The End Times Controversy

[jiggyfly]

We shall give no credence to this tool the devil uses. I say God bless to the messenger here, but no thank you I will not buy any, NONE! I ask the rest of you to love this Shaggy flasko, prayer is needed. Enjoy your new jerusalem. I will wait patiently for our New Jerusalem. My friends in waiting I ask this simply of you.....We have gave Shaggy our words so he may learn, he has offered his words so we may learn. Lets now leave this one to these words so we no longer give him a platform to spew this garbage that is an interpretation of the devil. God bless all and take no offense.

Good post Soldier, full of wsdom, thanks

 

[Shaggy Flasko]

spew this garbage

I think yall actually started it. I simply gave a brief description of preterism, though found it necessary to defend my beliefs, which, in my opinion, I've done with CHRISTIAN LOVE and SCRIPTURAL REASON.

We have gave Shaggy our words so he may learn, he has offered his words so we may learn.

You didn't answer any of my questions. I don't think you even read what I wrote. All you've done is spew "heretic" at me with poor and irrelevant scriptural support. You've initiated this discourse and completely ignored my side of the story.

Also, I've only been using scripture. All I've seen from you, sir, is personal attacks.

Well, i want my new body then! He,He.. i would like a new back, and a new shoulder, and a new... let me see? Hmm aaaaaaaaaa, Oh ya, i have a foot problem, oh and i want to stop weeping as well, God said i could in the New Jerusalem. Sooooooo where is them leaves off of the tree of life for my healing? and i dont want to have any sorrow any more... Hey God? why are there still ocean's? I thought there was no more sea on the New Earth? Hey God whats wrong? i thought you were going to make all things new for us? a New Heaven and a New Earth? Well thats not fair!! Hmm...It's them Preterist, they dont believe you can do it again!! That whats up? Right?...Thought So.

PLEASE!! Shaggy Flasko, give me a break...im gonna need a new set of ribs also, if you keep this up....

2 Peter 1:20 - But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

1 Corinthians 15:46 - However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

What do you base these statements upon? Can't you think for youself and examine scripture instead of making fun of whoever disagrees with you?

It's them Preterist, they dont believe you can do it again!! That whats up? Right?...Thought So.

I believe he accomplished all in the manner and time in which he said he would.

I've gone through a lot of trouble to answer your questions. Why do you ignore everything I say? You must prove that you're correct before you can claim to be correct.

to spew this garbage that is an interpretation of the devil. God bless all and take no offense.

Should I take no offence? I'm very offended.

I thought you people were Christians. Look at yourselves. I'd be ashamed to be associated with such conceited, hate-filled people. I hope unbelievers should not read this thread, and see what your "Christian reasoning" amounts to. Or, maybe they should, that you should be called to account.

I didn't know this was going to turn into a slander match. You win.

Good post Soldier, full of wsdom, thanks

It's more like hateful propaganda, actually.

Answer my questions, since I've spent hours answering yours.

(1.) How can you refute Christ's promises (e.g. Matthew 3:2, 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke ) and the apostles assertions (Hebrews 10:37, Acts 2:16-21, Romans 16:20, Luke 21:22, Colossians 1:6, 23 compare Matthew 24:14 & Revelation 14:6-7)?

(2.) Many futurists portray modern, carnal Israel as still a special, chosen people.
How do we separate that which God has joined together? Romans 8:28-29, 10:12, Galatians 3:28-29, Colossians 3:11

Also, look through Romans 8-11 for Paul's view of the "New Israel" encompassing those (Jew and Gentile) who have the circumcision of the heart (some cut off, others grafted in, Romans 9). Ephesians 2:14-16, 19, 1 Corinthians 12:13

(3.) taken from the article Questions for Questions for Dispensationalists,
Premillennialists, and Other Futurists by Daniel T. Silvestri

By what legitimate means do we perceive some Biblical statements as literal and others as symbolic?

It is very interesting to observe the collection of scriptural verses that many perceive as "literal" while others are "symbolic". How is this determined? What guidelines are used? Is it arbitrary? Some examples of verses that many interpret as literal would include: "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mat. 24:30); "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11); "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth" (Rev. 19:21); "And so all Israel shall be saved" (Rom. 11:26). These verses are interpreted in the plainest, most usual, typical sense of words in the earthly objectively observable literal meaning. However, the following verses are NOT usually interpreted in the same literal sense: "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come" (Mat. 10:23); "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom (Mat. 16:28). "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mat. 24:34); "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled (Luke 21:22). What exactly is the determining factor that renders the first collection of verses ‘literal’ and the latter set of verses ‘symbolic’?

(4.) Why, instead of changing the conception of fulfillment to conform to scripture, do I perceive an attempt to reinterpret scripture to conform to the traditional conception of fulfillment? (to question 1)

(5.) Was Christ mistaken?

May God bless you with love and wisdom.
-Bill

 

[Shaggy Flasko]

at the time of Paul's warning (2Ti 2:15-19), or he would have used it.

What was the time of Paul’s warning? They were living before the resurrection when it was written, therefore, Phil and Hymen were wrong. I’ve already addressed this.

Basically, Preterism states that the resurrection of the saints; the rapture; the second advent of Christ; and the millennial reign of Christ; are all historic rather than all future events; therefore, it is the archaic meaning of the term that is meant when we speak of Preterism.

True, except that I don’t believe in the rapture.

