Sinning never ends

[KingJ]

And I repeat, there is no sin in heaven.

And I give reasons for this in my OP. Please quote them and state why you disagree. Rather then just state your opinion. That is not how one discusses. This is a discussion forum.

"Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool," Acts 7:49. Saying there is sin on God's throne is equivalent to accusing God of sinning.

Is there sin on earth? His footstool? God allows sin to exist as it is necessary for free will. Do you not agree with free will? That, would be accusing God of being evil. Unless it is that you can prove no free will is a good thing.

Also, there's no such terms called "mortal sin" and "venial sin" in the Scripture, Yeshua only said that there's forgivable sin of blaspheming against the Son and UNFORGIVABLE sin of blaspheming against the Spirit.

You remind me of those people that do not believe in the trinity because the bible does not mention the exact word.

I gave examples in my OP of why I say there are mortal sins. Please quote them and state why you disagree. You really are just coming across like a troll at the moment.

 

[KingJ]

Then why wasn't Satan cast out of heaven right then, but Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden?

The devil was cast out. He was a serpent on earth, cast out of heaven prior to the fall of man. Most scholars agree with that.

When do you believe the devil fell? I think its very safe to conclude prior to man's fall as He has always been mentioned as a serpent with Adam and Eve. His days of being the covering cherub in Eden, wearing a crown with many jewels was thus before God created man.

Great, so "devil made me do it" is the actual reason for the eating of the Forbidden Fruit, not an excuse, and Adam and Eve deserved to be exonerated?

You are assuming here. The fact is that God placed the serpent with them. We know from scripture that Adam and Eve 'chose' from free will to eat the forbidden fruit. The devil was thus 'used' to perhaps speed up the inevitable?

1 John 3:8 is talking about God's plan of salvation at the beginning of this fall,

It is part of that sure, but it also mentions the devil, sinning from the beginning. You insert your opinion there and conclude it is our beginning. Jesus does not say, 'our' beginning. Jesus is from heaven, not earth. Jesus has known the devil from day one. Thus, if He was alluding to our beginning, He would have specifically stated that. He did not. Your opinion carries no weight here, sorry.

." I suggest you read the whole verse of 1 John 3:8 instead of just cherry picking half of it to build a weird narrative.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

No cherry picking. The remainder of the verse does not lend weight to your opinion. When Jesus says, beginning, unless He says otherwise, He means 'the beginning'.

 

[KingJ]

"To the ANGEL of Ephesus ... Pergamus ... Thyatira ... Sardis ... Laodicea write," it's all in there. Don't play dumb, you know which exact Scripture I'm alluding to. I see nothing in these scriptures that support your ridiculous point, that "all angels sin".

You gave two chapters as examples of angels being judged by us and Christ. I asked how any of the scriptures in there prove this. You still don't answer and support your theory. No, I am not playing dumb. Please properly explain what you are alluding to.

Even if they are, what does that have to do with you and I? Yeshua didn't die for any angels, He died for US, for you and I, for the sin of mankind. According to Eph. 1:21 and 6:12, there are these ranks of fallen angels - dominion, power, throne, principality, those are the angels to be judged; as for the rest, why do you care so much? As I said, this is just a distraction.

God's treatment of angels is definitely something for us to consider. We are the only two beings with God that have high intelligence, able to grasp good and evil Gen 3.

If Jesus / God did not die for angels, it is because He did not need to. Have you ever considered that? An impartial God would have included them if it were necessary.

I quoted them, as us judging them is evidence of them sinning in heaven. Paul mentions it to enforce his point of us judging matters properly between ourselves in 1 Cor 6:3. Meditate on that a bit.

 

[KingJ]

And I repeat, there is no sin in heaven. "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool," Acts 7:49. Saying there is sin on God's throne is equivalent to accusing God of sinning. Also, there's no such terms called "mortal sin" and "venial sin" in the Scripture, Yeshua only said that there's forgivable sin of blaspheming against the Son and UNFORGIVABLE sin of blaspheming against the Spirit.

Jonathan, answer my questions please.

