The gifts of the Holy Spirit for the Church??

[vhusley]

The "brother" would be a born-again person.

The only sin "not" forgivable is "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost", which would also fall under "apostasy" which is denying the faith they once professed. Professing faith and possesing faith are not the same thing. Anyone can profess to have faith but not everyone possess saving faith.

John did not say a "brother" can sin the sin unto dearh which is why he said "...a brother whom sins "not" leading to death ...."

Only a non believer can sin the sin unto death. No prayer can save them.

When referring to a brother, why would John need to add the words “a sin not leading to death” at all, if a brother could not commit the other sin as well?

And in 1 John 5:16, John does not change his narrative at all. There is nothing anywhere in that passage that leads us to believe he suddenly switched over to talking about “non-brothers” or the lost. You are reading into scripture that which simply is not there.
There is no context here in which your explanation makes sense. John was clearly talking TO brothers ABOUT brothers in these verses.

Sadly, I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on what John is saying here.
Have a blessed day my friend.

 

[Curtis]

When referring to a brother, why would John need to add the words “a sin not leading to death” at all, if a brother could not commit the other sin as well?

And in 1 John 5:16, John does not change his narrative at all. There is nothing anywhere in that passage that leads us to believe he suddenly switched over to talking about “non-brothers” or the lost. You are reading into scripture that which simply is not there.
There is no context here in which your explanation makes sense. John was clearly talking TO brothers ABOUT brothers in these verses.

Sadly, I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on what John is saying here.
Have a blessed day my friend.

Question?

Jesus said......

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I wonder if these people think they are being used by the Holy Spirit?

People who "prophesy", "cast out demons", and do "many other mighty works" would they have been called "brothers" as these kinds of works are done in a "Church" context?

As Jesus tells them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[Waggles]

I wonder if these people think they are being used by the Holy Spirit?
People who "prophesy", "cast out demons", and do "many other mighty works" would they have been called "brothers" as these kinds of works are done in a "Church" context?

Yes. Jesus is referring to Pentecostal disciples and their works through the indwelling Holy Spirit - a reference to Mark 16:15-20.
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess to them [that] I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness. [iniquity]
this verse is a teaching against OSAS doctrine for Jesus himself is warning us that even though believers can fulfill the gospel and have the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives and their walk
they can lose their salvation if they allow the flesh and worldliness to rise and prevail again so that they stop being overcomers.
See Galatians 5:1-26 and also Mark 4:19
Matthew 13:22 And he sown among the thorns, this is who heareth the word; and the care of the age, and the deceitfulness of riches, chokes the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
the letters to the seven churches also warn us of losing our salvation through allowing iniquity and a lack of love to quench our righteousness in God.
Rev 2:4 But I have this against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love.
5 Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; else I come to thee, and will move thy lampstand out of its place, except thou repent.

 

[Curtis]

this verse is a teaching against OSAS doctrine for Jesus himself is warning us that even though believers can fulfill the gospel and have the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives and their walk
they can lose their salvation if they allow the flesh and worldliness to rise and prevail again so that they stop being overcomers.

Jesus did "not," say, I did know you at one time and now I don't. He said, "I never knew you"

 

[Curtis]

Yes. Jesus is referring to Pentecostal disciples and their works through the indwelling Holy Spirit - a reference to Mark 16:15-20.
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess to them [that] I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness. [iniquity]
this verse is a teaching against OSAS doctrine for Jesus himself is warning us that even though believers can fulfill the gospel and have the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives and their walk
they can lose their salvation if they allow the flesh and worldliness to rise and prevail again so that they stop being overcomers.
See Galatians 5:1-26 and also Mark 4:19
Matthew 13:22 And he sown among the thorns, this is who heareth the word; and the care of the age, and the deceitfulness of riches, chokes the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
the letters to the seven churches also warn us of losing our salvation through allowing iniquity and a lack of love to quench our righteousness in God.
Rev 2:4 But I have this against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love.
5 Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; else I come to thee, and will move thy lampstand out of its place, except thou repent.

Do you think the Bible describes people in the Church who are called "brothers" that were "false brothers"?

 

[vhusley]

Do you think the Bible describes people in the Church who are called "brothers" that were "false brothers"?

No. The Bible clearly calls them “false brothers.” See Galatians 2:4-5 and 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

 

[Curtis]

Rev 2:4 But I have this against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[Curtis]

No. The Bible clea

No. The Bible clearly calls them “false brothers.” See Galatians 2:4-5 and 2 Corinthians 11:13-15

False brothers were and even to this day have infiltrated every Gospel Church in the world. These are the ones who apostate and fall away every day. Youtube is filled with videos with people who have decided to "deconstruct" the faith that they thought they once had.

 

[vhusley]

False brothers were and even to this day have infiltrated every Gospel Church in the world. These are the ones who apostate and fall away every day. Youtube is filled with videos with people who have decided to "deconstruct" the faith that they thought they once had.

