more. On the other side it has always been faithful Christians who are devoted to council pregnant young women, advocate pro-life laws and save babies, even at the risk of being arrested and going to prison. You know why? Because they understand John 9:1-3 perfectly, that babies even before birth deserve a chance of redemption, and they’re manifesting the work of God.

I would never support abortion.

There is nothing ''leftist'' about saying babies have no sin. It is scriptural, scientific and common sense.

 

[Dave M]

Just curious. Outside of your opinion. Where in scripture does it say there is no sin in heaven

Sin is death, heaven is eternal life NO SIN will be in heaven IMO

Revelation 21:27​

But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Romans 6:23​

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[KingJ]

Sin is death, heaven is eternal life NO SIN will be in heaven IMO

Revelation 21:27​

But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Romans 6:23​

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Good find Dave. You have brought a strong argument to the table.

Regarding Rev 21:27

Unclean does not imply one with sin. It alludes to a sin 'ner or one capable of a mortal sin.

No Christian is unclean. All Christians are washed by the blood of Jesus. We are perfect to God, mistakes and all. There is sadly,no such think as a human without sin. Only God is perfect. We, will never be God.

Regarding Rom 6:23

Jesus takes us from death to life. All in heaven will forever be sancitified by Jesus. Forever, because we need Him forever...because we will still sin.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I asked you to explain what you believe and the two chapters you quoted. You post yet another red herring.

What do you expect me to explain, friend? Scripture taught me to not pretending to be wise in one's own opinions. You asked me how angels are to be judged, I told you, first, that's not the focus in 1 Cor. 6:1-3, Paul wants matters to be settled within the church instead of escalating them to the level of a civil lawsuit;

Second, "judging angels" is just one phrase you chrrypicked to back up your own narrative that "all angels sin", which, again, a huge distraction from our own sin and Yeshua's atonement for our sin; whether all angels sin or not, doesn't matter to me and shouldn't be to you, I care about remove the plank from my own eyes first, and so should you;

And third, regarding those seven letters in Rev. 2-3, I know according to some commentators the "angels" of those seven churches are actually pastors or church leaders, and you might have bought into that, but nothing can be further from the truth. Bible says they are angels, then they're angels overseeing those seven churches, and they are judged by Christ.

If you ever heard a prophet or Jesus preach that babies go to hell, you would correctly call them and their belief 'one flew over the cuckoos nest'. Think on that.

This is why when given the opportunity to speak on children, Jesus said.... heaven belongs to them.

Yes I have. "He who doesn't believe is condemned ALREADY," Jn. 3:18. You tell me if a baby understands and believes. Yeshua hanged around with children so they can understand and believe.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I have answered this.

A cursed world is as a result of our sin. Even never had pain in childbirth when in Eden. Adam never had problems with the soil in Eden.

All evil is traced to angels or humans. Children and animals are under the cover of their parents, victims of their family bloodline. If you parents inbred, you would have issues.

God does not stop parents from inbreeding. He says He does not approve, but yet they still do it. Free will.

So, a Christian needs to be very careful to not incriminate God as the source of depravity for animals, children and adults that are not sold out to a love of sin.

Yes, you answered, you do think it's the parents' fault, but Yeshua replied otherwise. I believe in Yeshua rather than you.

And "free will" is just another idol you worship. As for me, free will is real for believers and not real for unbelievers. If you don't believe, you're a slave to sin.

I would never support abortion.

There is nothing ''leftist'' about saying babies have no sin. It is scriptural, scientific and common sense.

That's neither scriptural, scientific nor common sense, it's just your own sense. If babies have no sin, then why do adults have? Where does sin come from and when does it slip in? It's completely "leftists" because leftists always blame everything on the external factors and influences while never examine their own intentions and practices. Also, using "cute babies" kind of language is a typical tactic of emotional blackmailing, it makes their opponent look heartless as though they hate babies, while in fact leftists are the ones who promote infancide through abortion. If you attribute it to your "all angels sin" narrative, again, then that's just the same excuse of "devil made me do it" that Eve gave God in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

...because we will still sin.

Oh really? I thought you believe babies have no sin. Actually, this is another reason leftists support abortion, that since babies have no sin, they die, they go straight to heaven. But in reality that just denies their chance to know Christ and go to heaven through him.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I asked you to explain what you believe and the two chapters you quoted. You post yet another red herring.

You know, it's not that I was deliberately being rude by avoiding your question, what I did is chanllenging your mentality of either-or dichotomy. If you're familiar with the gospel stories, you would know that in a lot of occasions such an either-or dichotomy was presented to Yeshua, John 9:1-3 is one, "legality of paying tax to Caesar" and the "adulterous woman" are other two famous ones. Yeshua never fell into their traps, he never chose one and then built an argument to justify his choice; instead he responded in the most brilliant ways beyond any earthly wisdom, therefore I just followed his example.

 

[KingJ]

Yes I have. "He who doesn't believe is condemned ALREADY," Jn. 3:18. You tell me if a baby understands and believes. Yeshua hanged around with children so they can understand and believe.

I will wait for you to have babies and then talk on this,

 

[KingJ]

And "free will" is just another idol you worship.

What denomination are you?

Every Christian I know believes in true free will, except for Calvinists.