The ten commandments helpful?

[papajim]

Thank you for your time and patients David777! our conservations has been a real blessing to me and also that of jiggyfly and has helped me to grow into to Christ even more.

I do agree that Jesus is our sabbath rest, but to say that we gentiles don't have a sabbath, I disagree.

There is one God and one truth for all of mankind, Jesus died for all of us. I don't believe that we are the gentiles anymore that we are now modern day Isreal. The barrier is now between those that believe and those that don't, but then again it has always been that way. Written over the head of Jesus at the cross was "This is Jesus King of the Jews." Jesus is not the King of the Gentiles for they will have no part of Him. He is only the king of those that believe. Jesus is my king making me a Jew in the eyes of God. Also the city in Heaven is called New Jeruselum, all that will enter in are Jews. For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward of the flesh. But he is a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. There are other texts that go with this one to prove my point.

In the old testemant the Jews were the light bearers of the one true God, but more often than not thy apostized from the truth and worshiped the false gods of the pagans. They killed the prophets throughout the ages and also the son of God. They were an obstinate and rebelious nation.

This is a mistake that people make when they look at prophecy such as the 144,000. Because they look at Rev. 7 they assume that it is the Isereal that is in the middle east. I believe that the names are symbolic as Revelation is a symbolic book. One reason I believe it is symbolic is that the tribe of Dan is not mentioned and the tribe of Levi took the place of Dan. Compare Numbers chapter 1 (especially read 1:47) with Rev. 7
This is a study that I really didn't want to get into at this time, but may God lead,
This is a whole study in itself.

But this subject was on the sabbath, so back to it.

The sabbath was given long before the written law, and long before the Jews, it was a part of creation. On the 7th day God rested from all of His work.. Now we know that God did'nt need to rest so it was set up for a purpose, for us. Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man. Ask youself why, and notice he didn't say that it was made for the Jews, but for man. As we get into this I will show how I think the gospel message is in the sabbath day as given by the commandment.

Now remember every thing that I share is based on the foundation on which we have already agreed, so if it dosen't agree with the true gospel then I have to throw it out. That foundation will be the bases of all my beliefs and studies and of every doctrine. Everything outside of this truth is false. Wouldn't you agree with this statement?

 

[Christ4Ever]

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles hence mention of the Law is almost non existant in his letters.

Paul did mention the law liberally throughout his letters and not as you mentioned. Half of Romans deals with the subject or makes mention of it.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Two questions folks:

(1) Is homosexuality a sin for a Christian?

a. If yes why?

b. If not why not?

Note: Scripture supporting either position would be appreciated.

(2) Does love & law conflict in any way in applying a standard of behavior which could knowingly or unknowingly lead us in our actions to being disobedience to God?

 

[David777]

Hello ChristforEver.

Homosexuality is dealt with by the Jerusalem Council in the book of acts. It is sexual immorality.

Your statement that the law is spread through Paul's letters is not true. Sure it is dealt with in Romans, but Paul is directly addressing Jews in this Roman Church. In fact the subject of the letter to the Romans is Law and Grace. Paul knew the Jews resident in Rome would
tear the Church apart, as they did in the Galation Church. It is in chapter two that Paul begins the demolition of the Jewish belief in the law and sacrifice for justification.

I will repeat myself, we are in Christ, this is spiritual, we are not Jewish, we do not have to conduct sacrifices. We have no earthly temple, no priestly class, etc. You are still viewing Christ in the flesh and not in the spirit.

Law is useless in defense against sin, either as a non Christian or as a Christian. Surely you realise this Christforever. This Mosaic Law is so limited in defining sin. We have no self righteousness in Christ or out of Christ.

 

[David777]

Need clarification.

Hello again Christforever, need you to explain this statement,

(2) Does love & law conflict in any way in applying a standard of behavior which could knowingly or unknowingly lead us in our actions to being disobedience to God?

Unsure what you are talking about. Standards of behaviour? Love and law?

 

[David777]

What mention of Law.

Dear Christforever, Paul certainly does not mention the law in Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians or 1 and 2 Thessalonians. You need to examine the above texts and respond asap.

