The Church and its place in the Tribulation

[Admon Mikha'el]

do you have any scripture to support this, the rapture happens at the end of tribulation when the elect are gather up. Not one place in scripture says the rapture happens before tribulation not one place. you can read into scripture and speculate and make it say what you want but NOT one place says the rapture happens before tribuatlion, but scriptures does say the gathering of the elect happens after tribulation

furthermore are belief on the timing of the rapture has NOTHING to do with weather or not we will be raptured, why would anyone say such a thing?

Dave Don't confuse the rapture with the second coming...That's a common mistake among Christians....At the rapture Jesus does not touch the Earth...He meets His Bride in the air... 1 Thessalonians 4:17 ... 1 Corinthians 15:52 .........At the second coming Jesus comes to Earth....His feet touch the Earth, and stay there...Mark 13:24-27... JUDE 14-15 The events that occur in these two happenings are not the same....In the first...The bride is caught up to meet him in the air, In the second event the saints are gathered together into one place, not caught up...Why would Jesus catch up His saints into the air but stay on the Earth Himself? In both cases He brought His saints to where He was... In the air....then on the Earth... The fact is...The bride is caught up at the rapture before the tribulation....The Christians who are NOT ready will go through the tribulation period and will be gathered to Him when He comes back to the Earth.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Ahhh , but you are . Forced . To a degree to obey God. Not to recieve the Mark of the Beast. You do it at your own pearl.

And know, it will be the toughest decision you will ever make as a Christian.

On the one hand, you will have God's Word. And on the other, the starvation of your family, your children crying.

It will not avail you to try being the sacrificial lamb in this matter either. As those who accept will be separated from those who dont.

This is why its so important to be prepared. Both in heart and mind.

There is one more thing , about the passages, pertaining to the Mark of the Beast. They were written solely for the Christians.

In contrast, because of your faith. There will be great miracles happening daily. God will feed His own.

These Remenant will be on fire for God.

Have you ever wondered what was ment where it is written . Fire will come from the mouths of The Two Witnesses . It is the Fire of the Word of God.

Then we had better make that decision today my friend....You need to be able to let go of your children when the time comes...You make the choice now! Don't wait until they have your kids by the neck and are choking them...You decide now to let them go to the Lord. And You decide that you will go to the Lord before you choose Satans way. Do It now.
But No...The choice is always yours...When it comes down to it...YOU CHOOSE....Will you follow Jesus or the world....The choice is no different now than it is when your kids lives are at stake.

 

[PloughBoy]

Then we had better make that decision today my friend....You need to be able to let go of your children when the time comes...You make the choice now! Don't wait until they have your kids by the neck and are choking them...You decide now to let them go to the Lord. And You decide that you will go to the Lord before you choose Satans way. Do It now.
But No...The choice is always yours...When it comes down to it...YOU CHOOSE....Will you follow Jesus or the world....The choice is no different now than it is when your kids lives are at stake.

Depends how you view the "Doctrine of Free will". Some of us believe what the Bible teaches about being a "slave unto sin" and being" a slave unto Jesus Christ". If then a slave, you are own, and you obey your master until you have been sold to a new master. So in essence a slave does not choose but lives in "Bondage" to his owner. The states when have been sold unto sin and In living in ":the Bondage of SIN". So your desirer is to your owner, and him you will obey. So then you will choose the way of your owner because you are "BOUND". and if you do not obey your master you living in "Rebellion". If Rebellion, the LAW has sentence you to death!~

If God does not choose us or choose our children. ain't nothing we can do, but "HOPE". "For Faith is the essence of what we "HOPE" for, and a proof of what we do not see".

For GOD does know the essence of "our" hearts, so let us keep that "HOPE" a live, and not let its fires burn out.

 

[B-A-C]

How do you interpret these verses?

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 1: 7; He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

2Cor 5:14; For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Cor 5:15; and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf.

If God wants "all" to be saved, and Jesus died for "all". Is it possible God chose us all. Some of us simply don't accept Him.

1Pet 3:18; For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

How do you interpret these verses?

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 1: 7; He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

2Cor 5:14; For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Cor 5:15; and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf.

If God wants "all" to be saved, and Jesus died for "all". Is it possible God chose us all. Some of us simply don't accept Him.

I don't know who you are talking to, my friend, but its interesting how all of these verses say what God wants but none of them leave YOUR choice out of the equation.

