The Antidote For Predestination/Election Controversy

Boanerges · Oct 25, 2010

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear Larry, Yes, I am saying they are all wrong. The majority is always wrong when it comes to knowing God and His Word.

You have the right to be wrong! I am saying you are 1000% wrong so I guess we are even- LOL!

But I am glad to say we can be in complete and total disagreement on this and both be completely saved.

Boanerges · Oct 25, 2010

Joe in Arkansas said:
It is better to follow Christ alone than to follow the many to the gate that leads to destruction.

In your doctrine it makes little difference since those who reject Christ and His Word by taking whatever path suits them will be saved anyway. To bad Jesus did not agree with you. But in any case I am going to exit this thread knowing full well your spurious doctrine does no eternal harm. Keep seeking the truth my friend.
Have a great evening and be blessed in Jesus Name,
brother Larry.

jiggyfly · Oct 25, 2010

Boanerges said:
I appreciate that my friend. I am not limited to the Strongs although I fail to see any bias in it demonstrated I do think it has it's limitations.
Perhaps you could give an example of it's inaccuracies?

One is concerning the Hebrew word olam and the Greek words aion and aionios.

It is mistranslated in the KJV and most English translations follow that same lead on much of it.

Joe in Arkansas · Oct 25, 2010

Boanerges said:
You have the right to be wrong! I am saying you are 1000% wrong so I guess we are even- LOL!

But I am glad to say we can be in complete and total disagreement on this and both be completely saved.

Dear Larry,
I know that we are in total disagreement and I never expected to change your understanding. If your understanding changes sometime in the future, it will be a work of Christ. Maybe then, you will recall our discussion and it will be of value to you. Christ is the Savior of the world. He is not the "potential" Savior nor is He the Savior of "some" of the world. He is in fact the Savior of the world to be testified in "due time". Knowing with certainty that everyone I know or ever will know will be a brother or sister in Christ someday (even if it is at the very end) gives me peace and joy. I can love them today and not feel sorry for them if they don't know the Truth yet. I don't grieve for them thinking they will be tortured in the fires of hell someday if they never hear Christ's call. He will call them at some point and they will respond. Just as Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus was without repentance, so is everyone's. He comes to us in His own timing, then we respond with repentance from the faith (a free gift) that He gives us. Paul's conversion was a pattern that Christ uses over and over again. Paul had no plans to seek out the truth of Christ as he traveled to persecute the church in Damascus. But it was Paul's time to be called and when Christ revealed Himself to Paul, Paul immediately called Him "Lord". When Christ comes for us, our "old man" will melt in His presence just as Paul's did. Christ came to me (spiritually speaking) and healed my blindness one day in October 2005. My world (like Paul's) was turned upside down in an instance. I lost all my church friends and even harmed my relationship with my mother. But the joy I found in knowing the true Christ was worth any price. I am blessed from His choosing. I have NOTHING to boast about - there was nothing good inside me to warrant Him coming to me. I was lost and He found me. I was naked and He clothed me. I was poor but now I am rich. I will continue down the road the Lord has given me to travel with the hopes that He continues to give me the opportunity to share the joy He has given me.

Take care,
Joe in Arkansas

RJ · Oct 25, 2010

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear Larry,
I know that we are in total disagreement and I never expected to change your understanding. If your understanding changes sometime in the future, it will be a work of Christ. Maybe then, you will recall our discussion and it will be of value to you. Christ is the Savior of the world. He is not the "potential" Savior nor is He the Savior of "some" of the world. He is in fact the Savior of the world to be testified in "due time". Knowing with certainty that everyone I know or ever will know will be a brother or sister in Christ someday (even if it is at the very end) gives me peace and joy. I can love them today and not feel sorry for them if they don't know the Truth yet. I don't grieve for them thinking they will be tortured in the fires of hell someday if they never hear Christ's call. He will call them at some point and they will respond. Just as Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus was without repentance, so is everyone's. He comes to us in His own timing, then we respond with repentance from the faith (a free gift) that He gives us. Paul's conversion was a pattern that Christ uses over and over again. Paul had no plans to seek out the truth of Christ as he traveled to persecute the church in Damascus. But it was Paul's time to be called and when Christ revealed Himself to Paul, Paul immediately called Him "Lord". When Christ comes for us, our "old man" will melt in His presence just as Paul's did. Christ came to me (spiritually speaking) and healed my blindness one day in October 2005. My world (like Paul's) was turned upside down in an instance. I lost all my church friends and even harmed my relationship with my mother. But the joy I found in knowing the true Christ was worth any price. I am blessed from His choosing. I have NOTHING to boast about - there was nothing good inside me to warrant Him coming to me. I was lost and He found me. I was naked and He clothed me. I was poor but now I am rich. I will continue down the road the Lord has given me to travel with the hopes that He continues to give me the opportunity to share the joy He has given me.

Take care,
Joe in Arkansas

Hey Joe,

Answer this one question:

Revelation 19

Hallelujah!

<SUP id=en-NIV-31003 class=versenum>1</SUP>After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:
"Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
<SUP id=en-NIV-31004 class=versenum>2</SUP>for true and just are his judgments.
He has condemned the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants." <SUP id=en-NIV-31005 class=versenum>3</SUP>And again they shouted:
"Hallelujah!
The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever."

What is the smoke in this verse and what does it mean for ever and ever?

Joe in Arkansas · Oct 25, 2010

RJ said:
Hey Joe,

Answer this one question:

Revelation 19

Hallelujah!

<sup id="en-NIV-31003" class="versenum">1</sup>After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:
"Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
<sup id="en-NIV-31004" class="versenum">2</sup>for true and just are his judgments.
He has condemned the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants." <sup id="en-NIV-31005" class="versenum">3</sup>And again they shouted:
"Hallelujah!
The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever."

What is the smoke in this verse and what does it mean for ever and ever?

Dear Larry,
To the best of my knowledge, smoke in this verse is symbolic of God's anger. The forever and ever should be translated "ages of the ages". God's anger against the false church lasts throughout the remaining ages and the false church is no more.

I believe the "great prostitute" in this verse is the Roman Catholic church who is the mother of harlots (protestant churches) in Rev 17:5. I believe this event happens upon the return of Christ for His bride, the church, which starts the Kingdom age here on earth. The Catholic Church will fall and God's anger against her will continue throughout the final ages, never allowing her to raise again.

