The Antidote For Predestination/Election Controversy

[Joe in Arkansas]

,Universalism is an emotion based theology.

The amount of scriptures that confirm that not all will be saved is amazing when studied.

Universalism always rests on a couple verses, devoid of the rest of scripture which then are twisted to mean what the emotion wants because the rest of scripture is not relied upon to interpret them.

These arguements always come with judgements against God and are emotionally driven.
"what kinda God would do that" " i wouldnt serve a God like that" etc...

Jesus in one chapter clearly gives us three witnesses that prove everyone will not be saved.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:


Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:


Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:


Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


It is clear that their worm will not die, and their fire will NEVER BE QUENCHED.

Dear Faith4Bride,
You have a mistaken belief that the First fruits (which is the church) will be the only fruits of the harvest. God will not let His fall harvest rot in the field. Have you never studied the feasts of the Old Testament and what they foreshadow? The scriptures you list are referring to the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. Christ is not speaking of the hell from church tradition. Plus, He is not being literal. He is saying that it is better to believe now than later. Later will be a much more trying experience to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

My understanding of scripture comes from scripture, not from my emotions. Plus, I have never studied "universalism" has you call it. My faith is based on scripture and not a prepackaged belief system. Try and find scriptures that support you Christian hell, not a garbage dump. I have studied and studied and there are none. The scripture you will probably use are badly mistranslated or meant not to be taken literally. There are no exceptions. Please read the triple witness of scripture that I just posted to RJ and respond to them. Why will you not accept them? Do you not believe they are God's Word?

May the Lord bless you in your studies,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Boanerges]

Just some thoughts:
A simple reading of these 2 verses show the flaw in that Universalsit doctrine:
2Th 1:8 InG1722 flamingG5395 fireG4442 takingG1325 vengeanceG1557 on them that knowG1492 notG3361 God,G2316 andG2532 that obeyG5219 notG3361 theG3588 gospelG2098 of ourG2257 LordG2962 JesusG2424 Christ:G5547
2Th 1:9 WhoG3748 shall be punishedG5099 G1349 with everlastingG166 destructionG3639 fromG575 the presenceG4383 of theG3588 Lord,G2962 andG2532 fromG575 theG3588 gloryG1391 of hisG846 power;G2479

If everyone is predestined for salvation no matter how they live what was the purpose of Jesus sacrifice? Shouldn't they just live like the devil and do what they want? This also precludes the need for preaching the Gospel as all will wind up saved anyway. This revelation will certainly save a lot of money on missionaries- LOL! Just kidding.
In Judas case it would have been better if he had never been born (Mat 26:24)- that does not sound like someone who will be redeemed.
Then of course you are left with a big issue- what about the unpardonable sin ( Mat 12:3132,Heb 6:4 -6)? If what yo believe is true they will be saved anyway and yet remain unforgiven. Do you believe unforgiven sin can stand in the presence of a holy God?

If one agreed that eternal life was but for an age (based of your view of the word eternal) then our salvation is limited.
The word used in the sciptures for eternal is AIONIOS and not AION

From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Even if I used your "translation" or substitution here I would have to believe that the Holy Spirit is only for an age:
Heb 9:14 How muchG4214 moreG3123 shall theG3588 bloodG129 of Christ,G5547 whoG3739 throughG1223 the eternalG166 SpiritG4151 offeredG4374 himselfG1438 without spotG299 to God,G2316 purgeG2511 yourG5216 conscienceG4893 fromG575 deadG3498 worksG2041 to serveG3000 the livingG2198 God?G2316

Mat 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Just some thoughts:
A simple reading of these 2 verses show the flaw in that Universalsit doctrine:
2Th 1:8 InG1722 flamingG5395 fireG4442 takingG1325 vengeanceG1557 on them that knowG1492 notG3361 God,G2316 andG2532 that obeyG5219 notG3361 theG3588 gospelG2098 of ourG2257 LordG2962 JesusG2424 Christ:G5547
2Th 1:9 WhoG3748 shall be punishedG5099 G1349 with everlastingG166 destructionG3639 fromG575 the presenceG4383 of theG3588 Lord,G2962 andG2532 fromG575 theG3588 gloryG1391 of hisG846 power;G2479

If everyone is predestined for salvation no matter how they live what was the purpose of Jesus sacrifice? Shouldn't they just live like the devil and do what they want? This also precludes the need for preaching the Gospel as all will wind up saved anyway. This revelation will certainly save a lot of money on missionaries- LOL! Just kidding.
In Judas case it would have been better if he had never been born (Mat 26:24)- that does not sound like someone who will be redeemed.
Then of course you are left with a big issue- what about the unpardonable sin ( Mat 12:3132,Heb 6:4 -6)? If what yo believe is true they will be saved anyway and yet remain unforgiven. Do you believe unforgiven sin can stand in the presence of a holy God?

If one agreed that eternal life was but for an age (based of your view of the word eternal) then our salvation is limited.
The word used in the sciptures for eternal is AIONIOS and not AION

From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Even if I used your "translation" or substitution here I would have to believe that the Holy Spirit is only for an age:
Heb 9:14 How muchG4214 moreG3123 shall theG3588 bloodG129 of Christ,G5547 whoG3739 throughG1223 the eternalG166 SpiritG4151 offeredG4374 himselfG1438 without spotG299 to God,G2316 purgeG2511 yourG5216 conscienceG4893 fromG575 deadG3498 worksG2041 to serveG3000 the livingG2198 God?G2316

Mat 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

Dear Boanerges,
You are right that I would say that aion or it's adjective form aionios means age or age-enduring. During the time of the writing of the scriptures there was no word that meant eternal or everlasting in the Greek language. That definition was added to aion at a much later date to help support the eternal hell doctrine. The word aion clearly means age if you would give it an objective study and its adjective form aionios cannot contradict that meaning. An age has a beginning and an end - it can never mean eternal or everlasting. There is no conflict with saying that we will have aionion life (life during the ages) or that the Holy Spirit is aionion. This does not mean that our life or the Holy Spirit ends at the completion of the ages. We will be given immortality that will continue on past the ages. I can see you went to a great deal of work to break the scripture out into the Greek but it means nothing since the definition meaning "everlasting" was never the original intent of the word. One thing I have learned, is that the translations of the scripture are full on bad translations, errors and in some cases, out right fraud. As Paul commanded Timothy, one must study and that means going back to the Greek and the original meanings.

