The Trinity

[Bill]

To me the trinity is like a candle. The candle has three parts: the wax, the fire, the wick.

I think about the wax like it was Jesus, as we see the candle of the beauty of the candle what it's made of How It's formed. It's like looking at the life of Jesus.

The fire, like the Holy Spirit draws us to Jesus. So if you see a candle burning at a distance and you come to look at it then you see the beauty of the candle itself. Maybe smell the aroma of the wax. It's the way of the Holy Spirit that draws us to Jesus.

The wick I look at as God the Father. Because when we know of God the father is just a little peace just a little bit.

As the wax Burns only a little bit of the wick is revealed. And as Jesus says you have to go through him to get to the Father who is in heaven.
---------------
The mystery of God is very unique. The Trinity that is One God United, has three entities that are all individuals. God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit.

They are not equal. God the Father is hidden and is only revealed by the Son, Jesus. Jesus often says things like only the Father knows. And it's written in Scripture that the father created everything for his Son Jesus. The mention of the Holy Spirit comes from Jesus saying I will send the Paraclete.

And we experience the Holy Spirit who comes down on the apostles with tongues of flame. And they are filled with the Anointing of the Holy Spirit.

I'm bringing the subject up because of a couple of our members who do not believe in the Trinity. And think of it as a diabolical scheme, I think that was their words.

Let us have a civil discussion, without name calling. And let us try to understand why or why not to believe in the Trinity

 

[Samson2020]

They are not equal

Isn't this the actual basis of the Trinity doctrine? Co-equal and Co-eternal?
And if you do not believe that then why are you defending it?

Samson2020​

Add bookmark 3 minutes ago #93

I guess I can't understand that thinking of no Trinity.

It's just that the way it is presented as Co-eternal, co-equal persons.
If the Son is equal to the Father then why did He say that the Father is GREATER than I? John 14:28
If the Son was co-eternal then why was it necessary for the Father to give life to the Son to have within Himself? John 5:26

The progression of life giving is presented in John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given unto us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
The same life Jesus received from His Father to give to us. If Jesus needed to receive it to be able to give it then He wasn't God to begin with, but was as
the Bible states a MAN just like us who became a life giving spirit.

 

[Bill]

Samson2020

New Add bookmark 1 minute ago #93

Bill said:

I guess I can't understand that thinking of no Trinity.

Samson2020 said:

"It's just that the way it is presented as Co-eternal, co-equal persons.
If the Son is equal to the Father then why did He say that the Father is GREATER than I? John 14:28
If the Son was co-eternal then why was it necessary for the Father to give life to the Son to have within Himself? John 5:26

The progression of life giving is presented in John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given unto us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
The same life Jesus received from His Father to give to us. If Jesus needed to receive it to be able to give it then He wasn't God to begin with, but was as
the Bible states a MAN just like us who became a life giving spirit."

You are right, they can not be equal, unless they are as One

 

[Bill]

Isn't this the actual basis of the Trinity doctrine? Co-equal and Co-eternal?
And if you do not believe that then why are you defending it?

Samson2020​

Add bookmark 3 minutes ago #93




It's just that the way it is presented as Co-eternal, co-equal persons.
If the Son is equal to the Father then why did He say that the Father is GREATER than I? John 14:28
If the Son was co-eternal then why was it necessary for the Father to give life to the Son to have within Himself? John 5:26

The progression of life giving is presented in John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given unto us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
The same life Jesus received from His Father to give to us. If Jesus needed to receive it to be able to give it then He wasn't God to begin with, but was as
the Bible states a MAN just like us who became a life giving spirit.

I have to use a little bit of my own experience. Although my own experience is difficult for many here to accept.

I do a lot of spiritual work for the Lord. That is out of the body type experiences. It's all has to do with spiritual warfare

But 99% of my conversation with God is with God the Father.
I have very little to do with Jesus directly, but Jesus is also very important in my life. And the Holy Spirit is always with me. It's the only way I can explain it

I posted a little too quickly. But I wanted to talk about a couple experiences I've had. In a large spiritual battle that was going on, at one point the trinity spoke as one. And it was like a booming thunderous type power. Something I'd never heard before.

