Yes indeed, this is a major struggle and without employing the help of HolySpirit a futile one. good post Konquistador
The ten commandments helpful?
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Yes indeed, this is a major struggle and without employing the help of HolySpirit a futile one. good post Konquistador
Truly a missunderstanding of the extent of what God gave to us through His son Jesus Christ. Jesus has made me perfect without any merit on my part making me the righteousness of the law. If I am made the righteousness of the law then the law is no longer needed. If I am made the righteousness of the law through Christ but I do the deeds of the flesh then the problem is not with the gift. The problem lies within me. If righteousness comes by faith and I still sin then the problem is that of faith or should I say lack of it.
When I come to the fullness of the faith or should I say fully matured in the faith then I am no longer doing the deeds of the flesh. Surely at this point the flesh will be dead. Jesus gave me His perfect righteousness there is no sin in righteousness if there is no sin in righteousness than there is no need of the law. This should be manifested in the works of my body, if it is not then I still remain in the flesh through unbelief.
The only purpose of the law is to point out sin, sin is of the flesh so if I sin it is that of the flesh, and I am still in the flesh. But I have been made perfect already in Jesus. Since I have already been given the perfect obedience of Jesus which is His righteousness then I should be perfectly obedient, that is the ultimate gift. If I am perfectly obedient to the law through faith then the law is truly done away with, but if I am disobedient to the law through unbelief then how can the law be done away with? My actions show my faith wether faith unto obedience or unbelief unto disobedience. Faith is not some superficial thing it is and "action" based on a belief by both thought and deed.
If I truly believe that I have been made the righteousness of God through Christ wouldn't my actions show it through faith and love? If I still sin then it is not of faith but of unbelief. Whatever is not of faith is sin.
The issue here is a missunderstanding of faith, and the power behind it. Through faith I do the righteousness of the law because it is an action of faith, not to be saved but because I believe I am already saved, what am I saved from? Sin. I have been set apart from it already through the blood of Christ. If I still sin then I am not set apart from it but I am still wallowing in it. Would the problem then be through the gift, or is the problem me? Certainly not the gift.
The Jews tried to earn thier salvation through keeping the law. Paul was telling them in the book of Romans that they have already been given thier salvation, not by thier obedience but through the obedience of Christ. If they have already been given thier salvation through the obedience of Christ then thier efforts of trying to keep the law was pointless, because they were trying to achieve that which was already given to them. Trying to keep the law then has no value. The law is not for those that believe and thier actions show thier belief, it is for those that don't believe whose actions are that of the flesh.
Faith is an action that takes place in the heart and manifests itself through the works of the individual so they are no longer doing the acts of sin, and for such there is no law.
The product of faith is and actual transformation that takes place in me mentally and then pyhsically. It is no longer me but Christ in me.
When I come to the fullness of the faith or should I say fully matured in the faith then I am no longer doing the deeds of the flesh. Surely at this point the flesh will be dead. Jesus gave me His perfect righteousness there is no sin in righteousness if there is no sin in righteousness than there is no need of the law. This should be manifested in the works of my body, if it is not then I still remain in the flesh through unbelief.
The only purpose of the law is to point out sin, sin is of the flesh so if I sin it is that of the flesh, and I am still in the flesh. But I have been made perfect already in Jesus. Since I have already been given the perfect obedience of Jesus which is His righteousness then I should be perfectly obedient, that is the ultimate gift. If I am perfectly obedient to the law through faith then the law is truly done away with, but if I am disobedient to the law through unbelief then how can the law be done away with? My actions show my faith wether faith unto obedience or unbelief unto disobedience. Faith is not some superficial thing it is and "action" based on a belief by both thought and deed.
If I truly believe that I have been made the righteousness of God through Christ wouldn't my actions show it through faith and love? If I still sin then it is not of faith but of unbelief. Whatever is not of faith is sin.
The issue here is a missunderstanding of faith, and the power behind it. Through faith I do the righteousness of the law because it is an action of faith, not to be saved but because I believe I am already saved, what am I saved from? Sin. I have been set apart from it already through the blood of Christ. If I still sin then I am not set apart from it but I am still wallowing in it. Would the problem then be through the gift, or is the problem me? Certainly not the gift.
