The fires of hell

[KingJ]

Hi all, just looking for a light hearted discussion on the fires of hell.

I have been praying on this a lot lately and feel the Lord has helped me with some insight on the topic.

Just to set the scene. Burning in fire as we know it, is torture. God is good, not wicked. As such the fire has to be something other then a brazen bull type scenario. God is good Psalm 136:1, God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

So, how does a good God escape judgement of being wicked when he places sinners in fire for all eternity. That is the question.

One would think a short session in a fire be fine. Like one second for every sin, capped at ten minutes. Something like the beating Jesus endured, just replaced with fire. Burning anyone longer then ten minutes is wicked, fact. Heck, perhaps even one minute?

Yet scripture does not give us wiggle room. It says fire, eternal and calls the home of the wicked a lake of fire. Fire is not going away.

I believe God has shown me what the fire is and why it is there.......

Those in hell go on in sin. That is why they are separated from us in heaven. We in heaven repent and have Jesus as our cover from punishment for sin. Those in hell don't. They will sin today, tomorrow, next week, next year and continue in sin for all eternity. Never truly desire repentance. Never truly hate what is evil.

The fires of hell are linked to sin. They cannot be quenched because sin never ceases. It is a literal fire but a different kind of fire. One that the person suffering is aware of, but yet it is not at a degree where they are screaming in pain.

The rich man held a conversation and asked only for a drop of water on their tongue Luke 16:19-31. People in hell weep and gnash their teeth because they are cast out of heaven Luke 13:28, not because they are on fire.

So, in conclusion, the fire is not ''God's punishment'' on the wicked. I believe it is more a natural consequence of one's sin. Somehow linked to their sin. God's punishment on the wicked is Him separating them from Him and the righteous and perhaps a momentary punishment matching one's sin, like the beating of Jesus for example.

All thoughts welcome, please keep it peaceful.

Nobody truly knows, but what we do know is that God is good yesterday, today and tomorrow. So, please consider how a good God remains good when explaining fires of hell to anyone.

 

[KingJ]

I have to bump this. I really want someone to have a stab at proving God good whilst explaining the fires of hell.

This is one of the most important topics discussed among my atheist family and friends. As Christians we should all have a scriptural answer ready. Just saying ''God will burn you alive for all eternity'' does simply not cut it any longer. Preachers cannot get away with painting God as wicked. The resistance to this type of teaching is not from outside the church but from inside and it is not from sinners or fake Christians inside. I can see how many would believe that. There is a movement within the church away from the topic of hell (sinners who want to stay in sin and be called Christians), then there is a movement (of which I am a part of) which simply seeks to better explain the controversial topic that many preachers in the past have just terribly miss-taught.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Hi all, just looking for a light hearted discussion on the fires of hell.

I have been praying on this a lot lately and feel the Lord has helped me with some insight on the topic.

Just to set the scene. Burning in fire as we know it, is torture. God is good, not wicked. As such the fire has to be something other then a brazen bull type scenario. God is good Psalm 136:1, God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

So, how does a good God escape judgement of being wicked when he places sinners in fire for all eternity. That is the question.

One would think a short session in a fire be fine. Like one second for every sin, capped at ten minutes. Something like the beating Jesus endured, just replaced with fire. Burning anyone longer then ten minutes is wicked, fact. Heck, perhaps even one minute?

Yet scripture does not give us wiggle room. It says fire, eternal and calls the home of the wicked a lake of fire. Fire is not going away.

I believe God has shown me what the fire is and why it is there.......

Those in hell go on in sin. That is why they are separated from us in heaven. We in heaven repent and have Jesus as our cover from punishment for sin. Those in hell don't. They will sin today, tomorrow, next week, next year and continue in sin for all eternity. Never truly desire repentance. Never truly hate what is evil.

The fires of hell are linked to sin. They cannot be quenched because sin never ceases. It is a literal fire but a different kind of fire. One that the person suffering is aware of, but yet it is not at a degree where they are screaming in pain.

