The church is being deceived to believe in a dual natured false Messiah and they do not know!

[Curtis]

An analogy: One’s identity is that of the President of the US, but in his nature he is a human. Since his identity is the President, it naturally means he has certain privileges and rights to be honored, worshipped etc. Yet his nature is still flesh.

Jesus (the Son of God) came in the "disguise" of sinful flesh, though he had no sin at all.

Rom 8:3 For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [subdued, overcame, deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice], (AMP)

The only way you will ever understand who Jesus was is by "keeps his commandments" in which Jesus promised he would "manifest himself to that person"

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Nobody told Peter who Jesus was according to the flesh, but God the Father revealed to Peter who Jesus was at that time.(Matt 16:15-16) Not before, or after what he would be. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That will never change.

Jesus's true identity was revealed to Peter, James, and John on the mountain of transfiguration.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

This is what's called, "God manifested in the flesh!!

 

[Curtis]

Argument: Jesus Christ is equal with God the Father.

John 14:28 My Father is GREATER than I.

1 Corinthians 11:3 The HEAD of Christ is God.

Argument proven false by Scriptures and not my own words!

The word, "greater" does not mean, "better". God the Father is not better than his Son as they are both co-equal, and they are both called God!!

 

[Curtis]

His identity as Son of God is what makes Him worthy of worship.

God alone is worthy of worship. God changes not!

 

[Dave M]

God alone is worthy of worship. God changes not!

Yeap and Jesus was worshiped as a infant

Matthew 2:11
And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

 

[Enxu]

Proof that Jesus was worshipped based on His identity as the only begotten Son, independent of whether He was flesh or Spirit in nature.

Hebrews 1:6 When God brings his first-born Son into the world, he commands all of his angels to worship him.

It was God the Father who commanded that the Son is to be worshipped, regardless of whether He was Man or Spirit.

 

[Enxu]

Till now the following Scriptures are blatantly ignored to support the theory that Jesus was a hybrid God-Man during His 30+ years on earth.

Acts 2:22 Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a MAN attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus

Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one MAN, Jesus Christ!

1 Corinthians 15:20-22 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by MAN came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It is more and more clear now why most will worship the antichrist, who will indeed be a hybrid spirit-flesh false messiah who will even show that he is god and man (ie. part spirit and part man). May God our Father and Lord Jesus Christ save those who truly love the truth from this great delusion.

 

[Curtis]

Till now the following Scriptures are blatantly ignored to support the theory that Jesus was a hybrid God-Man during His 30+ years on earth.

Acts 2:22 Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a MAN attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus

Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one MAN, Jesus Christ!

1 Corinthians 15:20-22 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by MAN came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It is more and more clear now why most will worship the antichrist, who will indeed be a hybrid spirit-flesh false messiah who will even show that he is god and man (ie. part spirit and part man). May God our Father and Lord Jesus Christ save those who truly love the truth from this great delusion.

Exo 3:14 God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. Say this to the people of Israel: I AM has sent me to you.” (NLT)

Joh 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man on the cross, then you will understand that I AM he. I do nothing on my own but say only what the Father taught me. (NLT)

Joh 8:23 Jesus continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You belong to this world; I do not.
Joh 8:24 That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.” (NLT)

Jesus said he was the "I AM". Jesus was the I AM passed, present, and future.!!

If you do not believe Jesus was the I AM passed, present, and future then you will die in your sins!

 

[Curtis]

Proof that Jesus was worshipped based on His identity as the only begotten Son, independent of whether He was flesh or Spirit in nature.

Hebrews 1:6 When God brings his first-born Son into the world, he commands all of his angels to worship him.

It was God the Father who commanded that the Son is to be worshipped, regardless of whether He was Man or Spirit.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

When did God the Father say this? When he brought Jesus Christ into this world (planet earth)

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

What Did God Father say about his Son he just brought into this world?

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:

 

[Christ4Ever]

Also, you say Son of God is a unique identity, but Son of Man is not?