You said:
If everyone is predestined for salvation no matter how they live what was the purpose of Jesus sacrifice? Shouldn't they just live like the devil and do what they want? This also precludes the need for preaching the Gospel as all will wind up saved anyway. This revelation will certainly save a lot of money on missionaries- LOL! Just kidding.

I have heard this line of reasoning many times before and I am always amazed by it. No one is saved "anyway". There is only one way to be saved and that is through Jesus Christ. All will come to repentance and faith in Christ. He is the only way. If anyone wants to "live like the devil", I can assure you that they are not at present converted and saved. Christ will change us all so that we have His law written on our hearts. We are drawn to Him out of love (not fear of hell) and we are changed from the inside out. When we are converted, we will produce the fruits of the Spirit and will no longer desire to "live like the devil". I have had many people tell me that if they are going to be saved "anyway", that they might as well live it up now. That only shows that their heart is not converted. They have not died to self and been reborn by the Spirit. There is only one way for Salvation and Christ will cause all men to seek it (as for hidden treasures) and find it in Him.

You said:
Then of course you are left with a big issue- what about the unpardonable sin ( Mat 12:3132,Heb 6:4 -6)? If what yo believe is true they will be saved anyway and yet remain unforgiven. Do you believe unforgiven sin can stand in the presence of a holy God?

The unpardonable sin is to sin against the Holy Spirit. It will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come (Kingdom age) but it will be forgiven in the Lake of Fire age. Since when does the "age to come" mean "never" as you believe? All this verse is saying is that if you sin against the Holy Spirit you will not be apart of the church and rule and reign in the Kingdom Age here on earth. But in the following age, it will be forgiven at the "last day" as I spoke of earlier.

Matt 12:32 Whosoever speakth a word against the son of man shall be forgiven, but whosoever speakth against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven hm, neither in this age, or the age to come.

May the Lord bless your study,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Faith4Bride]

Unleavened Bread Ministries - Ultimate Reconciliation of All

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Dear Faith4Bride,
I looked at your referenced website and must say that I have heard most of those arguments before and they just don't stand up to the light of scripture. The author twists and re-translates verses until they cough up the answer he wants to see. This type of study is an insult to an objective student of scripture and doesn't deserve any further comment.

Will no one address the triple witness of scripture I presented earlier and explain to everyone why each of those verses can't possibly mean that God's plan is to actually save ALL men as I contend. Please don't say that His plan is to save all men but mankind just won't go along with it. Mankind has no such power to overcome God's will. God is the potter and we are the clay.

Where are the verses that say that Christ will only save a few men? Where are the verses that say He is not the Savior of the world but of only a very small fraction? Where are the verses that say He will fail to save the world which is why He came in the first place as commissioned by the Father to do? Doesn't anyone see that since the church is called first-fruits of the harvest, that it stands to reason that there will be others to follow, just as the Jewish harvest feasts foreshadow? Where is the love and redeeming value in the Christian hell? Where is the mercy? Scripture says in Revelation that Christ will wipe away all the tears from our eyes - how can He ever wipe away the tears from my eyes if He is torturing my 3 sons in some fabled fire pit for all eternity for no redeeming purpose whatsoever? He will not be able to stop my tears as long as my love ones are burning and suffering. The true God of scripture will have mercy upon them and would even die for them if He has to in order to save them. Oh yeah, He did that already but I guess (according to church tradition) it just wasn't enough. Christ failed to save my sons and now He will wipe away my tears and tell me what??? That everything will be okay for them??? That my sons are suffering for a high purpose and then my heart will suddenly be filled with joy??? Doesn't anyone ever think about how hideous the doctrine of hell is? And you approve and delight in it??? The Christ that revealed Himself to me would never do such a thing. I love the Lord for His goodness, for His love for all men, for His mercy upon us even while we are yet sinners. He is patient, kind, and long suffering for His creation. He simply loves us and will never stop. He is not the monster that the hell doctrine makes him out to be. Which Lord to you know?

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Boanerges]

You are right that I would say that aion or it's adjective form aionios means age or age-enduring.

That is not what the Strongs said and not what I said.

From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
What does a simple Websters Dictionary say about perpetual?

Perpetual
PERPET'UAL, a. [L. perpetuus, from perpes, perpetis; per and pes, from a root signifying to pass.]

1. Never ceasing; continuing forever in future time; destined to be eternal; as a perpetual covenant; a perpetual statute.

[Literally true with respect to the decrees of the Supreme Being.]

2. Continuing or continued without intermission; uninterrupted; as a perpetual stream; the perpetual action of the heart and arteries.

3. Permanent; fixed; not temporary; as a perpetual law or edict; perpetual love or amity, perpetual incense. Exo 30.

4. Everlasting; endless.

Destructions are come to a perpetual end. Psa 9.

5. During the legal dispensation. Exo 29.

Perpetual curacy, is where all the tithes are appropriated and no vicarage is endowed.

Perpetual motion, motion that generates a power of continuing itself forever or indefinitely, by means of mechanism or some application of the force of gravity; not yet discovered,and probably impossible.

Perpetual screw, a screw that acts against the teeth of a wheel and continues its action without end.

The unpardonable sin is to sin against the Holy Spirit. It will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come (Kingdom age) but it will be forgiven in the Lake of Fire age.

There is absolutely no scriptural evidence for that.

Matt 12:32 Whosoever speakth a word against the son of man shall be forgiven, but whosoever speakth against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven hm, neither in this age, or the age to come.