The rich man held a conversation and asked only for a drop of water on their tongue Luke 16:19-31. People in hell weep and gnash their teeth because they are cast out of heaven Luke 13:28, not because they are on fire.

So, in conclusion, the fire is not ''God's punishment'' on the wicked. I believe it is more a natural consequence of one's sin. Somehow linked to their sin. God's punishment on the wicked is Him separating them from Him and the righteous and perhaps a momentary punishment matching one's sin, like the beating of Jesus for example.

All thoughts welcome, please keep it peaceful.

Nobody truly knows, but what we do know is that God is good yesterday, today and tomorrow. So, please consider how a good God remains good when explaining fires of hell to anyone.

Hey brother, Greetings.

You said light hearted and hell in the same sentence, ok. Is it possible to be light hearted about hell, or better yet, should we?
Ok let me jump in here and keep you company. Let's talk.

Anywho, So I think your statement is built on your definition of Good and Evil. And inferences based on that definition.


For me, what you are saying is the same as saying
(statement) police are good
(statement) jail is evil
(therefore) police can't send people to jail because that would be evil.

Correct?

 

[B-A-C]

The issue seems to be what is perceived as evil.

Killing and torturing are evil. Under most circumstances yes. But always.. no.

If you are in the military, and another nation is attacking your country. You kill and destroy the enemy.
You wouldn't be a good soldier if you didn't do this.
If you have children and a wife, and someone is harming them. You might not kill them, but they'll wish you had before it's over.
You wouldn't be a good husband/father if you didn't do this.
If a judge finds a serial killer, or rapist guilty, and doesn't put them in jail,
they wouldn't be a good judge.

Now maybe God loves those who teach false doctrines, lead people astray, and persecute His children.
But there are verses that say God loves some people more than He loves others. This isn't just a random thing. I like you, but I don't like him for no particular reason.
No, He gives reasons of why He loves some. Usually it has to do with obedience. ( Exod 20:6; Deut 5:10; John 14:21; John 15:10; 1 Jn 4:12; Rev 3:9; etc.. )

But if God doesn't punish those who are hurting His children, then He is not a good God.
If God doesn't punish those who reject His Son, then He is not a good Father.
If He doesn't punish those who refure to obey Him, then He is not a just judge.

The punishment needs to fit the crime, or God wouldn't be a good judge.
You caused millions of people to go to hell.. what should your punishment be?
You killed millions of my children, what should your punishment be?
You raped women and molested innocent children, what should your punishment be?

I can tell you, for the mother of that child or the husband of that wife, hell won't be hot enough, and eternity won't be long enough.
If I send my Son to do everything for you, pay your debt, take your place, and die for you... and you reject Him... there will Hell to pay.. literally.
He was beaten, whipped, mocked, and crucified for you. You think the Father won't punish those who reject this?

We can debate the "logic" of this again and again. Maybe this doesn't meet up with your standards and your logic.
But the plain and simple fact is... God is going to throw some people into the Lake of Fire to be tormented forever and ever. Rev 20:10; Rev 14:9-11; Matt 25:46;
Some people will go to everlasting punishment.

Rather than debate why God would or wouldn't do this. Take Him at His Word and scriptures, that say He "is" going to do this.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

The issue seems to be what is perceived as evil.

Killing and torturing are evil. Under most circumstances yes. But always.. no.

If you are in the military, and another nation is attacking your country. You kill and destroy the enemy.
You wouldn't be a good soldier if you didn't do this.
If you have children and a wife, and someone is harming them. You might not kill them, but they'll wish you had before it's over.
You wouldn't be a good husband/father if you didn't do this.
If a judge finds a serial killer, or rapist guilty, and doesn't put them in jail,
they wouldn't be a good judge.