That said I did get frustrated because Scriptures I’ve quoted are not only ignored, other Scriptures are quoted to contradict what I quoted. That is not the right spirit to reading the Bible imo. Then when nothing more can be shown from Scriptures to prove what they believed, I am falsely accused as being contentious and possibly heretical when all I did was to address their arguments with more Scriptures. Notice that when I started this thread I did not drag a single person in with @s to even read it, whoever wanted to read can do so, whoever doesn’t can turn away. I also never once said I am fully correct in everything I said, and people can very well do their own research, studying and seeking of truth.

Dear Sister,
I understand what you are saying, but what do you expect anyone who looks at your Scripture verses to respond with? Of course they will use Scripture, and that is as it should be. Scripture interprets Scripture, which those who believe in Scripture alone "Sola Scriptura" do. Consider, if they were the first to state their Scripture, how would you have responded? With other Scripture of course. Now as far as being falsely accused as being contentious, and possibly heretical. The first I can see some doing, but the latter was from me as a Moderator, and was explained to you and had nothing to do with the theology, but rather with your use of "heretical" directed to others. You shouldn't mix up my actions there (Mod), and mine as one who is having a discussion on theological understanding as we've been doing here in these last few postings (member).

I truly attempt to keep them separate. Some find it difficult to see how I am able to do this, because they just look at who is posting it, instead of looking how I close my postings which are either with just YBIC, or Moderator, or even YBIC/Moderator. I don't grant myself any greater knowledge of the Word of God because I'm a Moderator. There have been and are many here, who I consider to be Scholars of the Word of God, and far superior in Scripture knowledge then I am. However, it doesn't stop me from asking or answering questions. I just attempt to do it respectfully even if I am in disagreement with them. We are not savages, but Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus first and foremost. Belonging to the same Body of Christ, and serving the same Lord of Lords Jesus Christ.

I realize that you attempt to present the truth as you have learned it or believe it to be. That hopefully goes without saying for anyone who starts threads, or just posts on TJ. Doesn't always happen this way, but regardless of how they post or whose post it is, there is a certain amount of civility that should be accorded to all who participate in a conversation here. Sometimes conversations can get heated, but done respectfully, which I will normally will have a hands off policy as a Moderator. Unless I have a curiosity and come in as a Member, which I have done here. I let the theological discussion come to its own conclusion. In the hope that the light will shine through.

I also, agree that people can and should do their own research, study, in the seeking of God's Truth and what He has wanted us to know from His Word. Which is by the way called exegesis instead of what the person wants it to say which is eisegesis. I will never profess to knowing it all, and I come to find out when those I communicate appear to believe they do. That is the time when the dialogue between us stops happening. Instead, it becomes a debate, and the best to hope for after it has all been said and done. Is that we agree to disagree, and when we part, that it may be done peacefully with the Love of Christ. Hopefully, to break bread again in the future.

Thank-you for the sharing of your words in this last post.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
<><

 

[Enxu]

Also, you say Son of God is a unique identity, but Son of Man is not?

Dear Sister,
I understand what you are saying, but what do you expect anyone who looks at your Scripture verses to respond with? Of course they will use Scripture, and that is as it should be. Scripture interprets Scripture, which those who believe in Scripture alone "Sola Scriptura" do. Consider, if they were the first to state their Scripture, how would you have responded? With other Scripture of course. Now as far as being falsely accused as being contentious, and possibly heretical. The first I can see some doing, but the latter was from me as a Moderator, and was explained to you and had nothing to do with the theology, but rather with your use of "heretical" directed to others. You shouldn't mix up my actions there (Mod), and mine as one who is having a discussion on theological understanding as we've been doing here in these last few postings (member).

I truly attempt to keep them separate. Some find it difficult to see how I am able to do this, because they just look at who is posting it, instead of looking how I close my postings which are either with just YBIC, or Moderator, or even YBIC/Moderator. I don't grant myself any greater knowledge of the Word of God because I'm a Moderator. There have been and are many here, who I consider to be Scholars of the Word of God, and far superior in Scripture knowledge then I am. However, it doesn't stop me from asking or answering questions. I just attempt to do it respectfully even if I am in disagreement with them. We are not savages, but Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus first and foremost. Belonging to the same Body of Christ, and serving the same Lord of Lords Jesus Christ.