1. Is there sin on God's footstool? A - Yes or B - No?
2. What sin does Paul mention in 1 Cor 5:1 A - Incest, B -Children stealing candy from the candy store
3. What sin warranted the death penalty in the OT - A murder, B - fornication
4. Does God change - A - Yes, B - No.
5. Does Jesus say thoughts are grounds for divorce in Matt 5:32? A - Yes, B - No.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

And I give reasons for this in my OP. Please quote them and state why you disagree. Rather then just state your opinion. That is not how one discusses. This is a discussion forum.



Is there sin on earth? His footstool? God allows sin to exist as it is necessary for free will. Do you not agree with free will? That, would be accusing God of being evil. Unless it is that you can prove no free will is a good thing.



You remind me of those people that do not believe in the trinity because the bible does not mention the exact word.

I gave examples in my OP of why I say there are mortal sins. Please quote them and state why you disagree. You really are just coming across like a troll at the moment.

A free will for WHAT? Scripture says truth shall set you free, but free to do WHAT? Well the truth is, we have a natural will to sin, but a free will to obey God, not the other way around. If you think we have a free will to SIN, then that's truly accusing God of being evil, go educate yourself with Rom. 6:1-2.

The devil was cast out. He was a serpent on earth, cast out of heaven prior to the fall of man. Most scholars agree with that.

When do you believe the devil fell? I think its very safe to conclude prior to man's fall as He has always been mentioned as a serpent with Adam and Eve. His days of being the covering cherub in Eden, wearing a crown with many jewels was thus before God created man.

You go worship your golden calf of "most scholars", while I hold on to what the Bible really says about when the devil was cast out, which is Rev. 12:12. If he were already cast out at the beginning, then tell me, how did he present himself and his fallen angels before God in Jobs 1:6?

You are assuming here. The fact is that God placed the serpent with them. We know from scripture that Adam and Eve 'chose' from free will to eat the forbidden fruit. The devil was thus 'used' to perhaps speed up the inevitable?

I did not assume, Eve did say that in Gen. 3:13. God used Satan to test Adam and Eve - as he used Satan to test Yeshua. The difference is, Adam failed, Yeshua passed. And the reason for Adam's failure is his invention of the first false doctrine - "you shall not eat it, NOR SHALL YOU TOUCH IT, lest you die." God never said you shall not touch it, either Adam or Eve invented it, which gave Satan an opportunity to deceive.

It is part of that sure, but it also mentions the devil, sinning from the beginning. You insert your opinion there and conclude it is our beginning. Jesus does not say, 'our' beginning. Jesus is from heaven, not earth. Jesus has known the devil from day one. Thus, if He was alluding to our beginning, He would have specifically stated that. He did not. Your opinion carries no weight here, sorry.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Tell me where's Satan in between the lines in Gen. 1 and 2? Where? All I can read in the Scripture is that God saw everything he created was GOOD. There was place for Satan and absolutely no mention of Satan until "our" beginning in Gen 3:1. Therefore, you're the one who's posting your own opinion, not me.

No cherry picking. The remainder of the verse does not lend weight to your opinion. When Jesus says, beginning, unless He says otherwise, He means 'the beginning'.

Yes you are. You're focusing on Satan instead of our risen savior who was there at the beginning, that's your pitfall. I wanna focus on my Lord Christ not the Antichrist.

You gave two chapters as examples of angels being judged by us and Christ. I asked how any of the scriptures in there prove this. You still don't answer and support your theory. No, I am not playing dumb. Please properly explain what you are alluding to.

Are those two chapters not a part of the Scripture? You asked about judging angels, I gave you five examples. And I've never said that's a theory, that's what Yeshua said to Apostle John. I don't need no theory, I let the Scripture explain itself. If you are not playing dumb, then why do you ask?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

God's treatment of angels is definitely something for us to consider. We are the only two beings with God that have high intelligence, able to grasp good and evil Gen 3.

If Jesus / God did not die for angels, it is because He did not need to. Have you ever considered that? An impartial God would have included them if it were necessary.

I quoted them, as us judging them is evidence of them sinning in heaven. Paul mentions it to enforce his point of us judging matters properly between ourselves in 1 Cor 6:3. Meditate on that a bit.

That's an obsession for you to consider, not me. Rabbi Paul taught me in Rom. 12:16, "Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion." Angels in high heaven and their business sound pretty much like high things to me. So forgive me for not wrapping my mind around this angels and going down your rabbit hole.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You remind me of those people that do not believe in the trinity because the bible does not mention the exact word.

