The fires of hell

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I could say that Jesus doesn't insult people or use namecalling because that would be rude. And insults are rude. I could be stuck on that,
Or I can just learn about him and see that he said

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean."
Matthew 23:38

Calling them "Whitewashed tombs" is name calling, that is not their names. That is an insult.
One could dance in circles saying how Jesus doesn't insult and how well that is a metaphor, or etc etc. Or they can plainly read what He say said, and realized that Jesus did insult the Pharisee at times.

Same with what you are doing @KingJ . Your argument is based on what is torture and what is evil, that you have constructed, and if things don't fit into your views of what these things are, it cannot be God.
Instead of moving away from your views on torture and your view on evil. And focus on who God is, and who God has revealed Himself to be. You can't go wrong with getting to know God.

Jesus said, He knows His sheep, they hear His voice, and they follow Him. Focus on who God is, not your focus on torture and evil.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Now punishment must always match the crime and punishment can never be torturous.

Let me ask you a question and answer for you. Why should the punishment match the crime?
What attribute of God does this point to?

The answer: Justice. God is a Just God, this is why punishment will match the crime.
I think this just leads us to the point of difference perhaps on how bad of a "crime" sin is.

I think those who perhaps believe in annihilism just have a lower view on the depth of how bad sin is therefore
they see the punishment of hell as overkill. And if it is overkill it is evil, because God doesn't have to do all of that
to satisfy the standard of Justice.

How high is God's standard of Justice?
How Holy is God?
What will satisfy His wrath?

You and I both know: The Blood of Jesus

. (I'm surprised you don't think it was evil of God to have Jesus and innocent person die for sinners like us. For Jesus to be tortured on the cross and it please Jesus. Isn't that evil to you
, based on what you are saying? Anyone using your logic would come to the conclusion that the death of Jesus with the permission of God was evil.

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.” Isaiah 53:10

 

[KingJ]

This is where I disagree.

If God wanted to torture someone that would still work.
Meaning if God felt so angry at sin that he wanted to punish someone because of their sinfulness and took pleasure in it
God could do so.

"But since you refuse to listen when I call and no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand.
since you disregard all my advice and do not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh when disaster strikes you; I will mock when calamity overtakes you-- when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you. "Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me,"

Proverbs 1:24-28

Who is laughing? Sounds like taking pleasure to me.

I think your view on who God is , is limited. Yes God does not go around just torturing people. But if as payment for sin, God decides to inflict pain, God can do so. Stop talking about evil and torture. Talk about who God is, and what God has revealed Himself to be. You are going to continue to miss the mark as long as your focus is on torture and evil, instead focus on God, focus on who God is. Let God be the foundation of your belief, not what torture is or is not.

Are you being serious?

Laughing at calamity of the utterly wicked and mocking when fear cometh is NOT on par with Him torturing them.

And, it is a proverb. It could be alluding to His ''help'' laughing in that it is nowhere to be found.

We know that God does not delight in the death and suffering of the wicked Eze 18:23.

If you were to miss the rapture and need to endure ten days of torture before death Rev 2:10, I certainly pray for your sake that your tormentor thinks laughing at you is tortorous.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Are you being serious?

Laughing at calamity of the utterly wicked and mocking when fear cometh is NOT on par with Him torturing them.

And, it is a proverb. It could be alluding to His ''help'' laughing in that it is nowhere to be found.

We know that God does not delight in the death and suffering of the wicked Eze 18:23.

If you were to miss the rapture and need to endure ten days of torture before death Rev 2:10, I certainly pray for your sake that your tormentor thinks laughing at you is tortorous.

It is also not the will of God that any should perish but many will.

You are right, God does not delight in the suffering of the wicked, but if they choose
to not heed God's warnings they will suffer.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

As I said previously

Let me ask you a question and answer for you. Why should the punishment match the crime?
What attribute of God does this point to?

The answer: Justice. God is a Just God, this is why punishment will match the crime.
I think this just leads us to the point of difference perhaps on how bad of a "crime" sin is.

I think those who perhaps believe in annihilism just have a lower view on the depth of how bad sin is therefore
they see the punishment of hell as overkill. And if it is overkill it is evil, because God doesn't have to do all of that
to satisfy the standard of Justice.

How high is God's standard of Justice?
How Holy is God?
What will satisfy His wrath(Justice)?