I realize that you attempt to present the truth as you have learned it or believe it to be. That hopefully goes without saying for anyone who starts threads, or just posts on TJ. Doesn't always happen this way, but regardless of how they post or whose post it is, there is a certain amount of civility that should be accorded to all who participate in a conversation here. Sometimes conversations can get heated, but done respectfully, which I will normally will have a hands off policy as a Moderator. Unless I have a curiosity and come in as a Member, which I have done here. I let the theological discussion come to its own conclusion. In the hope that the light will shine through.

I also, agree that people can and should do their own research, study, in the seeking of God's Truth and what He has wanted us to know from His Word. Which is by the way called exegesis instead of what the person wants it to say which is eisegesis. I will never profess to knowing it all, and I come to find out when those I communicate appear to believe they do. That is the time when the dialogue between us stops happening. Instead, it becomes a debate, and the best to hope for after it has all been said and done. Is that we agree to disagree, and when we part, that it may be done peacefully with the Love of Christ. Hopefully, to break bread again in the future.

Thank-you for the sharing of your words in this last post.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
<><

Son of Man clearly referred to His manhood, His nature as man. The begotten Son is His identity since before creation. That identity never changed whether He was in the form of man or otherwise.

If I was first shown Scripture I would give my interpretation of those Scriptures to confirm what I already believe, not lay them aside and use other Scriptures to confirm a belief that contradicts the Scriptures I was shown. This was what was done here and what got me frustrated and it still had not stopped. The many verses I’ve shown about how Jesus is called a Man in the Gospel (and not the hybrid God-Man as they espoused) are conveniently laid aside as though they aren’t there. I mean they never even talked about the verses I quoted and how they can reconcile their beliefs with those verses. Hmm?? To me, they are in denial.

Well on a level I can understand why they refuse to change their beliefs, because it meant that what they originally believed would all have to be torn apart. That is traumatic to say the least. I once believed in the trinity doctrine and that Jesus was God-Man but over the years as I kept praying to God for knowledge of the truth more and more Scriptures are beginning to reveal itself to me and I cannot hold onto what I know to be false. Was it devastating? Yes, at the beginning, but my heart is always to seek the truth that comes from God. I am always ready to change my beliefs, at any moment, no matter how traumatic the experience, as long as my beliefs are not in line with the truth of God. Sadly not everyone has this mindset. They value their comfort in their current set of beliefs above all else.

 

[Enxu]

Also, you say Son of God is a unique identity, but Son of Man is not?

Dear Sister,
I understand what you are saying, but what do you expect anyone who looks at your Scripture verses to respond with? Of course they will use Scripture, and that is as it should be. Scripture interprets Scripture, which those who believe in Scripture alone "Sola Scriptura" do. Consider, if they were the first to state their Scripture, how would you have responded? With other Scripture of course. Now as far as being falsely accused as being contentious, and possibly heretical. The first I can see some doing, but the latter was from me as a Moderator, and was explained to you and had nothing to do with the theology, but rather with your use of "heretical" directed to others. You shouldn't mix up my actions there (Mod), and mine as one who is having a discussion on theological understanding as we've been doing here in these last few postings (member).

I truly attempt to keep them separate. Some find it difficult to see how I am able to do this, because they just look at who is posting it, instead of looking how I close my postings which are either with just YBIC, or Moderator, or even YBIC/Moderator. I don't grant myself any greater knowledge of the Word of God because I'm a Moderator. There have been and are many here, who I consider to be Scholars of the Word of God, and far superior in Scripture knowledge then I am. However, it doesn't stop me from asking or answering questions. I just attempt to do it respectfully even if I am in disagreement with them. We are not savages, but Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus first and foremost. Belonging to the same Body of Christ, and serving the same Lord of Lords Jesus Christ.