The Age to come is Christ's return and eternal reign on this earth.

Trying to retranslate the bible to fit your interpretation can be a dangerous thing. A little knowledge of Greek and Hebrew can be a more dangerous thing. In fact some of this same doctrine you are espousing is common amongst the cult of the Jehovah's Un-witnesses ( no hell). Let us see what the bible translators have to say about this. These are men who read and wrote both Greek and Hebrew as easily as you and I would read a newspaper:

2Th 1:9

(ASV) who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

(Bishops) Which shalbe punisshed with euerlastyng dampnation, from the presence of the Lorde, & fro the glorie of his power:

(CEV) Their punishment will be eternal destruction, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.

(Darby) who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

(DRB) Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power:

(EMTV) These shall pay a penalty--eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might,

(ESV) They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

(Geneva) Which shall be punished with euerlasting perdition, from the presence of the Lord, & from the glory of his power,

(GNB) They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might

(GW) They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power.

(ISV) Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power

(KJV) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(KJV+) WhoG3748 shall be punishedG5099 G1349 with everlastingG166 destructionG3639 fromG575 the presenceG4383 of theG3588 Lord,G2962 andG2532 fromG575 theG3588 gloryG1391 of hisG846 power;G2479

(KJV-1611) Who shalbe punished with euerlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

(KJVA) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(LITV) who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His strength," Isa. 2:19

(MKJV) who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

(Murdock) For these will be recompensed with the judgment of eternal destruction, from the presence of our Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(RV) who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

(Webster) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(WNT) They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

That is a total of 21 groups of bible translators who completely disagree with your interpretation and doctrine so I think I will have to stick with them on this.

 

[Boanerges]

The idea that the early chruch did not believe in eternal hell is incorrect at best.

From the Interactive Bible website:

• 150 AD Second Clement "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5).
• 150 AD Second Clement "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (Second Clement , 17:7).
• 150 AD Justin Martyr: "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12).
• 150 AD Justin Martyr: "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (First Apology, 21).
• 150 AD Justin Martyr: "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (First Apology, 52).
• • 150 AD Justin Martyr: and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XIX)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: while we affirm that the souls of the wicked, being endowed with sensation even after death, are punished, and that those of the good being delivered from punishment spend a blessed existence, we shall seem to say the same things as the poets and philosophers. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XX)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: Nor can the devils persuade men that there will be no conflagration for the punishment of the wicked; as they were unable to effect that Christ should be hidden after He came. But if they believe that there is nothing after death, but declare that those who die pass into insensibility, then they become our benefactors when they set us free from sufferings and necessities of this life, and prove themselves to be wicked, and inhuman, and bigoted. For they kill us with no intention of delivering us, but cut us off that we may be deprived of life and pleasure. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. LVII)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire. (The Second Apology of Justin For The Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. I)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chap. II)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. For thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. VIII)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: And that no one may say what is said by those who are deemed philosophers, that our assertions that the wicked are punished in eternal fire are big words and bugbears, and that we wish men to live virtuously through fear, and not because such a life is good and pleasant; I will briefly reply to this, that if this be not so, God does not exist; or, if He exists, He cares not for men, and neither virtue nor vice is anything, and as we said before, lawgivers unjustly punish those who transgress good commandments. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. IX)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: "Trypho," says he, "I am called; and I am a Hebrew of the circumcision,.They affirm that the same things shall always happen; and, further, that I and you shall again live in like manner, having become neither better men nor worse. But there are some others, who, having supposed the soul to be immortal and immaterial, believe that though they have committed evil they will not suffer punishment (for that which is immaterial is insensible), and that the soul, in consequence of its immortality, needs nothing from God." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. I)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: when some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire; but others shall exist in freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief, and in immortality." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. XLV)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: Here Plato seems to me to have learnt from the prophets not only the doctrine of the judgment, but also of the resurrection, which the Greeks refuse to believe. For his saying that the soul is judged along with the body, proves nothing more clearly than that he believed the doctrine of the resurrection. Since how could Ardiaeus and the rest have undergone such punishment in Hades, had they left on earth the body, with its head, hands, feet and skin? For certainly they will never say that the soul has a head and hands, and feet and skin. But Plato, having fallen in with the testimonies of the prophets in Egypt, and having accepted what they teach concerning the resurrection of the body, teaches that the soul is judged in company with the body. (Justin's Hortatory Address To The Greeks, Chap. XXVII)
• 155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3).
• 160 AD Mathetes "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7).
• 177 AD Athenagoras "[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31).
• 181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14).
• 189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1).
• 189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming ... t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (Against Heresies, 4:28:2).
  [*]197 AD Tertullian "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3).
  [*]197 AD Tertullian "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (Apology , 44:12-13).
  [*]212 AD Hippolytus "Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3).
  [*]226 AD Minucius Felix "I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12-5:3).
  [*]250 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2).
  [*]252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will thee be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24).
  [*]252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "Oh, what a day that will be, and how great when it comes, dearest brethren! When the Lord ... [will] cast into hell evildoers and will condemn our persecutors to the eternal fire and to punishing flame!" (Letters 58:10).
  [*]307 AD Lactantius "[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding for ever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21).
  

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

That is not what the Strongs said and not what I said.

From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
What does a simple Websters Dictionary say about perpetual?

Perpetual
PERPET'UAL, a. [L. perpetuus, from perpes, perpetis; per and pes, from a root signifying to pass.]

1. Never ceasing; continuing forever in future time; destined to be eternal; as a perpetual covenant; a perpetual statute.

[Literally true with respect to the decrees of the Supreme Being.]

2. Continuing or continued without intermission; uninterrupted; as a perpetual stream; the perpetual action of the heart and arteries.

3. Permanent; fixed; not temporary; as a perpetual law or edict; perpetual love or amity, perpetual incense. Exo 30.

4. Everlasting; endless.

Destructions are come to a perpetual end. Psa 9.

