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The Meaning of Biblical Predestination, which is The Predestination of GOD.

complete said:
Hello @Butch5,

I agree that Israel is an integral part of God's plan, and that to them pertains the adoption:-

'For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren,
my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.'
(Rom 9:3-5)

* However, in Ephesians it is the Church which is the Body of Christ which is being referred to and not Israel as a nation. Adoption and Inheritance go hand in hand, and the inheritance of Israel is very different to that of those who comprise The Body of Christ.

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
To the praise of the glory of His grace,
wherein He hath made us accepted in The Beloved.
In Whom we have redemption through His blood,
the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;
Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;'
(Ephesians 1:3-8)

* Those whom God foreknew He also predestined, not to salvation itself, but to something resulting from salvation, such as 'the adoption of children', or 'to be conformed to the image of His Son' (Romans 8:29-30) .

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Click to expand...
Hi Chris,

Both of these passages you refer to are speaking of Isrsel, or the Jews.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Chris,
Both of these passages you refer to are speaking of Israel, or the Jews.
Click to expand...
Re: Reply #36 - Page 2
(Romans 9:3-5 and Ephesians 1:3-8)

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for responding, I appreciate it.

In Romans 9:3-5 Paul is talking about his brethren 'according to the flesh', who were Israelites, I agree: but in Ephesians 1:3-8, Paul is not speaking of Israel or of the Jews, but of the Church which is the Body of Christ, within which there is no such distinction.

By the time this epistle was written, Israel had already departed into blindness and unbelief: and Paul was imprisoned in Rome. Where God was revealing to Him the truth concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ, and of the risen Christ as it's Head. This truth that had been hid in God since the world began (Ephesians 3:9), and was not therefore the subject of Old Testament prophecy.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
complete said:
Re: Reply #36 - Page 2
(Romans 9:3-5 and Ephesians 1:3-8)

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for responding, I appreciate it.

In Romans 9:3-5 Paul is talking about his brethren 'according to the flesh', who were Israelites, I agree: but in Ephesians 1:3-8, Paul is not speaking of Israel or of the Jews, but of the Church which is the Body of Christ, within which there is no such distinction.

By the time this epistle was written, Israel had already departed into blindness and unbelief: and Paul was imprisoned in Rome. Where God was revealing to Him the truth concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ, and of the risen Christ as it's Head. This truth that had been hid in God since the world began (Ephesians 3:9), and was not therefore the subject of Old Testament prophecy.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Click to expand...

Hi Chris

I believe we've had this discussion before. Ephesians 1 is referring to Israel. Note in the opening, the letter is to the saints and the faithful. Two groups. We'll see this all the way through chapter 2. Paul begins with what is known as a Hebraism, a praise to God for what He's done for Israel. Again, notice two groups, us, we, our, and you and your. Verses 3 -12 are a praise to God for what He's done for Israel. In verse 13 Paul addresses the Gentiles believers with, "in whom you also". "In whom you also" is in opposition to, we, our, us. Here's a link to a more in depth break down of the passage. Ephesians 1 Commentary
 
Jesus was more than mere human like us: Jesus was fully God and fully Human. It is because Jesus was fully human that He could be tempted, and it is because He was fully God that He could not sin. Therefore, Sue's husband did answer wrongly, and so did you.
 
Butch5 said:
I have to agree with your husband. I would also answer yes. If He couldn't sin He couldn't be tempted. Scripture says He was.

I'm not the only one who has it right. However, I only debate subjects which I have studied intensely. If you notice you don't see me debating end times subjects. That's not an area where I have done intensive study.
Click to expand...
Jesus was more than mere human like us: Jesus was fully God and fully Human. It is because Jesus was fully human that He could be tempted, and it is because Jesus was fully God that He could not sin. Therefore, Sue's husband did answer wrongly, and so did you.
 