Now maybe God loves those who teach false doctrines, lead people astray, and persecute His children.
But there are verses that say God loves some people more than He loves others. This isn't just a random thing. I like you, but I don't like him for no particular reason.
No, He gives reasons of why He loves some. Usually it has to do with obedience. ( Exod 20:6; Deut 5:10; John 14:21; John 15:10; 1 Jn 4:12; Rev 3:9; etc.. )

But if God doesn't punish those who are hurting His children, then He is not a good God.
If God doesn't punish those who reject His Son, then He is not a good Father.
If He doesn't punish those who refure to obey Him, then He is not a just judge.

The punishment needs to fit the crime, or God wouldn't be a good judge.
You caused millions of people to go to hell.. what should your punishment be?
You killed millions of my children, what should your punishment be?
You raped women and molested innocent children, what should your punishment be?

I can you, for the mother of that child or the husband of that wife, hell won't be hot enough, and eternity won't be long enough.
If I send my Son to do everything for you, pay your debt, take your place, and die for you... and you reject Him... there will Hell to pay.. literally.
He was beaten, whipped, mocked, and crucified for you. You think the Father won't punish those who reject this?

We can debate the "logic" of this again and again. Maybe this doesn't meet up with your standards and your logic.
But the plain and simple fact is... God is going to throw some people into the Lake of Fire to be tormented forever and ever. Rev 20:10; Rev 14:9-11; Matt 25:46;
Some people will go to everlasting punishment.

Rather than debate why God would or wouldn't do this. Take Him at His Word and scriptures, that say He "is" going to do this.

This is my point as well.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Rather than debate why God would or wouldn't do this. Take Him at His Word and scriptures, that say He "is" going to do this.

I like what you say here.

I have discussions with friends and you can't imagine how many times people say:

" I don't think God would...."
"I don't see God doing....."
"I don't believe........"
"Why would God........."

Instead of plainly looking at what God said.

But brother @B-A-C , correct me if I'm wrong as you know a great deal,
but isn't this why Jesus said "
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name
drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never
knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" Matthew 7:22-23

Is that so brother?

Meaning, many have an image of God in their minds but they don't truly know him.
Thus for many, Jesus will say " I never knew you" because their picture of who God is
which shapes their doctrine, is off from the truth. I'm not speaking specifically about @KingJ but
more broadly about the concept of how it is important to really know who Jesus is.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I like what you say here.

I have discussions with friends and you can't imagine how many times people say:

" I don't think God would...."
"I don't see God doing....."
"I don't believe........"
"Why would God........."

Instead of plainly looking at what God said.

But brother @B-A-C , correct me if I'm wrong as you know a great deal,
but isn't this why Jesus said "
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name
drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never
knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" Matthew 7:22-23

Is that so brother?

Meaning, many have an image of God in their minds but they don't truly know him.
Thus for many, Jesus will say " I never knew you" because their picture of who God is
which shapes their doctrine, is off from the truth. I'm not speaking specifically about @KingJ but
more broadly about the concept of how it is important to really know who Jesus is.

@B-A-C and @KingJ , isn't is ironic that Jesus calls them evil.(evildoers--lawless ones, workers of iniquity, etc) Saying depart from me you evildoers,
yet for some they feel that if God were to judge them, such an act would be evil itself.

It almost sounds like they are saying God would be evil to judge or punish them.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

“You who love the Lord, hate evil! He preserves the souls of His saints; He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked.” -Psalm 97:10

Since God hates evil, what do we think God will do to those are are evil? What would you do to evil?
What would I do to evil? But then again, it doesn't matter what me or you would do, it matters what God will do.

God's love burns passionate in one direction and likewise God's anger burns passionately in the opposite direction.

God's love is endless and he forgives our sins and remembers them no more for all who repent, and makes us clean and justified. He separates our
sins are far as the east is from the west, endless loves. Endless love.

likewise

God's anger and wrath burns forever, and those who refuse to have their sins forever cleansed will find it
forever punished. Endless wrath.