5. During the legal dispensation. Exo 29.

Perpetual curacy, is where all the tithes are appropriated and no vicarage is endowed.

Perpetual motion, motion that generates a power of continuing itself forever or indefinitely, by means of mechanism or some application of the force of gravity; not yet discovered,and probably impossible.

Perpetual screw, a screw that acts against the teeth of a wheel and continues its action without end.



There is absolutely no scriptural evidence for that.


The Age to come is Christ's return and eternal reign on this earth.

Trying to retranslate the bible to fit your interpretation can be a dangerous thing. A little knowledge of Greek and Hebrew can be a more dangerous thing. In fact some of this same doctrine you are espousing is common amongst the cult of the Jehovah's Un-witnesses ( no hell). Let us see what the bible translators have to say about this. These are men who read and wrote both Greek and Hebrew as easily as you and I would read a newspaper:

2Th 1:9

(ASV) who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

(Bishops) Which shalbe punisshed with euerlastyng dampnation, from the presence of the Lorde, & fro the glorie of his power:

(CEV) Their punishment will be eternal destruction, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.

(Darby) who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

(DRB) Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power:

(EMTV) These shall pay a penalty--eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might,

(ESV) They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

(Geneva) Which shall be punished with euerlasting perdition, from the presence of the Lord, & from the glory of his power,

(GNB) They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might

(GW) They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power.

(ISV) Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power

(KJV) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(KJV+) WhoG3748 shall be punishedG5099 G1349 with everlastingG166 destructionG3639 fromG575 the presenceG4383 of theG3588 Lord,G2962 andG2532 fromG575 theG3588 gloryG1391 of hisG846 power;G2479

(KJV-1611) Who shalbe punished with euerlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

(KJVA) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(LITV) who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His strength," Isa. 2:19

(MKJV) who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

(Murdock) For these will be recompensed with the judgment of eternal destruction, from the presence of our Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(RV) who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

(Webster) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(WNT) They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

That is a total of 21 groups of bible translators who completely disagree with your interpretation and doctrine so I think I will have to stick with them on this.

Dear Boanerges,
I have never said that the lake of fire will not be a place of judgment - it will be. It will be mentally tormenting but it will not be a place of physical torture or of actual fire. Fire is merely is a symbol for judgment. God uses fire for judgment because fire refines and purifies. God's judgment is not like man's judgment. God judges people in love and for there own good. The book of Revelation was symbolized to John. Everything he was shown was a symbol - the book is not literal. When each person's judgment of fire is complete, they will have "learned righteousness" and then find Christ. They are only judged until they have "paid the last penny". Judgment for them is not eternal or everlasting. As I said before, aion and all its forms mean a period of time that as a beginning and an end, i.e. an age. This is completely consistent with scripture. The translators added the meaning of everlasting to aion and its forms to make it consistent with their hell doctrine. It doesn't take a doctorate to research this one Greek word and learn the truth behind the changes to its definition. I am not impressed by your long list of translations that support the hell doctrine. Over the centuries, if a scholar wanted to be accepted by the mainstream church, then they had to support its doctrines. I would expect nothing less of them.

Also, you said that Christ's reign on earth is eternal. He reigns for two ages - the Kingdom age (current earth) and then the Lake of Fire age (new earth). At the end of the Lake of Fire age, He turns the Kingdom over to the Father and His reign ends because all things have been restored - all enemies are under His feet. This scripture below describes the very end of the final age. It goes further out into the future than does the book of Revelation. It clearly shows us that Christ's reign only lasts until His mission to save the world is complete and death is no more.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation (the last day), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

If there are still unsaved persons at this point, then God could not be "all in all". The above verses describe the end to the wonderful and glorious work of God that has produced many sons & daughters for Him. The hell doctrine tries to make it into a nightmare that never ends for most of mankind, where people live in a dark and miserable world, completely void of love and hope. And according to the doctrine, all a person has to do to receive this future is to be unlucky enough to have died without hearing about Christ and accepting Him. What about the people who lived before Christ came? What about those who lived without hearing about Christ? What about those who died young and were not mature enough to make a decision for Christ? That future doesn't sound very fair for them. God loves each and very one of us all but He has blessed us all differently to suit His on purposes. But in the end, we will all be in the Kingdom of God. If you can't see this future in the scriptures I have posted, then showing you additional scriptures will not help either. God has you where you are and that is where you should be. My desire to share with you what I have been shown is born out of love for you and all who would read what I have written. God's plan for all of us will unfold in due time and we will be brothers in Christ at some future day. I wish you well on your journey.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas
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[Joe in Arkansas]

The idea that the early chruch did not believe in eternal hell is incorrect at best.

From the Interactive Bible website:

• 150 AD Second Clement "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5).
• 150 AD Second Clement "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (Second Clement , 17:7).
• 150 AD Justin Martyr: "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12).
• 150 AD Justin Martyr: "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (First Apology, 21).
• 150 AD Justin Martyr: "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (First Apology, 52).
• • 150 AD Justin Martyr: and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XIX)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: while we affirm that the souls of the wicked, being endowed with sensation even after death, are punished, and that those of the good being delivered from punishment spend a blessed existence, we shall seem to say the same things as the poets and philosophers. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XX)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: Nor can the devils persuade men that there will be no conflagration for the punishment of the wicked; as they were unable to effect that Christ should be hidden after He came. But if they believe that there is nothing after death, but declare that those who die pass into insensibility, then they become our benefactors when they set us free from sufferings and necessities of this life, and prove themselves to be wicked, and inhuman, and bigoted. For they kill us with no intention of delivering us, but cut us off that we may be deprived of life and pleasure. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. LVII)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire. (The Second Apology of Justin For The Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. I)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chap. II)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. For thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. VIII)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: And that no one may say what is said by those who are deemed philosophers, that our assertions that the wicked are punished in eternal fire are big words and bugbears, and that we wish men to live virtuously through fear, and not because such a life is good and pleasant; I will briefly reply to this, that if this be not so, God does not exist; or, if He exists, He cares not for men, and neither virtue nor vice is anything, and as we said before, lawgivers unjustly punish those who transgress good commandments. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. IX)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: "Trypho," says he, "I am called; and I am a Hebrew of the circumcision,.They affirm that the same things shall always happen; and, further, that I and you shall again live in like manner, having become neither better men nor worse. But there are some others, who, having supposed the soul to be immortal and immaterial, believe that though they have committed evil they will not suffer punishment (for that which is immaterial is insensible), and that the soul, in consequence of its immortality, needs nothing from God." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. I)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: when some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire; but others shall exist in freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief, and in immortality." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. XLV)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr: Here Plato seems to me to have learnt from the prophets not only the doctrine of the judgment, but also of the resurrection, which the Greeks refuse to believe. For his saying that the soul is judged along with the body, proves nothing more clearly than that he believed the doctrine of the resurrection. Since how could Ardiaeus and the rest have undergone such punishment in Hades, had they left on earth the body, with its head, hands, feet and skin? For certainly they will never say that the soul has a head and hands, and feet and skin. But Plato, having fallen in with the testimonies of the prophets in Egypt, and having accepted what they teach concerning the resurrection of the body, teaches that the soul is judged in company with the body. (Justin's Hortatory Address To The Greeks, Chap. XXVII)
• 155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3).
• 160 AD Mathetes "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7).
• 177 AD Athenagoras "[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31).
• 181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14).
• 189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1).
• 189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming ... t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (Against Heresies, 4:28:2).
  [*]197 AD Tertullian "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3).
  [*]197 AD Tertullian "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (Apology , 44:12-13).
  [*]212 AD Hippolytus "Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3).
  [*]226 AD Minucius Felix "I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12-5:3).
  [*]250 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2).
  [*]252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will thee be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24).
  [*]252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "Oh, what a day that will be, and how great when it comes, dearest brethren! When the Lord ... [will] cast into hell evildoers and will condemn our persecutors to the eternal fire and to punishing flame!" (Letters 58:10).
  [*]307 AD Lactantius "[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding for ever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21).
  

Yes, I agree that it did not take long for the wolves to come into the church. Paul prophesied that the corruption of the churches he started would happen quickly. However, there were plenty of early church writers who held on to Paul's teaching of salvation for all. But the corruption of the church quickly took over the mainstream of Christians and the doctrines of scripture were perverted or replaced by newly created doctrines. And I am sad to say, that those same false doctrines are still mainstream today. But that is in accordance with God's plan. Just as the Jews quickly corrupted the teachings of the old testament, so called Christians quickly corrupted the teachings of Christ. After all, this is Satan's world and He deceives the entire world (except for God's Elect). Satan even rules in the harlot church system of today (2Cor 11:14-15). Even so, this is still all in accordance with God's will.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Faith4Bride]

Rev 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[RJ]

Dear Faith4Bride,
I looked at your referenced website and must say that I have heard most of those arguments before and they just don't stand up to the light of scripture. The author twists and re-translates verses until they cough up the answer he wants to see. This type of study is an insult to an objective student of scripture and doesn't deserve any further comment.

Will no one address the triple witness of scripture I presented earlier and explain to everyone why each of those verses can't possibly mean that God's plan is to actually save ALL men as I contend. Please don't say that His plan is to save all men but mankind just won't go along with it. Mankind has no such power to overcome God's will. God is the potter and we are the clay.

Where are the verses that say that Christ will only save a few men? Where are the verses that say He is not the Savior of the world but of only a very small fraction? Where are the verses that say He will fail to save the world which is why He came in the first place as commissioned by the Father to do? Doesn't anyone see that since the church is called first-fruits of the harvest, that it stands to reason that there will be others to follow, just as the Jewish harvest feasts foreshadow? Where is the love and redeeming value in the Christian hell? Where is the mercy? Scripture says in Revelation that Christ will wipe away all the tears from our eyes - how can He ever wipe away the tears from my eyes if He is torturing my 3 sons in some fabled fire pit for all eternity for no redeeming purpose whatsoever? He will not be able to stop my tears as long as my love ones are burning and suffering. The true God of scripture will have mercy upon them and would even die for them if He has to in order to save them. Oh yeah, He did that already but I guess (according to church tradition) it just wasn't enough. Christ failed to save my sons and now He will wipe away my tears and tell me what??? That everything will be okay for them??? That my sons are suffering for a high purpose and then my heart will suddenly be filled with joy??? Doesn't anyone ever think about how hideous the doctrine of hell is? And you approve and delight in it??? The Christ that revealed Himself to me would never do such a thing. I love the Lord for His goodness, for His love for all men, for His mercy upon us even while we are yet sinners. He is patient, kind, and long suffering for His creation. He simply loves us and will never stop. He is not the monster that the hell doctrine makes him out to be. Which Lord to you know?

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

Dear Faith4Bride,
I looked at your referenced website and must say that I have heard most of those arguments before and they just don't stand up to the light of scripture. The author twists and re-translates verses until they cough up the answer he wants to see. This type of study is an insult to an objective student of scripture and doesn't deserve any further comment.

Seems to me that you do a pretty good job of "twisting and re-translating" yourself my friend!!!!

As for me and my house, we will worship the Lord and when he said: " Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born anew, he can not see the Kingdom of God " , I take his word for truth, not yours.

Jesus was clearly talking about spiritual matters here and spiritual is eternal and forever!! You can espouse how God has given you some devine knowledge of the future, where most have not; it could play out with a devastating consequence to someones true salvation.

We live in the here and now, again I say, for all those who may see and hear this thread, especially those seeking the truth, my suggestion is to please stick with the present and seek God and the resurrected spirit of Jesus Christ before you leave this physical plane. Then allow the Holy Spirit to give you discernment now and leave what happens after to God!!