Another significant item the Preterist erroneously believes in, and teaches, is that the New Heaven, and New Earth, have already commenced!

I don't think it's erroneous. In fact, I wrote quite a lot on this topic. I made my assertion, and provided strong evidence from scripture. Why don't you refute it from scripture?

Arguing from the assumption that you're right is called "begging the question".

Take Careful Note of This: If one really knows Christian doctrine, and carefully analyzes the tenets of Preterism, one invariably arrives at the astonishing conclusion that Preterism necessarily eliminates the Dispensation of the Grace of God,

Show me where the “dispensation of grace” is taught in the scriptures.

and all Christian doctrine!

Behold, this is untrue.

Preterism does this by placing all under the authority of the earthly Jesus and the Twelve apostles; rather than the exclusive authority of the heavenly Jesus and the apostle Paul during this dispensation!

Preterism does this by honestly examining the scriptures and placing the teaching of Christ and the apostles above church tradition.

Also, I place all authority in CHRIST ALONE. He is the only authority and Paul, without him, would be nothing. John 14:6?

Under the preterist paradigm, there is no need for a “dispensation of grace” because Christ rules as he said he would, commencing when he said he would.

Preterists view the apostle Paul, as just another of the Twelve, working under a joint commission. That, however, is a teaching of demons.

Was Paul greater than his teacher, equal with Christ himself?

"Now the spirit is saying explicitly, that in subsequent eras some will be withdrawing from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and the teachings of demons," (1Ti. 4:1)

That’s a good verse. Are you quoting it randomly, or applying it, in context, to your point? If you’re using it in context, please explain.

A rather surprising implication, is that the Administration of Superabundant Grace, which we are currently living in, is a myth according to the drift of Preterism's foul doctrine! According to it, all is yet under Jewish Law;

Are you under the impression that the Kingdom of God, and the new Jerusalem are bound by the Mosaic Laws?

and what's worse, is that Preterism erases 1,943 years of Christian history!

Hmm, that’s an odd assertion. I don’t know how you came to this conclusion.

If Preterism's claims are correct, then, Christianity has never existed after the manner that we Christians have known it!

Prove it.

The 1,943 years represent the time that exists between 58 AD, around the time when Paul stopped witnessing to the Jews, because of their hard core unbelief, and taught the Gentiles exclusively, until his martyrdom; and 2001 AD.

Lol, I think you forgot to update your article. This was written four years ago and you’re posting it to refute my assertions?! Did you even read anything I wrote?

Obviously, Preterism's claim, that all mentioned above, is "history," cannot be true; as any sane person can well see. Preterism must say that all it believes is "not physical," but "spiritual!" And that is exactly what Preterism does say!

Could you be a little more specific? Since when are spiritual things not real?

As is present in every cult, Preterism also has its chief, non-Biblical figure. Romanism has its succession of Popes; Mormonism had Joe Smith; J.W.'s had Russell; Seventh-Day Adventism had Ellen G. White; and Scientology had Mary Baker Eddy. This, of course, is a necessarily short sampling. There are many, many, more cults that could be also be mentioned.

The one who appears to be the involuntary, and unwitting guru of Preterism, posthumously, mind you; is also the man to whose writings Preterists appeal to most often for 'proof' of their 'doctrine.' That man was Flavius Josephus, aka 'Joseph de Bello,' a name Preterism camouflages with a nomen obscurus.

I never even mentioned Josephus. Where are you getting this nonsense?

Preterism flies in the very face of Scriptural warning! This sect is of such arrogance, and so smooth, that Christ Jesus made it a special point that the Scriptures he inspired Paul to write, would contain the very gravest warning against it! Here then, are those verses, with their warning against Preterism, in the fullest context:

I wondered when you would resort to looking at the scriptures.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

That’s something I agree with.

[This is the ultimate defence against all cults: Study to learn the word of truth, [and then rightly divide it from all else.] Paul's evangel is the sole evangel for us today. It must be rightly divided, as different from the rest of the Bible. It is not to be mixed with Judaism, but regrettably, most, throughout Christendom, also make that same mistake, and mix it as well.

Doth Paul preach a different truth? Where does he say this?

Verse 18 plainly describes what the error of Preterism is. But Preterists cleverly and foolishly explain their way around that verse! These guys are really something!

It’s more foolish to try to bias your readers against the opposing argument before the other person has had a chance to speak. Are you hoping that all will mindlessly follow your word because of some insults?

Let me ask you. When was 2 Timothy written? I was written before AD 70. Perhaps AD 50-65, but suffice to say it was before the Parousia. When did Hymen and Phil say that the resurrection had taken place? That’s right, before AD 65, at the latest. When do I hold that the resurrection occurred? Approximately AD 70.

Christ had not yet wroth his judgment upon Jerusalem and had not heralded the resurrection of the dead.
The resurrection of the dead is tied to Christ’s second coming. Let’s look at other events that would accompany Christ.

1 Thessalonians - 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

The Thessalonians are told that their suffering would be ameliorated in God’s judgment, at Christ’s return. This would coincide with the resurrection.
If the resurrection had already taken place, those persecuted saints would’ve lost the promise of deliverance, which is why Hymen and Phil's teaching overthrew the faith of some.

They were wrong. The Parousia came after them, but not 2000 years after.

They simply wish to win you over as converts to their 'Christ.' Trouble is, the Christ of Preterism is not the Christ of those who became known as Christians first in Antioch; the same One Who appeared to Paul those many times after his initial encounter with Him on the road to Damascus.

