The ten commandments helpful?

[jiggyfly]

You have posted your opinion, you have done it in your way. However, not everyone will understand the way you have put it. I have read your "Mixing Grace With The Law" post. Which I'm sure is all the research I require on the subject. However I do not understand all of your opinion. I am a very open minded person, and I love gathering information and opinions. I just want to be able to take yours with 100% knowledge.

Don't talk to me like I have the knowledge you have, which is the tone I get from you. I obviously do not have the knowledge you have currently, I am a baby christian who is learning. I want to do this correctly, because with my faith I give respect as well. Take no offense, I mean none.

I am not asking your posts, I am asking you as brother to brother. A hungry christian to one with knowledge.

I simply believe that my mind/heart/spirit lives under the law of Christ, and my body lives under the law of sin. That in my spirit I am righteous, in my body I am corrupt. However, I still believe that doing some of the things mentioned in the old testament and in the ten commandments are sins. It is no longer I who do them, but my sinful nature that does. (As you can see, I'm focusing on Romans) This is my view. In my spirit I am no longer under the law of sin, but above it because my spirit imbued with the holy spirit is without a doubt righteous.

How do I know? How can I tell? Obviously sin is recognized through the law, so even you can agree that the law does exist. When we are saved, our hearts are removed from the law. We ourselves gain knowledge and are removed from the punishment of our sinful nature. This is done by Faith and directly followed by Grace. In my mind I clearly can see wrong now. I know how to avoid it. I understand that when my sinful nature completes it, that I need help.

The way I am receiving your opinion is when you're saved, there is no sin. The old commandments mean nothing, not even for knowledge. We shouldn't follow them. We shouldn't even care about them.

So it's kind of like saying, as long as we love everyone we can do whatever we want. So if I believe I love my girlfriend, I can lust and have sex with her? Is it justified? I know it won't remove my name from the book of life, but what would god think? If I lay with another man and perform lust with someone of the same sex, It's okay if I love them? So can I do all of that, and not ever have to confess them? All of that stuff is obviously okay and won't get me booted out of heaven or salvation, but is it now justified because the laws have been set aside, because the laws are not a requirement of salvation?

So explain in a simple way. Provide your scriptures, but explain them. I don't need to go here and there, I'm asking you. If you don't want to answer, that's okay. It's only a request.

So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life." This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, "It is through obeying the law that a person has life. But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised [fn] Holy Spirit through faith. Dear brothers and sisters, [fn] here's an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or amend an irrevocable agreement, so it is in this case. God gave the promises to Abraham and his child. [fn] And notice that the Scripture doesn't say "to his children, [fn]" as if it meant many descendants. Rather, it says "to his child"—and that, of course, means Christ.
This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise. For if the inheritance could be received by keeping the law, then it would not be the result of accepting God's promise. But God graciously gave it to Abraham as a promise. Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. Galatians 3:11-19

Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. Galatians 3:24&25

Fraction, where did you learn about the Law of Moses?

 

[Fraction]

I learned from the law mainly through the grape vine, but in the end I seen it as a list on sites and even in the bible in the old testament.

I am gaining understanding of your view now, and I see all the evidence that supports it.

I have the view of the bible that is simply this "In order for the end result and the prophesies to be met, this had to happen". With that view, I understand a little better.

The 10 Commandments protected us in body and spirit before Jesus came, and while the prophesies came in line. Without one event happening in the old testament, it would have made Jesus non effective. Understand? So it all was met before, while these laws held down the fort to an extent.

After Jesus, the way to salvation changed 100%. It was a different process that didnt require people to follow the old law word for word, or kill tiny baby sheep. (I believe that sheep are adorable)

With the change to Salvation also came a change to the law itself. God understood that everyone is a sinner and will remain in sin while on this earth. Saved by Grace seperates our hearts from our bodies and puts it in gods hands.

So what exactly is the purpose of the Ten Commandments now? Simply to tell us what sin is, it is no longer a requirement. Obeying the law won't get you into heaven, only faith will. Killing sheep won't get you into heaven, only faith will.