 

[Boanerges]

Everything he was shown was a symbol - the book is not literal.

That is strictky your opinion.

When each person's judgment of fire is complete, they will have "learned righteousness" and then find Christ.

That again is simply your opinion and that one which was derived by re-translating the bible to suit your doctrine. That is the same practice used by major cults.
There is absolutely no scriptural support for the devil or the unbeliers who are condemned to the Lake of Fire being redeemed.

The translators added the meaning of everlasting to aion and its forms to make it consistent with their hell doctrine

I gave you 21 bible translations that say your Greek is in complete error. Read them again and perhaps it will help.

But in the end, we will all be in the Kingdom of God. I

That is unsubstaniated by any fair mind reading of all the scriptures and not the cherry picking method that led to your current conclusion

God has you where you are and that is where you should be. My desire to share with you what I have been shown is born out of love for you and all who would read what I have written.

.
I feel the same. If I am adamant about my presentation is is out of great concern for the spreading of such confusion and the possible error it might sew in the unlearned or young in the Lord. Personally I have a great love for you as I can see that while confused on this you are honestly seeking the Lord. You are in my prayers,
brother Larry.

 

[Boanerges]

Yes, I agree that it did not take long for the wolves to come into the church.

Ha Ha!- Good one! You claimed the doctrine of hell was foreign to the early church and I present you direct evidence - you call it wolves in the church. Polycarp was the direct disciple of the Apostle John and these are some of the very earliest church writings.
You claim this "error" creeped in with the Catholic church but I demonstrated that it was accepted doctrine before there was a Catholic church. Arbitrarily calling them wolves or false doctrine with no support is slander and/or ungrounded denial.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Dear Faith4Bride,
I looked at your referenced website and must say that I have heard most of those arguments before and they just don't stand up to the light of scripture. The author twists and re-translates verses until they cough up the answer he wants to see. This type of study is an insult to an objective student of scripture and doesn't deserve any further comment.

Seems to me that you do a pretty good job of "twisting and re-translating" yourself my friend!!!!

As for me and my house, we will worship the Lord and when he said: " Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born anew, he can not see the Kingdom of God " , I take his word for truth, not yours.

Jesus was clearly talking about spiritual matters here and spiritual is eternal and forever!! You can espouse how God has given you some devine knowledge of the future, where most have not; it could play out with a devastating consequence to someones true salvation.

We live in the here and now, again I say, for all those who may see and hear this thread, especially those seeking the truth, my suggestion is to please stick with the present and seek God and the resurrected spirit of Jesus Christ before you leave this physical plane. Then allow the Holy Spirit to give you discernment now and leave what happens after to God!!

Dear RJ,
My understanding of scripture comes having my "eyes and ears" opened in October 2005. I was raised in the Church of Christ as a child, then as a young adult moved to a non-denominational church. As my life went into my twenties, I attend baptist churches and other non-denominational churches. In my thirties, I was still searching to know God and a church where people actually love God and are not there attending simply out of fear of hell. In my forties, the Lord even took me to other denominational churches that I had never attended. My last church my wife and I attended was a pentecostal church and we thought maybe this was the place. And yes, all during those years I believed every mainstream doctrine in the church system - hell, trinity, free will, tithing, Satan's fall, Adam & Eve's fall, 7 literal days of creation, young earth, pre-trib rapture, and on & on. But God finally had mercy upon me at the age of 44. In October of 2005, He caused me to pray for a Muslim boy that lost his entire family in an earthquake in Pakistan. My heart hurt for that boy and I prayed and prayed for him. Not just because of his suffering but because he lived in a Muslim country and had no chance of ever knowing Christ. I truly believed his life was wasted and he would end up in eternal hell. But during my prayer, I questioned God has to why He wasn't going to save this boy. Why was I blessed to be in a country where I had all the time and opportunity to find Christ and he was not blessed and would be cursed in hell forever. I wanted answers on why God was going to do this to him and not to me. I cried for that boy and I would have died for him myself if my sacrifice could have save him. But I knew I had no such power. I was at a loss to understand why God did not love this boy and I ask him to explain it to me. Three days after my prayer, the Lord opened my eyes during my private study time to give me my answer. It was like reading the bible for the first time. I couldn't get enough. As the weeks went by, every doctrine I was taught in those 40 years of churches was crumbling. Scripture didn't support a one. My wife's eyes (mercifully) were opened on the same day. I now knew that the Lord loves that boy in Pakistan every bit as much as He loves me and has a wonderful plan for his life as well. I could clearly see in scripture God's plan for all men. It was like having scales on my eyes for 44 years and Christ removing them so that I could see for the first time. After that day, my life as never been the same. I finally came to the Lord in love of Him and not because I feared going to hell. My heart melted and the Lord gave me a new heart filled with His love and a love to follow Him. My life is changed forever. My wife and I do not attend any organized church - there are none that teach the Lord's truth. I have found that they are all nearly the same with a few minor doctrinal differences and with different styles of services. They are all daughters of the Great ***** of Rev 17 & 18. It took me a while to fully understand what had happened to me. Looking back I can see that the Lord was merely calling me out of the daughter harlot churches and appearing to me for the first time. At His appearing to me, my "old man" died and I was born again. Being dunked in water (I did that 3 times to no avail) never saved me. I was born anew by His grace & His work, done in His timing and by His hand. I cannot boast of anything. He directed all my steps that finally lead to Him.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

That is my experience searching and finding God. It took most of my life but my search for the hidden treasure of Him was worth it. I will never go back to the bondage and plagues of the harlot daughters. The truth of the Lord has set me free.

During the last 5 years since my conversion, I have met a number of people who have testimonies very similar to mine. The Lord is continually giving spiritual vision to His chosen and calling them out of the harlot churches to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. I am searching for those who can hear His voice calling them out, too. Many are called into the harlot churches but few are chosen to come out. The Lord is choosing and building His church. It is His work. We are but clay in the master's hand and He shapes us in the the vessels He chooses - some for honor and some for dishonor. But in the end, all will be in Christ and Christ will hand over the Kingdom the the Father and God will be all in all. Here is the patience of the saints.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Boanerges]

Like a poor copy of the origianl all these verses would have to be interpreted jost a "little off the mark" to get your view.