Prove it. You’re making more blind, unproven assumptions.

You see, when you erase, as Preterist doctrine must do [in order to appear correct], the last 1,943 years of Christian history; you also necessarily erase Christ, Who is the head of that period of time! Details on this 1,943 year period follows a little later below.

Dispensationalism must attempt to refute the teaching of Christ and the apostles in order to validate itself. I’ve already given you many references.

You must remember that false doctrine comes from the father of the lie, the Slanderer. He is the one that energizes people to dispense his lies, all the while thinking that they are dispensing truth. The real danger comes by way of the fact that they actually believe what they teach; and when a person's whole being gets in step with the message he is delivering, the overall effect can be very powerful; very appealing; and one very convincing presentation. Never forget that.

Preterists sincerely believe that they are serving God with their strange doctrine; but sad to say,they are sincerely wrong.

Hot air, why don’t you prove it instead of spreading propaganda? I’ve already dealt with this assumption above, with your hymen theory. It is a misrepresentation of the Preterist view.

What I am trying to do here is to make Preterism's most damaging implications and their effects on the Christian faith, quite clear to the reader, so that you may easily avoid falling into Preterism unawares.

Hmm, that’s interesting. I’ve never been happier, more content, and secure and less fearful in my walk with Christ as when I know his gospel is not destined to be defeated and that he fulfilled everything as he taught.

Verse 17, in the series quoted above, is also very noteworthy. There is no other sect ---found in Paul's epistles that is written of with as much gravity as that of Preterism. The Bible calls it, as though it were, a deadly, spreading,gangrene.

Preterism…before the Parousia….

Glory to God for the wisdom to learn and avoid such traps.

What wisdom has been displayed here? It’s one thing to claim to have wisdom. It’s another to defer to the wisdom of the scriptures.

Hey! What happened to the "details" on those 1,943 years? I didn't see them.

Perhaps you're wondering why I responded so often with questions. This is because nearly the entire article consistent of unfounded slander. If you make a statement, YOU MUST PROVE IT and NOT simple ASSUME YOU'RE RIGHT. This would never be accepted in a formal debate, neither will I accept it in informal discourse.

Prove your assumptions from scripture, in context and with logical reasoning. How do you expect to convince anyone of anything?

I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if I am indeed proven wrong (that's why I'm a preterist). So prove me wrong.

I'd like to repeat my questions, again.

(1.) How can you refute Christ's promises (e.g. Matthew 3:2, 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke ) and the apostles assertions (Hebrews 10:37, Acts 2:16-21, Romans 16:20, Luke 21:22, Colossians 1:6, 23 compare Matthew 24:14 & Revelation 14:6-7)?

(2.) Many futurists portray modern, carnal Israel as still a special, chosen people.
How do we separate that which God has joined together? Romans 8:28-29, 10:12, Galatians 3:28-29, Colossians 3:11

Also, look through Romans 8-11 for Paul's view of the "New Israel" encompassing those (Jew and Gentile) who have the circumcision of the heart (some cut off, others grafted in, Romans 9). Ephesians 2:14-16, 19, 1 Corinthians 12:13

(3.) taken from the article Questions for Questions for Dispensationalists,
Premillennialists, and Other Futurists by Daniel T. Silvestri

By what legitimate means do we perceive some Biblical statements as literal and others as symbolic?

It is very interesting to observe the collection of scriptural verses that many perceive as "literal" while others are "symbolic". How is this determined? What guidelines are used? Is it arbitrary? Some examples of verses that many interpret as literal would include: "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mat. 24:30); "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11); "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth" (Rev. 19:21); "And so all Israel shall be saved" (Rom. 11:26). These verses are interpreted in the plainest, most usual, typical sense of words in the earthly objectively observable literal meaning. However, the following verses are NOT usually interpreted in the same literal sense: "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come" (Mat. 10:23); "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom (Mat. 16:28). "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mat. 24:34); "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled (Luke 21:22). What exactly is the determining factor that renders the first collection of verses ‘literal’ and the latter set of verses ‘symbolic’?

(4.) Why, instead of changing the conception of fulfillment to conform to scripture, do I perceive an attempt to reinterpret scripture to conform to the traditional conception of fulfillment? (to question 1)

(5.) Was Christ mistaken?

These are the only questions to which I seek answers from you, yet no one has bothered to take them up.

-Bill

 

[jjkirk]

A note from a Moderator:


I see that this thread is starting to get out of hand. If the misuse of this thread continues, with allegations being thrown back and forth, I will have no choice but to close it.
Healthy discussions are great and a way to learn and grow, So Remember speak the truth in Love.(Thank you to those who are trying to keep the peace)

Peace be with you all.

 

[Shaggy Flasko]

Soldier of God
-------------------------------

We obviously have different views as a whole. And as a whole we all accept Jesus Christ.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that. Earlier you said that I denied all Christian doctrine, and that...

"the Christ of Preterism is not the Christ of those who became known as Christians first in Antioch"

If you changed your mind about my "heresy", please say so.

So I would say all these things you attempt to drill into other minds than yours, should cease.

I wasn't really drilling anything. When my beliefs are challenged (especially as blasphemy or heresy), I believe I have an obligation to respond.

Btw, how am I drilling? Someone challenges my statements (or asks questions to clarify my beliefs) and I defend my statements from scripture. There's nothing wrong with that. I was purely a respondent until posting those 5 simple questions.

