Were they right?

[brakelite]

I said I was going to look at Revelation 13, but have changed my mind and thought a quick tour of Revelation 12 would serve us better to lay a foundation for what follows.

Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Revel. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


It can be deduced from the above scriptures that Jesus looks upon His church as His bride. A chaste and virtuous woman clothed in His righteousness. (The ***** of Revel.17:1 is an apostate church.) The woman of Revelation 12 is a beautiful picture of God's church, representing both that of the old and new testaments.

Revel.12:1 ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The sun, moon, and stars are all light givers, appropriate adornments for God's people who are to be light bearers.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

The sun is representative of God's righteousness...she is standing on the moon, the reflected light of God's truth as revealed in His word, while the 12 stars depict the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles.

Revel 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered....
....5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This child of course was Jesus. (See Rev. 19:13-16; Ps. 2:7-9)

Rev.12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days......14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The true church fled into the wilderness to escape persecution from both pagan and papal Rome. It was through these two creations of Satan that he sought to destroy God's people. She took the sun, the moon, and the stars with her; she did not leave them behind for the Roman church to take possession. We see here also a repeat of that same time prophecy...in Daniel applying to the first life stage of the papacy..538ad to 1798ad....here to the time of persecutions for the church in the wilderness.

It was around 1798 that God provided an escape....more on that when we look at Revel. 13.
(Rev.12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.)

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The bolded portion above is God's description of His end-time church, His representative people just before Jesus returns to take them home. The following four points identify this church....
1. She will be a persecuted church. If you're church is popular, is part of the Christian majority, and has the approbation of both the secular world and the Christian mainstream, you are in the wrong church.
2. There will be only a remnant. A remnant is the last piece of cloth remaining on a roll in your local draper's shop. The colour, the pattern, etc is identical to the first piece of that roll. God's end-time church will be identical to the apostolic church.
3. They are commandment keepers. This is in direct contrast to the popular theology of today that claims that Christ's death did away with those commandments.
4. They have the testimony of Jesus Christ, which Rev. 19:10 informs us is the spirit of prophecy.

Thus she will be an unpopular, insignificant (in a worldly sense but powerful spiritually) obedient people guided by prophecy.

Some claim that the woman of Rev.12 is Israel. Jesus repeatedly warned His church (not Israel) that they would face false prophets, false Christs, false doctrines, and demonic lies. The apostles also warned their contemporaries and us of the same dangers of deception. (See Matthew 24:4,5,11,23-26; Luke 21:8; 2 Thess. 2:3,4,9-12; 1 Timothy 4:1,2; 2 Timothy 4:2-4)
Who was this warning for? Israel, or the church? Who is it that Satan attacks, and how? By means of a flood which emanates from his mouth. (Rev.12:16,17) Add to this what we saw in Daniel 7:8 re the little horn, or the antichrist...it had a mouth speaking great things. Then, as we will see in Revel. 13:14, we see the second beast 'commands' to make an image, and in verse 15 that image speaks. In Revel. 16:13 we see lying spirits come forth from the mouth of the false prophet, the dragon, and the beast. Connecting the dots we prove that the woman is the church being deceived and filled with false teachers, false prophets, and false doctrines. Hence the fact that by the time of the end, only a remnant is left. As the scripture says, 'many will be deceived....'

 

[David777]

Hello again brakelite.

I noticed that you highlighted "commandments of God".

Most interesting that you would do that. You are leaving
evidence brakelite.

I do hope that you mean the following version of
the Greek word "entole".

See below,

2 John 4-5

I rejoiced greatly that I found of your children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

And now I entreat you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

I am concerned about you brakelite.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I noticed that you highlighted "commandments of God".

Most interesting that you would do that. You are leaving
evidence brakelite.

I do hope that you mean the following version of
the Greek word "entole".

See below,

2 John 4-5

I rejoiced greatly that I found of your children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

And now I entreat you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

I am concerned about you brakelite.

Not that brakelite needs a confidence build up from me of all people. However, he has done an excellent job of covering a very difficult subject.

I realize that you have complimented him in a previous post, but you have a concern with a highlight part dealing with commandments?

By the way even though I have an inkling of what you're insinuating from previous posts...what did you mean by "You are leaving
evidence brakelite."

After my last post in OSAS I didn't think I'd be feeling a smile back on my face for a while.Thanks David777 for changing that.

 

[chris meads]

Perhaps they were speaking about the spirit of rome???? For is not all of todays society modled after rome and was not rome moddled after babylon?

 

[brakelite]

I noticed that you highlighted "commandments of God".

Most interesting that you would do that. You are leaving
evidence brakelite.

I do hope that you mean the following version of
the Greek word "entole".

See below,

2 John 4-5

I rejoiced greatly that I found of your children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

And now I entreat you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

I am concerned about you brakelite.

Hi David. Like C4E, I find it interesting that out of all the screeds of info and scripture I have quoted and commented on throughout this thread, you focused on that one highlight re the commandments of God. You say, "I do hope that you mean....". Not wanting to throw this thread into a wormhole in space, but I am curious. Are there commandments of God that you believe ought not be obeyed? Are there commandments that ought to be ignored perhaps because they are not good for us? A burden perhaps? Or too inconvenient? Does that one 'new commandment' you quote invalidate all previous commandments?
The text I quoted form Revelation 12 doesn't happen to differentiate between one commandment and another. It simply describes the church of the last days as keeping the commandments of God and having the testimony of Jesus, which elsewhere is described as the spirit of prophecy. Surely you aren't trying to claim it should be different? Revelation 14 agrees with this. v12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Are you disagreeing with my synopsis of these texts re the church?

Quote BL:
1. She will be a persecuted church. If you're church is popular, is part of the Christian majority, and has the approbation of both the secular world and the Christian mainstream, you are in the wrong church.
2. There will be only a remnant. A remnant is the last piece of cloth remaining on a roll in your local draper's shop. The colour, the pattern, etc is identical to the first piece of that roll. God's end-time church will be identical to the apostolic church.
3. They are commandment keepers. This is in direct contrast to the popular theology of today that claims that Christ's death did away with the commandments.
4. They have the testimony of Jesus Christ, which Rev. 19:10 informs us is the spirit of prophecy.

Thus she will be an unpopular, insignificant (in a worldly sense but powerful spiritually) obedient people guided by prophecy.

You are concerned? I appreciate your concern, but find it odd that you are concerned because I have suggested that a church should be obedient to God.

 

[brakelite]

Revelation 13

Okay, here we are again. This time, as promised, I will take a look at Revelaion 13, the one chapter in scripture that possibly has the most to offer both the serious Bible student and the popular movie maker when it comes to last day events surrounding that fearsome entity, the dreaded Antichrist.
The first beast of Revelation 13 reveals to us characteristics which remarkably parallel those of the little horn of Daniel 7. These characteristics, like those of the little horn, can be readily identifiable as belonging to the papal power.
As I have mentioned before on several occasions, it is impoprtant to remember that prophecy is progressively revealing. The first prophecy we looked at in Daniel 2, the one with the statue, formed the foundation to all that followed. As we progressed, we found that each subsequent prophecy gave more detail, expanding on the previous prophecy, magnifying the view God was revealing to us. However, whatever interpretation we applied to the prophecy we were dealing with, must never contradict or deviate in any way from that which had gone before. For example, once it was established that beasts represented kingdoms, that understanding applies throughout the whole process. To deviate from that; to make out that the beast of Rev.13 for example represents an individual, does irreparable damage to all the work that has gone before, and means we need to start again at Daniel 2, and 7, making those beast individuals. A quite impossible task, and one which distorts and throws darkness and misunderstanding upon all our study.

Revelation 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revel. 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the ***** sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

We see here a kingdom rising up in a populous part of the earth, in this case the capital of the then superpower, Rome. When compared with...

Revel.12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

...we see that whatever this beast is, it is a clone of Satan, the dragon, himself. This is his baby so to speak, his own creation, made after his own likeness.

Revel. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The Apostle John from his vantage point was looking backwards in time and seeing the same beasts of Daniel 7 only in reverse order. Daniel was looking forward, John back. Thus what John was seeing was a beast that had already begun to rise to power in his day. This gels with his comment in one of his letters that states that " even now are there many antichrists". The spirit that gave rise to the one Antichrist had begun to develop and was seen in several different forms in Johns lifetime. This beast is a composite of all that had gone before. Those characteristics which marked the uniqueness and nature of the previous powers were now resident in this one.

Like unto a leopard....
Nothing in nature, be they plants, animals, reptiles, birds, nor fish, can lie, not having the power of speech, but they can deceive. Deception is attained through appearance, or camouflage. And deception Jesus said, would be Satan's principle weapon of choice in the last days. The leopard is a prime example of camouflage. The leopard, unlike the tiger or the lion, fore the most part does not stalk its prey. It patiently lies in wait, in all appearance an innocent part of the foliage, until its prey came to him, then the leopard strikes. The papacy is of very similar character. An attractive and seemingly innocent part of the Christian landscape, but deceptively dangerous. Patienc is the hallmark of the Catholic church. 400 years she has waited for the counter reformation to bear fruit, and today we witness hundreds of priests and lay people from other faiths and denominations now returning to the 'mother church'. Hundreds of years she has waited for her opportunity to rise again to her former glory. Her ambitions are now global, take note of the following from a very recent news report:
The Vatican called on Monday for the establishment of a "global public authority" and a "central world bank" to rule over financial institutions that have become outdated and often ineffective in dealing fairly with crises.....A proposal by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace calls for a new world economic order based on ethics and the "achievement of a universal common good." It follows Pope Benedict XVI's 2009 economic encyclical that denounced a profit-at-all-cost mentality as responsible for the global financial meltdown.
Read more: Vatican Calls For Global Authority On Economy | Fox Business


Isn't this interesting? Particularly when one considers the prophetic implications of an international authority with the power to enforce a religious mark using economic boycotts to encourage subservience.

Notice on more thing about leopards. Jesus Himself significantly remarked that a leopard cannot change her spots. It is worthwhile to note that many protestants today would claim that the papacy has changed. That she has mellowed from her former harsh judgemental attitudes which marked her history throughout the dark ages. But can a leopard change her character? No.
Jer. 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

The feet of a bear....

Death is, until the resurrection, like a deep dreamless sleep. In 1798 the papacy, as we saw previously, received its deadly head-wound (Verse 3) when the then pope was taken captive by the French, and the Catholic church 'ceased to range over the country-side' like a bear and went into hibernation until 1929 when Mussolini returned to the Vatican and the pope the civil power which had been taken from her. Once again she was a church/state power, the unique distinction which marks her pagan beginnings.
The feet and claws of a bear are her most powerful weapons: one strike can rip open her prey, killing instantly. The injunction in Daniel 7:5 of the bear/Media-Persia to "devour much flesh" is very apt when applied to such a beats as a bear which has a ravenous appetite especially after hibernation. Whether in hibernation, or as a leopard or bear, whether in patient hiding or as a ravenous beast on the hunt, the Vatican will do whatever is necessary to achieve her goals...global dominion.
An interesting point regarding the bear. The Media/Persians, which nation was represented by the bear in Daniel, were renowned as lawmakers.

Daniel 6:8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

"Why does the Catholic church not recant what was said by Trent...because it is Catholic teaching that a council teaches authoritatively, and the church is not authorised to repudiate retrospectively a conciliar decree".
John Neuhaus.

Every principle of the papacy that existed in past ages exists today.The doctrines devised in the darkest ages are still held. The leopard has not, indeed cannot, change her spots. The laws, canons, and various decrees which vaunted the papal power's presumed authority to torture, to wage war, and to destroy all who believe in their God given right to freedom of conscience, still exist today. Not one has been abrogated or altered. Their own dogma regarding infallibility forbids any change to that which has been officially legislated as articles of doctrine in the dogmas and canons of the Catholic Church. The inquisition, torture, and burning of heretics in past ages are still looked upon by the ruling coucils of the Vatican as justifiable, lawful, and at times even necessary.


mouth of a lion....

Ask a native of Africa what the most fearsome sound is in the African bush and all would agree that it is the roar of the lion. Various bulls and pronouncements from popes and his representatives have for centuries sent chills of fear and dread down the spines of kings and common man alike. There was a time, until the late 18th century, when a pronouncement of excommunication from the church could send an entire nation into a state of fear of eternal damnation in the fires of hell. Like the devil, "as a roaring lion walketh about seeking who he may devour" the papacy has no true authority in spiritual matters. It is the fear, rather than the popes words themselves, that has destroyed the faith of millions. "But we have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but rather the spirit of adoption" (Romans 8:15) "and of power, and of love, and a sound mind". (2 Tim. 1:7) Notice the mouth "speaking great things and blasphemies" (Rev.13:15). Since its re-establsihment in 1929, the Vatican has slowly but surely wooed herself into becoming once again a world power, and presidents and royalty alike present themselves to the pope bowing before him, kissing the ring upon his finger, and wait in awe and reverance to hear his words...."and all the world wonders after the beast". (Revel. 13:5)

 

[B-A-C]

Where to begin.

Protestant - to protest, what are we protesting? The Roman Catholic church of course. What specifically?

The papacy - Christ is the one and only head of the Church.

Mary - there is so much to say here.
Praying to Mary, worshipping Mary, naming churches after Mary, calling her the Mother of God, calling her the Queen of Heaven, calling her the mediatrix (Jesus isn't the only mediator?) , saying she was sinless, (she broke the curse of sin, so Jesus didn't have to) saying Jesus was her only child, saying her birth (not Jesus) was the immaculate conception, saying her parents were Anne and Joaquim, there is more here, but these are the big ones.

Priests - The "office" of Earthly priesthood is no longer needed. We our own priests now, Christ is high Priest,
Mass - It is not simply a "remembrance" but they believe transubstatiation actually turns the juice (wine) into Jesus's blood, and the bread actually turns into Jesus's body. This has to be done by a priest (remember the purpose of a priest is to sacrifice) so they are continually (sacrificing) crucifying Jesus over and over again.
Priests should not be married, popes should not be married - but Peter was married. (Matt 8:14, Mark 1:30, Luke 4:38)
Calling them vicar (which means substitute or proxy)
Calling them "father" - the Bible says we only have one spiritual father. (Matt 23:9)

Peter - was it Peter that was rock the church was built on.. or was it his belief that Jesus was the son of God, the Messiah that the church was built on.

Praying to saints - The Bible says we shouldn't.
Saying that praying "through" Mary of the saints is intercessory prayer. This isn't what the Bible calls intercessory prayer.

Belief that works, indulgences, and hail Mary prayers are essential for salvation.

The idea of "infused" grace. The idea of infant baptisms and "confirmation".

Protestants believe - the 5 sola's.
1 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone") - only the Bible is the authorative Word of God.
2 Sola fide ("by faith alone") - Faith not works, is what saves you.
3 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
4 Solus Christus or Solo Christo ("Christ alone" or "through Christ alone") - Not through Mary, or the pope, or works, or sacraments, or catechisms.
5 Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

Whether you agree or disagree with all the things above or not, these are things that most "mainstream" protestants are protesting about the Roman Catholic church.

These were the biggest parts of Luther's 95 thesis. Not much has changed in the last 500 years.

In the New Testament times the city of Babylon didn't exist. (It still doesnt today) Many scholars believe babylon was a "code" word used for Rome to get past Roman censors.
Rome was called the city of seven hills back in the New Testament times, and it's close to the water. Babylon had no hills and certainly wasn't close to any water.
The queen of heaven was an evil spirit certain churches sacrificed to in the old testament (Jeremiah 44). More Christians were killed in Rome under Nero than probably at any other time in history. Roman soldiers nailed Jesus to the cross. The Roman Catholic church likes to believe they were the "only" church for many years, and while it's true the protestant branch broke off from them, the Orthodox church was always in existance during this first 1500 years.

 

[B-A-C]

Mat 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
Mat 16:14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."
Mat 16:15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Was Peter really the "this" that Jesus was talking about? Or was the fact that Peter believed Jesus was the Messiah, the son of God the "this" that Jesus was talking about?
Did the Holy Spirit reveal to Peter that his name was Peter (I'm guessing he already knew this) or did the Holy Spirit reveal to him who Jesus was?

Who did Peter himself say the cornerstone of the church was?
1Pet 2:3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.
1Pet 2:4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
1Pet 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pet 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
1Pet 2:7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
1Pet 2:8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
1Pet 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Also see... Matt 21:42, Mark 12:10, Luke 9:22, Luke 17:25, Luke 20:17, and Acts 4:11

 

[brakelite]

Seven heads

We have looked at the composition aspect of the beast, now I would like to discuss things in a little more detail. Remember, the precedent has already been established throughout all previous prophecies that beasts are political institutions, nations, empires.(Dan 7:23; 8:21-22) They are not individual people. Please, let us not change what has already been established by God Himself. This beast is no exception. The composite nature of the beast confirms this, in that the individual composites are themselves nations, or kingdoms.
It is a political/religious or church/state union that the scripture clearly states lives for 1260 prophetic years. At the end of that period it receives a deadly head wound. It is those heads, and the wound to one of them and its resurrection, that I will now discuss.

Revelation 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

The Bible interprets itself. As the angel in Daniel informed us what the beasts represent, the Bible also tells us plainly what the heads represent. No need for guesswork or 'private' interpretation.

Isaiah 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Heads represent kingdoms. The four heads on the leopard represented four different kingdoms (compare Dan 7:6 with Dan 8:22).The kings that lead those four were Ptolemy, Seleucas, Cassander, and Lysimachus. Seven heads therefore represent seven kingdoms or State powers, prominently described in Daniel & the Revelation, that Satan has and will work through to persecute God’s people.

Seven indicates completeness and seven is the complete set of the primary powers that have opposed God and His people throughout history. Indeed there are just seven powers represented in the books of Daniel and Revelation as beasts.

1. Babylon;

2. Medo-Persia,

3. Greece,

4. Rome,

5. The sea beast (Rev 13)
6. The beast from the bottomless pit (Rev 11);
7. The two horned beast (Rev 13).

Note: The two horned beast is distinct from the seven headed beast in Rev 13 but it makes an image of the beast’s Papal phase.

The heads are successive as indicated by the term “five have fallen, one is, the other is yet to come. (Revelation 17:10).
In other words, John in vision is seeing this beast from a particular point in time, that is during the time of the 6th head.
Each beast succeeded the one previous. Medo/Persia overcame Babylon, Greece overcame Medo/Persia, Rome overcame Greece, and papal Rome took over from pagan Rome. Before we focus on the 6th head, we shall see in detail how the 5th head, papal Rome, received its deadly wound. So as each successive head rules, that head becomes the 'beast'.
The wounding of the head is said to be the wounding of the beast. Compare v 3 with v 12.

In the 1790s atheism became the official policy of the French Republic as a reaction to an apostate & oppressive Christianity. In 1798 the French army under Napoleon abolished the Papal state which it considered an enemy of the Republic. The Pope was led into captivity where he died. As Rome had done to thousands in the Dark Ages so it was done to her.
Rev.13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast....10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.




“[General] Berthier entered Rome on 10th February 1798, and proclaimed a Republic. The aged Pontiff...was hurried from prison to prison into France. Broken with fatigue and sorrows, he died...No wonder that half Europe thought Napoleon’s veto would be obeyed, and that with the Pope THE PAPACY WAS DEAD.”

Joseph Rickaby, The Modern Papacy, [lecture 24, p. 1] (London: Catholic Truth Society, 1910).



“The ultimate humiliation of the Church came when Pius VI was driven from Rome by the French armies in 1798.”

Encyclopedia Britannica, 1989, Vol. 26, p938.



“The Papacy WAS EXTINCT; not a vetige of its existence remained; and among all the Roman Catholic powers not a finger was stirred in its defence. The Eternal city had neither prince nor pontiff; its bishop was dying captive in foreign lands; and the decree was already announced that no successor would be allowed in its place.”

George Trevor, Rome: From the Fall of the Western Empire, p439-440.



“Multitudes imagined that the papacy was at the point of DEATH and asked, would Pius VI be the last Pontiff, and if the close of the eighteenth century would be signalized by THE FALL OF THE PAPAL DYNASTY.” T.H. Gill, The Papal Drama, Book 10.



Dan 11:40 & Rev 11 revealed that a new Satanic power was to rise at the time of the end. The atheistic State gave the Papacy a deadly wound but the prophecy foretold that the wound would heal. The year 1798 is significant, for it is precisely 1260 years after the establishment of the papacy in 538 ad, when the last of the 3 horns, the Ostrogoths, were finally ousted from Rome giving the popes autonomy for the first time. It is from the late 18th century that atheism became the 6th head, and it is during the reign of this head that John is given his vision. Five are fallen, (Babylon, Medo/Persia,Greece, pagan Rome, papal Rome) one is (atheism) and one is yet to come. (The second beast of Revelation 13.)



During the 1260 days (years) the two witnesses - the Old and New Testaments, were cast down, by the Papal power (Dan 8:13). During the greater part of this period the Old and New Testaments prophesied in sackcloth - a state of mourning. The Papacy did all it could to hide the Scriptures from the people. Many lost their lives for the crime of possessing a Bible. The knowledge of God’s word was almost totally blotted from the earth.

Yet God had promised that at the close of the 42 months (1260 years) around 1798, knowledge of God’s word would be increased (Dan 12:4-7), and that the way would be prepared for the final Reformation. Satan, seeing that this was about to be fulfilled increased his efforts to destroy the Word. Satan had worked through the Papacy for centuries to make war on God’s truth but here is brought to view a new manifestation of Satanic power. Papal Rome had kept the Bible from the people on pretence of reverence but this new power would make open war on the Word of God. This war upon God’s Word would occur in a place with the spirit of immoral Sodom and the God defying spirit of Egypt. Pharaoh openly denied the existence of the living God saying, “Who is Jehovah that I should obey his voice?” Exo 5:2.



Accordingly, some power would arise around 1798 to make open war on the Bible. It was to be a power that denied the existence of God- an Atheistic power, and a place of immorality. This was fulfilled in France during the French Revolution. During the Revolution, in 1793, “the world for the first time heard an assembly of men, born and educated in civilization, and assuming the right to govern one of the finest of the European nations, uplift their united voice to deny the most solemn truth which man’s soul receives, and RENOUNCE UNANIMOUSLY THE BELIEF AND WORSHIP OF DEITY.” Sir Walter Scott, Life of Napoleon, Vol. I, ch. 17. The Bible was banned, fornication was legalized, and France plunged into the most licentious and bloody nature ever witnessed in Europe.

All this took place, “where also our Lord was crucified.” Of all nations France had been foremost to assist the Papacy to persecute, torture and massacre the saints. (For example St. Bartholemews massacre). The Huguenots, protestants and Calvinists for the most part, comprised the elite of French culture. It was during the reign of terror in particular that these Godly men and women were persecuted, many of which fled to other countries such as Britain, changed their names and were able to lead normal lives under a new identity, this author being descended from such.
It was in France that Christ was crucified in the person of His saints. “...in the scenes of the Revolution Jesus Christ was declared to be an impostor, and the rallying cry of the French infidels was, “Crush the Wretch,” meaning Christ. Heaven-daring blasphemy and abominable wickedness went hand in hand, and the basest of men, the most abandoned monsters of cruelty and vice, were most highly exalted. In all this, supreme homage was paid to Satan; while Christ, in His characteristics of truth, purity, and unselfish love, was crucified.” GC, p273.

France also rejected the light of the Reformation and in doing so they crucified Christ:

“For it is impossible for those who were once ENLIGHTENED… And have tasted the good word of God… If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD afresh, and put him to an open shame.” Heb 6:4-6.

The rise of Atheism in France was the fruit produced by years of Papal rule. In crushing out the light of the Reformation France destroyed progress, liberty, learning and the best of the nation’s intelligence. It was Papalism which produced the social ills that hurried France onto ruin. Some historians rightly recognize that the excesses of the Revolution are to be charged upon the Church of Rome. It’s corrupting influence made Revolution inevitable. Rome had misrepresented God and as a result Revolutionary France rejected both the Bible and it’s Author. Men like Voltaire spread their infidelity everywhere. The masses, long downtrodden by a corrupt church turned upon their oppressor with fury. The guillotine was set up on he very spot where Rome had set up the first stake at the opening of the Reformation. In rejecting Romanism as a deception, the people were led by Satan to regard all religion as a deception.

The War against the Bible began what is known as the “Reign of Terror” Unhappy France was swept by a tide of fierce human passion. No one was safe. The streets in Paris flowed with blood. The Revelator describing this upheaval says: “The same hour was there a great earthquake.” France, one tenth part of that great city Babylon, was shaken as religion, law, social order, the state, and the church were all overthrown.

“And after three days and a half the Spirit of God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet.” In 1793 the Bible had been abolished by the French Assembly. Three and a half years later, in 1797, another resolution was passed rescinding the former decree, granting toleration to the Scriptures.

The French Revolution was a turning point in history. It was the birthplace of atheistic, materialistic communism. “The COMMUNIST movement would never have taken form as it did except for the prior occurrence of the FRENCH REVOLUTION.” Palmer, Revolution, p11-12.



“The connection between the absolutist REVOLUTION OF THE EIGHTEENTH CENTURY and the MARXIST MOVEMENT of the next century presses for recognition... [It] is THE DIRECT OFFSPRING and heir...A RELIGION OF ATHEISM… coupling scientific ideas with the greatest political hopes that man has ever entertained, the absolute hopes that animated the FRENCH REVOLUTION.” The Dignity of Man, R. W. Davenport, p163-9.



The atheistic beast (nation) from the bottomless pit is alive today in the Communist State and its influence is felt in evolutionary theory and humanistic materialistic thinking everywhere. As surely as corrupt Christianity bred Atheism so Atheism will breed corrupt Christianity. Politically active Christianity will rise to power again and all the world will be led to wonder after the beast.



“And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither.” These words describe he exaltation of the Scriptures that followed the French Revolution. Shortly after the Revolution the Bible societies were established and the Word of God has risen to new heights of distribution. This to make possible the final proclamation of the truth to all the world before the Lord’s return.


We are now witnessing the decline of atheistic communism, and it is fascinating that its decline is being principally established by a revived papacy whose wound is healing in conjunction with the 7th head, the second beast of Rev. 13, the United States. More on that later.


Soon after the humiliation of 1798 the Papacy began to reorganize. A new Pope was elected in 1801 and the restoration to power began. The Papacy suffered a new setback in 1870 when the Papal States were taken from it. In 1929 Italy helped the healing process by returning to the Papacy, the Papal States:



“A crowd, tense with excitement, is here to witness the passage of these two men [Mussolini and Cardinal Gaspari] whose pens will HEAL A WOUND of fifty nine years.” Catholic Advocate, 1929.



“HEALING THE WOUND”

The San Francisco Chronicle. Feb. 12, 1929.



The healing will be complete when the Papacy once again has the power of the State to enforce its decrees.

 

[B-A-C]

We have looked at the composition aspect of the beast, now I would like to discuss things in a little more detail. Remember, the precedent has already been established throughout all previous prophecies that beasts are political institutions, nations, empires.(Dan 7:23; 8:21-22) They are not individual people. Please, let us not change what has already been established by God Himself. This beast is no exception. The composite nature of the beast confirms this, in that the individual composites are themselves nations, or kingdoms.
It is a political/religious or church/state union that the scripture clearly states lives for 1260 prophetic years. At the end of that period it receives a deadly head wound. It is those heads, and the wound to one of them and its resurrection, that I will now discuss.

Many scholar have also taken the 1260 to mean the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation. The tribulation lassts for 7 years, it is divided into the "regular" tribulation, and then the "great" tribulation. Each one lasting 3 1/2 years. (Daniel 12:11-12) The the time, times, and a half time is generally taken to be 3 and half years also (Daniel 12:7)
(Revelation 11:3)

The kingdoms of Daniel 7...
7:4 a lion - the largest and most powerful nation in Danirels time was Babylon under Belshazzar, was used the symbol of the lion. Jer 4:7, 13)
7:5 rsembling a bear - a symbol of the Medo/Persian empire (Isa 13:17, 18) (Dan 8:30) The 3 ribs may represent 3 major conquests of the period, Lydia in 546 BC, Babylon in 539 BC and Egypt in 525 BC.
7:6 a leopard - the symbol of the greek empire under Alexander the Great. The 4 heads were possibly Asia minor, Syria, Egpt and Macedonia.

While these were all kingdoms, they were all under a specific king or person. (Rev 13:2)

I have seen commentaries such as this before, the main problem with the beast being the pope or Rome is that if the Harlot is Rome (i.e. the Vatican) then the beast will be fighting against her. If you are saying the Harlot is Rome, then why would they fight themselves.

Rev 17:16 "And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

So we have the beast fighting the false church. I suspect this will give him credibility to a great number of people.

We see something of a description of the final beast in Daniel 8:23-25

In Daniel 11:2 it specifically mentions the kings themselves rather than the kingdoms. In 11:3 it talks about another "mighty king". (Likely Alexander)
11:5 - the King of the south. (Ptolemy)

Daniel 11 is an amazing chapter of the Bible, it talks about someone named Antiochus Epiphanes, (verses 21-35) probably the most evil human that ever lived.

It talks about the abomination of desolation here (verse 31).

We then see the anti-Christ again in Daniel 11:36-45. He will possibly use Palestine as a base of operations for a while (Daniel 11:41)

.. interesting stuff.

 

[brakelite]

Hi BAC. You said: I have seen commentaries such as this before, the main problem with the beast being the pope or Rome is that if the Harlot is Rome (i.e. the Vatican) then the beast will be fighting against her. If you are saying the Harlot is Rome, then why would they fight themselves.

Rev 17:16 "And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

Not sure what translation you are using here, but I think the King James is clearer, which says: Rev.17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the *****, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.It is the ten horns only that hate the *****; they are separate entities from the beast itself, and are one aspect of the prophecy which is still future. I have seen evidence that it is the plan of the future New World Order, the head of which I am convinced will be the pope, to divide the world into 10 distinct districts. I do believe that there are current rumours flying about with regards to a union of Canada, the US and Mexico,am I right? That was one of the divisions I saw. Others that I can remember were Sth America, Europe, Africa, a couple in Asia etc. Interestingly little ole NZ way down here in the south Pacific was joined to Israel!!! Couldn't quite work that one out.

I believe the ***** and the beast of Rev 13:1 are not quite the same. Let me explain. The beast is a composite as I described of the 4 kingdoms or empires before it. It is Satan's creation to destroy or deceive God's people. The beast is what the papacy is now as we witness her in our time. The ***** however, Babylon the Great, is still future, although I would not claim to know at what time the transition takes place. It could have already taken place, who knows? What I think though is that she is the advanced stage and the very final development of the enemy of God's people, the final culmination of Satan's apostate power. Babylon the Great, with 'confusion' being the key meaning of Babylon, is the papacy with all the protestant daughters returned home.
She is described as the mother of harlots. Her daughters, the protestant churches that arose during the reformation, were not in the beginning harlots. They were faithful to Jesus and grew in faith and truth. However, what do we witness today? Anglicans (Episcopalian to you), Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and others all beginning to compromise the foundations of faith and truth upon which they were founded and which cost the blood of millions, by surrendering their honour and integrity to traipse back to Rome in droves. The agreement in 1995 between Evangelicals and Catholics was further evidence of the now rapidly forming Mother of Harlots. Harlots now because they are turning away from Jesus and embracing the Antichrist.
Therefore the enmity the Bible speaks of in the future between the 10 horns and the ***** is payback. Finally, after 1500 years of deceit and false teachings, the world will realise its error, will turn on Rome and destroy her.
Notice that in Rev.17:3 the ***** is riding on the very same beast seen in Rev.12:3. This is a clone of Satan himself. The political world is now fully his. And he uses that power to support the woman, while the woman, his religious masterpiece, guides and holds the reigns. The perfect pagan union of church and state.Together they rule the world, and the only opposition they have is the remnant people of God whose work it is to call what remains of God's people out of Babylon before it is too late. God still has people in Babylon. They are His because they are living in full accord to what light they have as truth. The time is coming soon however when the final outpouring of the Holy Spirit will, like what took place 2000 years ago at Pentecost, draw 1000s of faithful people out of error and into the light of God's truth; then shall the end come.
Your futurist perspective on the tribulation I cannot agree with. Perhaps in another thread sometime we might discuss that. The day/year principle, and associated topics.

 

[brakelite]

Papal Global ambitions.

In the 1970s Jesuit priest and Vatican insider Malachi Martin wrote an eye-opening expose of Vatican ambitions to regain her lost ascendancy in world affairs, with the fullest intention to have dominion over the whole world. This at first may seem a far fetched idea, but Martin clearly revealed that at the time of writing, there was a three way battle for that dominion. Communism, western capitalism, and Rome. The secret co-operation between Reagan and the pope in the 1980s saw the determined support of the solidarity movement in Poland, which triggered the downfall of the Soviet Union. That left but two players.

Two years ago Benedict continued the work of his predecessor and issued an encyclical entitled "Caritas in Veritas". In this rather long but lucidly and eloquently written message, Benedict made it abundantly clear that the only solution to the world's many problems (and he wrote quite extensively on each one) was the injection of a Christian component into a global governmental authority. This encyclical was released just days prior to the G8 summit in that year, and was read and discussed at the meetings by every politician present, and was accepted favourably, as it has been in many countries since.

Prior to that and since, intense personal lobbying all round the world, but particularly in Europe, has gained many supporters for his programme, and his influence has brought about a strengthening of Sunday laws in Croatia, Germany, and in the EU itself.

Now, just recently, the following:Vatican Calls For New World Economic Order | Fox News

Christian morals and virtues injected into politics can be a good thing. But whose? For along with Benedict XV1's ideas, you get him as a package deal. And his doctrines and dogmas which include little or no tolerance for dissenters. My friends, the scenario that Revelation 13 has painted is drawing nearer.

 

[B-A-C]

The beast is the leader of the 10 kingdoms.

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 13:1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

The beast will be the leader of the 10 kingdoms

This is mentioned again in...

Rev 13:3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

Rev 17:7 And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

It is obviously the beast that is the leader of the horns and heads.
It is also obviously these are the same beast, but even if it wasn't (for sake of argument lets say there were 2 beasts) one of them would still be warring against "the harlot of babylon".

As for who the 10-horns (kingdoms?) are.. I have heard many opinions on this also. The European Union, The 6 "continental" kingdoms (It is doubtful Antartica would be included)
plus 4 other "sub-kingdoms". I've not really sure, but I think the Bible is clear that the beast will be the leader of these kingdoms wherever they are.

As for the "one world church religion", yes I think you are right, it is already starting, many will be lead astray. But I doubt it will be the Roman Catholic church.

 

[RJ]

Every reformer, from the 12th to the 18th century, from Wycliffe to Luther, from Calvin to Cranmer, and dozens in between, pointed their collective fingers at Rome and proclaimed the Roman papacy as the Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Were they right? Judging by today's views, the reformation was a major mistake, and the reformers all religious radicals deceived and influenced by the times in which they lived. If they were right, then why do so few proclaim it today? If however they were wrong, then why don't we all forsake the title "protestant" (who's protesting today anyway?) and return to Rome?

No offense but I wish, with what I see as so often done at TJ, I wish you wouldn't make such bold statements (red above) with out providing support.

I politely disagree with your statement. Because of the likes Luther, there many Reformed Churches of today that stand firm on the reformation.

 

[brakelite]

No offense but I wish, with what I see as so often done at TJ, I wish you wouldn't make such bold statements (red above) with out providing support.

I politely disagree with your statement. Because of the likes Luther, there many Reformed Churches of today that stand firm on the reformation.

Of course there are many churches that still stand by the reformation ideals. But the trend in Protestant circles is toward Rome: no longer is the RCC the antichrist as once taught by every reformer throughout the last 400 years. To teach such today is too embarrasing for many, and too politically incorrect.

Below are but 3 examples of Protestants who no longer uphold reformed theology.
Minnesota bishops Catholic, Lutheran share common ground | StarTribune.com
Evangelicals and Catholics Together - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
U.S. Anglicans converting en masse to catholicism | Mail Online

I could extend this list many times over. Ecumenism is very much alive and well. And the only conclusion one can draw form its success is that those Protestants who are emigrating to Catholicism no longer believe that the reformation was justifiable, but rather an historical aberration.

 

[Fellowservant]

Every reformer, from the 12th to the 18th century, from Wycliffe to Luther, from Calvin to Cranmer, and dozens in between, pointed their collective fingers at Rome and proclaimed the Roman papacy as the Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Were they right? Judging by today's views, the reformation was a major mistake, and the reformers all religious radicals deceived and influenced by the times in which they lived. If they were right, then why do so few proclaim it today? If however they were wrong, then why don't we all forsake the title "protestant" (who's protesting today anyway?) and return to Rome?

I think the early reformers got the Catholic Antichrist thing wrong. Luther was concerned about its false teachings, so he tried to reform it.

I think that some reformers not all, were using prophecy from the book of revelation and pointing it at the Catholic church. I think this is a bad idea, as prophecy is not always what it seems or is word for word...

Mystery Babylon has given many a man a wrong interpretation of it, If you read revelation it describes a woman with a golden cup in her hand, and i think some reformers used this prophecy because the RCC uses one in the mass. But im not sure if this was the case... Never take coincidences, and make them prophetic...

That golden cup can be found in the old testament prophets, and i don't see its meaning pointing to the RCC.... It again is referring to Babylon the land of the Chaldean's

Another thing about this, and reformers getting prophecy wrong, or saying this is that, and this is this. Is that the scriptures were hid from almost every one, until they were translated into a common language. So even the reformers were still learning... Daniel says that knowledge will increase in the end times.

But thanks to reformers now we can read and learn for ourselves and not just follow men all over the place. So that was the best thing the reformers did.

They helped give the Bible to the common man, so he could read it for himself. One disadvantage was that anyone could come to a conclusion of Bible interpretation and run with it. I think some of the reformers should have read Daniel, and not just the book of revelation:shade:

The book of Daniel gives us a glimpse of who or what the real antichrist will be or do. And it doesn't look like the Catholic church to me. Although she may play a part in it...

The Antichrist according to Daniel will exalt himself above every God Daniel calls it a strange God, a God of forces that nether he nor his fathers knew or worshiped.....

So its plain to see he will not have anything to do with known Gods, but will exalt himself above every other God that is known, and proclaim himself God... The Pope would have to leave the RCC in order to be the Antichrist of scripture. Or do a 180 with his faith...

Former Catholic here, now a Reformer...Go back to Rome? nah its to far from where i am now


God bless

 

[brakelite]

I think the early reformers got the Catholic Antichrist thing wrong. Luther was concerned about its false teachings, so he tried to reform it.

I think that some reformers not all, were using prophecy from the book of revelation and pointing it at the Catholic church. I think this is a bad idea, as prophecy is not always what it seems or is word for word...

Mystery Babylon has given many a man a wrong interpretation of it, If you read revelation it describes a woman with a golden cup in her hand, and i think some reformers used this prophecy because the RCC uses one in the mass. But im not sure if this was the case... Never take coincidences, and make them prophetic...

That golden cup can be found in the old testament prophets, and i don't see its meaning pointing to the RCC.... It again is referring to Babylon the land of the Chaldean's

Another thing about this, and reformers getting prophecy wrong, or saying this is that, and this is this. Is that the scriptures were hid from almost every one, until they were translated into a common language. So even the reformers were still learning... Daniel says that knowledge will increase in the end times.

But thanks to reformers now we can read and learn for ourselves and not just follow men all over the place. So that was the best thing the reformers did.

They helped give the Bible to the common man, so he could read it for himself. One disadvantage was that anyone could come to a conclusion of Bible interpretation and run with it. I think some of the reformers should have read Daniel, and not just the book of revelation:shade:

The book of Daniel gives us a glimpse of who or what the real antichrist will be or do. And it doesn't look like the Catholic church to me. Although she may play a part in it...

The Antichrist according to Daniel will exalt himself above every God Daniel calls it a strange God, a God of forces that nether he nor his fathers knew or worshiped.....

So its plain to see he will not have anything to do with known Gods, but will exalt himself above every other God that is known, and proclaim himself God... The Pope would have to leave the RCC in order to be the Antichrist of scripture. Or do a 180 with his faith...

Former Catholic here, now a Reformer...Go back to Rome? nah its to far from where i am now


God bless

I appreciate there is a lot of reading, but further on in the thread I have explained why the reformers thought the way they did, (and it wasn't just the early reformers) : they did use Daniel, comparing Daniel with Revelation, and founmd they were speaking of the same entity. I have listed a number of characteristics of the antichriost, and compared them with the papacy. As I continue the study of Revelation 13, more comparisons will be made and further confirmation that the reformers were right. Read through the thread where I have dealt with the prophecies in detail and come back to me with your thoughts. Cheers.
(Also from an ex Catholic)

 

[B-A-C]

Of course there are many churches that still stand by the reformation ideals. But the trend in Protestant circles is toward Rome: no longer is the RCC the antichrist as once taught by every reformer throughout the last 400 years. To teach such today is too embarrasing for many, and too politically incorrect.

Below are but 3 examples of Protestants who no longer uphold reformed theology.
Minnesota bishops Catholic, Lutheran share common ground | StarTribune.com
Evangelicals and Catholics Together - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
U.S. Anglicans converting en masse to catholicism | Mail Online

I could extend this list many times over. Ecumenism is very much alive and well. And the only conclusion one can draw form its success is that those Protestants who are emigrating to Catholicism no longer believe that the reformation was justifiable, but rather an historical aberration.

I haven't ever seen very many articles claiming that the Pope is the anti-christ. Anti-biblical? yes, but none claiming he is the anti-christ by anyone reputable. Most modern day scholars (Rick Warren, John Piper, John McArthur, Charles Stanley, Billy Graham, Max Lucado, A.W. Tozer) believe that the beast is a separate entity from the "harlot of babylon". Some believe the harlot to be the RC church, others do not.

What I find more than a little amazing here is... you claim that the beast and the RC church are the same entity (wouldn't that make the Roman Catholic church the anti-christ?), and then you encourage us all to join that church!!

Evangelical Lutheran have gotten closer and closer to traditional Catholic trends over the last few years (keep in mind they also accept gay clergy which hurts their credibility even with many in the RC church). The Missouri Synod Lutherans on the other hand have been moving further and further away. The only people who call Anglicans (Episcoplians, Church of England, etc..) protestants are they themselves. Other than following the Pope, they agree with every other Roman Catholic doctrine. I would hardly call them protestant, in other words.. they would disagree with 94 of Luther's 95 thesis.

Of course the Catholic church wants everyone else to follow, what church doesn't? A major difference is that Baptists don't believe you have to belong to the Baptist church to be saved, Pentecostals doesn't either, Methodists don't either, Church of Christ doesn't either, Presbyterians don't either... (why do you think there so many "non-denominational" protestant churches?)... but Roman Catholics believe you have to belong to the RC church to be saved.

 

[brakelite]

I haven't ever seen very many articles claiming that the Pope is the anti-christ. Anti-biblical? yes, but none claiming he is the anti-christ by anyone reputable. Most modern day scholars (Rick Warren, John Piper, John McArthur, Charles Stanley, Billy Graham, Max Lucado, A.W. Tozer) believe that the beast is a separate entity from the "harlot of babylon". Some believe the harlot to be the RC church, others do not.

Exactly my point BAC. Protestants no longer teach what the reformers taught at the cost of their lives. Modern Christian ministers have been duped by the counter-reformation. They have been sucked in to accepting futurism which theory was ivented by Jesuits to counter the accusing fingers of the reformers. And the modern church has taken to futurism hook line sinker and boat at the cost of Biblical truth.

What I find more than a little amazing here is... you claim that the beast and the RC church are the same entity (wouldn't that make the Roman Catholic church the anti-christ?), and then you encourage us all to join that church!!

Of course I have been claiming the church is the Antichrist...that has been the thrust of the entire thread, with screeds of Biblical and historical evidence to support it. But where on earth do you get the idea that joining Rome is my recommendation? My message is Revelation 18:4. "Come out of her My people".