You also need to retract your statement "Paul did mention the law liberally throughout his letters and not as you mentioned" as other people read these posts. It would be a serious error to mislead others.

 

[papajim]

Homosexuality is of the flesh, it is an act of the flesh both of mind and action. The act of homosexuality both in thought and action is to be crucified in Christ as is disobedience to the law which is also of the flesh, for both Jew and gentile.

The letter that Paul wrote in Romans was indeed to the Jews, but the pricipal applies to everyone. To say that the law was just for the Jews is incorrect, the law was for the sinner which was for Jew, Gentile, Christian. "Through the law comes the knowledge of sin." All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. All men are sinners in need of the grace of God. To say the law is only for the Jews is to say that only the Jews sin.

Law and love are not to be seperated for the law teaches love, Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and love thy neighbor as thy self on this hang the law and the prophets.

The problem with the law is it cannot teach us the fullness of love, it only teaches us what love isn't as in "thou shall not." To understand a true love that is a Godly love, or agape love we need to go to the cross, Christ and Him crucified. Only then can we begin to understand what true love is.

The law has it's place in the gospel it tells us what sin is which is love undone if you will, and that we are in need of a savior. All sin is of the flesh, that is what the flesh is, sin. It can only sin because the flesh is sin. Christ came in the flesh, He became sin for us put it to death in life and crucified it at the cross. So in Christ I am freed from sin because there is no sin in Christ. Now if I sin I am no longer in Christ, the law revives and the flesh is resurrected, because sin is an act of the flesh not an act of Christ. I cannot sin while I am in Christ so if I sin I have crucified Christ in me all over again. I have to first seperate myself from Christ to sin. The law again tells me the seperation has taken place. Does that mean I am lost? No. I am covered by the imputed righteousness of Christ. I am learning to grow up into Christ. This is a life long journey. It is the ministry of Christ to sanctify me which is taught by the laws of the sancturary (imparted righteousness) my part is to confess (acknowledge) and repent (Heartfelt desire to change). Bye the way confession and repentence is not of the flesh it is the first steps to being in Christ, it is also a gift of God.

In Christ I live in harmony with the law, in the flesh I am under the law. In Christ I am alive, in the flesh I am dead.

 

[David777]

Hello again papajim.

Dear Papajim, i am replying to your earlier post, you said:

"He is only the king of those that believe. Jesus is my king making me a Jew in the eyes of God."

Now read the following quotes and see if they agree with what you said.

Galatians 3:28 (NKJV)

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Colossians 3:11

"where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all."

Please respond when you have time.

 

[Fraction]

Im gonna 100% agree with Giggles4God, and its exactly right!:shock:

 

[David777]

Again Papajim.

Why you singled out the Sabbath day escapes me.

It is mentioned in the Jewish Law please note the following:

Exodus 20 (NKJV)

8 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."

We are Gentile sinners, uncircumsised, dogs, we came to Christ apart from the law. Your Sabbath day has no relevance to Gentiles, nor does the sacrifices, the priests, nor Jerusalem. This is the law, the written code brings death. This is the Old Covenant Jesus made with Israel, it is obsolete, redundant.

We are filled with the Spirit of Life, we follow Jesus, we are forgiven.
This Jewish Covenant has no place in our New Covenant with Jesus.

 

[David777]

Under the law?

Read the following extract from Paul's letter to the Galatians. Note, you can substitute any law including the Sabbath for circumcised. Also pay special attention to line 3.

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. (Galatians 5:2-6)

You are in trouble Papajim but you do not realise the danger you are in. The Jewish Law including the sabbath are not based on faith. We follow Jesus by faith not by rules or special days, etc.

 

[Fraction]

This post has confused me a whole bunch, the inner conflict in it. I made a post but decided to just get rid of it. D:

 

[David777]

Dear Fraction.

This is the very point i was hoping to clarify.

You said:

"This only means that your spirit which was imbued by the holy spirit will follow the law."

You are not following the written code in Christ! You are led by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. Not the law Faction.