Who's drilling?

"We shall give no credence to this tool the devil uses."

Lets move forward through Christ and post some possitive things. Right now everything is negative, understand?

This is quite a change of heart, compared to your previous posts. I appreciate the civility. From now on, could we avoid such things as...?

"Lets now leave this one to these words so we no longer give him a platform to spew this garbage that is an interpretation of the devil."

God bless you,

...and you as well.

I have read and learned your views but need not reply to all your questions.

I've spent hours assembling a cohesive response and explanation for my beliefs, yet you offer nothing in return but labels. Read your own articles. In fact, you've answered for nothing at all.

Come on, give me a break and tell me what you really think. I feel like your being disingenuous, simply trying to end the conversation.

Please, tell me where you stand and what you think of what I've written. That goes for everyone that's posted here. Seriously, after going through all that, I'd like to hear what you think. Honesty never hurt anyone, because we're all brothers here, brothers without judgment on one another.

So moving forward Bill ,isnt God good, giving us his one and only son. Glory to God!!!

That would be moving backwards. We aleady agree on that. Christians are supposed to resolve their differences, or at least understand them.

I don't know what problems you have with my assertions. Please, where I am in err, correct me according to your interpretation of scripture. Can you do this? If not, please consider that my position might be the correct one, instead of posting the articles I've already seen from you and coconut.

In fact, looking back. It seems that you've argued almost exclusively from prewritten material that had nothing to do with my statements or the conversation in which the other posters were involved.

You have expressed vehiment opposition to me as a preterist, even though I asked for no such discourse. So, pay the piper, and answer me. You can't post lies (intentionally or not), calling someone a tool of the devil who is outside of Christ and then simply cut off the conversation, saying 'Praise the Lord, brother'.

Take my posts, and read them. All I ask is that you tell me what YOU think of my reasoning, honestly and peacefully. I'm not your enemy.

Do you think that I've adequately portrayed the scriptures? Why or why not?

At the very least, either retract and apologize for the labels of heresy (and other less than flattering phrases), or attempt to justify them.

Don't just try to flee without your words being called to account. That's not what a soldier does.
----------------------------------

To anyone else who posted, I will try to reply to any more neglected questions or comments tomorrow. If I miss anything, let me know. Every one is important, though I must first defend my integrity.

God bless
-Bill

 

[Shaggy Flasko]

"Healthy discussions are great and a way to learn and grow, So Remember speak the truth in Love.(Thank you to those who are trying to keep the peace)"

Thank you for keeping things in check. I will keep this in mind. I hope we can always speak with love, from the scriptures alone. After all, we're brothers in Christ.

God bless
-Bill

 

[Ninja Monkey]

Seriously guys, I see a lot of hostility towards Shaggy for trying to have a friendly theological discussion. Don't you see this is possibly the primary reason the Church has been failing so miserably as of late? When we're confronted with an idea that doesn't perfectly line up with our theology, we cry "heresy" and never speak of it again. Then along comes Mr. Aetheist saying, "God can't be real because blah blah blah." And all we have to say is, "Uh, well, that's just like your oppinion, man."
So you see what I mean? You can't show the world what you believe until you know why you believe it. And so far, many of you have yet to show any such reason.
So what if you believe Christ is yet to come and Shaggy believes he's already here? Or say your a Calvinist and the other guy's an Armenean? The bottom line is that we are all human, so every one of us has flaws in our beliefs. But if the Church would only unite on the cornerstone of Christ, and learn to discuss everything else in a rational manner, we would become so much more effective than the divided mess we are today. We're all God's children through Christ, so start acting like it!
Prov 27:17 "Iron sharpeneth iron; So a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."

By the way, the name of the book Shaggy asked about three pages ago is "No Fear of the Storm." I guess it isn't very popular.

 

[Shaggy Flasko]

Hi sparky, sorry I didn't reply sooner. I guess I got distracted. Don't worry, you've not been forgotten. After all, I did say that I'd answer yalls questions, to the best of my ability.

Ok,im gently massaging my brain whilst trying to understand all these posts.Until this thread i had never heard of a preterist.Am i right in thinking their veiw is that all bible prophecy has been fulfilled?

Yeah, I know it’s a lot to consume. Take your time, so that you should come to a full understanding and will not be mislead or unjustly biased for or against it. Scripture alone holds the answers.

You’re right in saying that preterists believe that all Biblical prophecy is fulfilled. There are partial-preterists, such as R.C. Sproul and Hank Hannigraff (sp?) that believe AD 70 did have major prophetic significance as far as Christ’s judgment on Jerusalem (the apostate, carnal nation of Israel), but also believe in a future second coming. However, I feel that these men must account for the same things that futurism must account for, Christ’s and the apostles’ teaching on the nature and timing of his Parousia.

If this is the case here are some scriptures that im pretty sure have not seen fulfillment yet:

Ok, I’ll see what I can do. Even though I’m sure I can’t wrap up every detail, I hope I can help to enhance your understanding of preterist thought.

Keep in mind, however, there aren’t two preterists in America that agree on everything. Every one is different, so be sure to become familiar with a person’s views before trying to debate. Now, let’s get down to business (I’ll be using the KJV). :shade:

1 Thessalonians 5:3

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This is a huge topic and is related to every other aspect of the Parousia. Therefore, I will spend a considerable amount of time on it. Sorry if this means I won't be able to finish with your question sooner, but I think it's necessary.