So in a way, our hearts matter above all else. Not actions or what we do in the body form outside of the Holy Spirit. Does the sinful natures actions still grieve god? Of course it does! However He loves the fact that we put faith in Him through Jesus Christ, that it outweighs sin

So in the end and the conclusion is pretty much this:
Salvation is through faith alone. Trust god and he will weed out what is needed to be weeded out. He will leave what should be left. Believing and offering complete control to him, and it will all be done by Him. We can't do it alone, we can do nothing of "importance" alone. The Ten Commandments was once needed, now it is only the past.

Trying to live by the Ten Commandments and being in complete faith in Jesus Christ and God won't keep you out of heaven imo. However it is a very dangerous path. (Guilt, Shame, and feeling like a failure)

So what is the conclusion of the conclusion?

Believe in Jesus Christ and God, let them do the work in you. Let go! Fall into their arms and everything else will fall into place after that.

This is what you're talking about, right? Kinda? Maybe?
Feel free to stab me if im still not getting it.

 

[jiggyfly]

I learned from the law mainly through the grape vine, but in the end I seen it as a list on sites and even in the bible in the old testament.

I am gaining understanding of your view now, and I see all the evidence that supports it.

I have the view of the bible that is simply this "In order for the end result and the prophesies to be met, this had to happen". With that view, I understand a little better.

The 10 Commandments protected us in body and spirit before Jesus came, and while the prophesies came in line. Without one event happening in the old testament, it would have made Jesus non effective. Understand? So it all was met before, while these laws held down the fort to an extent.

After Jesus, the way to salvation changed 100%. It was a different process that didnt require people to follow the old law word for word, or kill tiny baby sheep. (I believe that sheep are adorable)

With the change to Salvation also came a change to the law itself. God understood that everyone is a sinner and will remain in sin while on this earth. Saved by Grace seperates our hearts from our bodies and puts it in gods hands.

So what exactly is the purpose of the Ten Commandments now? Simply to tell us what sin is, it is no longer a requirement. Obeying the law won't get you into heaven, only faith will. Killing sheep won't get you into heaven, only faith will.

So in a way, our hearts matter above all else. Not actions or what we do in the body form outside of the Holy Spirit. Does the sinful natures actions still grieve god? Of course it does! However He loves the fact that we put faith in Him through Jesus Christ, that it outweighs sin

So in the end and the conclusion is pretty much this:
Salvation is through faith alone. Trust god and he will weed out what is needed to be weeded out. He will leave what should be left. Believing and offering complete control to him, and it will all be done by Him. We can't do it alone, we can do nothing of "importance" alone. The Ten Commandments was once needed, now it is only the past.

Trying to live by the Ten Commandments and being in complete faith in Jesus Christ and God won't keep you out of heaven imo. However it is a very dangerous path. (Guilt, Shame, and feeling like a failure)

So what is the conclusion of the conclusion?

Believe in Jesus Christ and God, let them do the work in you. Let go! Fall into their arms and everything else will fall into place after that.

This is what you're talking about, right? Kinda? Maybe?
Feel free to stab me if im still not getting it.

I think your getting it, yes trusting in Jesus is what makes us faultless.

 

[papajim]

Hello Fraction

Trying to keep the law is what we all try and do when we first become christians I know that I struggled with this as well, and with the same results as you, we try and fail, try and fail. The problem is we are not geared up that way so no matter how hard we try we will continue to fail.

The law has not been tossed out, it is how we know that sin still dwells in us as you have already expierenced and continue to expierence. I know that every other christian has and is also expierencing this same thing.

It is true that when we come to Jesus for the first time we come to Him as we are, aside from law. The thief on the cross is an example of this. He just asked Jesus to remember him and that he wanted to be with Him in His kingdom. Jesus said to him "I tell you today, you shall be with me in paradise." There was nothing that the thief did to earn salvation he just believed and asked.

