Things that people mistake as being in the Bible

[Butch5]

Satan and the demons - "shedim" in the OT, "dainonia" in the NT, are those spiritual beings. They rule the nations only because God gave the nations to them. They have no power or authority of their own, it was GIVEN to them for God's purposes.

I don't see it my friend. I believe they obtained the nations through Adam's disobedience.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I don't see it my friend. I believe they obtained the nations through Adam's disobedience.

There was no "they". Since Adam, there was no government, laws or territories, all were one nation, until God broke them apart INTO 70 nations and set boundaries. God gave them up to false gods because they wanted to worship false gods rather than the true God. Tower of Babel, in essence, is another Fall of humanity after the Great Flood reset.

 

[Butch5]

There was no "they". Since Adam, there was no government, laws or territories, all were one nation, until God broke them apart INTO 70 nations and set boundaries. God gave them up to false gods because they wanted to worship false gods rather than the true God. Tower of Babel, in essence, is another Fall of humanity after the Great Flood reset.

The "they" I was referring to is the "spirits" you're referring to.

Let me ask you a question. Since you believe these spirits are the "sons of God". How is it that the fallen angels or demons are the "sons of God"?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The "they" I was referring to is the "spirits" you're referring to.

Let me ask you a question. Since you believe these spirits are the "sons of God". How is it that the fallen angels or demons are the "sons of God"?

Because that's the only foregone conclusion based on Job 1:6 and Ps. 82:6, where they get to present themselves before God, and God will judge them harshly. The term "Nephilim" in hebrew means "fallen ones", it was translated into "giants" based on the context of the 12 spies' report.

 

[Butch5]

Because that's the only foregone conclusion based on Job 1:6 and Ps. 82:6, where they get to present themselves before God, and God will judge them harshly. The term "Nephilim" in hebrew means "fallen ones", it was translated into "giants" based on the context of the 12 spies' report.

Why is that the only conclusion? Have you considered all possible conclusions? What in Job 1:6 says that the sons of God are demons, or even spiritual beings for that matter? I have the same question regarding Psalm 82:6

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Why is that the only conclusion? Have you considered all possible conclusions? What in Job 1:6 says that the sons of God are demons, or even spiritual beings for that matter? I have the same question regarding Psalm 82:6

"Seek, and you shall find." I sought, and I found answers from the Unseen Realm by late Dr. Michael Heiser and Return of the Gods by Rabbi Jonathan Cahn. "Sons" in the term "sons of God" simple indicates the nature or essence, which means, they were created as eternal, immortal, spiritual beings like God himself, but eventually, they will be cast into the abyss for their rebellion, and they'll be replaced by us, the adopted sons of God, seeds of Abraham.

 

[Butch5]

"Seek, and you shall find." I sought, and I found answers from the Unseen Realm by late Dr. Michael Heiser and Return of the Gods by Rabbi Jonathan Cahn. "Sons" in the term "sons of God" simple indicates the nature or essence, which means, they were created as eternal, immortal, spiritual beings like God himself, but eventually, they will be cast into the abyss for their rebellion, and they'll be replaced by us, the adopted sons of God, seeds of Abraham.

I have more to say on this. However, the Scriptures are clear that the Father "alone" has immortality. Thus there are no eternal, immortal, beings of than the Father.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, ythe King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, adwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be dhonour and power everlasting. Amen.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Ti 6:14–16.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I have more to say on this. However, the Scriptures are clear that the Father "alone" has immortality. Thus there are no eternal, immortal, beings of than the Father.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, ythe King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, adwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be dhonour and power everlasting. Amen.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Ti 6:14–16.

Their "death" is the second death, it's not mortal death, but suffering in the Lake of Fire for eternity. At that point, Death itself as the last enemy is defeated. When I said that they were immortal and eternal spiritual beings, that was just the original design - they were created as deities by the Most High, which is what Ps. 82:6 means. HOWEVER, in Ps. 82:7, they will be judged and terminated.