Well, let’s establish who “they” is referring to. Most of Christ’s prediction on judgment in the New Testament revolved around the (carnal) nation of Israel, with Jerusalem at its head. In my studies, I’ve only found predictions of Christ coming in judgment on those people of that generation.

Let’s look at a few of the “judgment” verses and how they relate to the second coming. There are more, but these are the most telling, in my opinion.

In Christ’s speech to the disciples, he makes this statement.

Matthew 10:13-15 - 13And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Now, the disciples’ instructions were to only go to the cities of Israel in their ministry. Thus, in the Day of Judgment, whoever rejected the message of Christ in the cities of Israel would meet their doom in even a more terrific way than Sodom and Gomorrah. This is the earliest, more emphatic statement of Christ’s judgment on the nation of Israel. This is Christ’s simple promise.

Let’s move on, and keep this verse in mind as we proceed.


The whole chapter of Matthew 23 is blatant in Christ’s condemnation of the leaders of the old covenant Jewish economy, but I’d like to look specifically at the culmination of his words at that time.

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Christ’s words are simple, they need no additional commentary but from other scriptures.

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Christ has only moments ago finished proclaiming that the house of Israel would be left desolate and he makes a stunning prophecy.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

This is especially interesting in light of his prediction.

36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

So, his judgment would come upon the Jews of that generation. Their house would be left unto them desolate, their standing with God cast down, and their temple would be destroyed.

It is not acceptable to separate these speeches simply according to the chapter. They are continuous and undivided.

In response to Christ’s proclamation, that “verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”, they ask “when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

I’ll skip ahead a bit, but you should go back and read through Matthew 23, 24 and 25 for more extensive context on Christ’s words.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As I’ve noted before, this apocalyptic language was common in God’s prophetic judgment on nations and peoples of the Old Testament. Look at Isaiah 13:10, 13 for a good example. I’ve cited others above.

Continuing…

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This generation shall not pass. Note that this is given in exactly the same way as his earlier statement, “all these things shall come upon this generation”.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
This is a very interesting passage. We must ask ourselves, what happened in the days of Noah? He tells us in verse 38.
I’d like to make a comparison here. In the days of Noah, God cut off the wicked from among the just, sparing Noah and taking the evil men.
I’d like to point out the striking similarity of this portion of the discourse with both the parable of the tares and the wheat (Matthew 13:24-30) and the parable of the drag-net (13:47-50). It is clear that Christ intended upon cutting off the wicked from the good, the unrepentant Jews from the true Jews of the circumcision of the Heart (Romans 2).
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Compare 2 Peter
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

This is the reason for the Jewish persecution of the Christians, because Christ had not fulfilled his judgment on that generation. That's exactly what his coming would mean, judgment and the desolation of the house of Israel. His judgment had not yet occured, so the Jews continued their persecution of the Christians, filling up the measure of their fathers. These scoffers were the Jews.

Back to Matthew 24...

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is obvious, in light of Christ's previous statements of judgment. Who else could be spoken of here but God's wicked servants, the apostate carnal Jews, and God's good servants, the church, the children of Abraham according to promise?

The parables in the opening of chapter 25 are simply an illustration of what Christ has already said. He would come to bless the faithful servants and destroy the unfaithful ones. I won't go into these in depth, but you should examine them.

In Ciaphas' examination of Christ, we see the final declaration of judgment from our Lord's lips.

59Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

60But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,

61And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

62And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

63But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

This is perfectly relevent to the last three chapters. Not only would Christ bring judgment on that generation, on the unfaithful Jews guilty of persecuting his Church, but Ciaphas himself would see Christ coming on the clouds of heaven.

Jim Wade wrote an interesting article on this subject. If you want to, you can read it here

Now, with reference to the last days, I think I should mention Revelation. Just as old Israel was the object of Christ's judgment, so was it witnessed in John's revelation.

Let's look at the Harlot, for a moment.

Turn to Revelation 11 and 17-18. I will merely point out some noteworthy similarities since I don't have the time for a thorough exegetical analysis, right now.

The most prominent and obvious are...
Israel was often referred to as the wife of God (Jeremiah 2:2, 3:14, Isaiah 54:5) and also unfaithful (Jeremiah 3:20, Hosea 1:2, Ezekiel 6:9, Ezekiel 16, Isaiah 50:1), for she behaved as a prostitute (Jeremiah 3:1-2). Especially clear is
Isaiah 1:21 - How is the faithful city become an harlot!

She fills herself with the blood of the prophets and the saints. (Rev. 16:6, 17:6, 18:20, 24; compare with Matt. 23:37 and Acts 7:52)

She is the Great City where the Lord was crucified (11:8). The Great City is used clearly for Jerusalem. It's use in later chapters (17:18, 18:10, 16, 19, 21) makes it clear that the ***** represents Jerusalem, the mother and capital of Israel and, as the temple dwelt there, a symbol of Israel's favor with God.

Note, also, the reference in 11:8 -
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

I find it interesting that John refers to sodom and egypt here, both which came under catastrphic judgment for their rebellion against God and rejecting his prophets. How much more would Jerusalem (the Jews) come under judgment for rejecting and killing the very son of God, their Lord himself?

At first glance (this is just my opinion), this reference seems to convey the symbolism of Sodom's immorality and Egypts Idolatry (note also, Matthew 10:13-15). This is clearer in the description of the Harlot, in chapters 17-18.