The answer: The Blood of Jesus . Those who believe in Him and repent will be saved. Those who don't will be damned.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

 

[KingJ]

Let me ask you a question and answer for you. Why should the punishment match the crime?
What attribute of God does this point to?

The answer: Justice. God is a Just God, this is why punishment will match the crime.
I think this just leads us to the point of difference perhaps on how bad of a "crime" sin is.

I think those who perhaps believe in annihilism just have a lower view on the depth of how bad sin is therefore
they see the punishment of hell as overkill. And if it is overkill it is evil, because God doesn't have to do all of that
to satisfy the standard of Justice.

How high is God's standard of Justice?
How Holy is God?
What will satisfy His wrath?

You and I both know: The Blood of Jesus

. (I'm surprised you don't think it was evil of God to have Jesus and innocent person die for sinners like us. For Jesus to be tortured on the cross and it please Jesus. Isn't that evil to you
, based on what you are saying? Anyone using your logic would come to the conclusion that the death of Jesus with the permission of God was evil.

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.” Isaiah 53:10

Let's stop beating around the bush.

One-day you will judge angels. Paul tells us to judge matters among ourselves and not take it to courts as '''we should know better''. We can ''judge and sentence'' better. 1 Cor 6:1-9.

As such, please tell me what your sentence / punishment will be for the following:

1. A thirty year old thief who stole bread from an orphan.
2. A ten year old thief who stole a candy stick from the candy store.
3. A serial killer, who murdered and raped his victims and is showing no signs of remorse.

Punishment and sentence, whatever you want. Pretend you are the judge, jury and executioner.

 

[KingJ]

It is also not the will of God that any should perish but many will.

You are right, God does not delight in the suffering of the wicked, but if they choose
to not heed God's warnings they will suffer.

Don't say ''they will suffer''. Be specific. Scripture is so specific on exactly what their suffering will be. For valid reasons.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Let's stop beating around the bush.

One-day you will judge angels. Paul tells us to judge matters among ourselves and not take it to courts as '''we should know better''. We can ''judge and sentence'' better. 1 Cor 6:1-9.

As such, please tell me what your sentence / punishment will be for the following:

1. A thirty year old thief who stole bread from an orphan.
2. A ten year old thief who stole a candy stick from the candy store.
3. A serial killer, who murdered and raped his victims and is showing no signs of remorse.

Punishment and sentence, whatever you want. Pretend you are the judge, jury and executioner.

Answer my question first please, then I will answer yours.

How high is God's standard of Justice?
How Holy is God?
What will satisfy His wrath(Justice)?

 

[The Kreisel]

"For ALL shall be salted with FIRE" - Mark 9:49.
This verse is usually left out of most all Bible teaching.
Maybe there is a spiritual interpretation - ya think?

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

"For ALL shall be salted with FIRE" - Mark 9:49.
This verse is usually left out of most all Bible teaching.
Maybe there is a spiritual interpretation - ya think?

New Living Translation

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It’s better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.’ “For everyone will be tested with fire. Salt is good for seasoning. But if it loses its flavor, how do you make it salty again? You must have the qualities of salt among yourselves and live in peace with each other.”

The Message (Eugene Peterson)

“If your hand or your foot gets in God’s way, chop it off and throw it away. You’re better off maimed or lame and alive than the proud owner of two hands and two feet, godless in a furnace of eternal fire. And if your eye distracts you from God, pull it out and throw it away. You’re better off one-eyed and alive than exercising your twenty-twenty vision from inside the fire of hell. Everyone’s going through a refining fire sooner or later, but you’ll be well-preserved, protected from the eternal flames. Be preservatives yourselves. Preserve the peace"

KJV

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

 

[The Kreisel]

New Living Translation

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It’s better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.’ “For everyone will be tested with fire. Salt is good for seasoning. But if it loses its flavor, how do you make it salty again? You must have the qualities of salt among yourselves and live in peace with each other.”

The Message (Eugene Peterson)

“If your hand or your foot gets in God’s way, chop it off and throw it away. You’re better off maimed or lame and alive than the proud owner of two hands and two feet, godless in a furnace of eternal fire. And if your eye distracts you from God, pull it out and throw it away. You’re better off one-eyed and alive than exercising your twenty-twenty vision from inside the fire of hell. Everyone’s going through a refining fire sooner or later, but you’ll be well-preserved, protected from the eternal flames. Be preservatives yourselves. Preserve the peace"

KJV

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

"Fire never quenched" is an idiom to show the complete work of the fire.

