Trinitarians Godheadians, Can Their Translations Defend The Trinity Doctrine Of Trinity Faith System

[Butch5]

You truly make me chuckle. I would argue that one's IQ is below zero if they use babies as an example of someone saying no to sin / being sinless. When the statement ''Jesus was without sin'' is made, it is a given that He be an adult tempted by sin. Babies cannot be judged as they are babies. A tree cannot be judged as it is a tree. A dog cannot be judged as it is a dog. An adult human, an angel and God, can be judged as they have IQ and accountability.

You are dancing around this fact.

Then, you make a decent point ''God cannot be tempted''. Correct, God cannot sin. God does not sin. Jesus, did not sin....

That God became flesh and opened Himself up to temptation for our sake, is a separate fact and topic. We can discuss it after you grasp Jesus not sinning = deity.



Please see post 11 here Slaves to Sin?.



Being tall is a not a comparative example.

That only God cannot sin is simply a fact. A better example would be 1 + 1 = 2. 2 - 1 = 1.

You truly make me chuckle. I would argue that one's IQ is below zero if they use babies as an example of someone saying no to sin / being sinless. When the statement ''Jesus was without sin'' is made, it is a given that He be an adult tempted by sin. Babies cannot be judged as they are babies. A tree cannot be judged as it is a tree. A dog cannot be judged as it is a dog. An adult human, an angel and God, can be judged as they have IQ and accountability.

You are dancing around this fact.

Then, you make a decent point ''God cannot be tempted''. Correct, God cannot sin. God does not sin. Jesus, did not sin....

That God became flesh and opened Himself up to temptation for our sake, is a separate fact and topic. We can discuss it after you grasp Jesus not sinning = deity.



Please see post 11 here Slaves to Sin?.



Being tall is a not a comparative example.

That only God cannot sin is simply a fact. A better example would be 1 + 1 = 2. 2 - 1 = 1.

You can continue to ignore that the argument is flawed and refuted from Scripture. But that doesn't mean I'm being elusive. I've shown repeatedly that the argument doesn't work. The argument that if one is sinless and has been tempted it makes one deity simply doesn't work. By adding your addition, one must have been tempted, it also eliminates Jesus from contention. Again, if Jesus is God and God cannot be tempted, Jesus could not be tempted, thus He doesn't meet you new qualification for deity, that one must be without sin, and "must have been tempted". By adding this second requirement to avoid the initial refutation that babies are without sin you've inadvertently set up a scenario where Jesus doesn't meet your requirements either (according to your understanding of God).

You see, your addition of the second requirement, one must have been tempted, is valid the way I beleive about God, but it is invalid the way you believe. You see, I believe that the Father is God. So, when the Scriptures say God cannot be tempted it is a reference to the Father. This doesn't include Jesus, thus He could be tempted. However, you believe that Jesus and the Father are both God, the God who cannot be tempted by sin. If Jesus is God and cannot be tempted by sin then He doesn't meet your requirements for deity. This is why I keep telling you your argument is flawed. And, as seen here your understanding of God doesn't work with the Scriptures either.

 

[KingJ]

This doesn't include Jesus, thus He could be tempted. However, you believe that Jesus and the Father are both God, the God who cannot be tempted by sin. If Jesus is God and cannot be tempted by sin then He doesn't meet your requirements for deity. This is why I keep telling you your argument is flawed. And, as seen here your understanding of God doesn't work with the Scriptures eithe

This is where your mind is in a box.

God opened Himself up to temptation when He became flesh.

But temptation of God is a separate matter. The fact that you are not dealing with is that Jesus did not sin.

If you again say that babies are an example of someone not sinning, I will officially conclude you are a troll.

You need to deal with the fact that Jesus did not sin. Stop dancing around it. All sin. Jesus and God do not. Why is that?

It is as simple as 1 + 1 = 2.

The fact that you do not grasp this is simply shocking. 1 + 1 = 2. ALL SIN, except Jesus and God......

But you ignore this because babies, trees, rocks and flowers also have no sin right....

 

[Butch5]

This is where your mind is in a box.

God opened Himself up to temptation when He became flesh.