That is what I believe these verses are saying, but I don't claim to understand every symbolic term in the book of Revelation - I just have not done an exhaustive study of it. I do understand a large portion of it though and I am comfortable with what I said about Rev 19.

I hope this answers your question.

Joe in Arkansas

RJ · Oct 25, 2010

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear Larry,
To the best of my knowledge, smoke in this verse is symbolic of God's anger. The forever and ever should be translated "ages of the ages". God's anger against the false church lasts throughout the remaining ages and the false church is no more.

I believe the "great prostitute" in this verse is the Roman Catholic church who is the mother of harlots (protestant churches) in Rev 17:5. I believe this event happens upon the return of Christ for His bride, the church, which starts the Kingdom age here on earth. The Catholic Church will fall and God's anger against her will continue throughout the final ages, never allowing her to raise again.

That is what I believe these verses are saying, but I don't claim to understand every symbolic term in the book of Revelation - I just have not done an exhaustive study of it. I do understand a large portion of it though and I am comfortable with what I said about Rev 19.

I hope this answers your question.

Joe in Arkansas

Thats not bad, you are very knowledgeable. This is the destruction of the Beast and the False Prophet which where personifications of institutions under the control of the Dragon, Satan.
Not only are the Institutions destroyed but also those who had the "Mark" of the Institutions ("Mark of theBeast").

This is their judgement and fate. The smoke is in reference to the Lake of Fire and symbolizes judgement for eternity....... For ever, no one saved in the end here!

Joe in Arkansas · Oct 26, 2010

RJ said:
Thats not bad, you are very knowledgeable. This is the destruction of the Beast and the False Prophet which where personifications of institutions under the control of the Dragon, Satan.
Not only are the Institutions destroyed but also those who had the "Mark" of the Institutions ("Mark of theBeast").

This is their judgement and fate. The smoke is in reference to the Lake of Fire and symbolizes judgement for eternity....... For ever, no one saved in the end here!

Dear Larry,
To learn what the symbols in Revelation mean you have to look else where in the scriptures to see how they were used previously - comparing "spiritual with spiritual". That is the only place to find what the symbols truly represent. In scripture, the false church is symbolized by a ***** and in Rev 19 that is what is shown as being destroyed - the false religious systems of the earth - not the people. The people are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire. In Rev. 22:14-15, those same people are shown to be on the New Earth outside the gates of the New Jerusalem:

Rev 22:14-15 <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Then, two verses later, Christ and the church make the call to them to come and drink of the water of life. If, as you believe, the church is the only ones saved, then to whom is the church calling to come and drink of the water of life??? Think about that for a minute.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Christ makes this same call in John 7 at the Feast of Tabernacles. Like I said before, the Feast of Tabernacles represents the final and great harvest of mankind on the "last day".

John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Deut 16:13-16 The feast of tabernacles shalt thou hold seven days, when thou hast gathered in the produce of thy floor and of thy winepress. And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy bondman, and thy handmaid, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are in thy gates. Seven days shalt thou hold a feast to Jehovah thy God in the place which Jehovah will choose; for Jehovah thy God will bless thee in all thy produce, and in all the work of thy hands, and thou shalt be wholly joyful. Three times in the year shall all thy males appear before Jehovah thy God in the place which he will choose, at the feast of unleavened bread, and at the feast of weeks, and at the feast of tabernacles; and they shall not appear before Jehovah empty: (Darby)

There are 3 feasts of the harvest, the unleavened bread or passover (Christ), the feast of weeks or first fruits (church), and finally the feast of tabernacles (rest of mankind). This follows exactly what Paul said in 1 Cor 15: 20-28:

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The consummation represents the Feast of Tabernacles when Christ and the church make their offer to come and join them.

Either you see the salvation of all mankind or you don't. It is the work of Christ as to whom He reveals His truth to.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

Joe in Arkansas · Oct 26, 2010

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear Larry,
To learn what the symbols in Revelation mean you have to look else where in the scriptures to see how they were used previously - comparing "spiritual with spiritual". That is the only place to find what the symbols truly represent. In scripture, the false church is symbolized by a ***** and in Rev 19 that is what is shown as being destroyed - the false religious systems of the earth - not the people. The people are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire. In Rev. 22:14-15, those same people are shown to be on the New Earth outside the gates of the New Jerusalem:

Rev 22:14-15  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Then, two verses later, Christ and the church make the call to them to come and drink of the water of life. If, as you believe, the church is the only ones saved, then to whom is the church calling to come and drink of the water of life??? Think about that for a minute.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Christ makes this same call in John 7 at the Feast of Tabernacles. Like I said before, the Feast of Tabernacles represents the final and great harvest of mankind on the "last day".

John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Deut 16:13-16 The feast of tabernacles shalt thou hold seven days, when thou hast gathered in the produce of thy floor and of thy winepress. And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy bondman, and thy handmaid, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are in thy gates. Seven days shalt thou hold a feast to Jehovah thy God in the place which Jehovah will choose; for Jehovah thy God will bless thee in all thy produce, and in all the work of thy hands, and thou shalt be wholly joyful. Three times in the year shall all thy males appear before Jehovah thy God in the place which he will choose, at the feast of unleavened bread, and at the feast of weeks, and at the feast of tabernacles; and they shall not appear before Jehovah empty: (Darby)

There are 3 feasts of the harvest, the unleavened bread or passover (Christ), the feast of weeks or first fruits (church), and finally the feast of tabernacles (rest of mankind). This follows exactly what Paul said in 1 Cor 15: 20-28:

 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The consummation represents the Feast of Tabernacles when Christ and the church make their offer to come and join them.

Either you see the salvation of all mankind or you don't. It is the work of Christ as to whom He reveals His truth to.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

Dear RJ,
Sorry - I meant my last post to be addressed to you and not Larry. However, Larry may be interested in my response too since He originally asked the question I was responding to.

Joe in Arkansas

soberxp · Oct 26, 2010

Boanerges said:
That comment was not directed to you my friend and I have not objected to anything you have posted. Keep up the good work.

Eze 33:2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

The Jewish calendar 《------check it out!and read!!!

10 Prophecies Fulfilled Today 《------check it out!and read!!!

do u know The Day of Atonement or Yom Kippur 10.10?
The Feast of Trumpets or Yom Teruah 9.1 Talk to God 《-------check it out!and read!!!!