Now, going back to the original verse...

1 Thessalonians 5:3 - For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

...we see that the author refers to those Jews who participated in the persecution of the church. Destruction would come suddenly on them and they would be consumed (Matt. 24:38-41).

So, in answer to your question, I believe this verse was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem and in God's judgment on the apostate Jews at AD 70. That’s when the temple was destroyed and when the Great City, the Harlot, was destroyed.

I hope this has been thought provoking. I've done my best to put forth a clear, relevent, reasonable and honest affirmation of scripture. If you wish to discuss this further, let me know.

I'll end this, for now, and examine the rest of the scriptures you cited. Verily, there are some reading this who shall not taste death before I reply.

But seriously, I hope they don’t all wind up this long. I know I’ll learn a lot from researching the passages you brought up,, hopefully both of us will, but this thread is going to end up being about a million pages long! Though, I guess that's what it takes to prove a point.

Let me know what you think, or if there's a way I could better organize these posts.

God bless!
-Bill

 

[jiggyfly]

lane: I traveled across the world. I searched with no crevace unchecked. :mobile_ph I called everyone and noone new. :money: I offered money, please tell me where? No one would. Im still looking today and cant seem to find the end to this thread. God bless all. Take it lightly

LOL it is kinda long isn't it.

 

[Coconut]

lane: I traveled across the world. I searched with no crevace unchecked. :mobile_ph I called everyone and noone new. :money: I offered money, please tell me where? No one would. Im still looking today and cant seem to find the end to this thread. God bless all. Take it lightly

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!! HEAR HEAR SOLDIER! :lightning

 

[Coconut]

Seriously guys, I see a lot of hostility towards Shaggy for trying to have a friendly theological discussion. Don't you see this is possibly the primary reason the Church has been failing so miserably as of late? When we're confronted with an idea that doesn't perfectly line up with our theology, we cry "heresy" and never speak of it again.

I see the reinforcements have arrived. Sorry Ninja, no ones falling for the old
"dumb it down with me, or you are dumb" line. Nor is it hostile
to say i`m not interested in what you are trying to dish out.
Prederism is a heresy that has roots in nearly every cult that ever
existed. Prederists do not believe in the future return of Christ. Preterists base thier false teaching on portions of the Book, and throw the rest of the Book out like yesterdays newspaper. As far as I`m concerned anyone who believes Jesus Christ has already came has their heads on backwards.
Paul did`nt put up with this teaching for one minute! Because I love the truth, I speak the truth.

Anybody who denies the future bodily return of our Lord Jesus Christ, or the future resurrection of the bodies of believers since 70AD has denied the faith.

And oh by the way, the Church i`m in is not failing miserably, it`s the Church triumphant, and it`s alive and well! The gates of hell will not prevail againt the Church! Glory to God.

 

[Ninja Monkey]

I traveled across the world. I searched with no crevace unchecked. I called everyone and noone new. I offered money, please tell me where? No one would. Im still looking today and cant seem to find the end to this thread. God bless all. Take it lightly

You know, we only keep defending ourselves because you guys keep attacking us.

Prederism is a heresy that has roots in nearly every cult that ever existed.

Nearly every cult that has ever existed was rooted in rejection of Christ as God. Preterists, on the other hand, believe very strongly that Christ is God, and that salvation comes only through his sacrifice and resurection.

Preterists base thier false teaching on portions of the Book, and throw the rest of the Book out like yesterdays newspaper.

Such as?

And oh by the way, the Church i`m in is not failing miserably, it`s the Church triumphant, and it`s alive and well! The gates of hell will not prevail againt the Church!

By "failing miserably," I just meant our innability to face all these attacks against Christianity over the past several decades or so. You've seen it when the courts ruled that only evolution could be taught in our schools, or the success of gay rights activists. I apologize if I gave the impression that these failures on our behalf were any more than a bump in the road of glorious victory, since the true kingdom of God is invincible, even when we don't represent it as so. My bad.

 

[Shaggy Flasko]

Healthy discussions are great and a way to learn and grow, So Remember speak the truth in Love.

I think we should all start posting this quote at the top of our replies, so that we don't forget.

Im still looking today and cant seem to find the end to this thread. God bless all. Take it lightly

If you have any questions (I assume you will), I'll do my best to answer them in a scripturally satisfying way.

Hey, if someone has a question, I'm glad to answer it. Also, if I answer a question, I'm going to put as much scriptural support for my answer as possible.

With all due respect, this thread isn't just about you. You can stay or leave, but others of us were having a rather nice discussion without all the blind assault on my reputation that's been going on. If you want to talk, let's talk. If you want to pontificate what we should all believe without supporting your arguments, go somewhere else.

Preterists base thier false teaching on portions of the Book, and throw the rest of the Book out like yesterdays newspaper.

Dude, if you want to condemn preterism, do it scripturally and don't ignore everything I say. What you're saying isn't truth, but slander, because you're not basing it on scripture. Prove it. I'm sick of all this ignorant rhetoric.

Do you know why Paul condemned Hymen and Phil? It was because the resurrection had not occurred. The believers had not been delivered from their tribulation (under the Jewish and Roman persecution). If the resurrection (and, therefore, the Parousia) had already taken place before AD 70, then the Christians of the time had no deliverance to anticipate. That's why Hymen and Phil were condemned and why they overthrew the faith of some.