Does that not fit with the character of God?
Slow to anger giving many chances (Sodom and Gomorrah ) but when judgement comes,
it is brutal like Lot's wife or the Fire on Sodom.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Luke 13:1-4 reads
" Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish "


The message paraphrase puts it this way

" 5 About that time some people came up and told him about the Galileans Pilate had killed while they were at worship, mixing their blood with the blood of the sacrifices on the altar. Jesus responded, “Do you think those murdered Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans? Not at all. Unless you turn to God, you, too, will die. And those eighteen in Jerusalem the other day, the ones crushed and killed when the Tower of Siloam collapsed and fell on them, do you think they were worse citizens than all other Jerusalemites? Not at all. Unless you turn to God, you, too, will die.”

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

A proper view of God gives a proper view of sin.

A proper view of sin gives a proper view of God's response to sin.

A proper view of the depravity of mankind gives a proper view of mankind's sinfulness

A proper view of our sinfulness gives a proper understanding of why Jesus came

A proper view of why Jesus came lets us know how immeasurably high the stakes were which would require the blood of God's Son.

Really think about that.
---------------------------------

Life is in the blood. If God is eternal and His life is eternal. Wouldn't His blood therefore able to pay for the cost of a penalty that is also eternal?
If an eternal payment (for an eternal punishment) was not needed, then Jesus would not have had to die.

 

[KingJ]

For me, what you are saying is the same as saying
(statement) police are good
(statement) jail is evil
(therefore) police can't send people to jail because that would be evil.

Correct?

No lol .

To better understand my argument you need to consider the difference between the Geneva convention stipulations for treatment of your enemy verse someone like Nero or those who used a brazen bull on their enemy.

If the 'jail' is humane / passes Geneva convention stipulations, it is good and not evil. The evil need to be separated, fact.

If the 'jail' is a place of torture. Like finding yourself in a dungeon surrounded by torture devices. Or, the most appropriate example I have found matching what people teach of hell, a brazen bull. If 'jail' was eternity in a brazen bull, then YES, ''jail is evil''. Height of evil!

If jail is good, God is good. If jail is evil, God is evil. God is not evil.

 

[KingJ]

The issue seems to be what is perceived as evil.

Killing and torturing are evil. Under most circumstances yes. But always.. no.

If you are in the military, and another nation is attacking your country. You kill and destroy the enemy.
You wouldn't be a good soldier if you didn't do this.
If you have children and a wife, and someone is harming them. You might not kill them, but they'll wish you had before it's over.
You wouldn't be a good husband/father if you didn't do this.
If a judge finds a serial killer, or rapist guilty, and doesn't put them in jail,
they wouldn't be a good judge.

Now maybe God loves those who teach false doctrines, lead people astray, and persecute His children.
But there are verses that say God loves some people more than He loves others. This isn't just a random thing. I like you, but I don't like him for no particular reason.
No, He gives reasons of why He loves some. Usually it has to do with obedience. ( Exod 20:6; Deut 5:10; John 14:21; John 15:10; 1 Jn 4:12; Rev 3:9; etc.. )

But if God doesn't punish those who are hurting His children, then He is not a good God.
If God doesn't punish those who reject His Son, then He is not a good Father.
If He doesn't punish those who refure to obey Him, then He is not a just judge.

The punishment needs to fit the crime, or God wouldn't be a good judge.
You caused millions of people to go to hell.. what should your punishment be?
You killed millions of my children, what should your punishment be?
You raped women and molested innocent children, what should your punishment be?

I can tell you, for the mother of that child or the husband of that wife, hell won't be hot enough, and eternity won't be long enough.
If I send my Son to do everything for you, pay your debt, take your place, and die for you... and you reject Him... there will Hell to pay.. literally.
He was beaten, whipped, mocked, and crucified for you. You think the Father won't punish those who reject this?

We can debate the "logic" of this again and again. Maybe this doesn't meet up with your standards and your logic.
But the plain and simple fact is... God is going to throw some people into the Lake of Fire to be tormented forever and ever. Rev 20:10; Rev 14:9-11; Matt 25:46;
Some people will go to everlasting punishment.

Rather than debate why God would or wouldn't do this. Take Him at His Word and scriptures, that say He "is" going to do this.