 

[Dave M]

Dave I did not say that some Christians are awake...but the majority of Christians are not..They are asleep...The majority of Christians are compromising with the world, to make a living, to live quietly and so on...Watching TV programs that even the lost would not watch, compromising their values for the sake of convenience

yes indeed I agree, that is what Jesus says that few will enter through the narrow gate. we will always be few,

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

It is understandable that many of our brothers and sisters may be confused and unsure about the current climate of lawlessness and chaos around the world. Some are starting to see these as signs of the times that will bring us to the end of this age and usher the second coming of Jesus Christ. However, many churches are not talking about prophecy for fear of losing church-goers or 'triggering' them with thoughts of doom and gloom. Sure, the Tribulation is going to be a time like no other, but we can rest well in knowing that Jesus will not leave us here to suffer with the non-believers.

How do I know this?

Revelation 3:10 is a special message to the church that will be present around before the rapture. Many theologians already equate the 7 churches mentioned in the first chapters as being a timeline of the church. This church in particular--the church of Philadelphia-- is starting to see the coming persecution. But Jesus speaks comfort to them saying:


Prophecy scholars say this is an indication that though the church will see persecution, God will rescue them from the final 7 year tribulation.

One thing you should consider: If you read the book of Revelation, you'll notice one interesting occurance. From Chapter 4 until 20, which encompasses the 7 year tribulation period, there is no mention of the church anywhere. They talk about the saints in various locations, but it is seen as only those that come to faith during the Tribulation. The church itself however is not mentioned. Don't you think that during this time, if the church was present there, they would be called out?

The answer: The church is not going through the Tribulation because it was raptured! Just as in Revelation 3:10, the Church is extracated from the Earth and returns to the Earth with Jesus at his second coming.

How do we know that these are the end times? It doesn't take a Bible scholar to see that something unnerving is going on with the world, but when we look at how the Bible tells us what is happening, we should be even more solid in our faith in Jesus and his second coming. Jesus himself told us of many signs that will come to indicate his second coming, many of which are showing up today in our news!

One in particular is a verse in Matthew 24:7:



If you actually took the time to study the original Greek , you would see the word 'nation' was from the Greek word "Ethnos" where we get the word "Ethnicity".

Do you see where I'm going? Instead of seeing this as one country rising against another, we now see "For Ethnicity shall rise against Ethnicity" Are we not now dealing with the BLM and Antifa movements, systematic racism and other such problems regarding race and nationality?

Let's not stop there. How about in verse 10:



The word "offended" in Greek is skandalizo, where we get the modern word "Scandal" While we have had our share of scandals, doesn't this also sound a lot like our current environment of people being offended easily--being 'Triggered'--as it were? People getting into their safe spaces to avoid dealing with people with different views? Even now you can't have a conversation with someone without them going full blown on you and despising you for your political or religious views. I myself have many friends who have dealt with those who have completely lost loved ones cause they just can't be accepted for their viewpoint.

This brings me to another verse in the same chapter, Verse 12:



Because of the lack of sincerity, compassion, and understanding, many people have simply just given in to offence, hatred, bigotry and disgust. How long will it be before this generation of teenagers, riddled with angst, virtue signaling and self-righteous selfishness turn their vitreol on the church and those who they see as racist, homophobic and bigoted. Isn't now the very words of truth considered such?

Just these few verses alone should be enough to make your hair stand on end, knowing that we are the terminal generation that will see Jesus return to the Earth! This alone should motivate all of you into action: preaching the word of God without fear, giving and serving others, studying and praying for God's guidance, and most importantly as it is written:

Good job...a very convincing argument...

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

HI CC
Can you point out scripture that says people are coming to faith during the tribulation??? I could never find any,

But I can find in the bible in revelation Revelation 9:21 that says NO ONE is repenting there fore no one is coming to faith.,

I can also find in the bible wear it says the great falling away from God happens in end times 2 Thessalonians 2:3, some claim there is a great revival but it says in the bible the opposite.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Dave You could start your search here...Revelation 7:14

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

the church is to be the light in tribulation it will be a glorious time for the church to shine, unfortunatley it will be a surprise to the luke warm christians that have prepared themselves. the church is mentioned through out the whole book of revelation.

Dave...are you talking about tribulation? Or The Tribulation? We all have tribulation, all the time and its important how we handle it...But The Tribuation is quite different..... You could look at is as tribulation is a personal thing, whereas The Tribuation is a global thing.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Pre trib, Mid trib, Pre Wrath, Post Trib, the Bible is not EXPLICIT as to when rapture occurs. Propnents of each cobble together from here and there to make sense of their rapture timing position. Brothers and sisters be ready; be about our Abba's business (occupy) until HE comes. Amen.

 

[Garee]

Dave...are you talking about tribulation? Or The Tribulation? We all have tribulation, all the time and its important how we handle it...But The Tribuation is quite different..... You could look at is as tribulation is a personal thing, whereas The Tribuation is a global thing.

