Were they right?

[Christ4Ever]

Modern Christian ministers have been duped by the counter-reformation. They have been sucked in to accepting futurism which theory was ivented by Jesuits to counter the accusing fingers of the reformers. And the modern church has taken to futurism hook line sinker and boat at the cost of Biblical truth.

You'll also find the writings of Catholic Mystics St. John of the Cross, and St. Teresa of Avila major players in the Counter-Reformation is becoming more prevalent in many of the Protestant Churches through their use of Emergent/Spiritual Formation and other similar theologies.

Awesome study brother, keep it up.
Still praying for you brother!
As always YBIC
C4E

 

[brakelite]

You'll also find the writings of Catholic Mystics St. John of the Cross, and St. Teresa of Avila major players in the Counter-Reformation is becoming more prevalent in many of the Protestant Churches through their use of Emergent/Spiritual Formation and other similar theologies.

Awesome study brother, keep it up.
Still praying for you brother!
As always YBIC
C4E

Hey. I have no idea who they are, but nothing surprises me. I have read some harrowing accounts of Jesuit influence in world affairs, ranging from the assasination of Abraham Lincoln to the establishment of the fed bank, and also Jesuit infiltration into Protestant seminaries in order to inject doubt in God's word and exalt Catholic tradition/charismatic 'renewal'/papal authority. They are the Vatican SS troops, created with the express purpose to undermine and overthrow Protestantism. Interestingly, Hitler styled his own SS after them.
Thanks for the encouragement, chuffed you are enjoying the thread. God bless.

 

[brakelite]

I think it is time to resurrect this thread, and continue with the prophetic evidence that inspired the reformers of all ages to identify the Roman Catholic Church as the Antichrist of scripture.
I have previously gone to some length to describe and explain the many characteristics of several passages which collectively give us an amazingly detailed description of the antichrist. The 'little horn' of Daniel 7, the 'man of sin' and 'son of perdition' from Paul's epistles, and I had begun to write on the composite beast of Revelation 13. I would like now to turn once again to that beast, and focus on those individual characteristics which describe the nature of said beast, and how they apply to the papacy. Remember, I said very near to the beginning of this thread, that if the papacy or the RCC doesn't meet every single even minor detail of every characteristic, then it is proof that she cannot be the Antichrist. If however it can be proved that she meets every criteria without fail, then it would be more than dishonest, even suicidal, to look elsewhere for an answer to the OPs question, "were they right?"

Following is a summary of those characteristics drawn from Revelation 13:1-10, and Revel. 13:16-18.

1. Rises from the sea. Remember that we are speaking symbolically here. And because we are not to privately interpret scripture, we must go elsewhere in scripture to decipher the meaning of the symbols. The Bible interprets itself.
In Revel. 17:15 we read that the sea represents people, multitudes, nations, and tongues. Thus this beast arises in a populous area, in the midst of the then known established nations. The papacy indeed did arise in such a place, in fact right at the heart of the Roman Empire, in its capital city.

2. It is a composite beast of 4 previously established kingdoms. We read of these kingdoms in :
Kingdom...........Daniel 7:4-7................Revel. 13:1,2
Babylon....................Lion...................mouth of a lion.
Media/Persia..............Bear...................feet of bear
Greece....................Leopard...............'like unto a leopard'
Rome......................Ten horns ............ten horns

The RCC has inherited and incorporated many of the pagan beliefs of these former world empires into her doctrines and dogmas and religious practice. Clothing them in spiritual clothing, 'baptising' them, and passing them off as Christian. Many can be traced to ancient Babylon even from the time of Nimrod, a grandchild of Noah. These pagan practices were handed down from generation to generation, from culture to culture, until today where they have reached their full maturity and accepted now as 'Biblical' truth.

3. Dragon gave him his power, his seat, and great authority. The dragon is a representation of Satan. (Revel.12:9) and also of the power through whom he worked. In Revel. 12:3,4 the dragon is presented to us as waiting before the Messiah in order to kill him as soon as He was born. Pagan Rome in the form of King Herod did just that, thus the dragon here represents pagan Rome also. It was the Roman emperors who gave the bishops of Rome their authority to rule as secular rulers in Rome in their absence. It was pagan Rome that gave the papacy her power, her seat, and great authority.