This is the milk of the message, the thief had no time to grow up into Christ all he had was his request and the assurance of Jesus, but that is all he needed at that time. Salvation was promised to him inspite of his wicked past.

When we first come to Jesus we have that same assurance regardless of our past, regardless of law. Now Jesus does not leave us in the same condition as what He found us in. This is the purpose of the law, it helps us see ourselves as we truly are, constantly. Knowing who we are, we then constantly need a savior. The purpose of the law is so we can identify sin in ourselves, it is also how God judges righteousness the standard in wich we are judged. Christians knowing this still try and keep the law and continue to fail, as I said it is not in our DNA to obey.

In Pauls letter to the Romans he explained that we need to die to self so that Christ may live in us. This is the key to overcoming our sins, always keeping in mind our salvation is secure in Christ.

As I have said before disobeying the commandments is not the root of the problem it is how the problem manifests itself. What is in the mind is what comes through the flesh. Cause and effect. Our minds need to be changed that comes through a relationship with God in Christ. "By beholding we become changed." As in the first commandment of the ten, "That shalt have no other gods before me." This is key in overcoming. God has to be first in all things. We learn to live for Jesus, when He becomes our life our whole life, when we decide to let go of every thing that would keep us apart from Him, we will begin to have victory over sin. What we do as christians is we give in part and so we recieve in part.

Where you put your focus, is what you become. For instance if you love chocalate the more you think about it the more you want to eat it. Our natural bodies crave sin it is our nature. When we learn to live for Jesus and not self we die to our sinful nature and recieve the divine nature. This comes in a constant and a living relationship with Jesus.

When Jesus came He came in our sinful flesh, that is He took on our sinful nature and yet did not sin. How? He was in constant prayer, He said pray without ceasing. Our prayer lives are not what they should be. Comunication through prayer is our way of talking to God, it is also one way to build a relationship with Him. When you talked to God in prayer where is your focus? remember by beholding we become changed. God needs to be our constant focus and meditation.

Studying God's word is learning what God's will is for us. This is one way He communicates with us, through His written word. Again when we study God's word where is our focus?

One more way to overcome is to let go. Let go of everything that is in this world this is not your home heaven is your home. The things of this world strive to keep us apart from God. All of our investments should be for our heavenly home not for this world. Look at the world we live in, in all of it's wickedness. stress and death is this what we really want to invest in, or be apart from? Where you treasure is there your heart will be also. Again if Heaven is you home where is your focus?

This is how we build our faith and by faith we become the righteousness of the law.

 

[papajim]

Jiggyfly is right when he says "trusting in Jesus makes us faultless"

As our faith (trust) in Christ increases the sin in us decreases. When we come into the fullness of faith then the sin in us dies in full, and law has no more purpose. This is the gift that Jesus has given us, what is stopping us from recieving it in full, is our inability to trust Him completely. As our faith grows our ability to trust grows. All is a gift of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[jiggyfly]

The old way, [fn] with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses' face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. 2Cor 3:7

So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever!

Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down. Galatians 2:18

Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. Galatians 3:24&25

But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don't, the Advocate [fn] won't come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God's righteousness, and of the coming judgment. John 16:7&8

Fraction the law has indeed been set aside and been done away by God. We are in a new and different dispensation where HolySpirit guides, convicts, teaches, corrects and governs.

 

[papajim]

Fraction let me leave you with this as I am spent. I have tried to explain the gospel in everyway I can and yet it remains obscure in a play of words.

The law is like a roadmap it has no ability to take you where you want to go which is the righteousness of God. It does however point to the one that can take you there in the person of Jesus Christ.

Notice that in Rev.14:12 that the last generation of God's people on earth keep the commandments and have the faith of Jesus. Keeping the commandments of God is a faith issue. If you don't have the faith of Jesus then sin is still in you. How do you know that sin is still in you but by the law.

Jesus also said if you love me keep my commandments so now it also a matter of love. Faith that works by love. Compare the book of first John and compare with all that I have written as well as the book of Romans, Ephesians, Galations, actually all of the New Testament including the words of Jesus.