I gave examples in my OP of why I say there are mortal sins. Please quote them and state why you disagree. You really are just coming across like a troll at the moment.

Trust me, I have no intention to troll. I just don't get your weird obsession with how angels are sinning in heaven instead of thinking about how we are sinning on earth. And I don't agree with your OPINION of "mortal sin" and "venial sin". There's no misdemeanors and felonies in God's eyes, to him a sin is a sin, guilty of one sin is guilty of all sins, therefore we're all sinners in need of salvation.

 

[KingJ]

A free will for WHAT? Scripture says truth shall set you free, but free to do WHAT? Well the truth is, we have a natural will to sin, but a free will to obey God, not the other way around. If you think we have a free will to SIN, then that's truly accusing God of being evil, go educate yourself with Rom. 6:1-2.

Rom 6:1-2, good verse. The first formidable argument you have presented.

The mistake you are making however is to cherry pick it. You need to accompany it with a verse like Rom 7:15.

Then you will grasp that the context is for us to not continue in sin. IE pluralize sin. IE Remain in it unrepentant. This does not mean we will not make 'mistakes' of sin.

You go worship your golden calf of "most scholars", while I hold on to what the Bible really says about when the devil was cast out, which is Rev. 12:12. If he were already cast out at the beginning, then tell me, how did he present himself and his fallen angels before God in Jobs 1:6?

It says he was a snake in the garden of Eden. End of discussion.

I did not assume, Eve did say that in Gen. 3:13. God used Satan to test Adam and Eve - as he used Satan to test Yeshua. The difference is, Adam failed, Yeshua passed. And the reason for Adam's failure is his invention of the first false doctrine - "you shall not eat it, NOR SHALL YOU TOUCH IT, lest you die." God never said you shall not touch it, either Adam or Eve invented it, which gave Satan an opportunity to deceive.

Not sure what your point is.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Tell me where's Satan in between the lines in Gen. 1 and 2? Where? All I can read in the Scripture is that God saw everything he created was GOOD. There was place for Satan and absolutely no mention of Satan until "our" beginning in Gen 3:1. Therefore, you're the one who's posting your own opinion, not me.

Ezekiel 28:13-14 speaks of the devil being in Eden as a covering cherub. Prior to being a snake.

Yes you are. You're focusing on Satan instead of our risen savior who was there at the beginning, that's your pitfall. I wanna focus on my Lord Christ not the Antichrist.

Reading what Jesus said as He said it is fine. Unless you have another scripture that gives context?

Are those two chapters not a part of the Scripture? You asked about judging angels, I gave you five examples. And I've never said that's a theory, that's what Yeshua said to Apostle John. I don't need no theory, I let the Scripture explain itself. If you are not playing dumb, then why do you ask?

You miss-understand me. You gave two chapters and therein I still have no clue how they support your point. Which scripture in them makes you say what you say. I see nothing about us or Christ judging angels. Churches were judged.

 

[KingJ]

Trust me, I have no intention to troll. I just don't get your weird obsession with how angels are sinning in heaven instead of thinking about how we are sinning on earth. And I don't agree with your OPINION of "mortal sin" and "venial sin". There's no misdemeanors and felonies in God's eyes, to him a sin is a sin, guilty of one sin is guilty of all sins, therefore we're all sinners in need of salvation.

Maybe you should re-read the title and the OP?

 

[KingJ]

A free will for WHAT? Scripture says truth shall set you free, but free to do WHAT? Well the truth is, we have a natural will to sin, but a free will to obey God, not the other way around. If you think we have a free will to SIN, then that's truly accusing God of being evil, go educate yourself with Rom. 6:1-2.

Interesting theory. But I believe it holds no water.

I explain Rom 6 in post 29 above, as to free will...

Mankind chooses to sin every time we sin. We have not got a ''natural desire to sin''. There is no scripture for that. Scripture says only that the flesh is weak. Our defence to sinning is weak, completely different statement to God giving us a natural desire to sin.

We do no choose righteousness from a state of sinning. We are all born innocent as babies. We go from a neutral position to sin, then hopefully to righteousness. Consider how all Hebrew children under twenty were spared by God and allowed to enter the promised land.