But temptation of God is a separate matter. The fact that you are not dealing with is that Jesus did not sin.

If you again say that babies are an example of someone not sinning, I will officially conclude you are a troll.

You need to deal with the fact that Jesus did not sin. Stop dancing around it. All sin. Jesus and God do not. Why is that?

It is as simple as 1 + 1 = 2.

The fact that you do not grasp this is simply shocking. 1 + 1 = 2. ALL SIN, except Jesus and God......

But you ignore this because babies, trees, rocks and flowers also have no sin right....

No, my friend. You're the troll. Your argument has been refuted in numerous postd.

 

[KingJ]

No, my friend. You're the troll. Your argument has been refuted in numerous postd.

Yes, you 'refuted' me by saying a baby can sin and scripture says God cannot be tempted.

A baby cannot sin just like a tree or rock cannot sin. 100% idiocy.

God became flesh and was tempted.

You are getting hung up on the ''tempted'' thing. It is a ''separate matter for discussion''.

You need to try focus on one thing at a time. Jesus did not sin. Fact 1. All sin. Fact 2. 1 + 1 = 2.

But sure, keep telling yourself ''I saw a ' no true Scottsman fallacy' I win''.....

You are 100% evasive. Ostrich syndrome.

 

[KingJ]

@Butch5

Muslims believe Jesus sinned. In Islam only Allah is sinless. A non trinitarian belief has to believe He sinned.....

For a Christian to have a non trinitarian belief is very concerning. I am also shocked how you don't see what such a belief implies.

1. It makes the cross and scripture a joke. Jesus is not a perfect sacrifice. All sin, Jesus had to have sinned, He is not God.
2. Jesus is a creation God made to punish with extreme cruelty. God is cruel.
3. God says He loves us but He can't show the maximum act of love for us John 15:13. God does not love us 10/10.
4. Jesus was some unlucky fella who drew the shortest straw. God is demented.

I could go on. But I know I am wasting my time. I have a real suspicion of true sincerity with all who mock the trinity.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5

Muslims believe Jesus sinned. In Islam only Allah is sinless. A non trinitarian belief has to believe He sinned.....

For a Christian to have a non trinitarian belief is very concerning. I am also shocked how you don't see what such a belief implies.

1. It makes the cross and scripture a joke. Jesus is not a perfect sacrifice. All sin, Jesus had to have sinned, He is not God.
2. Jesus is a creation God made to punish with extreme cruelty. God is cruel.
3. God says He loves us but He can't show the maximum act of love for us John 15:13. God does not love us 10/10.
4. Jesus was some unlucky fella who drew the shortest straw. God is demented.

I could go on. But I know I am wasting my time. I have a real suspicion of true sincerity with all who mock the trinity.

Definition of NON SEQUITUR

an inference that does not follow from the premises; specifically : a fallacy resulting from a simple conversion of a universal affirmative proposition or from the transposition of a condition and its consequent… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[KingJ]

Definition of NON SEQUITUR

an inference that does not follow from the premises; specifically : a fallacy resulting from a simple conversion of a universal affirmative proposition or from the transposition of a condition and its consequent… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

1. It is a no brainer that only God is without sin.

2. It is a no brainer that only one who can sin is accountable for sin.

1 + 1 = 2.

Butch, you are an ostrich on this topic and you are guilty of evasion.

Urban Dictionary: ostrich syndrome

Denying or refusing to acknowledge something that is blatantly obvious as if your head were in the sand like an ostrich.

www.urbandictionary.com

Definition of EVASION

a means of evading : dodge; the act or an instance of evading : escape… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi Nick, actually our beliefs are quite different. I believe that God the Father is God almighty. He has no equal. Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son. The first born of creation. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture that says, "God the Holy Spirit". The Holy Wind, Breath, or figuratively, Spirit, is a manifestation of God's presence or power. I don't believe three coequal, coeternal, persons. I believe there are two persons, the Father and the Son, that's all. I beleive the Father alone is God, in the sense of ultimate authority. Jesus is called God in a few places. The word God simply means a ruler or deity that rules over a dominion. The Father is the ultimate ruler as Paul explains in 2Timothy 6. Jesus will rule in His Kingdom when He returns. But He is always subordinate to the Father. The Father is eternal. Jesus was begotten of the Father as the first born of creation.