The Holy Spirit never conflicts with the law of God for both are spiritual, we are the ones that are carnal. If you still have sin in your life which I do (and there is not a person on this site can tell you that they have no more sin in there life) then that faith has not yet come. The law tells us that our relationship with Christ is not yet complete. If the law was done away with while we still have sin in us how would we know. If the Holy Spirit convicts you that there is sin in your life it is by the law that He teaches you. Now when that faith has come and there is no more sin in you then the law has no more use and is no longer needed. These are those in Rev. 14:12 God's final people that has completely overcome because they have the faith of Jesus and it was the faith of Jesus that kept Him from sin. Study the book of Galations with the book of First John.

Compare this with a religeon without law and see the confusion. We live in a world without law and it is nothing but kaos. Confusion is of Babylon the enemy of God. compare the 144,000 with those of Rev.17

One last thing, look at the life of Jesus, He took on our sinful flesh and without sin His mind which was that of God which came by faith had control over His body or the flesh. Look at this as an metaphor of the big picture. Using the illustration of Paul that the church is the body of Christ. Now Christ being the head, (or the mind) has control of the body (the church) whatever is in the mind controls the body so if the mind has no sin then the body also has no sin for the mind controls the body. Whatever the mind says the body does. These are those that follow the Lamb wherever He goes Rev14:4 the body natural follows the head or the mind for the mind controls the body.

This is not what we are not now but what we are to become for this will be the last generation of God's people on earth. The wicked without law will be completely under the mind of satan, while God's final people will be completely under the mind of God through Christ Jesus.

When the truth of the law and grace is understood then the truth of forgiveness is understood. The message I have had to share is a message of power showing what Jesus really did at the cross but at this site it is not excepted. Without understanding the true message we cannot understand everything that is built upon this truth.

If anything I have said to you makes sense send me a private message and I will continue to share with you and then compare with what is being taught by a few on this site.

Your brother in Christ papajim

 

[jiggyfly]

I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ. You are following a different way that pretends to be the Good News but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ.
Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.
Obviously, I’m not trying to win the approval of people, but of God. If pleasing people were my goal, I would not be Christ’s servant.
Gal 1:6-10 (NLT)

 

[papajim]

What makes you think I am turning from God, because I disagree with you?

The way I see your reasoning is that it is ok to worship everything before God, it is ok to bow down to them and serve them, it is ok take God's name in vein, it's ok to trample upon God's holy sabbath, it's ok dishonour your parents, it's ok to commit adultry, it's ok to kill, it's ok to steel, it's ok to lie, it's ok to covet. All these things are written in the law. But you say the law is done away with so all these thing no longer apply to any of God's people only to the world. Nonsense it is all nonsense.

If you now tell me that none of these things are allowed then you tell me that God's law does exist. If you tell me that any one of these laws isn't ok then you are still telling me that God's holy law exists.

You can't have it both ways which is it?

 

[TouchTestimony]

You have posted your opinion, you have done it in your way. However, not everyone will understand the way you have put it. I have read your "Mixing Grace With The Law" post. Which I'm sure is all the research I require on the subject. However I do not understand all of your opinion. I am a very open minded person, and I love gathering information and opinions. I just want to be able to take yours with 100% knowledge.

Don't talk to me like I have the knowledge you have, which is the tone I get from you. I obviously do not have the knowledge you have currently, I am a baby christian who is learning. I want to do this correctly, because with my faith I give respect as well. Take no offense, I mean none.

I am not asking your posts, I am asking you as brother to brother. A hungry christian to one with knowledge.

I simply believe that my mind/heart/spirit lives under the law of Christ, and my body lives under the law of sin. That in my spirit I am righteous, in my body I am corrupt. However, I still believe that doing some of the things mentioned in the old testament and in the ten commandments are sins. It is no longer I who do them, but my sinful nature that does. (As you can see, I'm focusing on Romans) This is my view. In my spirit I am no longer under the law of sin, but above it because my spirit imbued with the holy spirit is without a doubt righteous.