I know the voices of God the father when he speaks to me, I know the voice of Jesus's son when he talks. And I know the movement of the Holy Spirit. But when the Trinity spoke as one it was completely different than all three.

 

[Bill]

I know that the mystery of God is definitely a mystery.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brother @Bill
I think the problem is that people have difficulty in believing that the 3 persons of the Trinity can be in agreement all the time! They cannot understand how they can be co-equal, co-eternal. I would think that Paul discription was the best to come to understand that it was so. At least as it pertains to God the Son Jesus.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men. Philippians 2:5-7

They also have problems seeing that with this agreement that there is still a hierarchy of God which makes as you have said it the easiest way of understanding the Trinity, which is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

The only question I have ever had and have not heard a valid explanation of is when Jesus said in John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

I just have not understood the why of this considering that the Holy Spirit in part was given, if temporary, to those in the OT, and the Apostles in the NT.

My hope in this thread is with you in that respondents will be civil in their communications. Words such as lies, of the devil, and like comments do nothing to further any discussions, much less this one. One can agree to disagree without being derogatory in the words chosen to describe their disagreement.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Bill]

Dear Brother @Bill
I think the problem is that people have difficulty in believing that the 3 persons of the Trinity can be in agreement all the time! They cannot understand how they can be co-equal, co-eternal. I would think that Paul discription was the best to come to understand that it was so. At least as it pertains to God the Son Jesus.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men. Philippians 2:5-7

They also have problems seeing that with this agreement that there is still a hierarchy of God which makes as you have said it the easiest way of understanding the Trinity, which is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

The only question I have ever had and have not heard a valid explanation of is when Jesus said in John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

I just have not understood the why of this considering that the Holy Spirit in part was given, if temporary, to those in the OT, and the Apostles in the NT.

My hope in this thread is with you in that respondents will be civil in their communications. Words such as lies, of the devil, and like comments do nothing to further any discussions, much less this one. One can agree to disagree without being derogatory in the words chosen to describe their disagreement.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

"I just have not understood the why of this considering that the Holy Spirit in part was given, if temporary, to those in the OT, and the Apostles in the NT."

This is something that is very very important in my opinion. That indeed, the Holy Spirit was given temporarily to some in the Old Testament and then permanently to those as the apostles in the New Testament.

I know there is some disagreement to this very thing about those in the Old Testament receiving the Holy Spirit. But there's no doubt of it because of the Gifts that were given. Elijah, Moses and others, whew. Powerful!!!

 

[Bill]

Dear Brother @Bill
I think the problem is that people have difficulty in believing that the 3 persons of the Trinity can be in agreement all the time! They cannot understand how they can be co-equal, co-eternal. I would think that Paul discription was the best to come to understand that it was so. At least as it pertains to God the Son Jesus.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men. Philippians 2:5-7

They also have problems seeing that with this agreement that there is still a hierarchy of God which makes as you have said it the easiest way of understanding the Trinity, which is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

The only question I have ever had and have not heard a valid explanation of is when Jesus said in John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

I just have not understood the why of this considering that the Holy Spirit in part was given, if temporary, to those in the OT, and the Apostles in the NT.

My hope in this thread is with you in that respondents will be civil in their communications. Words such as lies, of the devil, and like comments do nothing to further any discussions, much less this one. One can agree to disagree without being derogatory in the words chosen to describe their disagreement.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you."

Certainly that is a good question and a mystery. I don't understand that statement either, it's just something I accept.

 

[Bill]

Maybe the co-equal is in the authority of God. Not so much the hierarchy.

Sort of like, the authority of parents to a child in a Christian household. Both parents would be in agreement, yet the husband is still the "father".

 

[Christ4Ever]

"I just have not understood the why of this considering that the Holy Spirit in part was given, if temporary, to those in the OT, and the Apostles in the NT."

This is something that is very very important in my opinion. That indeed, the Holy Spirit was given temporarily to some in the Old Testament and then permanently to those as the apostles in the New Testament.