Hello Butch5,
Sorry for being gone for a few days. I guess you can say life gets in the way.

Holy Spirit is seen as God: But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back [part] of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." Acts 5:3-4 NKJV

I am sure you can explain it away, but it seems pretty clear to me that Peter is not only showing sentience of the Holy Spirit, but also showing the Holy Spirit as God.

This however, makes me ask you if you believe the Holy Spirit has sentience separate from God the Father, and God the Son?

If the 3 persons in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are always in agreement, eternal, separate, to me means it speaks of the Godhead or Trinity if you will though the Word is not found as such in Scripture. Seeing it this way allows for a hierarchy within the Godhead, and as you read the account of each in scripture, it makes perfect sense or should I say logical

Now you say that the Holy Spirit "is a manifestation of God's presence or power" it really must be either or, because for you to exclude the Holy Spirit as a separate personage I realize in your belief you must have both. For then it explains during the Baptismal of Jesus you have both the Father, and Holy Spirit separate yet present at the same time. Then it means that the Father is in Heaven while "Holy Spirit as only a Power is descending as a Dove. That you would have God the Father switching at different times from "manifestation to power" is to me less logical then being separate personages.

I am curious how you see who resides in us as a Temple of God?

Sorry for posing more than one question. I am still a bit off from a procedure I had done earlier today.

With the Love of Christ Jesus. God bless you and yours.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

Hello Butch5,
Sorry for being gone for a few days. I guess you can say life gets in the way.

Holy Spirit is seen as God: But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back [part] of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." Acts 5:3-4 NKJV

I am sure you can explain it away, but it seems pretty clear to me that Peter is not only showing sentience of the Holy Spirit, but also showing the Holy Spirit as God.

Hi Nick, This passage fits perfectly with what I said. When Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit he lied to God the Father. The Father is a sentient being.

This however, makes me ask you if you believe the Holy Spirit has sentience separate from God the Father, and God the Son?

No. As I said, I see two beings, the Father and the Son.

If the 3 persons in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are always in agreement, eternal, separate, to me means it speaks of the Godhead or Trinity if you will though the Word is not found as such in Scripture. Seeing it this way allows for a hierarchy within the Godhead, and as you read the account of each in scripture, it makes perfect sense or should I say logical

How is it logical that one person can consist of three other persons? I don't see how that is the least bit logical. I see a hierarchy, the Father and the Son.

Now you say that the Holy Spirit "is a manifestation of God's presence or power" it really must be either or, because for you to exclude the Holy Spirit as a separate personage I realize in your belief you must have both. For then it explains during the Baptismal of Jesus you have both the Father, and Holy Spirit separate yet present at the same time. Then it means that the Father is in Heaven while "Holy Spirit as only a Power is descending as a Dove. That you would have God the Father switching at different times from "manifestation to power" is to me less logical then being separate personages.

Not at all. At Jesus baptism we see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Breath. The Father is bestowing His presence and power on Jesus. Jesus said, after His baptism, that the Father was in Him. He also said, regarding the miracles He was doing, that of Himself He could do nothing but that it was the Father doing the works.



8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 14:8–11.

The Father is in the Son. How is the Father in the Son? It's via the Holy Breath/ Spirit. Jesus said, it was the Father in Him doing the works. Jesus said of Himself He could do nothing.

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 5:16–19.

The Father was doing the works through Jesus.
Here we have two recordings of the same event. Mathew records Jesus saying He cast out devils by the Spirit of God, while Luke records it as the finger of God. It appears Luke doesn't understand the Holy Spirit to be a third person. He understands it as the finger of God. Luke understands it to be the Father. If we say the Holy Spirit/Breath is a third person we have a problem. One writer records it being done by one person and the other records it being done by a different person. However, If the Holy Spirit/Breath, is the Father then there is no problem and both harmonize nicely.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 12:28.

20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 11:20.

I am curious how you see who resides in us as a Temple of God?

Sorry for posing more than one question. I am still a bit off from a procedure I had done earlier today.

