This is probably the most clear and scripture intensive of all of them.
This is my page 4 reply to sparky
Hi sparky, sorry I didn't reply sooner. I guess I got distracted. Don't worry, you've not been forgotten. After all, I
did say that I'd answer yalls questions, to the best of my ability.
Ok,im gently massaging my brain whilst trying to understand all these posts.Until this thread i had never heard of a preterist.Am i right in thinking their veiw is that all bible prophecy has been fulfilled?
Yeah, I know it’s a lot to consume. Take your time, so that you should come to a full understanding and will not be mislead or unjustly biased for or against it. Scripture alone holds the answers.
You’re right in saying that preterists believe that all Biblical prophecy is fulfilled. There are partial-preterists, such as R.C. Sproul and Hank Hannigraff (sp?) that believe AD 70 did have major prophetic significance as far as Christ’s judgment on Jerusalem (the apostate, carnal nation of Israel), but also believe in a future second coming. However, I feel that these men must account for the same things that futurism must account for, Christ’s and the apostles’ teaching on the nature and timing of his Parousia.
If this is the case here are some scriptures that im pretty sure have not seen fulfillment yet:
Ok, I’ll see what I can do. Even though I’m sure I can’t wrap up every detail, I hope I can help to enhance your understanding of preterist thought.
Keep in mind, however, there aren’t two preterists in America that agree on everything. Every one is different, so be sure to become familiar with a person’s views before trying to debate. Now, let’s get down to business (I’ll be using the KJV). :shade:
1 Thessalonians 5:3
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
This is a huge topic and is related to every other aspect of the Parousia. Therefore, I will spend a considerable amount of time on it. Sorry if this means I won't be able to finish with your question sooner, but I think it's necessary.
Well, let’s establish who “they” is referring to. Most of Christ’s prediction on judgment in the New Testament revolved around the (carnal) nation of Israel, with Jerusalem at its head. In my studies, I’ve only found predictions of Christ coming in judgment on those people of that generation.
Let’s look at a few of the “judgment” verses and how they relate to the second coming. There are more, but these are the most telling, in my opinion.
In Christ’s speech to the disciples, he makes this statement.
Matthew 10:13-15 - 13And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Now, the disciples’ instructions were to only go to the cities of Israel in their ministry. Thus, in the Day of Judgment, whoever rejected the message of Christ in the cities of Israel would meet their doom in even a more terrific way than Sodom and Gomorrah. This is the earliest, more emphatic statement of Christ’s judgment on the nation of Israel. This is Christ’s simple promise.
Let’s move on, and keep this verse in mind as we proceed.
The whole chapter of Matthew 23 is blatant in Christ’s condemnation of the leaders of the old covenant Jewish economy, but I’d like to look specifically at the culmination of his words at that time.
30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Christ’s words are simple, they need no additional commentary but from other scriptures.
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Christ has only moments ago finished proclaiming that the house of Israel would be left desolate and he makes a stunning prophecy.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
This is especially interesting in light of his prediction.
36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
So, his judgment would come upon the Jews of that generation. Their house would be left unto them desolate, their standing with God cast down, and their temple would be destroyed.
It is not acceptable to separate these speeches simply according to the chapter. They are continuous and undivided.
In response to Christ’s proclamation, that “verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”, they ask “when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
I’ll skip ahead a bit, but you should go back and read through Matthew 23, 24 and 25 for more extensive context on Christ’s words.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
As I’ve noted before, this apocalyptic language was common in God’s prophetic judgment on nations and peoples of the Old Testament. Look at Isaiah 13:10, 13 for a good example. I’ve cited others above.
Continuing…
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
This generation shall not pass. Note that this is given in exactly the same way as his earlier statement, “all these things shall come upon this generation”.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
This is a very interesting passage. We must ask ourselves, what happened in the days of Noah? He tells us in verse 38.
I’d like to make a comparison here. In the days of Noah, God cut off the wicked from among the just, sparing Noah and taking the evil men.
I’d like to point out the striking similarity of this portion of the discourse with both the parable of the tares and the wheat (Matthew 13:24-30) and the parable of the drag-net (13:47-50). It is clear that Christ intended upon cutting off the wicked from the good, the unrepentant Jews from the true Jews of the circumcision of the Heart (Romans 2).
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Compare 2 Peter
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
This is the reason for the Jewish persecution of the Christians, because Christ had not fulfilled his judgment on that generation. That's exactly what his coming would mean, judgment and the desolation of the house of Israel. His judgment had not yet occured, so the Jews continued their persecution of the Christians, filling up the measure of their fathers. These scoffers were the Jews.
Back to Matthew 24...
46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This is obvious, in light of Christ's previous statements of judgment. Who else could be spoken of here but God's wicked servants, the apostate carnal Jews, and God's good servants, the church, the children of Abraham according to promise?
The parables in the opening of chapter 25 are simply an illustration of what Christ has already said. He would come to bless the faithful servants and destroy the unfaithful ones. I won't go into these in depth, but you should examine them.
In Ciaphas' examination of Christ, we see the final declaration of judgment from our Lord's lips.
59Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
60But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
61And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
62And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
This is perfectly relevent to the last three chapters. Not only would Christ bring judgment on that generation, on the unfaithful Jews guilty of persecuting his Church, but Ciaphas himself would see Christ coming on the clouds of heaven.