The results of Adams sin is in existence, sure. We grow up in a sinful environment. Also a completely different statement to ''we have a sinful nature''. Many teach we are born with a sinful nature, there is no scripture that supports this.

Free will is exercised when we go from a neutral position to accepting or rejecting Jesus. This is a decision tied at the hip to hating or loving what is wicked, as Jesus / God stand for all that is good. Rom 12:9.

Now free will is having the ability to choose either and live on with your decision. Free will is also having the ability to say ''No'' to God in heaven. AKA Sin.

As we are highly intelligent creations, free will is a VERY important discussion. You cannot merely make a candid statement as you have. A good God is NOT good unless He gives a highly intelligent creation like us and the angels true free will,

I really feel you need to meditate on the importance and reality of free will. Nobody, absolutely nobody is born in sin and destined for hell. That is a heretical statement to make. It implies God is a wicked nutcase.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You miss-understand me. You gave two chapters and therein I still have no clue how they support your point. Which scripture in them makes you say what you say. I see nothing about us or Christ judging angels. Churches were judged.

You are blind to the titles of those seven letters. Those are addressed to the ANGELS of those seven churches, got it? Angels, not pastors, deacons or worship leaders. Seven angels were appointed as overseers of these churches.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Interesting theory. But I believe it holds no water.

I explain Rom 6 in post 29 above, as to free will...

Mankind chooses to sin every time we sin. We have not got a ''natural desire to sin''. There is no scripture for that. Scripture says only that the flesh is weak. Our defence to sinning is weak, completely different statement to God giving us a natural desire to sin.

We do no choose righteousness from a state of sinning. We are all born innocent as babies. We go from a neutral position to sin, then hopefully to righteousness. Consider how all Hebrew children under twenty were spared by God and allowed to enter the promised land.

The results of Adams sin is in existence, sure. We grow up in a sinful environment. Also a completely different statement to ''we have a sinful nature''. Many teach we are born with a sinful nature, there is no scripture that supports this.

Free will is exercised when we go from a neutral position to accepting or rejecting Jesus. This is a decision tied at the hip to hating or loving what is wicked, as Jesus / God stand for all that is good. Rom 12:9.

Now free will is having the ability to choose either and live on with your decision. Free will is also having the ability to say ''No'' to God in heaven. AKA Sin.

As we are highly intelligent creations, free will is a VERY important discussion. You cannot merely make a candid statement as you have. A good God is NOT good unless He gives a highly intelligent creation like us and the angels true free will,

I really feel you need to meditate on the importance and reality of free will. Nobody, absolutely nobody is born in sin and destined for hell. That is a heretical statement to make. It implies God is a wicked nutcase.

Your mind is poisoned by the modern leftist philosophy that human nature is good at birth instead of sinful. You’re plain denying the original sin, thus denying the need for salvation. Once again, I don’t make up theories, this one is solidly based on Eph. 2:1-3 “we are dead in sins and trespasses”, and many other verses - “there is no one righteous, no not one,” “in sin I was conceived in my mother’s womb,” “through one man’s offense judgement came to all men,” yada yada. I never need to cherry pick any verse, this is the basic narrative scattered across the whole Bible.

Actually, God banned Adam from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the first place was because God knew that Adam wasn’t mature enough to choose. Given him the “free will to choose”, he would definitely choose evil, by no way would he choose good. And how would I know that? By comparing it to the temptation of Christ.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It says he was a snake in the garden of Eden. End of discussion.

Not sure what your point is.

Ezekiel 28:13-14 speaks of the devil being in Eden as a covering cherub. Prior to being a snake.

Wrong, did Satan transubstantiate into the flesh of a snake? No, he POSSESSED a snake. There're a handful of instances of exorcism performed by Yeshua in the gospels, in which demons take hosts of their victims, like it or not. I ask you again, if Satan were already cast out since the beginning, then how did he and his fallen angels get to present themselves before God in Jobs 1:6? How did he get to accuse our brethrens before God day and night in Rev. 12:9? That's because he still IS the "covering cherub" with access to God - until he's finally cast out in Rev. 12:12! In Jacob's dream, there was this ladder that allows all angels - good and evil ones - to climb up and DOWN between heaven and earth. That doesn't sound like being "ALREADY cast out at the beginning" to me. Oh, but of course, you're gonna dismiss this inconvenient truth as a myth, aren't you?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

We do no choose righteousness from a state of sinning. We are all born innocent as babies. We go from a neutral position to sin, then hopefully to righteousness. Consider how all Hebrew children under twenty were spared by God and allowed to enter the promised land.