The Jews tried to earn thier salvation through keeping the law. Paul was telling them in the book of Romans that they have already been given thier salvation, not by thier obedience but through the obedience of Christ. If they have already been given thier salvation through the obedience of Christ then thier efforts of trying to keep the law was pointless, because they were trying to achieve that which was already given to them. Trying to keep the law then has no value. The law is not for those that believe and thier actions show thier belief, it is for those that don't believe whose actions are that of the flesh.
Faith is an action that takes place in the heart and manifests itself through the works of the individual so they are no longer doing the acts of sin, and for such there is no law.
The product of faith is and actual transformation that takes place in me mentally and then pyhsically. It is no longer me but Christ in me.
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YES!
Transformed by the renewing of our minds! Rom 12:2
Doesn't occurr for some all at once. A process for sure. That's why repentence and getting back on that horse so to speak is so important. Once you've let sin back into your life, you once again fall under the jurisdiction of the law and are not walking in the spirit.
Gal 5:16-23
Well said brother.
YBIC
Maranatha
I respect all of the opinions and views put out in this thread. I may not agree with some of them, but all christians are different. They all believe in different little things here and there. Everyone reads the bible and understands it differently. You could be wrong, you could be right. Not a lot of people in this world can honestly say that they understand the word 100%. The main things can be clearly seen to just about anyone who wants to listen, and even some of those who don't. Have faith and love one another. Do good and avoid doing bad. I believe that it's that simple. All it takes to enter the kingdom of heaven is belief, sure. To life an easier life, to make yourself and others happy, spread love and give it where it is need. Give it everywhere!
Learn to accept peoples opinions and views, open your hearts and stop them from being so tightly closed. With all these little details, it just looks like some of you have forgotten what really matters. Faith and love. God and Jesus Christ is something we all have in common, so why include all these little details? Yes they are important, yes they are amazing to hear about. Express yourself! Tell the world how you feel. This however is not a battle or a war among ourselves.
No one is sinless. While on this earth, it is impossible to ever become sinless in the body. However when we gain faith and knowledge and love, our body dies. It doesnt POOF gone, but it becomes separate from our hearts. That's when our hearts/soul becomes imbued with the holy spirit, and is purified. That is the first step in a long process, that seals us with salvation. It is new, and beautiful.
We are still on this earth, living inside our sinful nature. Surrounded by sin everywhere we turn. From billboards, tv, books, music, and even our dearest friends or loved ones. We can't just hide from that, or eliminate it. You will forever live in sin while on this earth and in your body. You will never completely stop sinning. If you could stop 100%, that would make you perfect on this earth. That would cause Jesus Christ to be just some random person and no one important. Which we ALL know that he is. He IS our lamb, our only chance. Jesus Christ and God are literally our entire worlds and everything in it.
So to conclude this entire long and annoying rant I am going about I will make one final point again. Nothing else matters. None of it. Believe in God and Jesus Christ, have faith and trust in them. Believe that they will never leave you. Believe that through them you will have eternal life. Also, Love everyone. Try your hardest to just Love everyone you see or talk to, the whole entire world and everyone in it. No matter their opinions in christianity. No matter their beliefs. No matter how they look. No matter what they do horrible or good. That's all that really matters. That is the sum of the new testament. That is our law now.
I'm not trying to tell anyone what to believe because I respect each and everyone of you. You all are right and wrong at the same exact time. Even though that's the fact, you're doing it right in the end. All of you. It's very simple and very comforting. That's why it is the way it is. God wants everyone comfortable and loving, not crazy and freaking out.
Please, no more aggressive or sarcastic words. No more arguing. We are fighting the same fight here. We all need each other equally. We are all the same.
Learn to accept peoples opinions and views, open your hearts and stop them from being so tightly closed. With all these little details, it just looks like some of you have forgotten what really matters. Faith and love. God and Jesus Christ is something we all have in common, so why include all these little details? Yes they are important, yes they are amazing to hear about. Express yourself! Tell the world how you feel. This however is not a battle or a war among ourselves.
No one is sinless. While on this earth, it is impossible to ever become sinless in the body. However when we gain faith and knowledge and love, our body dies. It doesnt POOF gone, but it becomes separate from our hearts. That's when our hearts/soul becomes imbued with the holy spirit, and is purified. That is the first step in a long process, that seals us with salvation. It is new, and beautiful.
