Trinity

[Jonathan_Gale]

Om not sure what you're getting at here. I agree He existed prior to Abraham.

I'm not sure what you're getting at either. And I also agree that the Word was God IN NATURE, but that doesn't make him another god, an angel or whatever deity you think he is based soly on this understanding of the Greek word.

 

[Butch5]

For the record, I never espoused the doctrine that God is "three beings." God was, is and always will be ONE, but there's this conundrum of the three appearing simultaneously at Jesus's baptism, isn't it. The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus like a dove, and God yelled from heaven: "this is my beloved son, of whom I'm very pleased." The "clover" and "egg" analogies are flawed and misleading explanataions for that event, and for the record, I've never espoused such analogies. What I believe and understand is very simple - SAME God is in heaven, on earth, and in between. This is a mechanism by which we can KNOW God, without that we can know ABOUT him, we can perceive his existence, we can find his fingerprints in all his creation, but we can't KNOW him. The only way to know God is through Jesus, and the Holy Spirit leads you to Jesus, it's like God's algorithm.

You know, It fascinates and frustrates me, that the devil knows this mechanism perfectly well, and he's been using his rigged algorithm to attract lost souls to the devil everyday, and here we're debating whether this is real and whether Jesus is God.

I didn't say you espoused one God as three beings. That is the typical expression of it, though, when you ask most Christians.

You see, I don't see a conundrum at Jesus' baptism. We have Jesus, the Son of God. The Nicene Creed tells us that Jesus came out of God. Jesus Himself tells us that He came out of God. So we have two beings, one is the Father and the other is the Son. Paul calls Him the "first born of all creation'. So, we have the Son on earth. We have the Father speaking from Heaven, and we have the Holy Breath, or the Father's power, being bestowed on Jesus. Luke calls the Holy Breath the power of the Highest.

And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Jesus Himself tells us that the Holy Breath is the Father.

“I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.

In chaoter 16 Jesus has been speaking about the coming of thComforter, the Spirit or Breath of Truth. Then, at the end of the discussion He tells them that He's been speaking to them in figurative language, figures of speech. But, He says that one day He will tell them plainly of the Father. So, all that He's been saying about the comforter or the Spirit or Breath of Truth is language about the Father. He was speaking of the Father.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Not sure what you mean by this?

You asked why the Word “was" instead of "is", I gave you an answer - "in the beginning", which was in the past, therefore, past tense.

How did God's nature or plan become fresh? We also see in Revelation the Jesus is named, 'the Word of God'.

God is beyond time and space, he created time and space. He said, "let there be light," and there was light. How? That's not for us to know, no one within time and space can comprehend, therefore he came and reached to us, we can't come and reach to him. The closest analogy is a developer who built a virtual world, his nature or plan can come into being in that virtual world with mere lines of code.

 

[Butch5]

I'm not sure what you're getting at either. And I also agree that the Word was God IN NATURE, but that doesn't make him another god, an angel or whatever deity you think he is based soly on this understanding of the Greek word.

It's not one word, my friend. It's a whole pattern through Scripture. Paul also tells us.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Here Paul says, 'being in the form of God, He emptied Himself'. Paul uses the pronoun "He" which indicates a person. He says, 'He emptied Himself'. That emptying had to take place before the incarnation. So Paul is referring to Him as a person before the incarnation.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I didn't say you espoused one God as three beings. That is the typical expression of it, though, when you ask most Christians.

You see, I don't see a conundrum at Jesus' baptism. We have Jesus, the Son of God. The Nicene Creed tells us that Jesus came out of God. Jesus Himself tells us that He came out of God. So we have two beings, one is the Father and the other is the Son. Paul calls Him the "first born of all creation'. So, we have the Son on earth. We have the Father speaking from Heaven, and we have the Holy Breath, or the Father's power, being bestowed on Jesus. Luke calls the Holy Breath the power of the Highest.

And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Jesus Himself tells us that the Holy Breath is the Father.

“I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.

In chaoter 16 Jesus has been speaking about the coming of thComforter, the Spirit or Breath of Truth. Then, at the end of the discussion He tells them that He's been speaking to them in figurative language, figures of speech. But, He says that one day He will tell them plainly of the Father. So, all that He's been saying about the comforter or the Spirit or Breath of Truth is language about the Father. He was speaking of the Father.

Then what are we fighting about? I believe in the Nicene Creed, I'm on board with you the whole time. The only thing I'm against is that "typical expression of it" because it causes confusion, and I don't consider them as three beings, but three manifestations or three presences of the same God.

 

[Butch5]

You asked why the Word “was" instead of "is", I gave you an answer - "in the beginning", which was in the past, therefore, past tense.

But that doesn't address the question. If Jesus is God, why did John say the Word was God? Wouldn't we expect him to say Jesus is God?

God is beyond time and space, he created time and space. He said, "let there be light," and there was light. How? That's not for us to know, no one within time and space can comprehend, therefore he came and reached to us, we can't come and reach to him. The closest analogy is a developer who built a virtual world, his nature or plan can come into being in that virtual world with mere lines of code.

Ok, if no one can comprehend it then you're just speculating, correct? 7

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It's not one word, my friend. It's a whole pattern through Scripture. Paul also tells us.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Here Paul says, 'being in the form of God, He emptied Himself'. Paul uses the pronoun "He" which indicates a person. He says, 'He emptied Himself'. That emptying had to take place before the incarnation. So Paul is referring to Him as a person before the incarnation.

Yeah (deleted) right, why else would I mention Gen. 18:1-15 multiple times? God appeared to Abraham as a MAN, not a phantom or a hologram, but in flesh and blood, for he ate and rested in Abraham's tent! Paul was not aiming at incarnation, he was teaching the concept in Is. 53, that Jesus Christ the messiah took form of a SERVANT and died for the sin of mankind, instead of a conquering king wiping out the Roman Empire, which most Jews, including Jesus's own disciples, expected.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

But that doesn't address the question. If Jesus is God, why did John say the Word was God? Wouldn't we expect him to say Jesus is God?

Because as I explained before, the Word was at the beginning, the incarnation was NOT. Paul didn't say Jesus was God and with God at the beginning, he said the WORD was God and with God at the beginning.

Ok, if no one can comprehend it then you're just speculating, correct?

Then all of Jesus's parables of the kingdom would be speculation, and all of Paul's teachings about resurrection would be speculation. They both used analogies very often, the purpose of those is to make incomprehensible concepts comprehensible, it's a simple teaching tool, don't you see that?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Greetings @Jonathan_Gale




It is not a game, which you probably realise.

I think you'll find it safe to have an intelligent interaction with Butch5 @Butch5 .

I am sure he is open to anything that might challenge his 'position' and understanding and at the same time to do so peacably and gently.
Let us all do likewise and allow each other a voice, as we ourselves would appreciate a voice also.


Bless you ....><>

Bless you, brother. Actually, he and I both believe in the trinity, just with extraordinarily different understandings of it. I see it as a mechanism to accomplish God's purpose of "filling the earth and multiply", it's like an influencer, his channel and an algorithm that directs audience to his channel. Of course the trinity is far complex than that, but at least in this analogy, there's one and only one influencer, not three influencers, that demystifies the confusing doctrine of "three co-equal persons/beings in one".

 

[Christ4Ever]

Apparently I am somewhat late to the conversation.
Would anyone be bothered if I joined in?
( It had been my understanding that discussions about the Trinity were very frowned upon if not outright prohibited on TalkJesus)
Am I mistaken @Christ4Ever ?

Then again I haven't yet had the time to read through all eight pages, so maybe every concern was addressed and settled, yes?

Just wondering what the upside here would be, as Trinitarians are extremely indoctrinated and not necessarily well educated in Greek grammar and styles of writing.

An entire wing of my seminary's library is dedicated to Christology.

Fascinating,
Rhema

Dear Brother,
You are not mistaken.
If anyone hasn't read the site's statement of faith upon joining should do so now. Link located at the bottom of each page.
This site believes in the Trinity.
Continuing to introduce a doctrine contrary to this can, and eventually will get you banned.
You are welcome to send me or one of the other Staff a Private Message to discuss this, but it is not open to debate in the open forum.
My apologies for getting to this thread a little on the late side for reviewing.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Beetow]

Abortion
Trinity
LGBTQ
Baptism
Good Friday

Those are hot-button topics just about guaranteed to produce quarreling and perpetual
debates that never get to the bottom of anything.
_

 

[Waggles]

Abortion
Trinity
LGBTQ
Baptism
Good Friday

Those are hot-button topics just about guaranteed to produce quarreling and perpetual
debates that never get to the bottom of anything.
_

You forgot speaking in tongues on that list.

 

[Waggles]

1Sam 3:1 Now the boy Samuel was ministering to the LORD in the presence of Eli. And the word of the LORD was rare in those days; there was no frequent vision. [appearance]
1Sam 3:10 And the LORD came and stood, calling as at other times, “Samuel! Samuel!” And Samuel said, “Speak, for your servant hears.”

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Because as I explained before, the Word was at the beginning, the incarnation was NOT. Paul didn't say Jesus was God and with God at the beginning, he said the WORD was God and with God at the beginning.


Then all of Jesus's parables of the kingdom would be speculation, and all of Paul's teachings about resurrection would be speculation. They both used analogies very often, the purpose of those is to make incomprehensible concepts comprehensible, it's a simple teaching tool, don't you see that?

Don't either of you think Jesus and the word are the same?

 

[Waggles]

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.” - How are Jesus and the Father one? In spirit? In mind? In power? In coexistence?
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”
33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

 

[Waggles]

John 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Thus the Spirit-filled Pentecostal disciple who prays in the Spirit - has the Father, has Jesus, and has the Holy Spirit.
That is three lots of God by my reckoning.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake to them, saying, All authority hath been given me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore, and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

 

[Waggles]

Acts 20:27 For I shrank not from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.
28 Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God which he purchased with his own blood.

2Peter 1:1 Symeon Peter, bondman and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained an equally precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not unbelieving, but believing.
28 Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God. -[note that Jesus did not correct or rebuke Thomas in declaring this]

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Don't either of you think Jesus and the word are the same?

No, the Word is abstract and incorporeal, Jesus is a man in the flesh. God is a God of distinction, devil is if confusion, that’s what Babylon means - confusion.

 

[Beetow]

The Word's flesh per John 1:14 didn't start out divine. He started out as a Jewish
infant whose origin can be easily traced to David, Abraham, and ultimately to
Adam; so in point of fact: the Word's flesh was as human as any man can possibly
be.

Now if his ancestors Adam, Abraham, and David were all created men, then the
Word's flesh was/is a created man too because created life is the only kind of
human life that those men were able to reproduce.

So then, the question is: How did the Word's flesh go from dust to divine?

It's sort of ironic that the average rank and file pew warmer will readily attest that
the Word's flesh is fully Man and fully God when in reality they only believe he's
fully God because in order to be fully Man, he'd have to be related to not only Adam
but also Noah (Gen 9:19 & Acts 17:26) which raises questions about Jesus relative
to original sin and the so-called fallen nature.
_

 

[Waggles]

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was thus: His mother Mary, betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:30 And the angel said to her, Fear not, Mariam: for thou hast found grace with God.
31 And lo, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bear a Son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 HE shall be great, and shall be called Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give him the throne of his father David:
33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob unto the ages; and of his kingdom shall be no end.
34 And Mariam said unto the angel, How shall this be, since I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also what is begotten shall be called holy, Son of God.