I'm the watchman,my friend.I have seen the sword above befor the 10.10.2008
Heb
<TABLE class=forumline cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=row1 noWrap height=25>12:1 </TD><TD class=row1 width="99%">Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race(Gen 32:28) that is set before us, </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

The greatest wealth of my life《-------check it out!and read!!!!

Genesis - 创世记 32:28
kjv:And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
niv:Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

Am I being low? keying everything
or I played a low-key part?

wishing to keep a low profile ,but i can't now!

RJ · Oct 26, 2010

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear Larry,
To learn what the symbols in Revelation mean you have to look else where in the scriptures to see how they were used previously - comparing "spiritual with spiritual". That is the only place to find what the symbols truly represent. In scripture, the false church is symbolized by a ***** and in Rev 19 that is what is shown as being destroyed - the false religious systems of the earth - not the people. The people are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire. In Rev. 22:14-15, those same people are shown to be on the New Earth outside the gates of the New Jerusalem:

Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Then, two verses later, Christ and the church make the call to them to come and drink of the water of life. If, as you believe, the church is the only ones saved, then to whom is the church calling to come and drink of the water of life??? Think about that for a minute.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Christ makes this same call in John 7 at the Feast of Tabernacles. Like I said before, the Feast of Tabernacles represents the final and great harvest of mankind on the "last day".

John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Deut 16:13-16 The feast of tabernacles shalt thou hold seven days, when thou hast gathered in the produce of thy floor and of thy winepress. And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy bondman, and thy handmaid, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are in thy gates. Seven days shalt thou hold a feast to Jehovah thy God in the place which Jehovah will choose; for Jehovah thy God will bless thee in all thy produce, and in all the work of thy hands, and thou shalt be wholly joyful. Three times in the year shall all thy males appear before Jehovah thy God in the place which he will choose, at the feast of unleavened bread, and at the feast of weeks, and at the feast of tabernacles; and they shall not appear before Jehovah empty: (Darby)

There are 3 feasts of the harvest, the unleavened bread or passover (Christ), the feast of weeks or first fruits (church), and finally the feast of tabernacles (rest of mankind). This follows exactly what Paul said in 1 Cor 15: 20-28:

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The consummation represents the Feast of Tabernacles when Christ and the church make their offer to come and join them.

Either you see the salvation of all mankind or you don't. It is the work of Christ as to whom He reveals His truth to.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

Then, two verses later, Christ and the church make the call to them to come and drink of the water of life. If, as you believe, the church is the only ones saved, then to whom is the church calling to come and drink of the water of life??? Think about that for a minute.

I had to only think about it for a second my friend, you are wrong!

You are something else Joe! You are good, very good at what you do but misguided just the same. I would truly like to know, historically, how you came by this theology of yours. In my years of following God, I have never come across your theology before!

This is what I see in your Revelations 22: 17,

(Verse 16 The *angel, who showed John this *prophecy, came from Jesus. The *prophecy is a message to the *churches from the *Lord. The message was for those *churches to which John wrote. But it is also a message for the *churches of all ages. It is a message for the *church today.
God promised to send Jesus long before he was born. He came from the family of David (Isaiah 11:1, 10). Balaam saw a star come out of Judah. The star that he saw meant a ruler of *Israel (Numbers 24:17). Originally, this star meant King David. But David’s special descendant (person born into his family) would be much greater, like a much brighter star. Jesus is that special descendant of King David.
The morning star is a star that only appears at dawn. When we see it, the night is ending. With this star, there comes a new day. So, this star is like a definite promise that the new day is coming. Jesus will come at the end of this age. When he comes, he will bring in the new age.
Verse 17 The Holy Spirit and the bride invite people to come. The bride means the *church. The Holy Spirit works with the *church to bring people to Christ. Christ offers *eternal life to all who will come to him. Those who really want it can come. They can receive it. It is free. It is the gift of God. Nobody can work for or earn *eternal life. Now all can receive it by *faith in the *Lord Jesus. But when Jesus comes, it will be too late.
Verses 18-19 We must not add to this *prophecy. We must not take anything away from it. John has written in this book what the *Lord told him to write. We must not try to change what God has said. God will punish those who add to it. And he will punish those who take away from it.)

Joe, you take verse 17 and miraculously plug it into your ""last of days" age theory that you believe in and you couldn't be further from the truth! This is Christ's, through John, final summation of the book of Revelation for the churches of that day and is revelant to us now. As then, as well as now, Christ and the Chrurch are saying, in the present tense, recieve the resurrected life of Jesus Christ now, for when he comes it will be to late!

I would also re-read verse 18-19 over and over again my good friend!

Joe in Arkansas · Oct 26, 2010

Dear RJ,
You said that you only had to think about it for a second but you were not clear as to whom the Spirit and the Bride are speaking to??? The reason the scripture uses the term "bride" is because the marriage supper of the Lamb has already occurred. The church is complete and now married. Who can the church now be calling to if no more people can be saved at the 1st resurrection occurs? The remaining lost sheep who Christ said He would save of course. Where are the verses that say Christ's mercy will come to an end at some point in time? Why does everyone assumed it must end at our physical death - there are no scriptures that say this. Where are these unsaved people when the bride of Christ makes them this offer to come and drink? They are outside of the gates of the New Jerusalem on the New Earth. Those unsaved are in the Lake of Fire - not literal fire but merely a place of judgment outside the Kingdom of God. On the last day of the Great Feast they will be invited into the city to partake of the water of life (which is Christ). In the end, God will have many new sons & daughters:

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Rom 8:14 For as many that are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father as bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God...

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most high.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said "ye are gods"?

All of mankind will someday become sons of God, which means (as Psa 82:6 says) that we are gods. We are not the Most High God but we are His offspring.