I Corinthians 15:22
22: For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
All are made alive at judgment- some go to the second death-
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Romans 11: 32.
32: For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
God indeed had mercy on all yet it is scripturally clear that all will not submit and partake of His mercy. God elects ot foreknows according to mans individual choice ( 1Pe 1:2 ) and based on that choice they that are to be saved shall.
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Titus 2:11
11: For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,
That is a Really Bad translation what a difference a minor twist can make. While I can give you 25+ examples of why that is an error let us look at just one:
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
Salvation appeared to all men not salvation of all men.
John 12: 47
47: If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
That is of course not what His work was at that time and yet He clearly comes to judge, reward and condemn all:
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Isaiah 45: 22-25
22: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
And there is the key- it is a call to those who will turn. Clearly there are those who will not heed the call of God:
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

23: By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: ..To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.'
Every knee shall indeed bow on that great day of judgment. Scripture declares that there are those who will fight Christ to the very moment of His return and there will be rebellion even after His thousand year reign (which leads directly to their eternal judgment at the White Throne).
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


24: "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed, all who were incensed against him.
All men shall come and those who know Him not will be indeed ashamed at the Great Day of the Lord's judgment.
25: In the LORD all the offspring of Israel shall triumph and glory."
We agree that God shall save Israel but all are not Israel that seem to be Israel:
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Honestly I would love to go through each and every one of these and demonstrate how you have taken them out of context but time is failing me. I will now reserve comment till the end of this post.

Isaiah 25: 6-9
6: On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wine on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wine on the lees well refined.
7: And he will destroy on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations.
8: He will swallow up death for ever, and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth; for the LORD has spoken.
9: It will be said on that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for him; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation."

Romans 14: 9-12
9: For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10: Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God;
11: for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
12: So each of us shall give account of himself to God.


I Timothy 4:10
10: For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Micah 4:
6: In that day, says the LORD, I will assemble the lame and gather those who have been driven away, and those whom I have afflicted;
7: and the lame I will make the remnant; and those who were cast off, a strong nation; and the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion from this time forth and for evermore.

Psalms 22: 27-29
[/SIZE]27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28: For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive. (This is only our flesh that perishes, not our created hearts, minds and souls in God)

Acts 17:
31: because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."



I don't see anywhere in these scriptures where we need to make a decision for Christ in order to be saved. These scriptures tell me that all people will be saved and that only the prophets, Jesus and the saints were his special spokesman during this age. That's why they were special believers as you can see in this verse below.



Like all God's marvelous gifts salvation =must be received by faith- only those who have the Son have life:
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.



I Timothy 4:10
10: For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

He is the Savior off all yet I plainly demonstrated through scripture that all will not come when He calls- it is the as many as, all who would come and the whosoever believeth.
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

And all will not have life:
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Perhaps later today I will be able to expound this in more detail and answer any questions. For now I have to go.
Many blessings in Jesus Name,
brother Larry.

 

[Boanerges]

I was still searching to know God and a church where people actually love God and are not there attending simply out of fear of hell.

One last nugget-
Some come by love, some by fear:
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

That is strictky your opinion.


That again is simply your opinion and that one which was derived by re-translating the bible to suit your doctrine. That is the same practice used by major cults.
There is absolutely no scriptural support for the devil or the unbeliers who are condemned to the Lake of Fire being redeemed.


I gave you 21 bible translations that say your Greek is in complete error. Read them again and perhaps it will help.
That is unsubstaniated by any fair mind reading of all the scriptures and not the cherry picking method that led to your current conclusion

.
I feel the same. If I am adamant about my presentation is is out of great concern for the spreading of such confusion and the possible error it might sew in the unlearned or young in the Lord. Personally I have a great love for you as I can see that while confused on this you are honestly seeking the Lord. You are in my prayers,
brother Larry.

Dear Larry,
Please read my last post to RJ. It will give you a better understanding of why I believe the things I do.

Also, the book of Revelation most certainly is not to be taken literally. John was shown visions signified by an angel (Rev 1:1). Everything in Revelation is symbolic of a spiritual truth. Christ spoke in the same way and kept His true message hidden from the masses. He chooses who will understand the message, not us. He then heals the spiritual blindness & deafness of those whom HE has chosen to understand. Christ is the great healer of spiritual blindness & deafness. He spoke quite a bit about this and frequently ended His talks with "for those with ears to hear" (Mat 11:15). We are all born in this life carnal and spiritually deaf and blind. Christ must come to us and heal us if we are to understand & believe His spiritual messages. Christ is clearly not wanting to save all mankind at this time. He is merely choosing and building His church now. He chooses us and not the other way around. That is why He spoke in parables, so that His true message would stay hidden from the masses.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Matt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:


<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


If Christ is trying to save the world at this time, why do you suppose He wants to keep His message hidden. Doesn't He want to save as many as He can? Why not heal everyone's blindness now so that they can make an inform "choice" for him as the churches believe man can do? The only answer that makes any sense is that Christ is only building His church now and it is a very select group of believers chosen by God. Then He will use His church in the Lake of Fire to judge all the unbelievers to bring about there conversion. It will all culminate on the "last day" of the great and final harvest of mankind symbolized by the Feast of Tabernacles. This is just one of the many truths hidden in scripture. I have not been given the power to heal anyone spiritual blindness so that they can believe it - only the Lord has this power to heal. I can only give an answer as to why I believe what I believe.



May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Ha Ha!- Good one! You claimed the doctrine of hell was foreign to the early church and I present you direct evidence - you call it wolves in the church. Polycarp was the direct disciple of the Apostle John and these are some of the very earliest church writings.
You claim this "error" creeped in with the Catholic church but I demonstrated that it was accepted doctrine before there was a Catholic church. Arbitrarily calling them wolves or false doctrine with no support is slander and/or ungrounded denial.