I realize that you attempt to present the truth as you have learned it or believe it to be. That hopefully goes without saying for anyone who starts threads, or just posts on TJ. Doesn't always happen this way, but regardless of how they post or whose post it is, there is a certain amount of civility that should be accorded to all who participate in a conversation here. Sometimes conversations can get heated, but done respectfully, which I will normally will have a hands off policy as a Moderator. Unless I have a curiosity and come in as a Member, which I have done here. I let the theological discussion come to its own conclusion. In the hope that the light will shine through.

I also, agree that people can and should do their own research, study, in the seeking of God's Truth and what He has wanted us to know from His Word. Which is by the way called exegesis instead of what the person wants it to say which is eisegesis. I will never profess to knowing it all, and I come to find out when those I communicate appear to believe they do. That is the time when the dialogue between us stops happening. Instead, it becomes a debate, and the best to hope for after it has all been said and done. Is that we agree to disagree, and when we part, that it may be done peacefully with the Love of Christ. Hopefully, to break bread again in the future.

Thank-you for the sharing of your words in this last post.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
<><

Just an example of what I mean when I say they gloss over Scriptures I’ve quoted. I quoted them the following:


Acts 2:22 Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a MAN attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus

Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one MAN, Jesus Christ!

1 Corinthians 15:20-22 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by MAN came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

These are my questions that never got addressed: If Jesus is God-Man, why did the above verses say He is MAN? Shouldn’t the verses read God-Man instead? Did Jesus’ apostles lie about Him by preaching Him as only Man?

These questions alone are enough to make them reevaluate everything they believed about Jesus, but they ignore those verses entirely and keep quoting Scriptures that either talk about who Jesus was in the OT or His true and never changing identity as Son of God, or rather the only begotten Son.

They were not talking about the same thing I was talking about to begin with. They assume I’m denying the verses they’ve presented but I never did. I never said Jesus was not God in the OT, neither did I say Jesus is not the Son of God. I am able to reconcile every single verse they quoted with my firm belief that Jesus was the MAN of Nazareth as preached by His apostles. They confuse Jesus’ identity with Jesus’ nature, mixing who Jesus was in the OT (God and Spirit in nature) with who Jesus was in the NT (Man and flesh in nature) during His earthly ministry.

Then when they can’t prove their beliefs anymore they decide in their minds I’m a potential heretic, self deceived and not saved. Yet I never made the conclusion that they were not saved at all. Strange isn’t it?

 

[Christ4Ever]

Son of Man clearly referred to His manhood, His nature as man. The begotten Son is His identity since before creation. That identity never changed whether He was in the form of man or otherwise.

If I was first shown Scripture I would give my interpretation of those Scriptures to confirm what I already believe, not lay them aside and use other Scriptures to confirm a belief that contradicts the Scriptures I was shown. This was what was done here and what got me frustrated and it still had not stopped. The many verses I’ve shown about how Jesus is called a Man in the Gospel (and not the hybrid God-Man as they espoused) are conveniently laid aside as though they aren’t there. I mean they never even talked about the verses I quoted and how they can reconcile their beliefs with those verses. Hmm?? To me, they are in denial.

Well on a level I can understand why they refuse to change their beliefs, because it meant that what they originally believed would all have to be torn apart. That is traumatic to say the least. I once believed in the trinity doctrine and that Jesus was God-Man but over the years as I kept praying to God for knowledge of the truth more and more Scriptures are beginning to reveal itself to me and I cannot hold onto what I know to be false. Was it devastating? Yes, at the beginning, but my heart is always to seek the truth that comes from God. I am always ready to change my beliefs, at any moment, no matter how traumatic the experience, as long as my beliefs are not in line with the truth of God. Sadly not everyone has this mindset. They value their comfort in their current set of beliefs above all else.