I know there is some disagreement to this very thing about those in the Old Testament receiving the Holy Spirit. But there's no doubt of it because of the Gifts that were given. Elijah, Moses and others, whew. Powerful!!!

Dear Brother Bill,
I appreciate your response, but I believe you misconstrued my curiosity and lack of understanding. It had to do with the verse I quoted, and the underlined text, in why it had to be so!
Not that the Holy Spirit was given in cases to certain OT personages or prior to our Lord's Ascension to the Apostles, which I too believe is truth. It had to do with why the Holy Spirit could not come to be with the Apostles until Jesus ascended.

Thank-you for your reply brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. I am a little slow in the answering/reading! lol I do believe you answered this in a later post! Thank-you again! \o/

 

[Christ4Ever]

Maybe the co-equal is in the authority of God. Not so much the hierarchy.

Sort of like, the authority of parents to a child in a Christian household. Both parents would be in agreement, yet the husband is still the "father".

Exactly! Good example!

If you don't mind, I will start using your example in place of hierarchy!
...and Husband & Wife are still one!

 

[Bill]

I prayed on this subject last night, and this was what the Lord said in my heart.

"God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all co-equal in both authority and power.

It is in the Humility of Jesus, setting the example for all to follow, that exalts the Father."

As the example of the equality. Jesus states that we must go through Him to reach the Father. This command, although shared to us during the lifetime of Jesus on Earth, is an eternal command.

We have to then look at figures like Enoch and Elijah, how was it possible for them to enter heaven if they never " knew " Jesus.

It is because The Father and Jesus are One. And they both had God in thier hearts.

What part of God is not God!

 

[Bill]

Exactly! Good example!

If you don't mind, I will start using your example in place of hierarchy!
...and Husband & Wife are still one!

I know after posting the husband and wife idea, i felt i needed to pray about it.

 

[Twistie]

To me the trinity is like a candle. The candle has three parts: the wax, the fire, the wick.

I think about the wax like it was Jesus, as we see the candle of the beauty of the candle what it's made of How It's formed. It's like looking at the life of Jesus.

The fire, like the Holy Spirit draws us to Jesus. So if you see a candle burning at a distance and you come to look at it then you see the beauty of the candle itself. Maybe smell the aroma of the wax. It's the way of the Holy Spirit that draws us to Jesus.

The wick I look at as God the Father. Because when we know of God the father is just a little peace just a little bit.

As the wax Burns only a little bit of the wick is revealed. And as Jesus says you have to go through him to get to the Father who is in heaven.
---------------
The mystery of God is very unique. The Trinity that is One God United, has three entities that are all individuals. God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit.

They are not equal. God the Father is hidden and is only revealed by the Son, Jesus. Jesus often says things like only the Father knows. And it's written in Scripture that the father created everything for his Son Jesus. The mention of the Holy Spirit comes from Jesus saying I will send the Paraclete.

And we experience the Holy Spirit who comes down on the apostles with tongues of flame. And they are filled with the Anointing of the Holy Spirit.

I'm bringing the subject up because of a couple of our members who do not believe in the Trinity. And think of it as a diabolical scheme, I think that was their words.

Let us have a civil discussion, without name calling. And let us try to understand why or why not to believe in the Trinity

That's just real beautiful...

Thanks

 

[Twistie]

Dear Brother @Bill
I think the problem is that people have difficulty in believing that the 3 persons of the Trinity can be in agreement all the time! They cannot understand how they can be co-equal, co-eternal. I would think that Paul discription was the best to come to understand that it was so. At least as it pertains to God the Son Jesus.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men. Philippians 2:5-7

They also have problems seeing that with this agreement that there is still a hierarchy of God which makes as you have said it the easiest way of understanding the Trinity, which is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

The only question I have ever had and have not heard a valid explanation of is when Jesus said in John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

I just have not understood the why of this considering that the Holy Spirit in part was given, if temporary, to those in the OT, and the Apostles in the NT.