How do I know? How can I tell? Obviously sin is recognized through the law, so even you can agree that the law does exist. When we are saved, our hearts are removed from the law. We ourselves gain knowledge and are removed from the punishment of our sinful nature. This is done by Faith and directly followed by Grace. In my mind I clearly can see wrong now. I know how to avoid it. I understand that when my sinful nature completes it, that I need help.

The way I am receiving your opinion is when you're saved, there is no sin. The old commandments mean nothing, not even for knowledge. We shouldn't follow them. We shouldn't even care about them.

So it's kind of like saying, as long as we love everyone we can do whatever we want. So if I believe I love my girlfriend, I can lust and have sex with her? Is it justified? I know it won't remove my name from the book of life, but what would god think? If I lay with another man and perform lust with someone of the same sex, It's okay if I love them? So can I do all of that, and not ever have to confess them? All of that stuff is obviously okay and won't get me booted out of heaven or salvation, but is it now justified because the laws have been set aside, because the laws are not a requirement of salvation?

So explain in a simple way. Provide your scriptures, but explain them. I don't need to go here and there, I'm asking you. If you don't want to answer, that's okay. It's only a request.

that only seems logical

 

[papajim]

Jiggyfly, without law how do you and I even begin to concieve what sin is. We are carnal and in our carnal nature we can't understand sin there is no way with out a writtin law that we can even begin to comprehend what sin is. Even with the written law we still don't understand it. We don't see or understand the depth of sin and it's wickedness. Without the law how would you even know that sin existed, by what guideline would you use to understand it. God's law was a gift not a curse disobeying was the curse. So terrible was sin which was taught by the law that God sent His only son to take our place to die. So terrible was sin that it caused the very son of the living God to be crucified. Do you really comprehend that?

We are blind to our condition we are blind to the horror of sin. if we were not blind to it we would have nothing to do with it. Without the law how would we even begin to understand?

The law was and is from God, it is a teacher to teach sin and to tell us our condition along with the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin through the law. The cross tells us of the horror of sin and to the extremes that God went through to destroy it through the death of His own son. Through the law comes the knowledge of sin. What else do we have to compare sin with, what else makes sin known to us.

You say the Holy Spirit teaches us what sin is, by what method does He use? And without law how do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not the great deciever?



Please reason out these things in you head. Don't believe something simply because somebody told you. There is plenty of evidence in the old and new testemant of the law and it's purpose. Please don't close your eyes to it!

We are caught up in a war between Christ and Satan. Jesus is about to return. Choose whom will you will serve, obedience unto eternal life through faith in the living God or disobedience unto eternal death?

 

[jiggyfly]

Jiggyfly, without law how do you and I even begin to concieve what sin is. We are carnal and in our carnal nature we can't understand sin there is no way with out a writtin law that we can even begin to comprehend what sin is. Even with the written law we still don't understand it. We don't see or understand the depth of sin and it's wickedness. Without the law how would you even know that sin existed, by what guideline would you use to understand it. God's law was a gift not a curse disobeying was the curse. So terrible was sin which was taught by the law that God sent His only son to take our place to die. So terrible was sin that it caused the very son of the living God to be crucified. Do you really comprehend that?

We are blind to our condition we are blind to the horror of sin. if we were not blind to it we would have nothing to do with it. Without the law how would we even begin to understand?

The law was and is from God, it is a teacher to teach sin and to tell us our condition along with the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin through the law. The cross tells us of the horror of sin and to the extremes that God went through to destroy it through the death of His own son. Through the law comes the knowledge of sin. What else do we have to compare sin with, what else makes sin known to us.

You say the Holy Spirit teaches us what sin is, by what method does He use? And without law how do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not the great deciever?



Please reason out these things in you head. Don't believe something simply because somebody told you. There is plenty of evidence in the old and new testemant of the law and it's purpose. Please don't close your eyes to it!

We are caught up in a war between Christ and Satan. Jesus is about to return. Choose whom will you will serve, obedience unto eternal life through faith in the living God or disobedience unto eternal death?