Hello Exnu,
First I'm setting aside no Scripture. Including other Scripture, just shows that you are seeking more knowledge and growth and not just selective information in order to make a point. You can't separate Son of Man and Son of God. They are talking of the same personage and who He Is For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Don't let how others respond to what you post, frustrate you. Even if you know they are wrong, this is no reason to allow anothers' inability to see, much less know the truth, be the impediment from the joy in Him and His Word that you have. No matter how frustrating you let yourself get. Remember you really will not convince anyone of your position solely by logic of your words, but rather by praying for them, and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict, and open them to the knowledge of understanding of His Word. Realizing that God is in control will allow that frustration to melt away. You just have to know when it starts to be frustrating, and then step away, pray, and allowing yourself to be open to the words/understanding necessary to bring the light to those in darkness. What did God say to Zerubbabel? "...Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit..." Allow God to do the heavy lifting, for He wants to do that for us. We just have to let Him!

Also, do you believe that a persons' Salvation is determined by this theological question that is being wrestled with here? Understand, that how God accomplished/executes what He does is not necessary for one to believe dear Sister. For the person who tells you if you can answer this question (fill in the blank) and I'll believe. Is the person who will always have another question for you to answer, and will never be satisfied with the answers you provide to belief! There is an Atheist that comes to this site periodically that may even have more head knowledge of Scripture then both of us combined, but sadly there is always another question and their unbelief stays intact.

With all that being said, don't let any words received from others be the reason to allow the love of Christ not shine through in what you seek to communicate.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Enxu]

Hello Exnu,
First I'm setting aside no Scripture. Including other Scripture, just shows that you are seeking more knowledge and growth and not just selective information in order to make a point. You can't separate Son of Man and Son of God. They are talking of the same personage and who He Is For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Don't let how others respond to what you post, frustrate you. Even if you know they are wrong, this is no reason to allow anothers' inability to see, much less know the truth, be the impediment from the joy in Him and His Word that you have. No matter how frustrating you let yourself get. Remember you really will not convince anyone of your position solely by logic of your words, but rather by praying for them, and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict, and open them to the knowledge of understanding of His Word. Realizing that God is in control will allow that frustration to melt away. You just have to know when it starts to be frustrating, and then step away, pray, and allowing yourself to be open to the words/understanding necessary to bring the light to those in darkness. What did God say to Zerubbabel? "...Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit..." Allow God to do the heavy lifting, for He wants to do that for us. We just have to let Him!

Also, do you believe that a persons' Salvation is determined by this theological question that is being wrestled with here? Understand, that how God accomplished/executes what He does is not necessary for one to believe dear Sister. For the person who tells you if you can answer this question (fill in the blank) and I'll believe. Is the person who will always have another question for you to answer, and will never be satisfied with the answers you provide to belief! There is an Atheist that comes to this site periodically that may even have more head knowledge of Scripture then both of us combined, but sadly there is always another question and their unbelief stays intact.

With all that being said, don't let any words received from others be the reason to allow the love of Christ not shine through in what you seek to communicate.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

I did not separate Son of Man from Son of God. They are simply terms used to refer to different aspects of Jesus, His nature and His identity. Just like Donald Trump has the identity of President and is man in nature. If you study the Gospel when Jesus ascended back to heaven He stopped calling Himself Son of Man, which means His nature by then was no longer flesh but rather in a glorified body. This is why I said the term Son of Man is a reference to His nature.

In Isaiah 9:6 the term “will be called” is translated from the Hebrew word qara. This word actually has the meaning of call, call out, recite, proclaim. So that verse should have been translated as:

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will PROCLAIM Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Jesus came to earth to proclaim/declare His Father as God. That is what is really said here. Jesus was never called everlasting Father, but rather Son of God, Lord and Savior etc. So clearly those terms in Isaiah don’t apply to Him per se but rather what His name will declare about the one true God whom we now call our Father.

I have indeed stopped arguing with them, yes, only the Spirit of God can show them the truth. And no, this theological debate has nothing to do with salvation per se, which the Gospel said is dependent on faith in Jesus and what He did on the cross. Yet people are judging my salvation based on this debate simply because I reject the trinity man made doctrine.