To where did the first-century Christians look for deliverance?
2 Thessalonians 1 -
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

They sought deliverance in Christ's return.

By the way, the Hymenaeus verse is the only passage to which I've seen you refer (oh, and also 2 Peter 3:10), both of which I've already dealt with, by scripture and logic. Compare our posts, and see who bases their argument on just a few poorly interpreted passages.

Because I love the truth, I speak the truth.

Do you know the truth? All truth comes from scripture, so speak scripture, properly interpreted and relevant.

If you're going to say that I'm not a Christian, you're going to have to prove it in a very convincing way. Part of discourse is, apart from putting forth your own argument, considering the other person's argument and commentary on your own argument. If you're not willing to consider my words, then you have no right to comment on my position.

I'm still open to a polite, scriptural and loving discussion with you, Soldier of God and coconut. It's up to yall to decide whether it will happen.

sparky, I'm studying your passages. Thanks for the homework! I'm still rather young, so I havn't become much of an expert on the Old Testament, yet. I'll put forth a timely reply on the passages in Ezekiel and such (can't remember exactly what they were), but I won't try to answer just with my own conjecture. That would be silly!

Did my previous post answer your question on Thessalonians? I'd sure like your comments, if you want to give your thoughts.

God bless
-Bill

PS (Soldier of God and coconut) - At the very least, either retract and apologize for the labels of heresy (and other less than flattering phrases), or attempt to justify them. I do not take this matter lightly.

 

[Coconut]

Jesus Christ is coming. He is on the way now. He will come in the future. He will come personally, bodily, and visibly. He comes quickly. His coming is near. We live daily in the expectation of Him. His coming is our hope.
Since we are saved by hope, according to Romans 8:24, preterism presumes to strip us of salvation. I also do not take it lightly when a 'mans' teaching would attempt to take away the hope of God`s people, both the living and the dead, no matter how much you cry ignorance or slander! Please take these profane and vain babblings elsewhere.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

In the words of John Knox: I neither dare nor will cease now by my pen (be it ever so rude) to cry unto you that which sometimes, from the mouth of my Master Jesus Christ, I have pronounced in the hearing of many!

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

 

[TDS52]

The CHURCH- The Bride of Christ is going up when the shout comes from the Lord Jesus, Himself. We will rise, be reunited with our loved ones in the clouds, meet the LORD in the air, and will forever be with the LORD. This is comfort to the souls of each born again believer and an event that hasn't taken place yet. There are many verses in the Bible that contain prophesy where a portion of that verse has been fulfilled, but not the entire verse. Sometimes, it is just distinguished by a simple thing as a mark of punctuation.

 

[Jesuslovesu]

Boy not only do my eyes hurt but so does my head... Ok I am wondering who is Hymen and Bill?( sorry if I did names wrong)

I cant do that qoute post thing because I dont know how(dont laugh at me lol)...

Well I want to say I dont agree with you Shaggy but I want to say that it is mostl because I dont read the scripture the same way you are interperting it,

I will not judge you or talk meanly to you. I do want you to understand though I dont think we will agree (unless you change your mind )but that does not mean I can not be nice to you.

Ok I am very confused by what you are speaking of . Plain and simple.God Bless You

 

[cranquar]

Oh, this thread...

Oh, this thread, this thread, this thread.
What can be said, said, and said:

We are one because we hold up Jesus in our hearts, minds, and souls.

We are one because we strive to live right so as to please our Creator, and to be a light unto others.

We are one because we understand the principle of love to be above all other principles, and we know love is the law set before us by Christ.

Knowledge of what is of good, or what is of evil spoken outside of love is in itself a sin that can cause one to falter. For example: Moses was not allowed to cross over into the Promised Land because of his manner of speaking to others. In spite of the truth that he believed to speak, as it was outside of the boundaries of love, it was not pleasing to God.

As believers in Jesus, we understand that though we may have sinned, we are given open opportunity to repent, and we are given open opportunity to forgive. Let those here who need to repent, repent. Let those here who need to forgive, forgive.

For the record, I believe what was in the past, is in the past. What is in the future is in the future. What we do now is not to be determined by whether Jesus has returned, not to return again, or whether he is yet to return. Jesus’ spirit is here with us now. He is available to us through prayer in the spirit, and through his spirit revealed in his teachings in the Holy Bible.

My understanding is right now, Jesus expects his followers to do his good works, by continuing to study and practice his teachings. To me those who have no focus to learn how to do the works of Christ, (heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, rule the winds, and to lead others towards God), are truly being sidetracked, and maybe even tricked by the devil by deception, and, or through the worries and the pleasures of this world.

However, I am not concerned to point out each other’s shortcomings. I rather take pleasure in that which we share even now; which is the special love of God towards those who earnestly seek His wisdom.

Let us thus take care of each other and work to employ God’s wisdom. Let us love one another with joy and, or longsuffering through and throughout. Let us be an example to others of God’s Fatherly love.

Love always,

Cynthia

 

[Chad]

Its true no evil shall enter there - So look at all the wickness in the world today - By what was just quoted we can see there is no way we are living in New Jerusalem

My GOD amen to that! How blind can a person possibly be and this deceived to think that we actually live in the new Jerusalem?

Disgusting!

WAKE UP AND LOOK OUTISDE THE ROCK YOU LIVE UNDER!