With the Love of Christ Jesus. God bless you and yours.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

I'm not sure what you're referring to as to who resides in us. However, it would have to be the Father. If you're referring to 1Cor. 6:19,

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 6:19.

this is a reference to the Corithian church as the body and the Holy Spirit/Breath being among them. Is this what you're referring to?


I hope all went well with your procedure.

 

[Twistie]

The passage does mention three. However, it says nothing about persons.

Father Son Holy Spirit.


Which don't u believe in?

Twistie

 

[Butch5]

Father Son Holy Spirit.


Which don't u believe in?

Twistie

There's nothing that says they are three separate persons.

 

[Twistie]

The passage does mention three. However, it says nothing about persons.

Father Son Holy Spirit.


Which don't u believe in?

Twis

There's nothing that says they are three separate persons.

So you don't believe that the Messiah died for you?? Death is total separation from YH Himself..

Twistie

 

[Butch5]

Father Son Holy Spirit.


Which don't u believe in?

I don't believe the Spirit is a separate person from the Father.

Twis

So you don't believe that the Messiah died for you?? Death is total separation from YH Himself..

Twistie

What does this have to do with the discussion?

Where is death ever defined as separation from God? Death is loss of life.

 

[Twistie]

I don't believe the Spirit is a separate person from the Father.

What does this have to do with the discussion?

Where is death ever defined as separation from God? Death is loss of life.

Ya need to go spend time with YH cause ya see with the eyes of flesh

For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away

Twistie

 

[Twistie]

This is where your mind is in a box.

God opened Himself up to temptation when He became flesh.

But temptation of God is a separate matter. The fact that you are not dealing with is that Jesus did not sin.

If you again say that babies are an example of someone not sinning, I will officially conclude you are a troll.

You need to deal with the fact that Jesus did not sin. Stop dancing around it. All sin. Jesus and God do not. Why is that?

It is as simple as 1 + 1 = 2.

The fact that you do not grasp this is simply shocking. 1 + 1 = 2. ALL SIN, except Jesus and God......

But you ignore this because babies, trees, rocks and flowers also have no sin right....

Sadly butch don't even know what death is..

Only one can reveal.. flesh births flesh Only Spirit can teach the spirit



Twistie

 

[Butch5]

Ya need to go spend time with YH cause ya see with the eyes of flesh

For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away

Twistie

Really?

 

[Butch5]

Sadly butch don't even know what death is..

Only one can reveal.. flesh births flesh Only Spirit can teach the spirit



Twistie

But you didn't give a definition of death that says it’s separation from God. It's things like this that are the reason Chridtianity is all over the place. People just make stuff up and then say "The Bibles says".

 

[Twistie]

Really?

He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times

so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’

And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away


Twistie

 

[Butch5]

He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times

so that ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.’

And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away


Twistie

That's your answer, just take passages of Scriptuee out of context? I could post those passages right back to you. If you can explain how one being can consist of three beings, something stated nowhere in Scripture, I'm all ears. However, if we claim the Bible is without error it cannot contain a logical contradiction. Claiming one being consists of three being is a logical contradiction. I hope you can read this through that veil.

 

[Twistie]

But you didn't give a definition of death that says it’s separation from God. It's things like this that are the reason Chridtianity is all over the place. People just make stuff up and then say "The Bibles says9

That's your answer, just take passages of Scriptuee out of context? I could post those passages right back to you. If you can explain how one being can consist of three beings, something stated nowhere in Scripture, I'm all ears. However, if we claim the Bible is without error it cannot contain a logical contradiction. Claiming one being consists of three being is a logical contradiction. I hope you can read this through that veil.

Flesh births flesh spirit births spirit only One spirit can reveal

The problem is many drink from others instead of the Lord Himself for it is written

Drink water from your own cistern, running water from your own well. Should your springs overflow in the streets, your streams of water in the public squares? Let them be yours alone,
never to be shared with strangers.

Most don't even seek YH for answers it shows through their words like you r showing with yours

U probably all ruffled cause I said spend time with the Lors like that's a hateful thing..

You can take the suggestion n spend time with Him or don't personally I spend more time with Him then I do with those in the flesh but that's me

I hope ya do tho..

Twistie