I understandind it more after the Amil camp. No literal thousand years .We are past two thousand literal years . God does not number days. rather than have us walk by faith that works in us with us.

The time of first century reformation. The Tribulation. . . one like never before or ever again it was a global thing. Jesus declaring it is finished when the veil which represented the first born the circumcision. . representing the foreskin the veil was rent from the top to the bottom. . . there was no Jewish man standing or sitting in the holy of holies .Faith was re-established .

Men and women from different nation could no longer be deceived as prior to Kings in Israel (abomination of desolation) when in 1 Samauel 8 the Jewish atheist elders refused to worship a unseen King of kings and Lord of lords .They had become jealous of the surrounding pagan nations. God gave them over to do that which they should not of .The reformation is restoring the government as Judges those that believe prophecy as it is written. And not the government of mankind oral traditions a heirarchy of venerable men.


Acts 2:16-17 King James Version (KJV) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


At Pentecost spoken of by Joel the working of the restored order of Judges. . . Men and women prophets from all nations. Therefore, Christianity Christ’s bride the church was restored .Satan could no longer deceive all the nations When the veil fell . . . . . . . .he fell.

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The 7 churches seem to be 7 groups of believers that are present at the start of the tribulation. The 144,00 are the believers that make it to the end. My theory is that the 144,000 come from these 7 groups, well 6 of them.. Smyrna doesn't make it through the tribulation; they are put to death.
In Matthew 10 Jesus sends His 12 disciples out, and they are told they would go to prison and be put to death. In Luke chapter 10 Jesus sends out 72 others but they are not told they would die or go to prison. That's 84 total people that Jesus sent out. In Matthew 25 all 10 bridesmaid's are waiting on God to return but only half are patient enough to stay awake. My theory is that only half of the 144,000 will be patient enough to wait until the end which is 72,000. Smyrna would have 12,000 that would keep the faith under persecution. Making up the 84,000. That's also 1,000 people for every month of the tribulation, 84 months. It's also 12,000 from each of the 7 churches and 7,000 from each of the 12 tribes. I arrive at Smyrna having 12,000 because if 6 of the churches make up 144,000 then that's 24,000 each so Smyrna would have 24,000 to start but the same logic would apply that only half make it.

Interesting, but could the 144,000 not come from the Messianic Jews. They started in the 1970's, last time I checked they had 80,000+ members worldwide, today they have around 100,000 and their numbers are growing daily. 100,000 Jews have found and accepted Yeshua ha Mashiach. Praise the Lord.

 

[Brother-Paul]

the church is to be the light in tribulation it will be a glorious time for the church to shine, unfortunatley it will be a surprise to the luke warm christians that have prepared themselves. the church is mentioned through out the whole book of revelation.

The church is to be a light to the world at all times brother, that is the true church, the born again from above washed and spiritually regenerated souls. Not church goers or I'm a christian thinkers, only the born again from above souls. We are to shine like a bright lamp on a stand. PTL \o/

 

[JerryfromMass]

Interesting, but could the 144,000 not come from the Messianic Jews. They started in the 1970's, last time I checked they had 80,000+ members worldwide, today they have around 100,000 and their numbers are growing daily. 100,000 Jews have found and accepted Yeshua ha Mashiach. Praise the Lord.

That is an interesting question: from where and when do the 144,000 Jews come. When I tjink of this, I am reminded of Saul, who was comvicted in a moment of time, first in a blinding light and three days later his eyes were opened. Our God is able.

There may be right now 144,000 virgin boys or young men, 12,000 each from the 12 tribes cited, whom the Lord our God will convict in flash, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, as fast as the saints are conformed from corruptible to incorruptible. Our God is able.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Depends how you view the "Doctrine of Free will". Some of us believe what the Bible teaches about being a "slave unto sin" and being" a slave unto Jesus Christ". If then a slave, you are own, and you obey your master until you have been sold to a new master. So in essence a slave does not choose but lives in "Bondage" to his owner. The states when have been sold unto sin and In living in ":the Bondage of SIN". So your desirer is to your owner, and him you will obey. So then you will choose the way of your owner because you are "BOUND". and if you do not obey your master you living in "Rebellion". If Rebellion, the LAW has sentence you to death!~

If God does not choose us or choose our children. ain't nothing we can do, but "HOPE". "For Faith is the essence of what we "HOPE" for, and a proof of what we do not see".

For GOD does know the essence of "our" hearts, so let us keep that "HOPE" a live, and not let its fires burn out.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

I am proud to be a slave for his yoke is light and easy to bare.