I am yelling at anyone who thinks such a wicked, heretical and rather mind blowing stupid assumption that we live in "new jerusalem" now.

Forget all this junk and nonsense about "traditions" and such idiotic group names like "preterist", "mormons" blah blah and hellful more blahs. STICK WITH CALLING YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN AND NOTHING ELSE! Seriously, get your head out of the world's gutter and look at Scripture alone.

We do NOT live in new jersusalem, Christ did NOT come back (are you serious or just plain evil on purpose?)

Scripture is Truth. Plain and simple. Do not add, take away or change anything

Revelation 22:17-19 (New International Version)

17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


I'm warning anyone who comes to my site, do not break that above commandment from GOD Himself. If you do, go away because I will not tolerate ANYONE who preaches stupidity and evil things.

GOD spoke, you listen.

 

[Fellowservant]

if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy[/B], God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Amen Brother Chad... :thumbs_up

I see what Preterist are believing in here...but it just does'nt fit. Jesus also said that salvation was of the Jews, and i am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But that did'nt mean salvation was not going to come to the Gentiles. (the grafting in of the Gentiles to be saved also) so there is the problem i guess. Preterist seem to take all what Christ said to the Jew at face value...not considering the plan of God Almighty both for the Jew and Gentile (the dispensation of grace) spoken of by Paul...and of course we also have the Holy Spirit sent by God as a kingdom in us now. But remember, it is not finished yet, this kingdom will be delivered up to God at the end of this age.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he (Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

So the best we can do, is pray that God would show them a way out of this horrible teaching. Like maybe become a dispensationalist...its the only way out for Preterist, that i can see...

God bless you all

 

[Shaggy Flasko]

Ya know what I almost forgot?

Healthy discussions are great and a way to learn and grow, So Remember speak the truth in Love.

That was posted by the moderator jjkirk. Thanks, brother.

Gosh, I'm getting swamped with these replies. I suppose I'll just take a few of them to reply.

My GOD amen to that! How blind can a person possibly be and this deceived to think that we actually live in the new Jerusalem?

Disgusting!

WAKE UP AND LOOK OUTISDE THE ROCK YOU LIVE UNDER!

What should I look at, current events? Should I use the world around me to interpret scripture?

I am yelling at anyone who thinks such a wicked, heretical and rather mind blowing stupid assumption that we live in "new jerusalem" now.

It's the church, not the world. No evil shall ever enter the God's holy (spiritual) city.

Forget all this junk and nonsense about "traditions" and such idiotic group names like "preterist", "mormons" blah blah and hellful more blahs. STICK WITH CALLING YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN AND NOTHING ELSE! Seriously, get your head out of the world's gutter and look at Scripture alone.

The names only cause division if we make them cause division. I only use them to communicate, not to condemn my brothers. Why are you yelling?

We do NOT live in new jersusalem, Christ did NOT come back (are you serious or just plain evil on purpose?)

Prove it from scripture and tell me where I'm wrong in what I've spoken. Refute my interpretation of the scriptures and tell me how I should interpret them. Please don't just scream, "You're wrong! HERETIC!!!" That's really all most of you people have been doing. I really don't enjoy it.

Scripture is Truth. Plain and simple. Do not add, take away or change anything

I choose to interpret scripture by scripture alone. Are you looking to current events to interpret scripture? Come to think of it, I don't remember Paul ever teaching a "dispensation of grace" or that Christ would "tarry". I do remember Christ's promises, and Paul's promises, which I've already cited many times over, that yall seem to be ignoring. Who's adding to the scriptures? Who's taking away from them?

Mabye you only seek not to change your own beliefs, to the point that you instantly react with disgust and hatred to anything that disagrees with you.

17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Amen. Let's take scripture alone. Stop telling me to look at the world to prove your point. The world is not the interpreter of scripture.

I'm warning anyone who comes to my site, do not break that above commandment from GOD Himself. If you do, go away because I will not tolerate ANYONE who preaches stupidity and evil things.

I'm stating that Christ was correct in everything he said, that Christ and the apostles had the correct expectations and teaching. I'm also not finding any support for a delay in his coming. That's not stupid or evil.

Come on, you were so nice before.

As far as you going to hell, no one has the right to say but GOD. If you love and accept Jesus Christ and SCRIPTURE as told by GOD and not any "ism's" than you are saved.

Where's the love, now?

GOD spoke, you listen.

I listen only to scripture and reason. Tell me where I'm wrong.

Ok I am wondering who is Hymen and Bill?

I was just referring to Hymenaeus and Philetus from 2 Timothy, concerning the "Hymenean Heresy".

Fellow Servant, prove from scripture that Christ has not returned, and did not teach that he would return within and to that generation.

Guys if you have a problem with what I'm saying, stop parroting what you've been indoctrinated with and show me (with love, if it's not too hard) where I'm wrong and how I should better interpret the scriptures I've cited.

If you can't/won't disprove (though I have no reason to think anyone's even read my posts) the scriptures I've put forth, then why should I listen to any of this? Try this. Just take one of my posts, perhaps one in response to the "Hymenean Heresy" or that the object of Christ's judgment at his parousia was on the carnal nation of Israel or even Christ's simple statements in the gospels or that the resurrection is a spiritual one or that Christ didn't intend to come literally on the clouds, and take them piece by piece, disproving with scripture what I've said.

Cynthia and Jesuslovesu, God bless yall. You truly have a Christian attitude. Let us study to show ourselves approved.