 

[Br. Bear]

@Jonathan_Gale

Greetings,

"Seek, and you shall find." I sought, and I found answers from the Unseen Realm by late Dr. Michael Heiser and Return of the Gods by Rabbi Jonathan Cahn. "Sons" in the term "sons of God" simple indicates the nature or essence, which means, they were created as eternal, immortal, spiritual beings like God himself, but eventually, they will be cast into the abyss for their rebellion, and they'll be replaced by us, the adopted sons of God, seeds of Abraham.

there seems to be quite a lot in your post, information wise, that is not clearly outlined in Scripture.
To accept all you state, one must swallow it whole and ask no questions. That is not really good practice when looking at Doctrine.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

@Jonathan_Gale

Greetings,



there seems to be quite a lot in your post, information wise, that is not clearly outlined in Scripture.
To accept all you state, one must swallow it whole and ask no questions. That is not really good practice when looking at Doctrine.


Bless you ....><>

Believe me, I did ask, and I received. This is a basic worldview of the bible writers, a supernatual one that can't be explained through scientism - not science, scienTISM. That's a particular stumbling block that Paul warned about, that the gospel is foolish to the Greeks who take pride of their own intelligence. When you read through this worldview, all the passages with supernatural elements will make sense.

 

[Br. Bear]

Believe me, I did ask, and I received. This is a basic worldview of the bible writers, a supernatual one that can't be explained through scientism - not science, scienTISM. That's a particular stumbling block that Paul warned about, that the gospel is foolish to the Greeks who take pride of their own intelligence. When you read through this worldview, all the passages with supernatural elements will make sense.

thank you for replying

that theory can be applied by any and all who so choose to apply it and the reasoning to why they both believe and promote or proclaim what they do.


Bless you @Jonathan_Gale ....><>

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

thank you for replying

that theory can be applied by any and all who so choose to apply it and the reasoning to why they both believe and promote or proclaim what they do.


Bless you @Jonathan_Gale ....><>

Look, I didn't make up a set of new doctrines from one particular interpretation of Deut. 32-8-9 and apply it on the whole bible; on the contrary, there is a consistent narrative throughout the bible, and Deut. 32-8-9 is just a key passage that sums it up. It's not a "theory".

These days even a lot of supposed "secular" speakers and influencers have come to realize the work of these evil, spiritual beings who are behind all the doom and gloom, they see false gods and false religions rising and they call them out, they understand that politics is downstream of culture, and culture is downstream of religion, so why are we being so ignorant at this when we're the ones who should have a unique spiritual perspective? Why am I being sunday schooled by Charlie Kirk, Michael Knowles, even Tim Pool sometimes instead of my pastor and my peers at the church?

 

[Psalm59]

Gentle Jesus, meek and mild.

To err is human, to forgive, divine

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Why is that the only conclusion? Have you considered all possible conclusions? What in Job 1:6 says that the sons of God are demons, or even spiritual beings for that matter? I have the same question regarding Psalm 82:6

To answer your question, Job 1:6 says they were with Satan. Who else got to challenge the Almighty God? They were not some human authority figure who went to threaten or tempt Job, they came to God, in His presence, in His heavenly court, even though they were "roaming on the earth". Who else could they be other than demons?

Then you go to Ps. 82:6-8, judgement was declared, they will die LIKE MORTAL MEN. Now that obviously indicate that their immortality was stripped away, they were degraded from somewhere superior to a mortal level, and their fate was sealed. If they were mortal men to began with, why would that be a punishment? Wouldn't they die in one way or another? In this passage, God was crashing their ego. These sons of God thought they had the privelege, they were elohim/deities, they thought they could challenge God, but ironically, soon they would die just like those mortal men whom they looked down upon.

 

[Butch5]

To answer your question, Job 1:6 says they were with Satan. Who else got to challenge the Almighty God? They were not some human authority figure who went to threaten or tempt Job, they came to God, in His presence, in His heavenly court, even though they were "roaming on the earth". Who else could they be other than demons?