JerryfromMass said:
Jesus was more than mere human like us: Jesus was fully God and fully Human. It is because Jesus was fully human that He could be tempted, and it is because Jesus was fully God that He could not sin. Therefore, Sue's husband did answer wrongly, and so did you.
Click to expand...
You can't be fully two different things.
 
Born Again 2004 said:
God works in mysterious ways!!!
Click to expand...
That doesn't mean we accept a logical contradiction. But, even aside from that Paul tells us clearly that Christ was in the form of God and emptied Himself.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Phil. 2:5-8 NAS)

He was in the form of God, emptied Himself of the form of God, took on the form of man and became man. That's not being fully two different things.
 
Butch5 said:
That doesn't mean we accept a logical contradiction. But, even aside from that Paul tells us clearly that Christ was in the form of God and emptied Himself.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Phil. 2:5-8 NAS)

He was in the form of God, emptied Himself of the form of God, took on the form of man and became man. That's not being fully two different things.
Click to expand...
So YOU say, I'm not interested; God can do all things ...THAT, I'm interested in !
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Chris

I believe we've had this discussion before. Ephesians 1 is referring to Israel. Note in the opening, the letter is to the saints and the faithful. Two groups. We'll see this all the way through chapter 2. Paul begins with what is known as a Hebraism, a praise to God for what He's done for Israel. Again, notice two groups, us, we, our, and you and your. Verses 3 -12 are a praise to God for what He's done for Israel. In verse 13 Paul addresses the Gentiles believers with, "in whom you also". "In whom you also" is in opposition to, we, our, us. Here's a link to a more in depth break down of the passage. Ephesians 1 Commentary
Click to expand...
(Re: Reply42 - Page 2)

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus,
and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ.'
(Ephesians 1:1)

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, we have discussed this before, as you say: in regard to the grammar of the opening verses of chapter one in a previous thread; so I will not labour the point. Thank you for giving me the link to the commentary on Ephesians: however having read what the writer has to say, I find I cannot agree with his reasoning. If this is what you believe to be true, no amount of argument will convince you otherwise, but I am truly sorry that you have been influenced by such an interpretation.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
complete said:
(Re: Reply42 - Page 2)

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus,
and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ.'
(Ephesians 1:1)

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, we have discussed this before, as you say: in regard to the grammar of the opening verses of chapter one in a previous thread; so I will not labour the point. Thank you for giving me the link to the commentary on Ephesians: however having read what the writer has to say, I find I cannot agree with him. If this is what you believe to be true, no amount of argument will convince you otherwise, but I am truly sorry that you have been influenced by such an interpretation.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Click to expand...

Hi Chris,

I am the writer, so yes, I agree with what I wrote. I think it's clear if we let the Scriptures speak. We see a contrast between Jew and Gentile all through the first two chapters culminating at the end of chapter 2.

Paul tells us plainly who the "you" are that he's writing about.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (Eph. 2:11-12 KJV)

The "you" of verses 12 and 13 are Gentiles in the flesh.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Chris,

I am the writer, so yes, I agree with what I wrote. I think it's clear if we let the Scriptures speak. We see a contrast between Jew and Gentile all through the first two chapters culminating at the end of chapter 2.

Paul tells us plainly who the "you" are that he's writing about.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (Eph. 2:11-12 KJV)

The "you" of verses 12 and 13 are Gentiles in the flesh.
Click to expand...
Hello @Butch5,

Yes, it is clear that it is to the Gentiles (in the flesh) that this was addressed . I would like to discuss this further, but it will derail the subject of this thread. Please allow me to pm you on this subject, with the view to perhaps discussing this openly in a thread for that purpose later.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
complete said:
Hello @Butch5,

Yes, it is clear that it is to the Gentiles (in the flesh) that this was addressed . I would like to discuss this further, but it will derail the subject of this thread. Please allow me to pm you on this subject, with the view to perhaps discussing this openly in a thread for that purpose later.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Click to expand...
Hi Chris,

Sure! That would be great.
 
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