 

[Brother-Paul]

That is an interesting question: from where and when do the 144,000 Jews come. When I tjink of this, I am reminded of Saul, who was comvicted in a moment of time, first in a blinding light and three days later his eyes were opened. Our God is able.

There may be right now 144,000 virgin boys or young men, 12,000 each from the 12 tribes cited, whom the Lord our God will convict in flash, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, as fast as the saints are conformed from corruptible to incorruptible. Our God is able.

God is able brother, he has a plan and it will be fulfilled. PTL

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I understandind it more after the Amil camp. No literal thousand years .We are past two thousand literal years . God does not number days. rather than have us walk by faith that works in us with us.

The time of first century reformation. The Tribulation. . . one like never before or ever again it was a global thing. Jesus declaring it is finished when the veil which represented the first born the circumcision. . representing the foreskin the veil was rent from the top to the bottom. . . there was no Jewish man standing or sitting in the holy of holies .Faith was re-established .

Men and women from different nation could no longer be deceived as prior to Kings in Israel (abomination of desolation) when in 1 Samauel 8 the Jewish atheist elders refused to worship a unseen King of kings and Lord of lords .They had become jealous of the surrounding pagan nations. God gave them over to do that which they should not of .The reformation is restoring the government as Judges those that believe prophecy as it is written. And not the government of mankind oral traditions a heirarchy of venerable men.


Acts 2:16-17 King James Version (KJV) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


At Pentecost spoken of by Joel the working of the restored order of Judges. . . Men and women prophets from all nations. Therefore, Christianity Christ’s bride the church was restored .Satan could no longer deceive all the nations When the veil fell . . . . . . . .he fell.

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Ok That still was not the seven year Tribulation period....

 

[Brother-Paul]

That is an interesting question: from where and when do the 144,000 Jews come. When I tjink of this, I am reminded of Saul, who was comvicted in a moment of time, first in a blinding light and three days later his eyes were opened. Our God is able.

There may be right now 144,000 virgin boys or young men, 12,000 each from the 12 tribes cited, whom the Lord our God will convict in flash, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, as fast as the saints are conformed from corruptible to incorruptible. Our God is able.

I am going to peace together a few things here that relate to the thread and a few posts, so this post is not addressed to anyone specifically, but to all, as we discuss this together.

I believe the Jews are a big part of the picture, we agree I am sure.

I also believe the the 'latter days' of the end time commenced with something that should make the whole world stand up and take note.

I believe the key that opened the door to these latter days was on, 14 May 1948, when Israel became a nation again. It was prophesied, it was fulfilled. It was, I believe, the time when the 'latter days' was conceived. Whey do I say conceived? Because Jesus told us of the things that would happen, he also said 'when you see...' you will know they are the birth pangs, when do the birth pangs come, at the end of the pregnancy.

So taking from scripture I add a few more events, there will be wars and rumours of wars, Israel alone has had 15 or 16 since 1948. There will be an increase in earth quakes, stats show over the last 100 years they have not only increased they have become more severe. There will be an increase in pestilences, there has and they are getting worse. There will be a hardening of hearts, children will be disobedient to their parents, man will go with man and woman with woman, and lots more. God flooded the whole world as we know saving Noah, seven of his family and the animals and birds, he said he would never flood the whole world again. But, in the latter days we are told there will be raging waters in diverse places, there are not many countries left in this world that have not experienced flooding. Global warning scientists say, scripture says man will go to and for knowledge but will not find the truth. Their eyes are veiled due to their sins.

Let us rejoice in God our Saviour, let us Praise the Lord, he has told us before so that when they happen, we, saved souls, will know God said they would happen as he has with all prophesies.

From 1948, things happened slowly, as they do in the first 3 months of a pregnancy. From the 1960 the world set itself Free, so they thought, so I thought in those sinful days. Free sex, free speech, free everything, respect went out of the window. From the 1960, for the next 20-30 years the pregnancy stages started to show, more and more, the world was changing, hearts were hardening all the time.

We are told, when we see these things, this is the birth pang stage, the end isn't yet, but it is very close. PTL

Now when I look at what JerryfromMass and myself discussed above, we see also the Messianic Jews, right in the middle, from the 1970's to now, 100,000 members, 100,000 Jews turned to Christ, 100,000 Jews are part of the church, the ekklesia. Here also IF the 144,000 are to come from these, to be used to reach the Jews who do not know Jesus, Yeshua their Messiah, their promised one, their numbers are also showing, time is short.

It is always worth a chat don't you think?

 

[PloughBoy]

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

I am proud to be a slave for his yoke is light and easy to bare.

And His "Burden is Light" "yoke is Light"

 

[Brother-Paul]

And His "Burden is Light"

So true brother, so true.

Nice one I like it