As for your statement that Christ cannot save all of mankind; when you do so, you are making Christ out to be a sinner. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1John 4:14). The Son will not fail to save the world and "miss His mark". Does not the world contain all of mankind? You simply do not understand Christ's plan on how He will fully accomplish the mission the Father gave Him. Have you not ever studied the feasts of the Old Testament and understood what they represent? Christ is the wave sheaf offering. He is the first of the firstfruits and His church is the firstfruits. Nearly everyone misses the feast that represents the final and great harvest at the end of the growing season. The Feast of Tabernacles represents that time when Christ will bring in His entire harvest of mankind. The church is the firstfruits of the harvest, not the entire harvest. That is why we are called FIRSTfruits, meaning that more will come later. Christ's plan of salvation for mankind will continue into the Lake of Fire age as I have stated, when at the end of that age, the full harvest of mankind will be gathered in. As I said above, there are no scriptures that say Christ's offer of salvation ends upon our physical death. What scripture does say is that Christ's love and mercy never end. If they never end, why do most Christians believe that it will end for those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire? After they are judged, they will be redeemed just as the church was redeemed. Don't you realize that the church is being judged now and that those outside of the church are judged later? Do you not believe this verse:

1Tim 4:10-11 Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This verse plainly states that Christ will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. This truth of scripture will be testified to in "due time". All men are not being saved now, only the church. Christ will use the church to bring in the harvest of the rest of mankind. Why do you believe that He will fail? You have told me that God is Love and that Love never fails. From your statements above, you believe that Christ's love will fail most of mankind. Why do you not accept this scripture above?

How about this one:

1Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially those who believe. These things command and teach.

I have been commanded to teach that Christ is the Savior of all men and that He is especially the Savior of those that believe - not exclusively. That makes two groups identified here that Christ will save; those who believe now and those who don't. Does that leave anyone out. I don't believe it does. But why does this verse say that He is the Savior especially of those who believe now. It's because the church will receive the better salvation. They enter into the Kingdom of Heaven first and they will rule and reign with Christ during the Kingdom age. Those who don't believe now, will never be in the church and will never rule and reign with Christ. BUT they will be saved at the end. At the final and great harvest, Christ will call out to them:

John 7:37 in the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried saying if any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink.

As I have been saying, this offer is repeated again 5 verses from the end of the Bible. But this time, the bride is also crying out with Christ for all men to come and drink freely:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come, and let him that heareth say, come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Here is what scripture states as the end result of this invitation:

Phil 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in the earth and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord, to the glory of the Father.

Things in heaven & on and under the earth - that should be everybody. And notice that this confession glorifies the Father. It is a confession done out of love and not by fear or force.

Christ says that whoever comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

How many does scripture say will eventually come to Christ?:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So you see, Christ really is the Savior of the world and His love will not fail anyone. We merely have to wait for Christ to accomplish His plan which will be testified to in "due time".

It seems strange to me that those whom Christ has called to believe in Him should be believing and teaching that He will only harvest the firstfruits of His crop and that He will burn the rest of the harvest. Christ loves all men and has a plan that will bring in His full harvest of mankind to the glory of the Father. He is not willing that any should perish and God always gets what He wants - that is why God is God:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

We merely need to believe His Word. You asked where I came to my understanding; well, it comes strictly from scripture. I put aside the traditions taught to me by the churches and have started to believe only what God's Word says. I welcome you to join me in finding the hidden treasures of God.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

soberxp · Oct 26, 2010

Joe in Arkansas
<TABLE class=forumline cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=row1 noWrap height=25>1ti 2:1</TD><TD class=row1 width="99%">I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications,
prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, (
Notwithstanding have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth, if they continue lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty
)prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks,be made for all men;

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

1ti 2:2-6 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may
may
may may
may may may
may may may may
may may may may may
may may may may may may
may may may may may may may
may may may may may may may may
may may may may may may may may may
may may may may may may may may may may
lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

first!we should lead our life in all godliness and honesty then
god will ...........have all godliness and honesty to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
second!
if all man lead their life in all godliness and honesty
god will ...........have all man to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I'm Chinese mother tongue.....not english mother tongue... what a joy!
you blind!!!!
praise lord
May the Lord bless you,----sober cross path

MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

are you crazy!?!!!?!?!?!
MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RJ · Oct 26, 2010

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear RJ,
You said that you only had to think about it for a second but you were not clear as to whom the Spirit and the Bride are speaking to??? The reason the scripture uses the term "bride" is because the marriage supper of the Lamb has already occurred. The church is complete and now married. Who can the church now be calling to if no more people can be saved at the 1st resurrection occurs? The remaining lost sheep who Christ said He would save of course. Where are the verses that say Christ's mercy will come to an end at some point in time? Why does everyone assumed it must end at our physical death - there are no scriptures that say this. Where are these unsaved people when the bride of Christ makes them this offer to come and drink? They are outside of the gates of the New Jerusalem on the New Earth. Those unsaved are in the Lake of Fire - not literal fire but merely a place of judgment outside the Kingdom of God. On the last day of the Great Feast they will be invited into the city to partake of the water of life (which is Christ). In the end, God will have many new sons & daughters:

<OBJECT id=ieooui classid=clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D></OBJECT><STYLE> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </STYLE>Rom 8:14 For as many that are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father as bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God...

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most high.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said "ye are gods"?

All of mankind will someday become sons of God, which means (as Psa 82:6 says) that we are gods. We are not the Most High God but we are His offspring.

As for your statement that Christ cannot save all of mankind; when you do so, you are making Christ out to be a sinner. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1John 4:14). The Son will not fail to save the world and "miss His mark". Does not the world contain all of mankind? You simply do not understand Christ's plan on how He will fully accomplish the mission the Father gave Him. Have you not ever studied the feasts of the Old Testament and understood what they represent? Christ is the wave sheaf offering. He is the first of the firstfruits and His church is the firstfruits. Nearly everyone misses the feast that represents the final and great harvest at the end of the growing season. The Feast of Tabernacles represents that time when Christ will bring in His entire harvest of mankind. The church is the firstfruits of the harvest, not the entire harvest. That is why we are called FIRSTfruits, meaning that more will come later. Christ's plan of salvation for mankind will continue into the Lake of Fire age as I have stated, when at the end of that age, the full harvest of mankind will be gathered in. As I said above, there are no scriptures that say Christ's offer of salvation ends upon our physical death. What scripture does say is that Christ's love and mercy never end. If they never end, why do most Christians believe that it will end for those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire? After they are judged, they will be redeemed just as the church was redeemed. Don't you realize that the church is being judged now and that those outside of the church are judged later? Do you not believe this verse:

1Tim 4:10-11 Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This verse plainly states that Christ will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. This truth of scripture will be testified to in "due time". All men are not being saved now, only the church. Christ will use the church to bring in the harvest of the rest of mankind. Why do you believe that He will fail? You have told me that God is Love and that Love never fails. From your statements above, you believe that Christ's love will fail most of mankind. Why do you not accept this scripture above?