BAC, there is a critical error in your understanding of God's punishment that you really need to correct and work on.

God's punishment, God's wrath is always swift. Never torturous.

You terribly blur this truth / fact by quoting scripture after scripture on God's ''wrath''. Yes, we know His wrath is real. Just please better discern the ''actual'' wrath. Otherwise you become guilty of miss-representing God to the lost.

The only time we see ongoing torment is with His plagues. But we need to discern here with more then a child's mind. The motivation behind plagues is God attempting to lead people to repentance. As enduring a tormentous plague is still better then eternal separation.

God destroyed Sodom swiftly Gen 19:28. Graphic, sure, but swift. The flood, was death by drowning, graphic, but swift. Death by stoning, graphic but swift.

Which leads to only two possible conclusions on hell.

1. Utter annihilation of the wicked
2. A humane prison. A place that ticks all the blocks and more of a Geneva convention type institution.

 

[KingJ]

@B-A-C and @KingJ , isn't is ironic that Jesus calls them evil.(evildoers--lawless ones, workers of iniquity, etc) Saying depart from me you evildoers,
yet for some they feel that if God were to judge them, such an act would be evil itself.

It almost sounds like they are saying God would be evil to judge or punish them.

God is not evil to punish the wicked. Every good person on the planet agrees with punshment.

The issue comes in with torture. Punishment can never be torture. The moment it is, we have repaying evil with evil.

A good judge, a good person, a good God, would never repay evil with evil.

So, when we teach the topic of hell to the lost and our statement is '''repent or burn in hell'', we have made God out to be wicked. He will burn you alive for all eternity if you don't repent.

The correct statement is ''repent or be separated''.

The fire in hell needs to be properly explained and better researched. As I took a stab at in my OP. We all need to come to agreement on the fact that the fire of hell is literal, but a different kind of literal and not related to God's punishment. Rather a natural consequence of sin.

Consider the fact that the rich man is / was on fire before judgement day.

 

[complete]

Hi all, just looking for a light hearted discussion on the fires of hell.

I have been praying on this a lot lately and feel the Lord has helped me with some insight on the topic.

Just to set the scene. Burning in fire as we know it, is torture. God is good, not wicked. As such the fire has to be something other then a brazen bull type scenario. God is good Psalm 136:1, God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

So, how does a good God escape judgement of being wicked when he places sinners in fire for all eternity. That is the question.


One would think a short session in a fire be fine. Like one second for every sin, capped at ten minutes. Something like the beating Jesus endured, just replaced with fire. Burning anyone longer then ten minutes is wicked, fact. Heck, perhaps even one minute?

Yet scripture does not give us wiggle room. It says fire, eternal and calls the home of the wicked a lake of fire. Fire is not going away.

I believe God has shown me what the fire is and why it is there.......

Those in hell go on in sin. That is why they are separated from us in heaven. We in heaven repent and have Jesus as our cover from punishment for sin. Those in hell don't. They will sin today, tomorrow, next week, next year and continue in sin for all eternity. Never truly desire repentance. Never truly hate what is evil.

The fires of hell are linked to sin. They cannot be quenched because sin never ceases. It is a literal fire but a different kind of fire. One that the person suffering is aware of, but yet it is not at a degree where they are screaming in pain.

The rich man held a conversation and asked only for a drop of water on their tongue Luke 16:19-31. People in hell weep and gnash their teeth because they are cast out of heaven Luke 13:28, not because they are on fire.

So, in conclusion, the fire is not ''God's punishment'' on the wicked. I believe it is more a natural consequence of one's sin. Somehow linked to their sin. God's punishment on the wicked is Him separating them from Him and the righteous and perhaps a momentary punishment matching one's sin, like the beating of Jesus for example.

All thoughts welcome, please keep it peaceful.

Nobody truly knows, but what we do know is that God is good yesterday, today and tomorrow. So, please consider how a good God remains good when explaining fires of hell to anyone.