Please understand this PJim, you can not teach me something that you do not understand or at best misunderstand. You seem to think that you have knowledge concerning the law, old covenant and new covenant, yet your posts deny or ignore Paul's very clear statements about God setting aside the old covenant which contains the law.

Maybe you are still carnal but I have matured spiritually and know better.

You fail to understand that HolySpirit is our guide now. David777 tried to help you understand this truth yet you continue to deny it. If you want to hold to your religious paradigm that's up to you but refrain from trying to get others drawn into this bondage.

Your posts make it clear that the law is your teacher which explains much of your struggle to understand.

Paul said;
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14

Start looking and listening to HolySpirit and your thinking will change and your struggle to understand will cease. Promise.:wink:

 

[papajim]

Did you not understand one word I said in the previous post?

If you agree in any one point that we are not to do those things then you agree with the law.

 

[jiggyfly]

I believe that you and I are done with this discussion Jim. I hope God blesses you with some spiritual understanding.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Homosexuality is dealt with by the Jerusalem Council in the book of acts. It is sexual immorality.

Your statement that the law is spread through Paul's letters is not true. Sure it is dealt with in Romans, but Paul is directly addressing Jews in this Roman Church. In fact the subject of the letter to the Romans is Law and Grace. Paul knew the Jews resident in Rome would
tear the Church apart, as they did in the Galation Church. It is in chapter two that Paul begins the demolition of the Jewish belief in the law and sacrifice for justification.

I will repeat myself, we are in Christ, this is spiritual, we are not Jewish, we do not have to conduct sacrifices. We have no earthly temple, no priestly class, etc. You are still viewing Christ in the flesh and not in the spirit.

Law is useless in defense against sin, either as a non Christian or as a Christian. Surely you realise this Christforever. This Mosaic Law is so limited in defining sin. We have no self righteousness in Christ or out of Christ.

David777
“Sexual immorality” and what defines it by its very definition is a “law”. Attempting to define “Sexual immorality” without referencing to Gods law can only provide the opening for cultures of the world to set the standard of what is considered sexually immoral. Should the church allow this? I don’t know about Australia, but it’s happening here in the USA even as we speak and it doesn’t even come close to a standard any Christian should follow much less find acceptable. If in walking and living in the spirit with no knowledge of the law, how does one state to someone who professes to be a believer that they are doing wrong and by what standard does one use to determine this?

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Trespass would require some establishment of behavior that goes contrary not to cultural mores but to a law that is recognized by the church. By our very nature, we are capable of sin, so must be ready to repent should we do so. If we have no understanding of the law of God which by its very basis identifies sin, of what would we repent? You stated that “Law is useless in defense against sin, either as a non Christian or as a Christian” neither does ignorance of the law preclude one from sinning.

As a Christian I’m not of the world but I’m still in it. So, having knowledge of the Ten Commandments (The question of this post “Ten Commandments helpful?) becomes necessary not for purposes of salvation, nor of righteousness but as a perfect standard of behavior, which we will never achieve in this life due to the corrupted flesh we reside in. Walking and living in the spirit within the corrupted flesh is a must, but saying it so doesn’t make it a reality by negating the existence of the law. Now, man was made of flesh & spirit and as Christians, we reside in corrupted flesh and yet we are made perfect in the spirit through Christ Jesus. I am sure we will agree to disagree, but it’s not bondage, that I suggest, but a true freedom, in the knowledge that all my wiles are useless when it comes to the law and only due to not my own spirit, but the Holy Spirit that would make it possible for me to walk in the spirit. By His grace one day those who call Jesus Savior, will know what it means to be both perfect in flesh & spirit as He was and is. To be honest I do so long for the day that both body & spirit are made perfect!