How about this one:

1Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially those who believe. These things command and teach.

I have been commanded to teach that Christ is the Savior of all men and that He is especially the Savior of those that believe - not exclusively. That makes two groups identified here that Christ will save; those who believe now and those who don't. Does that leave anyone out. I don't believe it does. But why does this verse say that He is the Savior especially of those who believe now. It's because the church will receive the better salvation. They enter into the Kingdom of Heaven first and they will rule and reign with Christ during the Kingdom age. Those who don't believe now, will never be in the church and will never rule and reign with Christ. BUT they will be saved at the end. At the final and great harvest, Christ will call out to them:

John 7:37 in the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried saying if any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink.

As I have been saying, this offer is repeated again 5 verses from the end of the Bible. But this time, the bride is also crying out with Christ for all men to come and drink freely:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come, and let him that heareth say, come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Here is what scripture states as the end result of this invitation:

Phil 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in the earth and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord, to the glory of the Father.

Things in heaven & on and under the earth - that should be everybody. And notice that this confession glorifies the Father. It is a confession done out of love and not by fear or force.

Christ says that whoever comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

How many does scripture say will eventually come to Christ?:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So you see, Christ really is the Savior of the world and His love will not fail anyone. We merely have to wait for Christ to accomplish His plan which will be testified to in "due time".

It seems strange to me that those whom Christ has called to believe in Him should be believing and teaching that He will only harvest the firstfruits of His crop and that He will burn the rest of the harvest. Christ loves all men and has a plan that will bring in His full harvest of mankind to the glory of the Father. He is not willing that any should perish and God always gets what He wants - that is why God is God:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

We merely need to believe His Word. You asked where I came to my understanding; well, it comes strictly from scripture. I put aside the traditions taught to me by the churches and have started to believe only what God's Word says. I welcome you to join me in finding the hidden treasures of God.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

Joe , Joe, Joe, this is exactly what I said:
"Joe, you take verse 17 and miraculously plug it into your ""last of days" age theory that you believe in and you couldn't be further from the truth! This is Christ's, through John, final summation of the book of Revelation for the churches of that day and is revelant to us now. As then, as well as now, Christ and the Chrurch are saying, in the present tense, recieve the resurrected life of Jesus Christ now, for when he comes it will be to late!"

Joe, What I said above is clear and, it's that , John is saying that the Bride (the Chruch) ( the saved) and Christ was conveying, in the present tense, to the Churches of John's day and, as well, it should apply to us today. This is in final summation to how we should ALL refelect on the Book of Revelation as it pertains to our lives now, not after Christ's return or the end of age as you wish it to be!

Also, I have asked in a previous thread that you answer the question:

If you believe so strongly as you do in your theology, what does the Bible say the purpose of Christ's resurrection was in relationship to that theology and where does it say it!

Also, where in the world do you get that the marriage of the Church and the Lamb has already occurred......that's mighty convient for you isn't it?

Joe in Arkansas · Oct 26, 2010

Dear RJ

You said:
As then, as well as now, Christ and the Chrurch are saying, in the present tense, recieve the resurrected life of Jesus Christ now, for when he comes it will be to late!"

There are no verses that say it will be too late to be saved if you are not in the church. There are verses that say a person can miss being in the church. Don't assume the church is the only group to be saved. That is only a tradition taught in the mainstream churches. It is not taught in scripture. The church is the FIRST fruits of the harvest, NOT the only fruits to be harvested.

You said:
Joe, What I said above is clear and, it's that , John is saying that the Bride (the Chruch) ( the saved) and Christ was conveying, in the present tense, to the Churches of John's day and, as well, it should apply to us today. This is in final summation to how we should ALL refelect on the Book of Revelation as it pertains to our lives now, not after Christ's return or the end of age as you wish it to be!

So you are saying that the Spirit and the church are telling the church to be saved??? That makes no sense. The church is already saved. Why do they need to be told to be saved again. The call is to the unsaved. And as I said before, in the sequence of Revelation, the church is already complete and they are now making the offer to the remaining unsaved outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. It is easy to understand when combined with what the 3 harvest feasts represent. Why do you think God's harvest of mankind stops with only the FIRST fruits? What does the Feast of Tabernacles (the final and great harvest of the year) represent to you?

You asked:
If you believe so strongly as you do in your theology, what does the Bible say the purpose of Christ's resurrection was in relationship to that theology and where does it say it!

I'm not sure what you are asking but I'll give it a try. Christ is the wave sheaf offering presented at the start of the feast of weeks. He is the first to be resurrected. After Him comes the first fruits harvest and then the harvest at the end of the year. Since Christ was sinless, we must be "in Christ" to partake of His salvation. Everyone will be "in Christ" whether a person is saved in the church or at the end of the harvest.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

You asked:
Also, where in the world do you get that the marriage of the Church and the Lamb has already occurred......that's mighty convient for you isn't it?

Of course, it has not actually occurred yet. But in Revelation, in it's sequence of events, it has occurred before the offer to the unsaved outside the gates of the city is made. Revelation is a book that reveals future events. That's all I was saying.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

RJ · Oct 26, 2010

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear RJ

You said:
As then, as well as now, Christ and the Chrurch are saying, in the present tense, recieve the resurrected life of Jesus Christ now, for when he comes it will be to late!"

There are no verses that say it will be too late to be saved if you are not in the church. There are verses that say a person can miss being in the church. Don't assume the church is the only group to be saved. That is only a tradition taught in the mainstream churches. It is not taught in scripture. The church is the FIRST fruits of the harvest, NOT the only fruits to be harvested.

You said:
Joe, What I said above is clear and, it's that , John is saying that the Bride (the Chruch) ( the saved) and Christ was conveying, in the present tense, to the Churches of John's day and, as well, it should apply to us today. This is in final summation to how we should ALL refelect on the Book of Revelation as it pertains to our lives now, not after Christ's return or the end of age as you wish it to be!

So you are saying that the Spirit and the church are telling the church to be saved??? That makes no sense. The church is already saved. Why do they need to be told to be saved again. The call is to the unsaved. And as I said before, in the sequence of Revelation, the church is already complete and they are now making the offer to the remaining unsaved outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. It is easy to understand when combined with what the 3 harvest feasts represent. Why do you think God's harvest of mankind stops with only the FIRST fruits? What does the Feast of Tabernacles (the final and great harvest of the year) represent to you?