The only reason I raised this concern is because of the deception of the antichrist spirit (which seeks to make people eventually deny that Jesus truly came in the flesh and thus make them believe in another Messiah) and the possibility of falling away from true faith in Jesus into great delusion because of what one believed.

My questions are straightforward and direct. As long as they can reconcile/explain why Jesus was not called God-Man by any of His apostles, which is what they propose about Him, they are safe to believe what they believed. Their answers don’t impact what I believe in the first place.

1 Corinthians 8:6

According to Paul, we have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. I stick solely to this and nothing beyond the full Gospel.

 

[Curtis]

I did not separate Son of Man from Son of God. They are simply terms used to refer to different aspects of Jesus, His nature and His identity.

The reason why Jesus referred to himself as the "son man" is because, in the beginning, God gave man authority over all the works of his hands. Since death came by man (the first Adam) then the only way man could be saved must come by a man (the last Adam)! The Lord God did not say, Let us have dominion over the earth, he said "Let them have dominion"

It would be impossible for a man to take upon himself the "sins" of mankind and still raise from the dead unless the man was God himself! No one is saved just because Jesus died for man (which is a part of salvation), we are saved because Jesus rose from the dead, and only God could do that!

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

[Enxu]

People just don’t acknowledge what I’m truly saying and want to argue over things I never said. I never said Jesus was never God, I said He never had two natures mixed together. He was Spirit in nature in the OT, flesh in nature during His earthly ministry, and glorified in a spiritual body again upon resurrection. Jesus always had only ONE nature in Him, He was either Spirit or flesh depending on whether you refer to Him during the OT era or NT era. Don’t know why this is incomprehensible??

People quote 1 Corinthians 15:21 but don’t believe what they quote. It reads by MAN, not by God-Man. Yet they insist Jesus the Man of Nazareth is a hybrid spirit mixed with flesh God-Man.

 

[Enxu]

Let me also make myself clear that while I don’t believe in the trinity man made doctrine, I don’t judge people’s salvation based on this, even though some judge me to be unsaved. Even people who are truly born again can be deceived by false doctrines, but one thing I myself do is always be ready to change beliefs that are false no matter how convincing they seem. I did at one point believe in the trinity until I consistently saw only two Persons mentioned in the Gospel with regards to who are involved in salvation of mankind, Father and the only Begotten Son, God and the Lamb, God our Father and Lord Jesus Christ.

It is historical fact that the original baptism was done “in the name of Jesus Christ” but the Roman Catholic Church changed it to “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” later on. This new trinity baptism formula essentially makes baptism void because the Gospel said clearly only by the name of Jesus are we saved. Yet their false trinity baptism formula totally removes the name Jesus from the act of baptism, if that is not sinister I don’t know what is. Matthew 28:19 was deceptively added/changed along with all other verses that talk about the trinity by the Roman Catholic Church at least 200 years after the church was founded by Jesus Christ. If you don’t believe it, please do your own research.

In the book of revelations, the devil is seen to deceive mankind by his unholy trinity: dragon, beast and false prophet.

The antichrist spirit had already prepared the world to be deceived by the long-standing pagan trinity doctrine in all other religions that don’t acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God. We ought to be careful therefore what we believe and the origins of every doctrine that claims to be Christian.

 

[Enxu]

Some argue that the Holy Spirit is a person just because Bibles call the Spirit “He”. Does that position stand?

No, in certain languages like Hebrew, Greek or French, words itself (whether they describe an actual person or an item) can have masculine or feminine terms. In the Bible, Wisdom is personified as she but that doesn’t make Wisdom an actual person in the real sense like you and me! In French, the word book is called livre and when referring to it by pronoun it would be translated in English as he or him. But clearly you would never call a book “he”

I’ll now post all the evidence that the Holy Spirit, although translated as “he”, is not an actual person. Do your own research to find out the truth.