More than 2500 years ago the Holy Spirit warned the wicked inhabitants of Jerusalem that God would kindle a fire at Jerusalem's gates which would devour her palaces. "But if you will not hearken unto Me ... then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not he quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Did not God say this fire "shall NOT BE QUENCHED?" This prophecy was fulfilled and the fire did occur a few years later and it did destroy all the houses of Jerusalem (Jer. 52:13). Since God said no person or thing would "quench" this fire, did that mean that it would burn for ever? Since it accomplished the work it was sent to do, and since it is NOT BURNING TODAY, it obviously went out by itself after accomplishing its purpose! Unquenchable fire is not eternal fire - it is simply fire that cannot be put out until it has consumed or changed everything it is possible for it to change! It then simply goes out, for there is nothing more to burn. Yet I hear the preachers ranting and raving about poor souls being cast into hell fire where "their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" and this, we are told, means eternal, unending torment. How foolish, illogical, and deceptive! Such a view contradicts the plain meaning of the term "unquenchable" and its use in the Word of God.​

Are the judgments of God permanent? Isaiah says, "When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" (Isa. 26:9). And Mat. 12:20 says, "A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory."​

To think the fire is literal and not spiritual, come from the lower-carnal mind of men.
Do you suppose the 'Baptism of FIRE' is literal?

 

[The Kreisel]

The post is misleading too, in the light of Revelation 20:14 -"And death and hell (hades) shall be cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE: This is the second death"

Most think Hell is the Lake of Fire.
Wrong.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

"Fire never quenched" is an idiom to show the complete work of the fire.

More than 2500 years ago the Holy Spirit warned the wicked inhabitants of Jerusalem that God would kindle a fire at Jerusalem's gates which would devour her palaces. "But if you will not hearken unto Me ... then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not he quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Did not God say this fire "shall NOT BE QUENCHED?" This prophecy was fulfilled and the fire did occur a few years later and it did destroy all the houses of Jerusalem (Jer. 52:13). Since God said no person or thing would "quench" this fire, did that mean that it would burn for ever? Since it accomplished the work it was sent to do, and since it is NOT BURNING TODAY, it obviously went out by itself after accomplishing its purpose! Unquenchable fire is not eternal fire - it is simply fire that cannot be put out until it has consumed or changed everything it is possible for it to change! It then simply goes out, for there is nothing more to burn. Yet I hear the preachers ranting and raving about poor souls being cast into hell fire where "their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" and this, we are told, means eternal, unending torment. How foolish, illogical, and deceptive! Such a view contradicts the plain meaning of the term "unquenchable" and its use in the Word of God.​

Are the judgments of God permanent? Isaiah says, "When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" (Isa. 26:9). And Mat. 12:20 says, "A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory."​

To think the fire is literal and not spiritual, come from the lower-carnal mind of men.
Do you suppose the 'Baptism of FIRE' is literal?

No I don't suppose the Baptism of FIRE is literal. It is comparing what one will endure to the pain of fire. It is a metaphor to give someone a point of reference of comparison.

You bring up a good point about knowing when the speaking in the Bible is speaking literally or more symbolic.
What is your standard of figuring this out?

 

[The Kreisel]

Here is some insight into the heart of God, from Jeremiah 7:31:

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart".

You still believe 'God changes not'? - that he is the 'same yesterday, today, and forever'?

To think God is interested in burning people in literal fire is ludicrous.

 

[complete]

Hi Complete, thanks for your input here. Annihilationism is certainly a better belief over eternal torture.

However, I believe annihilationism is a construct of carefully selected scriptures. It is not where scripture as a whole points.

Before we get into the scriptures, consider this.

God wants a ''union'' with mankind. He call us the bride of Christ. He call us His children. He calls us a family. One where mankind ''chooses'' to be with Him. He gives us marriage and relationships as examples of what He wants. Each of us fully understand ''parent to child'' relationships. Fully understand ''husband and wife'' relationships. Fully understand ''close friendships''. Fully understand the torment of ''loneliness / isolation from people''.

God tells us He is good Psalm 136:1. God tells us He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. God tells us He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

Yet you believe God's call to us is ''Accept Him or die''.

What girl on this planet will accept such an invitation from a guy? What friendship can start on those terms?

The righteous are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18. The difference between those barely saved and barely not saved, is utter annihilation?