* Gr. Geenna (gheh'-en-nah) translated:- Hell.
Matthew 5:22; Matthew 5:29-30; Matthew 10:28
Matthew 18:9; Matthew 23:15; Matthew 23:33
Mark 9:43; Mark 9:45; Mark 9:47
Luke 12:5
James 3:6

Hello @KingJ,

The whole debate regarding the word 'Hell' and it's usage, all rely on the belief that man has an immortal soul. For only if the soul does not die, is there any reason to consider where it goes after the body dies. Also our concept of what the soul actually is, determines what we believe happens to it at the death of the body. I believe that man is a living soul, because of the breath of life that energises him. When the breath of life (or spirit) leaves the body at death and returns to God who gave it, man is no longer a living soul, but a dead body. For without the spirit the body is dead, and without both body and spirit there is no living soul. Death also is not the gateway to another existence, but the absence of life. There is no prospect of life without the power of the resurrection.

* The fires of Gehenna, which our Lord refers to are the fires of destruction, which will be in place during the time of judgment at the end of the age.
* There is no eternal conscious punishment envisaged for the unbelieving dead, only judgment and destruction.

* You are right God is righteous and will judge mankind; but it will be righteous judgment, and the outcome will result either in life or a second death for those so judged.

* The believer will not come into condemnation for he has already passed from death into life in God's estimation and, when dead, is spoken of as being 'asleep' awaiting the resurrection from the dead, when spirit and body will be united in a spiritual body, like unto our Lord's own resurrection body, and will once more be a living soul, with the prospect of a life lived in God's presence where there is fulness of joy.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

God is not evil to punish the wicked. Every good person on the planet agrees with punshment.

The issue comes in with torture. Punishment can never be torture. The moment it is, we have repaying evil with evil.

A good judge, a good person, a good God, would never repay evil with evil.

So, when we teach the topic of hell to the lost and our statement is '''repent or burn in hell'', we have made God out to be wicked. He will burn you alive for all eternity if you don't repent.

The correct statement is ''repent or be separated''.

The fire in hell needs to be properly explained and better researched. As I took a stab at in my OP. We all need to come to agreement on the fact that the fire of hell is literal, but a different kind of literal and not related to God's punishment. Rather a natural consequence of sin.

Consider the fact that the rich man is / was on fire before judgement day.

Thanks for the reply.

So if I understand you correctly. Your position is:

(A) You agree that punishment is good as a consequence of evil but
(B) you disagree with torture.

I think this is a good point to discuss, very good point.

Seems very subjective to me, but let's discuss further because I think you are on to something in terms of
explaining why you believe what you believe.

I'm focusing in on your distinction between punishment and torture. You focus on several factors it seems implicitly and explicitly.
What I gather you are saying is that the different between punishment and torture is that:

(1) torture is when one(the one giving the punishment) takes delight in the punishment, and
(2) torture is further distinguished from punishment if the punishment far exceeds the crime.

Is that correct?

 

[KingJ]

* Gr. Geenna (gheh'-en-nah) translated:- Hell.
Matthew 5:22; Matthew 5:29-30; Matthew 10:28
Matthew 18:9; Matthew 23:15; Matthew 23:33
Mark 9:43; Mark 9:45; Mark 9:47
Luke 12:5
James 3:6

Hello @KingJ,

The whole debate regarding the word 'Hell' and it's usage, all rely on the belief that man has an immortal soul. For only if the soul does not die, is there any reason to consider where it goes after the body dies. Also our concept of what the soul actually is, determines what we believe happens to it at the death of the body. I believe that man is a living soul, because of the breath of life that energises him. When the breath of life (or spirit) leaves the body at death and returns to God who gave it, man is no longer a living soul, but a dead body. For without the spirit the body is dead, and without both body and spirit there is no living soul. Death also is not the gateway to another existence, but the absence of life. There is no prospect of life without the power of the resurrection.

* The fires of Gehenna, which our Lord refers to are the fires of destruction, which will be in place during the time of judgment at the end of the age.
* There is no eternal conscious punishment envisaged for the unbelieving dead, only judgment and destruction.