You asked:
If you believe so strongly as you do in your theology, what does the Bible say the purpose of Christ's resurrection was in relationship to that theology and where does it say it!

I'm not sure what you are asking but I'll give it a try. Christ is the wave sheaf offering presented at the start of the feast of weeks. He is the first to be resurrected. After Him comes the first fruits harvest and then the harvest at the end of the year. Since Christ was sinless, we must be "in Christ" to partake of His salvation. Everyone will be "in Christ" whether a person is saved in the church or at the end of the harvest.

Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

You asked:
Also, where in the world do you get that the marriage of the Church and the Lamb has already occurred......that's mighty convient for you isn't it?

Of course, it has not actually occurred yet. But in Revelation, in it's sequence of events, it has occurred before the offer to the unsaved outside the gates of the city is made. Revelation is a book that reveals future events. That's all I was saying.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

First of all , kindly dont put your words in my mouth!

So you are saying that the Spirit and the church are telling the church to be saved??? That makes no sense
It sure doesnt make sense because I never said that!!! Of course the Church and Christ are saying this to the unchurched!!.... then and now as we read Revelations in the present!

I'm not sure what you are asking but I'll give it a try. Christ is the wave sheaf offering presented at the start of the feast of weeks. He is the first to be resurrected. After Him comes the first fruits harvest and then the harvest at the end of the year. Since Christ was sinless, we must be "in Christ" to partake of His salvation. Everyone will be "in Christ" whether a person is saved in the church or at the end of the harvest. I am convienced that you don't know what I am saying about the ressurection. You have no concept of the need to recieve the resurrected life of jesus Christ in this life, this physical real, now. This is a basic principle of the gospel that Paul taught: " The Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you don't recieve the Resuurected life of Jesus Christ now, there is no second chance, period! You must recieve the Spirit now before you die your physical death. If you do not recieve the "Second Birth now, when you die physicaly (flesh), you also die spiritually; the only connection with Christ after that is your judgement!!!

Two questions:
1. Where in the Bible does it explain YOUR interpretation of the resurrection.

2. Where in the Bible does it say it's Christ salvation? We partake in his inheritance,glory, holiness and righteousness but where does it say we partake in His Salvation? We do not share in his salvation. Because we share in his inheritance, glory, holiness and righteousness we are saved!!!

Joe in Arkansas · Oct 26, 2010

Dear Larry,

You said:
It sure doesnt make sense because I never said that!!! Of course the Church and Christ are saying this to the unchurched!!.... then and now as we read Revelations in the present!

Larry, I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth. I must have misread what you said. Without looking back, I thought you said that the Book of Revelation was written for and sent to the seven churches, therefore the Spirit and the Bride are speaking to the church and not to the lost. So from what you said above, you agree with me that the Spirit and the Bride are speaking to unsaved people. I contend that the Spirit & the Bride are speaking to unsaved people who are not in the church and have no opportunity to be in the church since they are in the Lake of Fire at the time of the offer. So I assume you believe that the Spirit and the bride are speaking to unsaved people now, in this present age before the church has been resurrected and become the bride of Christ. I can't agree with that understanding because the bride is not yet formed nor is it complete in this present age. The true church and bride of Christ is birthed at the 1st resurrection and as you & I know, the time available for entrance into the church has ended after the 1st resurrection has occurred. So for the bride to be speaking, the timing of their offer must be after the 1st resurrection. And since the unsaved people at that time are in the Lake of Fire, the offer is only for them. This is supported by what the Feast of Tabernacles foreshadows and Christ's offer at the Feast of Tabernacles in John 7:37-38 and also in 1Cor 15:20-28.

You said:
I am convienced that you don't know what I am saying about the ressurection. You have no concept of the need to recieve the resurrected life of jesus Christ in this life, this physical real, now. This is a basic principle of the gospel that Paul taught: " The Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you don't recieve the Resuurected life of Jesus Christ now, there is no second chance, period! You must recieve the Spirit now before you die your physical death. If you do not recieve the "Second Birth now, when you die physicaly (flesh), you also die spiritually; the only connection with Christ after that is your judgement!!!

I understand that all is of Christ. That is why we must be "in Christ". When we are "in Christ", we have His faith, death, burial and resurrection. We are saved by being in Christ, there is no other way. Anything that is outside of Christ is lost. You said that there is "no second chance, period". First of all, our salvation is not by "chance", it is by the will and power of God who does the saving and He will not fail. Secondly, there are no scriptures that say the offer of entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven ends upon our physical death; entrance into the church, yes but not entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. You are misunderstanding the scriptures that deal with judgment. Everyone (including the church) must be judged prior to entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. The church is judged now in this physical life:

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin atthe house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The lost are judged in the Lake of Fire. After we are judged, we learn righteousness and are purified and refined as gold is refined in fire.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

1Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

That is why judgment is necessary and why judgment is considered good and loving. Judgment has a redeeming purpose. If you are a father, when you judge your children, is it not for correcting their behavior? God loves us and will judge us all too so that we will all be made righteous just as He is. He will judge the sin out of us all (until we have paid the last penny). So all the scriptures that show people going off to destruction or judgment is for their betterment. God would never hurt anyone if it was not out of love and for the individual's own good. Christ loves His enemies. So instead of harming them as the church teaches in the fires of hell, God is actually doing good to them by judging them to produce righteous people. That is love - to take an enemy and do good to them. What good is there in the christian tradition of eternal punishment? What is the redeeming value of it? It is completely contradictory with God's character and with His Word. Can't you see that? To be a God of love, it is absolutely necessary that God save everyone. If one person is lost, then God is a failure for that person. That is one of the reasons I am positive that God won't fail in His mission to save the world. He never fails to do what He sets out to do.

You asked:
Two questions:
1. Where in the Bible does it explain YOUR interpretation of the resurrection.

I have no idea what you are asking. Please be specific as to what you believe my interpretation of the resurrection is.

2. Where in the Bible does it say it's Christ salvation? We partake in his inheritance,glory, holiness and righteousness but where does it say we partake in His Salvation? We do not share in his salvation. Because we share in his inheritance, glory, holiness and righteousness we are saved!!!