Then you go to Ps. 82:6-8, judgement was declared, they will die LIKE MORTAL MEN. Now that obviously indicate that their immortality was stripped away, they were degraded from somewhere superior to a mortal level, and their fate was sealed. If they were mortal men to began with, why would that be a punishment? Wouldn't they die in one way or another? In this passage, God was crashing their ego. These sons of God thought they had the privelege, they were elohim/deities, they thought they could challenge God, but ironically, soon they would die just like those mortal men whom they looked down upon.

I'll address this issue more shortly. However, everything you've said here is an "inference". My friend, I again encourage you to put away the NLT. I looked at the Greek and the Hebrew and neither say, "LIKE MORTAL MEN". They both say "Like men". This is a good example of translator bias. The translator(s) thinks this passage is about spiritual beings so he/they adds the word "mortal". By doing this he/they cooks his/their own bias into the translation and misleads the reader. There's nothing in the passage that says they are spiritual beings. If we look at the context, we find the Psalm asking, how long will they judge unjustly and accept the wicked? They are told to defend the poor and the fatherless. Are we to suppose that the demons will judge justly? Are we to suppose that demons will defend the poor and fatherless? Are we to suppose that the demons are going to do justice to the afflicted and needy? Are we to suppose the demons are going to deliver the poor and needy? Surely, these are men.

At the end of the Psalm we see a call for God to judge the earth, for he will inherit the nations. If this passage is talking about demons why is God called to judge the nations. Shouldn't the call have been to judge the angels of the demons? We don't have to guess. If we read on we see who these enemies of God are. He says the enemies of God have set themselves against His people. Then he goes on to list the nations that he's talking about.

"The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites;
Of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek;
The Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 tAssur also is joined with them:"

The context of this whole passage is about men. In verse 6 he says, you are gods and the children of the Most High. In context it's clear that these sons of God are men.



1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty;
He judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly,
And gaccept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless:
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy:
Rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand;
They walk on in darkness:
All the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods;
And all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth:
For thou shalt inherit all nations.


Psalm 83

A Song or Psalm of Asaph.

1 Keep not thou silence, O God:
Hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult:
And they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people,
And consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation;
That the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent:
They are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites;
Of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 sGebal, and Ammon, and Amalek;
The Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 tAssur also is joined with them:
They have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.

9 Do unto them as unto the Midianites;
As to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison:
10 Which perished at En-dor:
They became as dung for the earth.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb:
Yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna:
12 Who said, Let us take to ourselves
The houses of God in possession.
13 O my God, make them like a wheel;
As the stubble pbefore the wind.
14 As the fire burneth a wood,
And as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
15 So persecute them with thy tempest,
And make them afraid with thy pstorm.
16 Fill their faces with shame;
That they may seek thy name, O LORD.
17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever;
Yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH,
Art the most high over all the earth.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 82:1–83:18.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I'll address this issue more shortly. However, everything you've said here is an "inference". My friend, I again encourage you to put away the NLT. I looked at the Greek and the Hebrew and neither say, "LIKE MORTAL MEN". They both say "Like men". This is a good example of translator bias. The translator(s) thinks this passage is about spiritual beings so he/they adds the word "mortal". By doing this he/they cooks his/their own bias into the translation and misleads the reader. There's nothing in the passage that says they are spiritual beings. If we look at the context, we find the Psalm asking, how long will they judge unjustly and accept the wicked? They are told to defend the poor and the fatherless. Are we to suppose that the demons will judge justly? Are we to suppose that demons will defend the poor and fatherless? Are we to suppose that the demons are going to do justice to the afflicted and needy? Are we to suppose the demons are going to deliver the poor and needy? Surely, these are men.