We are still on this earth, living inside our sinful nature. Surrounded by sin everywhere we turn. From billboards, tv, books, music, and even our dearest friends or loved ones. We can't just hide from that, or eliminate it. You will forever live in sin while on this earth and in your body. You will never completely stop sinning. If you could stop 100%, that would make you perfect on this earth. That would cause Jesus Christ to be just some random person and no one important. Which we ALL know that he is. He IS our lamb, our only chance. Jesus Christ and God are literally our entire worlds and everything in it.
So to conclude this entire long and annoying rant I am going about I will make one final point again. Nothing else matters. None of it. Believe in God and Jesus Christ, have faith and trust in them. Believe that they will never leave you. Believe that through them you will have eternal life. Also, Love everyone. Try your hardest to just Love everyone you see or talk to, the whole entire world and everyone in it. No matter their opinions in christianity. No matter their beliefs. No matter how they look. No matter what they do horrible or good. That's all that really matters. That is the sum of the new testament. That is our law now.
I'm not trying to tell anyone what to believe because I respect each and everyone of you. You all are right and wrong at the same exact time. Even though that's the fact, you're doing it right in the end. All of you. It's very simple and very comforting. That's why it is the way it is. God wants everyone comfortable and loving, not crazy and freaking out.
Please, no more aggressive or sarcastic words. No more arguing. We are fighting the same fight here. We all need each other equally. We are all the same.
Hello Fraction,
I understand your feelings and this is not a war bewtween ourselves. We share the gospel as we understand it, because we do care about each other. We all want to see each other in the kingdom of heaven and I am looking forward to seeing all of you.
There is a reason the gospel is called the good news. If sin is the sting of death.!Cor.15;56,57 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus needs to take the sting out of us because it is a poison that kills. That is precisly what He did and is doing. The law shows us the poison and by the grace of God Through Jesus He takes it out as we are willing to let go of it. As He relieves us from it one sting at a time our faith grows and grows and the love grows as well. As our faith grows the law is needed less and less until it has no purpose at all, because all of the poison is gone. If the purpose of the law is to show the poison in us and there is no poison in anymore then the law is done away with it has lost it's reason for existence.
Jesus destroyed sin at the cross the law was abolished as well because sin was destroyed. If sin was destroyed at the cross and I sin the very act shows my unbelief in the gift that Jesus gave to me. If I sin then I am also holding on to the law. When the things I profess is not in line with that which I preach then you see I have a problem of unbelief regardless of what I say. The law then shows me my unbelief. Jesus abolished it but my sin through unbelief revived it. Jesus said you know them by thier fruits.
Paul says in Romans 6:18,22 that we are made free from sin, but if I sin then I am showing my unbelief. If I am free from it how can I do it except that I don't believe it?
God's last church on earth is to live completely without sin, because when Jesus returns they will meet Him face to face without seeing death. If you remember the story of Moses when he took the law from the son of God he was not aloud to look upon His face for if he did he would have died, because he was a sinner. So if we have sin in us when Jesus returns we will also die. The wicked will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming. The difference between the wicked and the righteous is the righteous have no sin in them because they have been completely cleansed of sin through faith in the blood of the lamb. Faith has then caught up with the gift. When Jesus died He cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness we have a faith problem that is why we still sin regardless what we say, the proof is in our actions.
Until we get to the root of the problem now, we can't learn how to live a sinless life. The message have been trying to share is exactly that. To prepare for the coming of the Lord.
I understand your feelings and this is not a war bewtween ourselves. We share the gospel as we understand it, because we do care about each other. We all want to see each other in the kingdom of heaven and I am looking forward to seeing all of you.
There is a reason the gospel is called the good news. If sin is the sting of death.!Cor.15;56,57 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus needs to take the sting out of us because it is a poison that kills. That is precisly what He did and is doing. The law shows us the poison and by the grace of God Through Jesus He takes it out as we are willing to let go of it. As He relieves us from it one sting at a time our faith grows and grows and the love grows as well. As our faith grows the law is needed less and less until it has no purpose at all, because all of the poison is gone. If the purpose of the law is to show the poison in us and there is no poison in anymore then the law is done away with it has lost it's reason for existence.