In the Old Testament, in Hebrew, Spirit is called ruach and is referred to with feminine pronouns. Is the Spirit of God now a “she” based on this? Of course not! In the Greek language the term Helper is a masculine word called parakletos, yet such a word should not simply be translated as he or him on its own!

It is grammatically incorrect to translate Hebrew, Greek or French texts into he or she without reference to an actual person. Or else we would translate a French sentence about a book into an English sentence that looks something like “I will look for the book so I can read HIM”!

Bible verses that show the Holy Spirit is NOT an actual person and should in fact be translated as “it” and “which” rather than “he” or “who”:

Matthew 10:20 KJV
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Matthew 10:20 American King James For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you.

Matthew 10:20 American Standard For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

Matthew 10:20 Douay Rheims
For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

Matthew 10:20 Darby
For ye are not the speakers, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you.

Matthew 10:20 English Revised
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

Matthew 10:20 Young Literals
for ye are not the speakers, but the Spirit of your Father that is speaking in you.

Romans 8:6 KJV
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:6 Darby
The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God.

Romans 8:6 American King James The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:6 Webster
The Spirit itself testifieth with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:26 KJV
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Romans 8:26 American King James Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Romans 8:26 Darby
And in like manner the Spirit joins also its help to our weakness; for we do not know what we should pray for as is fitting, but the Spirit itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Romans 8:26 Webster
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

1 Peter 1:11 KJV
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Peter 1:11 Jubilee 2000
searching when and in what point of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, which announced beforehand the afflictions that were to come upon the Christ, and the glory that should follow them.

1 Peter 1:11 American King James Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Peter 1:11 American Standard
searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

1 Peter 1:11 Douay Rheims
Searching what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them did signify: when it foretold those sufferings that are in Christ, and the glories that should follow:

1 Peter 1:11 Darby
searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ which [was] in them pointed out, testifying before of the sufferings which [belonged] to Christ, and the glories after these.

1 Peter 1:11 English Re
searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

1 Peter 1:11 Webster
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[Enxu]

I’ve posted as much doubts about what I don’t believe and evidence as I could about why I believe what I believe. Don’t take my word for it, seek the truth for yourselves. This discussion will stop now. Thanks all.

 

[Curtis]

I’ve posted as much doubts about what I don’t believe and evidence as I could about why I believe what I believe. Don’t take my word for it, seek the truth for yourselves. This discussion will stop now. Thanks all.

Jesus Christ (the Word of God) prayed to his Father, not to himself! The Father sent his Son, not himself to die for man. The Holy Spirit helps us pray not to himself but to God the Father.

You can “lie” to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit (which is his name) is called God!!!

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

You can sin against Jesus (the Son of Man) and be forgiven, but no one can be forgiven who sins against the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is NOT Jesus, or the Heavenly Father!!!

Jesus said that he would pray to his Father to send the Holy Spirit, not to send his Father himself but the Holy Spirit!

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit is NOT Jesus, neither is he the Father!!!!

 

[Enxu]

Last time I will reply to quoted Scriptures. I already showed the Spirit is not an actual person from previous Scriptures I’ve quoted, so what is to be said about the Spirit mentioned by Jesus in John 14:16-18?

Pulpit Commentary:

In the thought of the early Church the Lord was the Spirit: the glorified Lord, the Christ, who had "all power in heaven and earth," was manifested, was veritably present, in all the work of the Spirit of God in his Church. The Spirit was not only the Unity of the Father and the Son, the one Self-consciousness of both, but the one Consciousness of the Son of God and Son of man, the uniting Energy which represents the one Personality of the Christ, the Spirit-power which blends all the members of the mystical body with the Head. Throughout the Acts of the Apostles we see that all the great operations of the Holy Spirit are but the energies of the living, reigning Lord.

To say the Spirit is an actual individual apart from God is like saying our spirits are actual individuals apart from us. But clearly that is not the reality of what spirit is. We don’t have separate individuals coequal to us just because we are body soul and spirit, do we?