Hello @KingJ,

With respect to you, your argument does not make sense to me I'm afraid. What greater hope can there be than to be resurrected out from among the dead (Philippians 3:11), as one who has woken from sleep (Psalm 17:15) , to be with Christ our Saviour, Lord and Head (Colossians 3:4), and enjoy the lovingkindness of God through Him throughout eternity.?(Ephesians 2:7). That is my hope as a member of the Church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all (Ephesians 1:22-23).

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[KingJ]

Hello @KingJ,

With respect to you, your argument does not make sense to me I'm afraid. What greater hope can there be than to be resurrected out from among the dead (Philippians 3:11), as one who has woken from sleep (Psalm 17:15) , to be with Christ our Saviour, Lord and Head (Colossians 3:4), and enjoy the lovingkindness of God through Him throughout eternity.?(Ephesians 2:7). That is my hope as a member of the Church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all (Ephesians 1:22-23).

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

If you believe God kills those who reject Him, you really think you awake to be greeted by a loving and kind God?

 

[KingJ]

Answer my question first please, then I will answer yours.

1. How high is God's standard of Justice?
2. How Holy is God?
3. What will satisfy His wrath(Justice)?

1. He repays each according to what they have done Rom 2:6. Nothing escapes Him Jer 17:9-12

2. There are mixed interpretations of what the word ''holy'' means. Many use it to describe God as a shining light that burns the rubble. The truth is that He is called holy and worthy of all glory and praise, because He is good and righteous in all His ways. Not because ''He deals with the wicked in a wicked manner''. So the answer is, He is the epitome of holy as He is the epitome of good as only He can be. He is a God who is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

3. Well we already know. He removes the extremely wicked from earth. He does what pleases Him, this pleases Him. There will be a punishment on sin coming, The demons that were cast into pigs spoke of a time coming when they will be punished. It is hard to say what this punishment will be. We know of separation from God and the saints. That alone is a harsh punishment. But I do believe there is more. The saints in Revelations 6 cry out for vengeance by God on those who killed them. So perhaps they do expect to see God, punish the wicked on earth. The type of punishment I would expect God to dish out, should I be one of those tribulation saints would be, maybe 100 lashes and a poster in their house for ten years of the people they tortured and killed as a reminder of their cruelty to others.

The fact is that God's justice will not be unreasonable or something a good person will ever disagree with. This is where you want to go and what you may believe. It is nonsense and suggestive teaching you have been indoctrinated with. God is not beyond our grasp of good and evil. We grasp good and evil as He does Gen 3:22.

Nothing God does to the wicked '''to satisfy His wrath'' will be something that any good person on the planet will disagree with. Consider Gen 18, how Abraham debated the destruction of Sodom with God. Abraham conceded and agreed with God's decision. God allowed Abraham to interrogate Him. God did not act all ''high and mighty'' with His wrath.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

If you believe God kills those who reject Him, you really think you awake to be greeted by a loving and kind God?

Once again you are looking at what is happening not who and why.

You are looking at what [killing who rejects Him] you are not looking at
why and who.

The why being to fit the punishment for the crime and the who is God the judge.
Like a judge in court is a terror for evil doers but the innocent rejoice when the judge punishes the evil doers.

 

[KingJ]

Here is some insight into the heart of God, from Jeremiah 7:31:

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart".

You still believe 'God changes not'? - that he is the 'same yesterday, today, and forever'?

To think God is interested in burning people in literal fire is ludicrous.

Thank you for this gem Kreisel.

 

[KingJ]

Once again you are looking at what is happening not who and why.

You are looking at what [killing who rejects Him] you are not looking at
why and who.

The why being to fit the punishment for the crime and the who is God the judge.
Like a judge in court is a terror for evil doers but the innocent rejoice when the judge punishes the evil doers.

Your replies are simply not holding water brother. No good person on this planet will give such an ultimatum to the wicked. Fact. In the USA, you kill / annihilate a handful of people a year.

There are many who are barely not saved, as many are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18. Yet you think God will be justified in utterly annihilating all the unrepentant sinners. How is that free will?

Every Christian should believe in true free will if they believe God is good. It is impossible to convince anyone using more then two brain cells that no free will is a good thing. Since God is good Psalm 136:1, free will has to exist. So please, do tell me how you believe that the phrase ''Accept me or die'' is evidence of free will / a good God.