Jesus destroyed sin at the cross the law was abolished as well because sin was destroyed. If sin was destroyed at the cross and I sin the very act shows my unbelief in the gift that Jesus gave to me. If I sin then I am also holding on to the law. When the things I profess is not in line with that which I preach then you see I have a problem of unbelief regardless of what I say. The law then shows me my unbelief. Jesus abolished it but my sin through unbelief revived it. Jesus said you know them by thier fruits.
Paul says in Romans 6:18,22 that we are made free from sin, but if I sin then I am showing my unbelief. If I am free from it how can I do it except that I don't believe it?
God's last church on earth is to live completely without sin, because when Jesus returns they will meet Him face to face without seeing death. If you remember the story of Moses when he took the law from the son of God he was not aloud to look upon His face for if he did he would have died, because he was a sinner. So if we have sin in us when Jesus returns we will also die. The wicked will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming. The difference between the wicked and the righteous is the righteous have no sin in them because they have been completely cleansed of sin through faith in the blood of the lamb. Faith has then caught up with the gift. When Jesus died He cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness we have a faith problem that is why we still sin regardless what we say, the proof is in our actions.
Until we get to the root of the problem now, we can't learn how to live a sinless life. The message have been trying to share is exactly that. To prepare for the coming of the Lord.
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Konquistador
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The point of life on earth is not to prepare for anything as selfish as being saved for the goodness of the next life.
The point of life on earth, according to Jesus, is to do what God wants. Jesus summarized this and all scripture and the prophets, as Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do these things, and you have no worries about the next life. Worry about your next life, and you are being selfish and as bound by rules like the Pharisees, and guaranteeing you will not be with God in the eternal afterlife. At least that's what Jesus said in a number of places, you verse-lovers can look it up.
Perfection IS possible on this earth, according to Paul, if what you think and do is out of love for God and love of neighbor. That doesn't mean there won't be mistakes, but mistakes are not sin if genuinely done for love of neighbor.
The point of life on earth, according to Jesus, is to do what God wants. Jesus summarized this and all scripture and the prophets, as Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do these things, and you have no worries about the next life. Worry about your next life, and you are being selfish and as bound by rules like the Pharisees, and guaranteeing you will not be with God in the eternal afterlife. At least that's what Jesus said in a number of places, you verse-lovers can look it up.
Perfection IS possible on this earth, according to Paul, if what you think and do is out of love for God and love of neighbor. That doesn't mean there won't be mistakes, but mistakes are not sin if genuinely done for love of neighbor.
I agree with you that we no longer live for selfish motives, becuase we are now being moved by love, wanting with our whole hearts to please God and to give Him honour and glory. But then again this is no longer us, but God working in us. God is perfect there is no reason not to believe that such a powerful God cannot shape and mold us into exactly what He wants us to be. It is true that we are weak in the flesh, but greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. Where sin abounds grace much more abounds.
We keep getting ourselves in the way, Paul says we are dead in Christ. The gift given to us was no less than perfect so why should we doubt that He is able to work that perfect gift in us. If we are truly dead as Paul said then Christ is completely alive and Christ is completley perfect. Righteousness comes by faith, why should we put limits on what God is able to do? Why would we want to?
God is more powerful than my weakness, I just have to believe that He can work that power in me which will destroy my weakness. We also need to focus more on what He is able to do and not on what we are not able to do.
I like your post Konquistador everthing must work by love for God is love.
We keep getting ourselves in the way, Paul says we are dead in Christ. The gift given to us was no less than perfect so why should we doubt that He is able to work that perfect gift in us. If we are truly dead as Paul said then Christ is completely alive and Christ is completley perfect. Righteousness comes by faith, why should we put limits on what God is able to do? Why would we want to?
God is more powerful than my weakness, I just have to believe that He can work that power in me which will destroy my weakness. We also need to focus more on what He is able to do and not on what we are not able to do.
I like your post Konquistador everthing must work by love for God is love.
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Let's see if I got this right. You are saying that any action on an individual’s part if done out of genuine love though a mistake is not a sin? If so, doesn't this require a standard by which genuine love is defined by? It must be God in the form of Jesus, because man without the Holy Spirit would lack the capacity to define what love is. Yes/No? I state it in this way, because God showed love in a way that was not and to this day, cannot be accepted by the majority of people. These people would see it as a mistake, and so an action of an imperfect god to sacrifice ones son. So in truth, genuine love could not be a mistake or a sin, just an unfathomable love that only through the Holy Spirit could we even begin to understand.