Jim Wade wrote an interesting article on this subject. If you want to, you can read it
here
Now, with reference to the last days, I think I should mention Revelation. Just as old Israel was the object of Christ's judgment, so was it witnessed in John's revelation.
Let's look at the Harlot, for a moment.
Turn to Revelation 11 and 17-18. I will merely point out some noteworthy similarities since I don't have the time for a thorough exegetical analysis, right now.
The most prominent and obvious are...
Israel was often referred to as the wife of God (Jeremiah 2:2, 3:14, Isaiah 54:5) and also unfaithful (Jeremiah 3:20, Hosea 1:2, Ezekiel 6:9, Ezekiel 16, Isaiah 50:1), for she behaved as a prostitute (Jeremiah 3:1-2). Especially clear is
Isaiah 1:21 - How is the faithful city become an harlot!
She fills herself with the blood of the prophets and the saints. (Rev. 16:6, 17:6, 18:20, 24; compare with Matt. 23:37 and Acts 7:52)
She is the Great City where the Lord was crucified (11:8). The Great City is used clearly for Jerusalem. It's use in later chapters (17:18, 18:10, 16, 19, 21) makes it clear that the ***** represents Jerusalem, the mother and capital of Israel and, as the temple dwelt there, a symbol of Israel's favor with God.
Note, also, the reference in 11:8 -
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
I find it interesting that John refers to sodom and egypt here, both which came under catastrphic judgment for their rebellion against God and rejecting his prophets. How much more would Jerusalem (the Jews) come under judgment for rejecting and killing the very son of God, their Lord himself?
At first glance (this is just my opinion), this reference seems to convey the symbolism of Sodom's immorality and Egypts Idolatry (note also, Matthew 10:13-15). This is clearer in the description of the Harlot, in chapters 17-18.
Now, going back to the original verse...
1 Thessalonians 5:3 - For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
...we see that the author refers to those Jews who participated in the persecution of the church. Destruction would come suddenly on them and they would be consumed (Matt. 24:38-41).
So, in answer to your question, I believe this verse was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem and in God's judgment on the apostate Jews at AD 70. That’s when the temple was destroyed and when the Great City, the Harlot, was destroyed.
I hope this has been thought provoking. I've done my best to put forth a clear, relevent, reasonable and honest affirmation of scripture. If you wish to discuss this further, let me know.
I'll end this, for now, and examine the rest of the scriptures you cited. Verily, there are some reading this who shall not taste death before I reply.
This is my page 5 reply to sparky.
ezekiel 38v14-19
Gee, I don’t know, exactly. But, I’d have to say that it would be in that generation, according to Christ and Paul. As to how, I’ve not studied that, yet.
daniel 2v44
44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.
A Kingdom that will endure forever and always is left to God’s people (2 Peter 1:11, Luke 21:22)? This sounds like the Kingdom of God, to be brought forth at Christ’s return.
revelation 20v1-3
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
Many people see the binding of the dragon as relating to Christ’s death on the Cross. While Christ’s death bound Satan for a time, he would be released for a short time, supposedly during the last few years before the Parousia to incite the falling away of many Christians before the consummation of Christ’s judgment. I’ve not settled on this, though. I usually have trouble with prophetic books, since they take so much interpretation and knowledge of the scriptures that I’ve not yet acquired. I don’t understand significance of the millennium, yet.
john 5v 28,29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The resurrection was to be fulfilled at Christ’s Parousia (1 Thessalonians 4). Christ’s Parousia was to occur before that generation had passed away (Matt. 10, 16, 23-25). Indeed, they were living in the “last days” (Acts 2:8 ff.) and Christ would not tarry (Hebrews 10:37).
I think Paul gives an excellent explanation of the resurrection. Look at 1 Corinthians 15.
One interesting point, in the Old Testament, the Hebrew word “sheol”, which means “unseen”, was rendered grave (along with “hell” and “the pit”). It was often used simply to refer to death, as well as national judgments. I don’t know how relevant this is to the Greek New Testament, but it’s an interesting sidenote.
revelation 21v3,4
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
This is just like John 5.
Jeremiah 31:31-33 - 31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
There are only two covenants with Israel. The first one was with the carnal nation, but the second (Romans 1:16; 2; 8-11) one would be with the New Israel of the gentiles and the Jews (Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11). Also, look at Luke 17:21.
Since the Old Covenant was still in force before Christ’s Parousia (Hebrews 8:13), they were looking for the New Covenant, which is briefly described by Jeremiah above, which would come within that generation, soon, in a very little while.
Hmm, I hope that’s clear. I have to go, but if you’d like further elaboration, ask some questions. Let me know your thoughts, sparky.
I still need to do lots of study, especially on the Old Testament prophecies. It’s lots of fun.
[One thing that I find interesting regarding the Old Testament prophecies of Israel is Galatians 3:28 -
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.]
There, in my opinion, is my most significant support. The base of my arguments is scripture. Refute them from scripture.
Again, these are just my old posts. Didn't you read them before calling me a heretic? Are you considering banning me without even knowing what I believe and why?
scripture alone...
God bless
-Bill