My hope in this thread is with you in that respondents will be civil in their communications. Words such as lies, of the devil, and like comments do nothing to further any discussions, much less this one. One can agree to disagree without being derogatory in the words chosen to describe their disagreement.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

The only question I have ever had and have not heard a valid explanation of is when Jesus said in John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

Immanuel...
The Lord spake also unto me again, saying,

6 Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;

7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:

8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

9 Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.

10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.

 

[lentz]

The only question I have ever had and have not heard a valid explanation of is when Jesus said in John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

Immanuel...
The Lord spake also unto me again, saying,

6 Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;

7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:

8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

9 Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.

10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.

When the comforter came,Christ could be everywhere all over the world at the same time because he is Spirit.
Christ while in the flesh was limited to whatever area he was in.

 

[B-A-C]

Isn't this the actual basis of the Trinity doctrine? Co-equal and Co-eternal?

Eternal yes. Equal, not always. There is a hierarchy even in the Godhead.

John 5:19; Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

 

[Samson2020]

Eternal yes. Equal, not always. There is a hierarchy even in the Godhead.

John 5:19; Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

It’s refreshing to finally see that some are admitting their is not a true equality factor involved.
My issue with Trinity is and will remain both co equal and co eternal.
Jesus is now co eternal as He was given life to have within himself to pass along to his brethren. Implying even He did not possess that quality prior to that life being given Him.
Co equal, we’ll the husband wife issue at least attempts to clarify the relationship but it is actually father and son where never is it mentioned that those two become one except in spirit. And as we are to become one with them both are we then part of the Godhead as sons?
Only when we are perfected which has been my position all along as in the end God is all in all.
To me Trinity fails in understanding what Jesus was and what Jesus became. As a man that became part of the godhead by being glorified into that position, it becomes possible for you and I to have faith in God bringing us into the same relationship with them.
On the other hand if Jesus were co eternal always then your chance of ever attaining to that height will never be available.
IMO the becoming part of the Godhead in the end is the message of the kingdom. Otherwise he wouldn’t say follow me and I will prepare a place for you so that where I am you may be also. This doesn’t just speak to heavenly locations but
Sonship and brotherhood on the highest possible level imaginable which is ALL the fullness of God residing in you, and if so then equal with God just as Jesus was but still a servant in the kingdom as a son.
He thought it not robbery to be equal with God and we should not either if it is given to us to exist in that capacity as it was Him.
The Kingdom of God is sonship in the highest sense.

Nice to see clearer discussion among grown ups!

 

[Bill]

It’s refreshing to finally see that some are admitting their is not a true equality factor involved.
My issue with Trinity is and will remain both co equal and co eternal.
Jesus is now co eternal as He was given life to have within himself to pass along to his brethren. Implying even He did not possess that quality prior to that life being given Him.
Co equal, we’ll the husband wife issue at least attempts to clarify the relationship but it is actually father and son where never is it mentioned that those two become one except in spirit. And as we are to become one with them both are we then part of the Godhead as sons?
Only when we are perfected which has been my position all along as in the end God is all in all.
To me Trinity fails in understanding what Jesus was and what Jesus became. As a man that became part of the godhead by being glorified into that position, it becomes possible for you and I to have faith in God bringing us into the same relationship with them.
On the other hand if Jesus were co eternal always then your chance of ever attaining to that height will never be available.
IMO the becoming part of the Godhead in the end is the message of the kingdom. Otherwise he wouldn’t say follow me and I will prepare a place for you so that where I am you may be also. This doesn’t just speak to heavenly locations but
Sonship and brotherhood on the highest possible level imaginable which is ALL the fullness of God residing in you, and if so then equal with God just as Jesus was but still a servant in the kingdom as a son.
He thought it not robbery to be equal with God and we should not either if it is given to us to exist in that capacity as it was Him.
The Kingdom of God is sonship in the highest sense.

Nice to see clearer discussion among grown ups!

The Lord did remind me, God is a mystery, Not all that we understand of God is logical

 

[Samson2020]

The Lord did remind me, God is a mystery, Not all that we understand of God is logical

Indeed, when did FAITH become a logical thing?