Haven't read your other posts. Just working my way down. Can't wait!
C4E
Dear Konquistador.
God actually wants us to do two things.
1 John 3:23
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. (NKJV)
The will of God is that you believe in His son the messiah above all.
In doing this we receive the Holy Spirit and slowly grow in love towards both Jesus Christ and our neighbour (especially those of the faith).
God actually wants us to do two things.
1 John 3:23
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. (NKJV)
The will of God is that you believe in His son the messiah above all.
In doing this we receive the Holy Spirit and slowly grow in love towards both Jesus Christ and our neighbour (especially those of the faith).
Konquistador
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I am referring to a person's actions out of love for God and/or neighbor. Let's say you see someone living a few doors down from you who is hungry, and out of love for your neighbor you bring them some food that you made yourself, and tell them you made it from scratch, which is true. Let's say you included some artificial flavoring and coloring, though. The person eats your food, and gets really sick because he's allergic to artifical flavorings and colorings, plus allergic the the peanut oil you used to fry part of the food. He has to be taken by ambulance to the hospital, barely saving his life and costing him a lot of money that he doesn't have. You acted out of love but did harm to the person. Not on purpose, but the whole episode of your trying to help the person ended up causing a lot of harm. Would it be a sin to feed this food to the person if you KNEW about his allergies? Yes, without question in my mind. Is it a sin to do so but you don't know about his allergies? No, that is not a sin, it is a mistake. Once you realize your mistake, I think you are obligated to do something about it, it would be a sin to try to make excuses and blame the other person, etc.
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Konquistador
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I have no argument with what you say until the last phrase in parentheses. Jesus was quite specific about especially needing to love our enemies, it's easy to love those with whom we agree or share a similar faith.
Dear Konquistador.
Problem with the last phrase, I do not know why you have a problem with that. Check the following,
Galatians 6:10
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
Problem with the last phrase, I do not know why you have a problem with that. Check the following,
Galatians 6:10
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
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Sorry “what if”, scenarios have a tendency to make me growl. I even have a tendency to use that type of scenario. LOL Reminds me of the Pharisees with Jesus. That’s why I attempt to stay away from it, and I’m not always successful in doing so.
Now to continue on with your scenario you posed. What if the person accepts salvation due their close call, because they now see the fragility of life? Regardless of the cost as the world sees it, would you still classify this as a mistake done out of love?
You know we could go on like this? Not knowing the end results of all things, and seeing them in the perspective as man would and not in the Spirit, opens the door for us to classify our acts of love as possible mistakes. It is part of the problem which can and does prevent believers from action. An example would be how people who are going through trials and tribulations have difficulty coming to grips with the concept that it may be reflective of God’s love and not some terrible mistake. We don’t always understand His purpose, but knowing that He does what He does out of Love for us, and we as His Children, need to at times to do the same, with those we love makes it even harder for unbelievers to come to any understanding of what God’s love means outside of the Cross. You who have the Holy Spirit to guide you in all you do. Unless you’re going against scripture, don’t ever classify your actions of love as a mistake. YBIC
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Agree with you on any sarcastic words that are posted here ought not to be, since we should be able to reason without being offensive. That we can be aggressive I’m sure, but it’s probably closer to being passionate about His Word that we respond as we do. Ever see brothers or sisters not have any arguments? It’s done out of Love of God and His Word. I would hope that when we go back and forth, that we’re more like Prov 27:17 “Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend” than any intentional hurt to another. If at any time some have been hurt by the words I’ve posted here, it was and is not my intent to do so and I’m sure others would agree with this. Hopefully, this last statement of mine will be no cause for further arguments!
Konquistador
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Make whatever twists you want, but neither Jesus nor Paul nor Wesley nor Luther or other theologians are talking about using verses of the Bible or overview statements as theoretical exercises. They are statements about what God wants. And if what God wants is for us to show love for neighbor, the question I was responding to was about how you show love if you are "saved". My answer was according to how I interpret Jesus, Paul, Luther, and Wesley, that if you are behaving with love it is not sin. But what if your loving behavior does harm? I simply stated that I believe the consensus of theologians, who quote Paul, Luther, and Wesley texts, that a "mistake" is not a "sin" if done in the context of love for neighbor in one's heart.