* You are right God is righteous and will judge mankind; but it will be righteous judgment, and the outcome will result either in life or a second death for those so judged.

* The believer will not come into condemnation for he has already passed from death into life in God's estimation and, when dead, is spoken of as being 'asleep' awaiting the resurrection from the dead, when spirit and body will be united in a spiritual body, like unto our Lord's own resurrection body, and will once more be a living soul, with the prospect of a life lived in God's presence where there is fulness of joy.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Complete, thanks for your input here. Annihilationism is certainly a better belief over eternal torture.

However, I believe annihilationism is a construct of carefully selected scriptures. It is not where scripture as a whole points.

Before we get into the scriptures, consider this.

God wants a ''union'' with mankind. He call us the bride of Christ. He call us His children. He calls us a family. One where mankind ''chooses'' to be with Him. He gives us marriage and relationships as examples of what He wants. Each of us fully understand ''parent to child'' relationships. Fully understand ''husband and wife'' relationships. Fully understand ''close friendships''. Fully understand the torment of ''loneliness / isolation from people''.

God tells us He is good Psalm 136:1. God tells us He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. God tells us He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

Yet you believe God's call to us is ''Accept Him or die''.

What girl on this planet will accept such an invitation from a guy? What friendship can start on those terms?

The righteous are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18. The difference between those barely saved and barely not saved, is utter annihilation?

 

[KingJ]

What I gather you are saying is that the different between punishment and torture is that:

(1) torture is when one(the one giving the punishment) takes delight in the punishment, and
(2) torture is further distinguished from punishment if the punishment far exceeds the crime.

Is that correct?

No. You can torture someone without taking delight therein.

We just need to contrast God with Nero to grasp the difference between punishment and torture.

God gave the people of the world 50-120 years before the flood to repent of their very sinful lifestyles. He said to them through Noah '''I utterly hate what you all are doing, please repent immediately''. 50-120 years of watching Noah build the arc and warning them daily, it rains for forty days and they all drown.

Drowning is graphic and death is terrible, but it is a quick death. Two minutes of actual suffering. How Long Does It Take to Drown? Facts, Safety, and Precautions.

Now if God grabbed your head and put it in water, then after a minute lifted it out the water for you to re-gain air and then dunked your head again in the water. This would be torture.

Now Nero, tied meat to Christians and let dogs loose on them. Repeated bites, running, screaming, exhaustion. Death could take an hour.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Hi Complete, thanks for your input here. Annihilationism is certainly a better belief over eternal torture.

However, I believe annihilationism is a construct of carefully selected scriptures. It is not where scripture as a whole points.

Before we get into the scriptures, consider this.

God wants a ''union'' with mankind. He call us the bride of Christ. He call us His children. He calls us a family. One where mankind ''chooses'' to be with Him. He gives us marriage and relationships as examples of what He wants. Each of us fully understand ''parent to child'' relationships. Fully understand ''husband and wife'' relationships. Fully understand ''close friendships''. Fully understand the torment of ''loneliness / isolation from people''.

God tells us He is good Psalm 136:1. God tells us He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. God tells us He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

Yet you believe God's call to us is ''Accept Him or die''.

What girl on this planet will accept such an invitation from a guy? What friendship can start on those terms?

The righteous are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18. The difference between those barely saved and barely not saved, is utter annihilation?

I just realized something reading your post. @KingJ

I was looking at your various post on good and evil and trying to make sense of what you are saying and I realized something.

@B-A-C , @complete , It seems @KingJ is defining good and evil based on what someone does, not why(motivate, purpose), they do it or who(authority) they are to do it.

So I see that what you are doing @KingJ is you are making two categories, one box you call good, and another box you call evil.
And you are putting things into one box, if anything is in this box it is evil, if anything is in this box it is good.