Now, on to the statement you made on me in regards to Paul’s’ letters. I won’t argue with you on Paul’s letters mentioning the law, you feel that they don’t I believe they do. Remember I was just responding to your statement that “Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles hence mention of the Law is almost non-existant in his letters.” Your own next statement does more to affirm what I stated than your own previous statement to the contrary. However, by responding as you did to me above by stating that I was lying which is how I take the statement of “is not true” as an insult to me especially in the light of your statement which reads “letter to the Romans is Law and Grace”.

I would not disregard honest inquiries into learning more about God’s Word, but I would also not cast aside one who does not agree with me either, which sadly I’ve noticed all too frequently here. You are not counted as one of these my brother. Even in the Council of Jerusalem not all agreed, but a consensus probably similar to the choosing of Judas’ replacement was done. I’m sure those saints that did not agree were not “kicked to the curb” so to speak. The curb reference is just a colloquialism from my youth, standing for being cast aside.

Love you brother, keep the faith, and my prayers that you may always walk & live in the spirit! Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia!

 

[Konquistador]

I don't actually think about the 10 commandments very much. I accept what Jesus said is the summary of His teachings and about all of scriptures, the "Great Commandments" -- Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. Logically, this covers the 10 Commandments and then some. Wesley, ever the practical person, summarized it as Love God, do no harm, and do good. I try not to weasel out of things by looking for technicalities of various "rules", but look at what's in my heart. St. Paul says essentially the same thing over and over.

 

[David777]

Hello.

Dear ChristForEver, most certainly we have a difference of opinion.

You stated that,

"Now, on to the statement you made on me in regards to Paul’s’ letters. I won’t argue with you on Paul’s letters mentioning the law, you feel that they don’t I believe they do."

If you could quote some verses from Paul's letters other than Romans, i would be grateful. It is not argument only clarification ChristForEver.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Forgive me dear brother if I only provide book, chapter, and verse. Dealing with the subject may start prior to the mentioning verse or continue after, but you get the idea. In truth it would only make sense that Paul had to address the law, since even though considered the Apostle to the Gentiles, he would always present his case to the Jew first wherever he went.

1 Cor 7:39
1 Cor 9
1 Cor 14:21
1 Cor 15:56
Galatians Chapters 2 – 5
Galatians 6:13
Phil 3
1 Tim 1:8 -9
Hebrews Chapters 7 - 10

Titus 3:9 I particularly feel this is appropriate to all of us considering our postings.

Once again, I apologize for not providing greater detail at this time. The pain meds I’m taking at the moment are leaving me a bit groggy and I didn’t want to delay my response to you. YBIC

 

[Konquistador]

Romans: It is divided into 3 parts. The first part is to the Gentiles, and specifically addresses their background, and some of the things that they still do, such as participate in pagan temple rites. This is the famous "doing what is unnatural" verses, and it is talking about participating in the pagan sexual "orgies" to honor pagan gods and ensure fertility of the land, etc. (Those verses have zero to do with homosexuality, only with pagan ceremonies, about people turning away from their natural inclinations just to honor a false nonexistent god.)

The 2nd section of Romans is addressed to the Jews, and their quoting of specific laws and sections of the Bible (OT, obviously) and telling other people what will happen to them if they don't follow the laws and customs of the Jews. (Sound familiar in these forums???)

The last section of Romans says both the Gentiles and Jews are mistaken about what Christianity is about. It is about loving God, not false gods or the law. It is about loving your neighbor and doing everything possible, out of love for God and love for neighbor, especially for those who don't seem to have a clue about how to improve their lives. We must not argue amongst our fellow Christians about irrelevant old ways of thinking and believing, Christ demands a new way of looking at things and new ways of behaving.

I see exactly the same things in these forums as what Paul chided both the Gentiles and Jews about. Ignoring Jesus's points, and engaging in self-serving rhetoric and looking for "rules" to follow and ways to judge others. Instead of reading Romans (or any other book of the Bible) to confirm our preconceived notions, we must try to understand what it is actually saying, with a blank slate without our preconceived beliefs.

 

[TouchTestimony]

I believe that you and I are done with this discussion Jim. I hope God blesses you with some spiritual understanding.

ha, about time too