You're expressing your own bias while you're blaming some of the translation. Those "Sons of God" were not created as demons, because indeed, they were expected to defend the poor and the fatherless, deliver judgement, etc. If you wanna ask how, the answer is in Rom. 13:1-7 - through human governments. 13:3 - "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil." They BECAME demons as they failed to discharge their duties and abused their power, and for that they will be judged by God. And their punishment? Die LIKE men. You tell me, my friend, if "sons of God" were mortal men from the beginning instead of spiritual beings, then why would they die LIKE men? Why not just die? Like the rich fool, die tonight?

At the end of the Psalm we see a call for God to judge the earth, for he will inherit the nations. If this passage is talking about demons why is God called to judge the nations. Shouldn't the call have been to judge the angels of the demons? We don't have to guess. If we read on we see who these enemies of God are. He says the enemies of God have set themselves against His people. Then he goes on to list the nations that he's talking about.

Demons, or evil angels, are reigning in those nations, Satan is the "prince of the air", Eph. 2:2, and they are the enemies, the rulers of darkness. And you know what, one day these evil angels WILL be judged, 1 Cor. 6:3-4. I've never guessed anything.

 

[Psalm59]

The eyes are the windows to the soul

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I'll address this issue more shortly. However, everything you've said here is an "inference".

And to be honest, I never guess anything, or make "inference". All I did was using the Scripture to interpret the Scripture, and I don't know why this somehow raises an eyebrow. It's like reading a long novel or watching a tv series, if you start up somewhere in the middle, then chances are, none of it will make any sense to you; to avoid that, you start from page one or the pilot episode, and as the story goes on, you naturally pick up the names and places and other stuffs, so when these stuffs reappear as references, you immediately get it. So why not read and study the bible in the same way?

 

[Butch5]

You're expressing your own bias while you're blaming some of the translation. Those "Sons of God" were not created as demons, because indeed, they were expected to defend the poor and the fatherless, deliver judgement, etc. If you wanna ask how, the answer is in Rom. 13:1-7 - through human governments. 13:3 - "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil." They BECAME demons as they failed to discharge their duties and abused their power, and for that they will be judged by God. And their punishment? Die LIKE men. You tell me, my friend, if "sons of God" were mortal men from the beginning instead of spiritual beings, then why would they die LIKE men? Why not just die? Like the rich fool, die tonight?

Wait, what? Are you saying these started out as men and became spiritual beings? All of our English copies have biases. It's virtually impossible to completely avoid it. But, if we look at the Greek and Hebrew texts the word "mortal" is not there. Romans 13:1-7 speaks of Christians obey the government. It's not about rulers abusing their power.

When he says, "die like men" he qualifies it with, "And fall like one of the princes." Hebrew is known for parallelisms. We could ask the same question of this parable Jesus spoke.

covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth. 16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: 17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? 18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. 20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? 21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 12:15–21.

Why not just say he was going to die that night? Why say, "thy soul shall be required of thee"?

Demons, or evil angels, are reigning in those nations, Satan is the "prince of the air", Eph. 2:2, and they are the enemies, the rulers of darkness. And you know what, one day these evil angels WILL be judged, 1 Cor. 6:3-4. I've never guessed anything.

I agree they reign in the nations, but they're not the enemies in this passage.

 

[Butch5]

And to be honest, I never guess anything, or make "inference". All I did was using the Scripture to interpret the Scripture, and I don't know why this somehow raises an eyebrow. It's like reading a long novel or watching a tv series, if you start up somewhere in the middle, then chances are, none of it will make any sense to you; to avoid that, you start from page one or the pilot episode, and as the story goes on, you naturally pick up the names and places and other stuffs, so when these stuffs reappear as references, you immediately get it. So why not read and study the bible in the same way?

You said the passage is referencing spiritual beings. The passage says no such thing, thus the conclusion must be an inference. I agree with your example o reading or watching a series. But, where in the Bbile do we see a statement that says, "the sons of God are demons"? I'm aware of no such statement. Therefore, however that conclusion is drawn it's an inference.