You are of your father the devil. This philosophy in particular is from Nietzsche, not Yeshua. Don't think you can slip it in without notice, I know one when I see one.

 

[KingJ]

You are blind to the titles of those seven letters. Those are addressed to the ANGELS of those seven churches, got it? Angels, not pastors, deacons or worship leaders. Seven angels were appointed as overseers of these churches.

You are miss reading the chapters and once more not supporting your claim.

 

[KingJ]

Your mind is poisoned by the modern leftist philosophy that human nature is good at birth instead of sinful. You’re plain denying the original sin, thus denying the need for salvation. Once again, I don’t make up theories, this one is solidly based on Eph. 2:1-3 “we are dead in sins and trespasses”, and many other verses - “there is no one righteous, no not one,” “in sin I was conceived in my mother’s womb,” “through one man’s offense judgement came to all men,” yada yada. I never need to cherry pick any verse, this is the basic narrative scattered across the whole Bible.

Actually, God banned Adam from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the first place was because God knew that Adam wasn’t mature enough to choose. Given him the “free will to choose”, he would definitely choose evil, by no way would he choose good. And how would I know that? By comparing it to the temptation of Christ.

You are making a forgiveable mistake when reading scripture. Many make this mistake. Namely, you are not grasping that scripture chiefly refers to adults and not children.

Example:

1. When God tells Abraham that their are less then ten righteous in Sodom, do you think He was considering all the children and babies? No. He was not.
2. When God says the world was evil at the time of Noah, was He referring to children? When all died in the flood, do you believe children went to Hades with the adults?

All under the age of twenty were spared by God in the wilderness and saw the promised land. Jesus says, heaven belongs to children.

You need to understand that God is not a fool that sends a child to Hades / Hell. As such, all children are excempt, neutral. There is NO SUCH THING as an evil baby. If any believe that, they are the definition of mental cases and need to see a doctor. Please take that with a pinch of salt . I used to believe it as I was taught it. It is untrue heretical, nonsensical tripe.

 

[KingJ]

Actually, God banned Adam from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the first place was because God knew that Adam wasn’t mature enough to choose. Given him the “free will to choose”, he would definitely choose evil, by no way would he choose good. And how would I know that? By comparing it to the temptation of Christ.

You need to understand something very important. There is a fine line here between incriminating God as wicked verse humans as wicked. You are stepping on incriminating God.

If God made is evil, God is evil. If God made us with the ability to choose good and evil, God is good as that is giving us free will.

As such, ANY teaching / statements of 'babies born with sin, all with propensity for sin, Adam 'definitely' choosing sin, sinful nature from birth, these are all heretical statements the devil pushes. The devil wants all to have a tainted picture of God in their minds. We need to identify this extreme error and not help the devil. We are ambassadors of God.

 

[KingJ]

You are of your father the devil. This philosophy in particular is from Nietzsche, not Yeshua. Don't think you can slip it in without notice, I know one when I see one.

I gave a scripture to support my statement and have explained this view in post 37 above.

Your statement is ironic. Just I do not consider you a false teacher, just miss taught. But now you know the truth. A cute little baby is 100% innocent and sinless. No baby will ever go to hell.

This should be painfully obvious. Just absolutely insane that so many can believe such error. Many do not chew properly on their beliefs. Crazy stuff.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You are miss reading the chapters and once more not supporting your claim.

No, you are. This is like saying "money is the root of all evil" when the scripture actually says the LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

 

[KingJ]

No, you are. This is like saying "money is the root of all evil" when the scripture actually says the LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

Jonathan, you said those two chapters supported us judging angles, I asked you to explain how. I am being sincere. I have no clue how they support your statement.

You are going in circles. Just concede or answer the question.

Discussion forums work like this:

Question - Answer
Questionable statement - Explanation

Not, Questionable statement - you can't read - You know what I mean - No, You are... - Provide unrelated example of money...

You are being painful and just coming across as a someone who is unsure of their belief.