(This is a gross exaggeration of your point, but if you realize what I'm saying you can see that parts of your argument is this)

Which is why you use words like "torture", because you are looking at the what that iis happening, not the why or who.
So in your mind if burning pain in hell is forever, (the what ) you put it in the box of evil, without any consideration to
the why. Why is it happening. Does their punishment justify it. Who is doing this to them, Does God have the authority to do it.

If I stab a child with a needle that is evil, but if I take him to a doctor who puts a needle in their arm for the purpose of a medical treatment
than that same/similar act of stabbing with a needle is no longer evil. One can see that if they move beyond the point that someone
is being stabbed with a needle to the who that is doing it (a doctor), the why( for medical treatment).

So with hell, the why is because of the sinfulness of hell, the who is God who has authority to do so and hates sins. And bringing
justice brings glory to God. Hell glorifies God because it is justice for the results of evil.
Therefore when you move away from the fact of hell being torture (focusing just on that what is happening), and why
it is happening and who is authorizing it, It should make more sense.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Now if God grabbed your head and put it in water, then after a minute lifted it out the water for you to re-gain air and then dunked your head again in the water. This would be torture.

This is where I disagree.

If God wanted to torture someone that would still work.
Meaning if God felt so angry at sin that he wanted to punish someone because of their sinfulness and took pleasure in it
God could do so.

"But since you refuse to listen when I call and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand.
since you disregard all my advice and do not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you; I will mock when calamity overtakes you-- when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you. "Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me,"

Proverbs 1:24-28

Who is laughing? Sounds like taking pleasure to me.

I think your view on who God is , is limited. Yes God does not go around just torturing people. But if as payment for sin, God decides to inflict pain, God can do so. Stop talking about evil and torture. Talk about who God is, and what God has revealed Himself to be. You are going to continue to miss the mark as long as your focus is on torture and evil, instead focus on God, focus on who God is. Let God be the foundation of your belief, not what torture is or is not.

 

[KingJ]

I just realized something reading your post. @KingJ

I was looking at your various post on good and evil and trying to make sense of what you are saying and I realized something.

@B-A-C , @complete , It seems @KingJ is defining good and evil based on what someone does, not why(motivate, purpose), they do it or who(authority) they are to do it.

So I see that what you are doing @KingJ is you are making to categories, one box you call good, and another box you call evil.
And you are putting things into one box, if anything is in this box it is evil, if anything is in this box it is good.

(This is a gross exaggeration of your point, but if you realize what I'm saying you can see that parts of your argument is this)

Which is why you use words like "torture", because you are looking at the what that iis happening, not the why or who.
So in your mind if burning pain in hell is forever, (the what ) you put it in the box of evil, without any consideration to
the why. Why is it happening. Does their punishment justify it. Who is doing this to them, Does God have the authority to do it.

If I stab a child with a needle that is evil, but if I take him to a doctor who puts a needed in their arm for the purpose of a medical treatment
than that same/similar act of stabbing with a needle is no longer good. One can see that if they move beyond that point that someone
is being stabbed with a needle the who that is doing it (a doctor), the why( for medical treatment).

So with hell, the why is because of the sinfulness of hell, the who is God who has authority to do so and hates sins.
Therefore when you move away from the fact of hell being torture (focusing just on that what is happening), and why
it is happening and who is authorizing it, It should make more sense.

You have a point but the doctor - child analogy does not work.

The participants in hell are God and the unrepentant wicked.

In the case of God and us, we know He puts us through suffering, to strengthen us.

In the case of those who are wicked but not yet sold out to wickedness, He puts plagues on them in a last ditch attempt to get them to repent.

So in those cases, your point makes sense.

But on hell, you need to consider that any plague or suffering will be on people who He already knows will never repent or grow stronger in faith. As such, anything done that is not pleasurable, is seen as punishment.

Now punishment must always match the crime and punishment can never be torturous. No good person on this planet would ever repay evil with evil. Punish with torture.

Historically, we have Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Nero, Himmler, Ivan the terrible who punished their enemy with torture. Are these the names we want the lost to think of when they think of our God?