This is the error i was dealing with in my posts. This law brings death to those who gaze upon it as the Israelites did. In Christ we are a New Spiritual Creation, set free from all attempts at self righteousness, set free from law, sacrifice, etc. Live in the Spirit not the flesh, Jesus Christ is the beginning and end of everything.

Sorry if anyone was upset but this is a critical mistake that some Gentile Christians make when reading the New Testament. This problem always demands rectification.

 

[papajim]

Thank you Fraction

I did get your post and it was a great incourgement to me, just when I needed it. I would like to move on, but I can't until David777 understands, for every other doctrine is based on this foundation. If it is not unerderstood soon I will have to move on, possibly by starting a new thread.

 

[papajim]

David when I said I was a Jew I was talking spiritually not physically.
We are all one in Christ regardless of background or race. Christ is spiritual His people are spiritual so I am talking in a spiritual sense.

For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart in the spirit and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Seems we are going in circles.

When the law is mention red flags go up in your head and you are resistant to what is being said. You are to quick to defend what Jesus has given us as if I am trying to decieve you. Because you defense is up so high you can't comprehend what I am saying.

You know that I'm not saying that we are saved by keeping the law, I have never said that and I don't believe it. We are saved only by the grace of God. You also know that the flesh can only sin because that is what the flesh is and does and that is precisly what I am trying to say. The flesh sins, if we sin it is an act of the flesh, meaning the flesh is still alive in us and we have not allowed it to be crucified in Christ, because of either rebelion or unbelief. If I sin the law is telling me something, It is telling me that I have gone back to the flesh and my relationship with Christ has been ruptured. I don't try and repair that relationship by trying to keep the law that would be pointless and impossible. I instead work on my relationship with Christ so that the flesh will again be crucified in Christ. When the flesh is crucified then disobedience will cease. The law only points out the flaws in my Character and the void in my relationship with Christ. To fix it I simply work on repairing that void. The goal of the Christian is to be one with Christ and that is what we should endevour to be. Obedience to the law will then natuarlly take place.

It is not law verses grace, but law with grace. The law points out my faults and grace gives me victory over my faults. They work together to bring me to the perfect righteousness of God in Christ.

Bye the way the moral law or the testament tells us what sin is and what the flesh does, the sanctuary laws teaches us what grace is, it teaches us the ministry of Christ. The sacrificial lamb was only the beggining of the ministry of Christ.

"To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word there is no light in them." The law of grace and the law of the testament.

I can't share the gospel in the sabbath until this is understood.

 

[jiggyfly]

Here is a very similar thread.
http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/5293-mixing-grace-law.html

 

[papajim]

Thank you for your particapation JF,

I have read the first paragraph of the thread and I all I heard was the fallacy of ways to earn our salvation. You and I know that there is no way to earn our salvation it is a gift from God in Christ Jesus. Maybe that has been the problem in our communication is that you think that I am saying it is about our works. I have continuesly said that it is not, but it is the grace of God working in us through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I have read Eph2: and find it to be in perfect harmony with what I understand. Motivation seems to possibly be the problem of our language barrier, I don't want the law to be written in my mind and heart to earn salvation, it is because I already have salvation. The motivation is love not guilt. Faith that works by love. I have assurance through Christ that my sins are forgiven apart from anything I can do to earn salvation. As I have already said there is nothing I can do to earn salvation all I can do is except it through faith.

I will continue to read the thread and study.

 

[Fraction]

I find in myself the need to jump into this because it has this pull on me that I can't get away from. So I'm gonna sum this up real quick.

Jiggyfly, you are saying that in no way will obeying the old law we will find salvation. In no actions will be find salvation, at least actions that we can see. So then like explained in the new covenant that salvation and eternal life will be found in faith and faith alone. Didn't this exist before? Was Abraham not saved by faith? Was Noah not saved by faith? It is also clear that they followed gods wishes and laws in actions. Noah built the Arc, and Abraham went through with the offering of his sons life. (which was stopped, I know )

So then, what can we take from all of this? Faith and grace will lock us into Salvation and eternal life. It will forever write our names into the book of life. (Of course unless we backslide into so much destruction that we lose our faith)

I do have a question for you. You abide and swear by the new law which is very very simple. Faith and Grace, Love and care for god and your brothers and sisters. (I like to add sisters because im weird, sorry)

So what I get from all that, is that sin has died to us. I love everyone, I always have. Even when I claim I hate them, I feel despair for saying so. I always end up making amends at least in my heart.