Yes, they have but no…..these are NOT the apostate to which the Bible refers.
The Bible (and it’s speakers and writers) clearly address and refer to “brothers” in specific passages and clearly refer to “false brethren” and “false teachers/prophets” in other specific verses….as I pointed out by giving you two examples above.

Why are you trying to make this confusing?

 

[Curtis]

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church today have also been faked! A fake spirit to deceive those who don't know any better.

Another Jesus who is also fake bringing in a fake gospel.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

False brothers who look and act like true believers have infiltrated the Church who are called brothers. All these produce eventually "apostates" who will turn away from the faith as they were foretold a long time ago (Jude 1:4). Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

 

[Curtis]

Yes, they have but no…..these are NOT the apostate to which the Bible refers.
The Bible (and it’s speakers and writers) clearly address and refer to “brothers” in specific passages and clearly refer to “false brethren” and “false teachers/prophets” in other specific verses….as I pointed out by giving you two examples above.

Why are you trying to make this confusing?

The Bible refers to some "false brothers" who were not known to be false believers until after a period of time, which is why the scripture says.....

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

unawares means they the Church did not know they were false.

2Pe 2:1 BUT ALSO [in those days] there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines (destructive heresies), even denying and disowning the Master Who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their immoral ways and lascivious doings; because of them the true Way will be maligned and defamed.

These are the ones who apostate because they are not true believers and they will bring themselves swift destruction.

 

[vhusley]

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church today have also been faked! A fake spirit to deceive those who don't know any better.

There were clearly “fakers,” false teachers, and false prophets in the church 2000 years ago as well. Did that make the Gifts of the Holy Spirit any less real then?
I really don’t understand your point.
Are you claiming there are fakers in the churches today? If so, you’d be correct.
Are you claiming that because there ARE some who are fake and who are making false claims that by default ALL who experience the manifestation of the Spiritual gifts are fake? If so, you’d have to apply that same claim to the church in Acts as well. And hopefully we would all agree that would be an absurd claim.

Coincidentally, do you believe that there could also be an element of “fakeness” in churches that don’t claim to experience the miraculous gifts? As in any “typical” denominational church?
For example: those who claim to have a relationship with the Lord, who actually do not., or those who claim that they are praying for others who actually aren’t, or those who claim to know God’s Word and read it regularly who actually don’t?

Would you be making the claim that “faking it” in church would only be limited to Pentecostal, Charismatic, or Spirit-filled churches? Because if so, that would be a very unilateral (and unsubstantiated) claim indeed!

These are the ones who apostate because they are not true believers and they will bring themselves swift destruction.

Also, I think it may benefit you to actually research the biblical (or even extra-biblical) meaning of “apostate” or “apostasy”……or even of “falling away.”

 

[Waggles]

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church today have also been faked! A fake spirit to deceive those who don't know any better.

Perhaps in your church but not in mine.

 

[Curtis]

Perhaps in your church but not in mine.

Has there ever been a person "prophecy" in your Church of an event that did not happen?
Are all the people in your Church 100% born again? Not unless your church only has a couple of people in it.
Is your pastor sent from God? How do you know?

2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles [spurious, counterfeits], deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles (special messengers) of Christ (the Messiah).

 

[B-A-C]

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Yes they believe.. "for a while".. and then "fall away".

Has there ever been a person "prophecy" in your Church of an event that did not happen?
Are all the people in your Church 100% born again? Not unless your church only has a couple of people in it.
Is your pastor sent from God? How do you know?

The same could be said about any church, including yours. What's the difference between a "fake prophecy" and a "fake Christian"?

 

[Curtis]

Yes they believe.. "for a while".. and then "fall away".



The same could be said about any church, including yours. What's the difference between a "fake prophecy" and a "fake Christian"?

Anybody can say they believe but believing does not mean possessing saving faith. If they were truly saved then they would have continued as the scriptures say.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from our number, but they did not [really] belong to us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But [they withdrew] that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

 

[Waggles]

Has there ever been a person "prophecy" in your Church of an event that did not happen?

That is not how the gift of prophecy works in a Bible obedient Pentecostal church.

 

[NetChaplain]

“Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall REMAIN in you, ye also shall continue in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. ,” - 1 John 2:24-25

If what you claim regarding falling away is true, why then is this warning even needed? It seems to clearly suggest that there is the possibility that it may not REMAIN in them. Please explain.

"What is here said is not either the cause or condition of men being in the Father, and in the Son, or of their continuance in them, but is descriptive of the persons that are in Them, and is an open and manifest evidence of their being and continuance in Them." -Gill

 

[Curtis]

That is not how the gift of prophecy works in a Bible obedient Pentecostal church.

What do they call people who prophesy and it does not happen?

 

[Waggles]

What do they call people who prophesy and it does not happen?

you must be stuck on a revolving vinyl record - saying the same things over and over ...
I just informed you that this does not happen in a Pentecostal church that operates the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit in accordance with 1Corinthians 14:
nobody gets it wrong