As I said above, everything is of Christ including his salvation:

Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

There are several other verses that state it is "his salvation", but this one verse above should prove my point.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

As it says above, everything will be in Christ. Everything we have is because it came from Him - His salvation, faith, mercy, love etc. This whole creation is Christ's. It was made by Him and for Him and in Him all things consist. Of course, it is His salvation that we share in. I don't understand what point you are trying to make with this question.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

soberxp · Oct 27, 2010

Joe in Arkansas

vi.

He might get here in time, but I can't be sure.

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n.

Might is right -- that is the logic of imperialism.

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http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Eph 1.9-10

Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he

____M____I____G____H____T____

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gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

in him and in christ who is the law,and that can be meaning the judgement and salvation at the same time.

the same time

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<TABLE class=forumline cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=row1 noWrap height=25>Rev 22:13 </TD><TD class=row1 width="99%">I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

the same time

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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

“For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12)

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you can't take the place of god, and tell everyone:"you have been saved!"
you can't take the place of anyone who made their choice.
how can you say that ?
you are not believe in the god nor Jesus,you are believe in yourself!

will drew all men unto Jesus! that is MAT 24:14[kjv]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

FIRST:

will drew all men
shall be preached in all the world

SECOND:

will drew all men
for a witness unto all nations

and then shall the end come.

bro. in bible..the church meaning the people who preach gospel,nor the "building church".
when you talking about the Church,you are talking about bro and sis who call themself in Christ.
(cuz they are the bone of the Church)
(The Church are the body of Christ)

Jesus said about the body of Christ
<TABLE class=forumline cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=row2 noWrap height=25>Mat 5:28 </TD><TD class=row2 width="99%">But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. </TD></TR><TR><TD class=row1 noWrap height=25>Mat 5:29 </TD><TD class=row1 width="99%">And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=forumline cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=row2 noWrap height=25>Mat 5:30</TD><TD class=row2 width="99%">And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=forumline cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=row1 noWrap height=25>Rom 11:21 </TD><TD class=row1 width="99%">For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. </TD></TR><TR><TD class=row2 noWrap height=25>Rom 11:22 </TD><TD class=row2 width="99%">Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

...................................

<TABLE class=forumline cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=row1 noWrap height=25>Rom 11:33 </TD><TD class=row1 width="99%">O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! </TD></TR><TR><TD class=row2 noWrap height=25>Rom 11:34 </TD><TD class=row2 width="99%">For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? </TD></TR><TR><TD class=row1 noWrap height=25>Rom 11:35 </TD><TD class=row1 width="99%">Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? </TD></TR><TR><TD class=row2 noWrap height=25>Rom 11:36 </TD><TD class=row2 width="99%">For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
no man！ no one! except Jesus who is son of god and the image of god.

。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。

<TABLE class=forumline cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=row1 noWrap height=25>太 19:11 </TD><TD class=row1 style="FONT-SIZE: 14px" width="99%">耶稣说：“这话不是人都能领受的，惟独赐给谁，谁才能领受。
[kjv]But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

</TD></TR><TR><TD class=row2 noWrap height=25>徒 17:11 </TD><TD class=row2 style="FONT-SIZE: 14px" width="99%">这地方的人贤于帖撒罗尼迦的人，甘心领受这道，天天考查圣经，要晓得这道是与不是。
[kjv]These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

</TD></TR><TR><TD class=row1 noWrap height=25>林前 2:12 </TD><TD class=row1 style="FONT-SIZE: 14px" width="99%">我们所领受的，并不是世上的灵，乃是从　神来的灵，叫我们能知道　神开恩赐给我们的事。
[kjv]Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

</TD></TR><TR><TD class=row2 noWrap height=25>林前 4:7 </TD><TD class=row2 style="FONT-SIZE: 14px" width="99%">使你与人不同的是谁呢？你有什么不是领受的呢？若是领受的，为何自夸，仿佛不是领受的呢？
[kjv]For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

</TD></TR><TR><TD class=row1 noWrap height=25>加 1:12 </TD><TD class=row1 style="FONT-SIZE: 14px" width="99%">因为我不是从人领受的，也不是人教导我的，乃是从耶稣基督启示来的。
[kjv]For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

RJ · Oct 27, 2010

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear Larry,

You said:
It sure doesnt make sense because I never said that!!! Of course the Church and Christ are saying this to the unchurched!!.... then and now as we read Revelations in the present!

Larry, I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth. I must have misread what you said. Without looking back, I thought you said that the Book of Revelation was written for and sent to the seven churches, therefore the Spirit and the Bride are speaking to the church and not to the lost. So from what you said above, you agree with me that the Spirit and the Bride are speaking to unsaved people. I contend that the Spirit & the Bride are speaking to unsaved people who are not in the church and have no opportunity to be in the church since they are in the Lake of Fire at the time of the offer. So I assume you believe that the Spirit and the bride are speaking to unsaved people now, in this present age before the church has been resurrected and become the bride of Christ. I can't agree with that understanding because the bride is not yet formed nor is it complete in this present age. The true church and bride of Christ is birthed at the 1st resurrection and as you & I know, the time available for entrance into the church has ended after the 1st resurrection has occurred. So for the bride to be speaking, the timing of their offer must be after the 1st resurrection. And since the unsaved people at that time are in the Lake of Fire, the offer is only for them. This is supported by what the Feast of Tabernacles foreshadows and Christ's offer at the Feast of Tabernacles in John 7:37-38 and also in 1Cor 15:20-28.

You said:
I am convienced that you don't know what I am saying about the ressurection. You have no concept of the need to recieve the resurrected life of jesus Christ in this life, this physical real, now. This is a basic principle of the gospel that Paul taught: " The Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you don't recieve the Resuurected life of Jesus Christ now, there is no second chance, period! You must recieve the Spirit now before you die your physical death. If you do not recieve the "Second Birth now, when you die physicaly (flesh), you also die spiritually; the only connection with Christ after that is your judgement!!!