Dear Larry,
I did not claim that the Catholic church created the hell doctrine. In fact, I don't believe that I have even commented on the Catholic church in any of these posts. Paul said:

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Acts 20: 29 -31 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

The corruption of the church started immediately even with some of Paul's own converts. The only evidence we can use to establish true doctrine is from the original Greek writings. Church history is probably the worst place to look for truth.

May the Lord Bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Like a poor copy of the origianl all these verses would have to be interpreted jost a "little off the mark" to get your view.


He is the Savior off all yet I plainly demonstrated through scripture that all will not come when He calls- it is the as many as, all who would come and the whosoever believeth.
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

And all will not have life:
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Perhaps later today I will be able to expound this in more detail and answer any questions. For now I have to go.
Many blessings in Jesus Name,
brother Larry.

Dear Larry,
One quick comment (it hard keeping up with your posts), those who will not see life, do not see aionios life like the church will see. They will remain dead throughout that age. Please look at the Greek. But of course, you do not believe that aionios life is life in an age but is everlasting life, so I am sure you will not accept my understanding.

Also you said:
He is the Savior off all yet I plainly demonstrated through scripture that all will not come when He calls- it is the as many as, all who would come and the whosoever believeth.

All will come to Christ when He calls. He just is not calling everyone at this time. Most people cannot hear Him calling now but someday they will have the ears to hear him:

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John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is really easy to understand. Verse 35 says that the Father has given all things to Christ and verse 37 says that all that the Father has given Him will come to Him. That means everyone will eventually come to Christ when He calls them. Again:


John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


Why do you not accept these verses as truth? When do you suppose Christ is going to draw an American Indian to Him who lived and died a thousand years ago well before the Word of God made it to North America? I know when this American Indian will be drawn to Christ - it will be in the Lake of Fire age. This American Indian was not blessed to be chosen & drawn to Christ in this church age, but He will be drawn to Christ, the scripture does not lie nor does God's Word return to Him in vain. How & when do you believe this American Indian was/will be drawn to Christ? Please don't say that "all" in this verse does not really mean "all" men but only "all" men who are willing to respond. That argument is nonsensical and adds words to scripture. In fact, if you look up the Greek word translated "draw", it would be better translated "dragged". We are "dragged" to Christ against our carnal nature but go we will when Christ calls us.
And Christ will accomplish this work:


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Col 1:16-20 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


This scripture above makes it crystal clear that the "all things" that are reconciled to Christ does include all men because in the first part of the verse "all things" are defined for us - it includes everything or everyone in heaven, on the earth, whether they are visible or not, or whether they be thrones, dominions or principalities or powers. Then the scripture restates that all of this mentioned in the previous sentences were even created by Christ and it was created for Him. I can't imagine who or what this "all things" leaves out. But somehow, you don't believe that this same "all things" really includes most of mankind who was cast into the symbolic lake of fire. Are you being honest with yourself with this scripture? Why are you kicking against the pricks, Paul?


May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

You only demonstrated what I already understand very well. The problem is that you didn't read any of the scriptures above to show that ALL of God's created people are saved by the flesh sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I know that only a few saints heard the gospel and became sinless like Jesus so we could preach the same gospel as he did. But the way to this eternal life is only for those who were chosen before creation and created together as the Word.

There's a symbolic prophecy of 144,000 from the tribes of Israel who are set aside for God. These are the prophets, Jesus and us saints. We won't have an sexual relations in paradise because we're only one in Christ living in many bodies. We all got to experience speaking from the Word of God but only Jesus and us saints were made sinless so we could receive the knowledge of God, which is the truth. This is the only way possible we could preach the gospel looking for other chosen ones who still have genetic sins in their flesh. We must become sinless or we can't receive the truth. The prophets died as sinners so they didn't get the truth, even when they spoke for God.

These scriptures you're dragging into this thread are out of context for who you are. You don't have any understanding to use scriptures because you don't have the truth in you.

Dear Brad,
I am pleased that you believe all men will be saved. However, from your comments above there is much that I disagree with you on. I only have time to respond to one point you made in your 1st paragraph, however. Christ came to do many things when He came to earth, two of which are stated in John 10:10:

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Christ came for 1) to give us life and 2) to have it more abundantly. You are right in saying that at the cross, Christ paid the sin debt (which is death) for all men whether they accept Him or not. All men will be resurrected back to life in either the 1st or 2nd resurrections. Death will not hold any of mankind now. Christ has saved us from death but this is not the salvation commonly spoken of throughout the New Testament. Christ also wants to give us a good life, one that is free from ever sinning again. He has accomplished part 1 above - it's as they say a "done deal". But He has not stop us from sinning yet and that is what got mankind the death sentence in the first place. But He IS working on the 2nd part for mankind. That is the salvation that is commonly mentioned in scripture and that part is commonly misunderstood by most believers. Christ will cause us all to come to him, repent, receive His faith and Spirit, and in effect, be converted. Upon our resurrection (the church's), we will be like him, perfectly made in the image of God, free from committing sin ever again. As you can image, this is a long process. In fact, it will take Christ 3 ages to complete part 2 of John 10:10 for all men. But God is patient and will not grow weary of His work. He will accomplish all that He said in "due time" and then, all men will be saved. As of now, no one is saved since the 1st resurrection has not occurred yet. If you check the tenses of the Greek when it talks about salvation, it is speaking of something that is currently happening and is not yet complete. There is a great deal of translation problems with the word "saved". We are being saved but it not completed. After all, scripture says we must remain faithful unto death to qualify for the 1st resurrection. No living man is "saved" because they haven't met this "faithful unto death" qualification yet while they still live. However, as I said, we are saved from the hold of death now and that was accomplished at the cross.



May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas