Trinity

[Searchingtoo]

That correct. However, those men usually claimed to be deities. Just look at Roman history.

I agree it makes no sense. I said no such thing. I said that Jesus uses the word "true" of the Father showing that all other "gods" are inferior to the Father. I'm not sure how you got equatily out of that.

The Athanasian Creed is nonsense. It's a logical contradiction. Jesus is the first born of all creation. First "born" the only "begotten". That's born, not created.

I never said He was.

He wasn't created. He was begotten. Born of God. Whatever the substance of God is, Jesus was. Paul tells us that He put off that form of God to become man.

Men were called gods in Psalms 82 I think it is verse 6 and they never claimed to be deities.

Seems we agree on something, but it seems obvious to me that he had a beginning, was inferior to Almighty God in many ways, both in authority, knowledge. It seems as though at time his will and Gods were not the same because I think it was the night before his death he said “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine be done.”

I may have accused you of some beliefs that weren't so. Sorry about that. Trinitarians are all over the place with exactly what they think it is I guess.

Col. 1:15 said point blank "who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation". First if you are the image of something you can't. be the thing you're the image of. Of the word translated to firstborn Strong's give this definition: πρωτότοκος prōtótokos, pro-tot-ok'-os; from G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively):—firstbegotten(-born). Use which ever term you want, he had a beginning. So Paul said he was in the form of God. It's no different than saying he was in the image of God. In either case you can't be the thing you are image/form of.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Jesus created ALL things and he existed before ALL things. Jesus did not create himself?

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Ok, but you forgot about Col 1:15 which says "he was the firstborn of all creation". Literally means first one born or begotten. Either way he had a beginning.

 

[Curtis]

Ok, but you forgot about Col 1:15 which says "he was the firstborn of all creation". Literally means first one born or begotten. Either way he had a beginning.

Who made Jesus if he is the only one who created ALL things, and without him nothing was made that was made?

 

[Butch5]

Men were called gods in Psalms 82 I think it is verse 6 and they never claimed to be deities.

Ok, but think about God saying that sarcastically.

Seems we agree on something, but it seems obvious to me that he had a beginning, was inferior to Almighty God in many ways, both in authority, knowledge. It seems as though at time his will and Gods were not the same because I think it was the night before his death he said “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine be done.”

Agreed.

I may have accused you of some beliefs that weren't so. Sorry about that. Trinitarians are all over the place with exactly what they think it is I guess.

No problem. People struggle to argue for the Trinity because it is a logical contradiction. Three persons can't be one is physical sense. They can be one in unity. When Jesus said, "I and the Father are one", it's in the sense eof unity. They are united in purpose, not being.

Col. 1:15 said point blank "who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation". First if you are the image of something you can't. be the thing you're the image of. Of the word translated to firstborn Strong's give this definition: πρωτότοκος prōtótokos, pro-tot-ok'-os; from G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively):—firstbegotten(-born). Use which ever term you want, he had a beginning. So Paul said he was in the form of God. It's no different than saying he was in the image of God. In either case you can't be the thing you are image/form of.

Agreed. He had a beginning as the first begotten of God the Father. Or, as Paul puts it, He was the first begotten of all creation.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Who made Jesus if he is the only one who created ALL things, and without him nothing was made that was made?

I think when it says he created all thing that it is implied that he created all other things since it is obvious that he was created, or birthed if you prefer, but did no create himself obviously.

 

[Curtis]

I think when it says he created all thing that it is implied that he created all other things since it is obvious that he was created, or birthed if you prefer, but did no create himself obviously.

Scripture does not say all other things, it says ALL things. ALL things visible and invisible every single thing that exists Jesus created by him, and for himself, and he is before ALL things.

What things existed before all things? God is the only thing that existed before ALL things.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Ok, but think about God saying that sarcastically.

Agreed.

No problem. People struggle to argue for the Trinity because it is a logical contradiction. Three persons can't be one is physical sense. They can be one in unity. When Jesus said, "I and the Father are one", it's in the sense eof unity. They are united in purpose, not being.

Agreed. He had a beginning as the first begotten of God the Father. Or, as Paul puts it, He was the first begotten of all creation.

Now we're getting somewhere. I think the way they were in unity is the way Jesus described it in John 17:20-23 - "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

Sometime people use John 10:30 where Jesus said "I and My Father are one.” to prove Jesus is God, but as you can see just a little further in John he explained more clearly what he meant. Notice also that he said "the glory which You gave Me I have given them" which shows having Gods glory is not equivalent with being God.

 

[Searchingtoo]

I think when it says he created all thing that it is implied that he created all other things since it is obvious that he was created, or birthed if you prefer, but did no create himself obviously.

All it takes a little common sense to know that if Jesus was the firstborn of all creation he had a beginning and he sure didn't create or birth himself. And since he called through the scriptures the son of God that is what he is. "The only begotten son of God". Strong's says the only begotten literally means this: μονογενής monogenḗs, mon-og-en-ace'; from G3441 and G1096; only-born, i.e. sole:—only (begotten, child).

 

[Curtis]

Firstborn does not mean first created! Firstborn refers to being preeminent over all things that exist because Jesus existed before ALL things.

 

[PloughBoy]

All it takes a little common sense to know that if Jesus was the firstborn of all creation he had a beginning and he sure didn't create or birth himself. And since he called through the scriptures the son of God that is what he is. "The only begotten son of God". Strong's says the only begotten literally means this: μονογενής monogenḗs, mon-og-en-ace'; from G3441 and G1096; only-born, i.e. sole:—only (begotten, child).

So to be clear are you saying the Bible is teaching us that Jesus Christ is not a "Part of The Triune GOD"? and that Jesus is Not GOD neither is "The Parakletos", is GOD?

I am not going to argue will you on it, just to be clear what you are saying.

 

[Butch5]

Now we're getting somewhere. I think the way they were in unity is the way Jesus described it in John 17:20-23 - "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

Sometime people use John 10:30 where Jesus said "I and My Father are one.” to prove Jesus is God, but as you can see just a little further in John he explained more clearly what he meant. Notice also that he said "the glory which You gave Me I have given them" which shows having Gods glory is not equivalent with being God.

Agreed! I think it's obvious that Jesus wasn't praying that believers would somehow morph into one being.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Firstborn does not mean first created! Firstborn refers to being preeminent over all things that exist because Jesus existed before ALL things.

Where did you get that idea. There are over 100 places in the Bible where the term firstborn is used and I couldn't find one that did not mean first in order except sort of where Jacob flimflammed Isaac. You must of been reading some trinity misinformation. Check it out for yourself. It doesn't take that long to read 100 verses. Besides that Strong's never mention such a thing as preeminence.

 

[Searchingtoo]

So to be clear are you saying the Bible is teaching us that Jesus Christ is not a "Part of The Triune GOD"? and that Jesus is Not GOD neither is "The Parakletos", is GOD?

I am not going to argue will you on it, just to be clear what you are saying.

The word paráklētos refers to an intercessor, consoler or comforter. So yes that's what I'm saying. Jesus in not Almighty God, he is not God the son. He is the son of God. Big difference. The only begotten son of God. The firstborn of all creation. If you want to take the time to read over all the posts here (carefully) you can decide for yourself.

 

[PloughBoy]

All it takes a little common sense to know that if Jesus was the firstborn of all creation he had a beginning and he sure didn't create or birth himself. And since he called through the scriptures the son of God that is what he is. "The only begotten son of God". Strong's says the only begotten literally means this: μονογενής monogenḗs, mon-og-en-ace'; from G3441 and G1096; only-born, i.e. sole:—only (begotten, child).

You are not going believe me I am to old and had old books. y'all believe in modern day lexicons and tampered translations. who input the word "begotten" and dress it up real nice and pretty with a lot of camouflage Tapestry. "His only begotten and I got Strongs ref .Numbers, and copied the Transliterations" I am bad, intelligent and smart and know Bible, LOL! The devil ain't got nothing on me. I going to watch these seasons.

You know I am going to start enjoying these picture shows. I will not need any kind of reruns, for every week, it is going to be a new scene, and then A new season. with no need for reruns. This is going to be good. and I know where it is heading.

Revelation 13 BSB
…7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8And all who dwell onthe earth will worship the beast— all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain. 9He who has an ear, let him hear:

I Going to watch, I can see, where this is going, ten miles out.

 

[PloughBoy]

The word paráklētos refers to an intercessor, consoler or comforter. So yes that's what I'm saying. Jesus in not Almighty God, he is not God the son. He is the son of God. Big difference. The only begotten son of God. The firstborn of all creation. If you want to take the time to read over all the posts here (carefully) you can decide for yourself.

where did you learn that at? the internet too! the internet Lexicons, or Vines, or did you get it from The Hard copy; "Thayer's Greek English Lexicon of The new Testament words"?

You know you must show Your Source of Information on TalkJESUS.com? you know that right?

I reported you for not listing your source of information.

 

[Waggles]

You still haven't produced an ounce of proof that Jesus is God

You have given no proof that Jesus [Emmanuel] is not God.

 

[Waggles]

I think when it says he created all thing that it is implied that he created all other things since it is obvious that he was created, or birthed if you prefer, but did no create himself obviously.

And there you go - opinion and supposition.

 

[PloughBoy]

Where did you get that idea. There are over 100 places in the Bible where the term firstborn is used and I couldn't find one that did not mean first in order except sort of where Jacob flimflammed Isaac. You must of been reading some trinity misinformation. Check it out for yourself. It doesn't take that long to read 100 verses. Besides that Strong's never mention such a thing as preeminence.

And where are you getting your information that the Word "begotten" son is in the The "Original Copied Manuscript" which is the Very word of GOD and Not a translated test of "The Holy Scripture" It is not there, but many so tried to cover it up, Which Manuscript can you find! it, and then we All can look it up, To see if it is there!

I say you are wrong, and it is not there. what you will find is "The only Son of GOD" the one who always have been with him and always have been and not without and they never ever been without one another, " The Father, The Son, and the Parakletos" which is describe in "Anthropomorphic" Terms. no one knows what "GOD" is. how can the Finite explain the infinite, The finite Mind cannot comprehend that which is "incomprehensible"

 

[Searchingtoo]

And there you go - opinion and supposition.

You caught me No one is perfect except Jesus. Maybe even he made a mistake "But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.” -Luke 9:27

 

[Waggles]

The only begotten son of God. The firstborn of all creation.

This does not deny or refute that Yeshua is not also God.
Given that the plan for our salvation begins before the creation of our world there is truly a great mystery here in the spiritual realm.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.