However the fine details still remain. So its not a sin anymore to lust, pleasure oneself or watch pornography? It's not a sin anymore to be a homosexual? Are those things not sin anymore?

So all of the old law has been stricken from the record (in a spiritual way) and all we should do is love one another?

You supply constant evidence of the fact that we now are under new law spiritually. Paul himself even said his body was still under the law of sin, but his mind under the law of god. I think that actually does apply to everyone of us. Since our bodies are directly assaulted by satan. He doesnt want us to feel safe in gods arms.

So if possible, can you redirect your debate. Aid a baby christian. Tell me in great and amazing detail, here or where ever exactly what this all means.

The truth is, is that I myself is actually burdened by the old law. I respect it and believe in it, but I do break the old law. It brings grief and guilt to me. (Which everyone can actually relate to me I am sure)

So explain your views to me directly. It would be amazing to have the knowledge. I might not accept it and stay in my groove, however I will respect it.

Also, I do believe in saved by grace. Faith = Salvation. I still hold onto the old law, and believe that i should try to follow it and make it a goal. Know what I'm saying?

 

[jiggyfly]

Fraction I have already posted my opinion, the old covenant including the law of Moses which includes the ten commandments have been fulfilled and put away by God. We now live by the Spirit, period. Looking to the law for guidance is ignoring HolySpirit, disobedience to Father and an insult to Christ.

If your interested in learning more, do a topic search on the law and read the numerous threads here @ TJ, there are more than enough without opening another. God bless

 

[Fraction]

You have posted your opinion, you have done it in your way. However, not everyone will understand the way you have put it. I have read your "Mixing Grace With The Law" post. Which I'm sure is all the research I require on the subject. However I do not understand all of your opinion. I am a very open minded person, and I love gathering information and opinions. I just want to be able to take yours with 100% knowledge.

Don't talk to me like I have the knowledge you have, which is the tone I get from you. I obviously do not have the knowledge you have currently, I am a baby christian who is learning. I want to do this correctly, because with my faith I give respect as well. Take no offense, I mean none.

I am not asking your posts, I am asking you as brother to brother. A hungry christian to one with knowledge.

I simply believe that my mind/heart/spirit lives under the law of Christ, and my body lives under the law of sin. That in my spirit I am righteous, in my body I am corrupt. However, I still believe that doing some of the things mentioned in the old testament and in the ten commandments are sins. It is no longer I who do them, but my sinful nature that does. (As you can see, I'm focusing on Romans) This is my view. In my spirit I am no longer under the law of sin, but above it because my spirit imbued with the holy spirit is without a doubt righteous.

How do I know? How can I tell? Obviously sin is recognized through the law, so even you can agree that the law does exist. When we are saved, our hearts are removed from the law. We ourselves gain knowledge and are removed from the punishment of our sinful nature. This is done by Faith and directly followed by Grace. In my mind I clearly can see wrong now. I know how to avoid it. I understand that when my sinful nature completes it, that I need help.

The way I am receiving your opinion is when you're saved, there is no sin. The old commandments mean nothing, not even for knowledge. We shouldn't follow them. We shouldn't even care about them.

So it's kind of like saying, as long as we love everyone we can do whatever we want. So if I believe I love my girlfriend, I can lust and have sex with her? Is it justified? I know it won't remove my name from the book of life, but what would god think? If I lay with another man and perform lust with someone of the same sex, It's okay if I love them? So can I do all of that, and not ever have to confess them? All of that stuff is obviously okay and won't get me booted out of heaven or salvation, but is it now justified because the laws have been set aside, because the laws are not a requirement of salvation?

So explain in a simple way. Provide your scriptures, but explain them. I don't need to go here and there, I'm asking you. If you don't want to answer, that's okay. It's only a request.