I understand that all is of Christ. That is why we must be "in Christ". When we are "in Christ", we have His faith, death, burial and resurrection. We are saved by being in Christ, there is no other way. Anything that is outside of Christ is lost. You said that there is "no second chance, period". First of all, our salvation is not by "chance", it is by the will and power of God who does the saving and He will not fail. Secondly, there are no scriptures that say the offer of entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven ends upon our physical death; entrance into the church, yes but not entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. You are misunderstanding the scriptures that deal with judgment. Everyone (including the church) must be judged prior to entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. The church is judged now in this physical life:

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin atthe house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The lost are judged in the Lake of Fire. After we are judged, we learn righteousness and are purified and refined as gold is refined in fire.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

1Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

That is why judgment is necessary and why judgment is considered good and loving. Judgment has a redeeming purpose. If you are a father, when you judge your children, is it not for correcting their behavior? God loves us and will judge us all too so that we will all be made righteous just as He is. He will judge the sin out of us all (until we have paid the last penny). So all the scriptures that show people going off to destruction or judgment is for their betterment. God would never hurt anyone if it was not out of love and for the individual's own good. Christ loves His enemies. So instead of harming them as the church teaches in the fires of hell, God is actually doing good to them by judging them to produce righteous people. That is love - to take an enemy and do good to them. What good is there in the christian tradition of eternal punishment? What is the redeeming value of it? It is completely contradictory with God's character and with His Word. Can't you see that? To be a God of love, it is absolutely necessary that God save everyone. If one person is lost, then God is a failure for that person. That is one of the reasons I am positive that God won't fail in His mission to save the world. He never fails to do what He sets out to do.

You asked:
Two questions:
1. Where in the Bible does it explain YOUR interpretation of the resurrection.

I have no idea what you are asking. Please be specific as to what you believe my interpretation of the resurrection is.

2. Where in the Bible does it say it's Christ salvation? We partake in his inheritance,glory, holiness and righteousness but where does it say we partake in His Salvation? We do not share in his salvation. Because we share in his inheritance, glory, holiness and righteousness we are saved!!!

As I said above, everything is of Christ including his salvation:

Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

There are several other verses that state it is "his salvation", but this one verse above should prove my point.

Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

As it says above, everything will be in Christ. Everything we have is because it came from Him - His salvation, faith, mercy, love etc. This whole creation is Christ's. It was made by Him and for Him and in Him all things consist. Of course, it is His salvation that we share in. I don't understand what point you are trying to make with this question.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

With all do respect to you and others still reading, which I doubt by now that most have the ambition to do so, this is my last response to this thread.

You are confused, that I am sure. By the way, I am not Larry so, I don't know who you think you are talking to!

Your meaning of resurrection and mine differ greatly.

I believe that the cross forgives only and the resurrection gives eternal life only. Salvation is dependent on both. The Bible is distinct about about the "Dead in Christ" being raised in the future; I will leave that up to God how he determines what ancients, before Christ, are raised up. The Bible says nothing about the " Dead not in Christ" being raised up because it won't happen.

I live in the New Testament and for me, Jesus died on the cross for the sins of all. Only those who have recieved the resurrection, in this life, ( who are in Christ and he in them) will have eternal life. In the New Covenant of Grace, recieving the resurrected life of Christ happens only while you are still physically alive in this world. The Bible says: "Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost." This is Paul explaining the effects of the resurrection on the saved who have sinced died their physical death. If there WAS ACTUALLY no resurrection, then we are all dead in our sins. NOTICE, Paul says above: without the resurrection, "Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost." ......" THOSE ASLEEP IN CHRIST".
It is only those who die " In Christ" that are raised. You never see anything about those "Alseep out of Christ" or "Those asleep not in Christ" being raised because it will not happen but, only in your vivid imagination!

Joe in Arkansas · Oct 27, 2010

Dear RJ,
I'm sorry I mistakenly called you Larry in my last post to you.

Since you are not going to post any further, I will not expect you to answer my questions below but merely think about them.

You have not responded to most of my questions or verses that I posted. Is your lack of response to those questions and verses do to your lack of scriptural support to give me a sensible answer?

Are you believing that God tortures His children (forever as you believe) in fire for no reason at all but to hurt them like no one has ever hurt them before? Can there be any other reason? Do you have any other reason? Is mankind better parents than God??? At least mankind's good parents punish their own children to correct their behavior but your doctrine of hell says God will punish most of His children just to do severe harm to them; that He has no redeeming or corrective purpose in mind for doing this punishment. The doctrine of hell that you support makes God out to be the worst monster of all time. Being forever tortured in hell for the sole purpose of doing unimaginable harm to an individual is what Satan might do to someone if he had the power to do it. The God of scripture would NEVER do such a thing. Where is the love in burning someone in fire for the sole purpose of making them suffer forever, on and on, never ending? Can you love a God who would do this to one of your children (assuming you are a father)? Remember, this torture of your child never ends. I could never love a god like this!! How can you bear to even think about what God is doing to your child in that fire? And the mainstream churches call this justice??? These people who you say go to hell may have lived a reasonably good life by human standards, never harming anyone or living like a criminal but still they just never felt that they could love a God like the churches proclaim. So their punishment for this is to be eternally tortured in fire!!?? Why do you want to follow a God like that? When I read the scriptures, I read of a God of love and mercy; a God that loves His enemies and does good to them; a God that forgives even when we are yet sinners. That God would find a way for His love to save all men and that is the God proclaimed by the scriptures.

You said,
The Bible is distinct about about the "Dead in Christ" being raised in the future; I will leave that up to God how he determines what ancients, before Christ, are raised up. The Bible says nothing about the " Dead not in Christ" being raised up because it won't happen.

Even you (as a lot of believers like you do) have to come up with an extra-biblical way to make it a little more fairer for people that lived and died (your ancients) prior to Christ. What about the people who lived after Christ but just never heard of Him? What about children who died young? Do you have a way for it to be fair for them too? When you can understand and accept the truth of scripture, the way for all of us is clear as I have laid out. And that way goes through Jesus Christ who will in no wise cast us out, to be testified to in "due time".

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> 1Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

And these scriptures:

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

These two scriptures make it impossible for God to fail for even one person. If He does, these scriptures are lies. The Father has given all things to Christ and these same all things will come to Christ and He will no cast them away. Who can that leave out??? If you won't believe just the two simple scriptures, you would not believe the dozens more that I could present to you.

The doctrine of hell is the most hideous thing the mind of man has ever invented. Can you possibly think of anything worse that could ever be done to a person? I can't. Even the serial killers that torture their victims can only do so for a short time (until they die). But the doctrine of hell says God will torture them forever because He won't allow them to die. How sick is that?

I hope you reconsider your position and start looking for the God of love and mercy that the scriptures proclaim.

I wish you the peace that the love of God gives,

Joe in Arkansas

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