4. Would receive a deadly wound. The deadly wound was received when the head of the church Pope Pius V1 was taken captive in 1798 by General Berthier of Napoleons Revolutionary army. Pius was exiled in France where he died 2 years later. Berthier disbanded the college of cardinals, confiscated the papal states, and a law passed that never again was pope to be enthroned in Rome. Rome was declared a republic, and the church lost her civil authority. Her status as a church/state union came to an end. Many political and religious leaders worldwide thought the papacy was done and dusted. For all intents and purposes, the papacy, at least the one the world had become accustomed to, had ceased to exist.

5. The deadly wound however would be healed. Mussolini, the president of Italy, in 1929 returned to the Catholic Church her civil rule when the Vatican city was declared an independent state.

6. The whole world would wonder after the beast. That the world today pays great homage to Rome cannot be denied by anyone familiar with current affairs. Political leaders from all over the world now gather at the doors of the Vatican waiting to kiss the ring of the current pope, thus symbolising their recognition of his authority.

7.This beast would become a powerful and influential political identity.
(Revel. 13:3,7)

8. It would be a powerful and influential religious identity. (Revel. 13:3,8)

The above two need no further explanation.

The following 3 characteristics are identical to what we have previously studied when dealing with Daniel 7 and I will not repeat the details here. See http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-bible-prophecy/38601-were-they-right-6.html#post186632 and http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-bible-prophecy/38601-were-they-right-6.html#post186814

9. Would be guilty of blasphemy.
10.Would make war with and persecute the saints.
11.She would reign for 42 prophetic months (= 1260 years being 538-1798).

12.The final pointer is the number 666. There is so much that could be written, I have decided that it would be easier to refer you to a website that is dedicated to just this topic. Here you will uncover the myths, the legends, and the history, as well as the truth. http://www.666truth.org Happy reading, there's plenty of it, along with videos if you prefer.

God bless.

PS If anyone would like further information or further explanation on any one of the above characteristics or of those dealt with from Daniel, I would be only too happy to furnish such info. I have much at hand, all of which adds much credence and confirmation to what I have presented in this thread, which incidentally is only in summary form.

 

[Fellowservant]

I think it is time to resurrect this thread, and continue with the prophetic evidence that inspired the reformers of all ages to identify the Roman Catholic Church as the Antichrist of scripture.
I have previously gone to some length to describe and explain the many characteristics of several passages which collectively give us an amazingly detailed description of the antichrist. The 'little horn' of Daniel 7, the 'man of sin' and 'son of perdition' from Paul's epistles, and I had begun to write on the composite beast of Revelation 13. I would like now to turn once again to that beast, and focus on those individual characteristics which describe the nature of said beast, and how they apply to the papacy. Remember, I said very near to the beginning of this thread, that if the papacy or the RCC doesn't meet every single even minor detail of every characteristic, then it is proof that she cannot be the Antichrist. If however it can be proved that she meets every criteria without fail, then it would be more than dishonest, even suicidal, to look elsewhere for an answer to the OPs question, "were they right?"

Hi brother brakelite

Well many a man is calling Obama the Antichrist? And some believe it without any proof... I was reading a news article were a man went to the white house and started shooting at it, or something to that effect, because he taught that Obama was the Antichrist.

Now i wonder where, or from whom he got that idea. Its not funny really, Christians who know nothing on the subject will run amok and get someone killed because of the so called evidence, and possible false accusations against a group or person...

Man we need to wait a minute here and stop assuming this guy or that guy, or this church or that church is the Antichrist of scripture. We as Christians need to wait till the time is real... And that time will only come when the prophecy of this Antichrist person is revealed...as Paul mentions in scripture. Its a mystery, and not known at this present time. It must be fulfilled.

There is also a big difference between heresy in a church, and the Antichrist of scripture.

God bless

 

[Christ4Ever]

As always brother Brakelite a joy reading your postings.
Thanks again for continuing on this subject.
YBIC
C4E

 

[JudgeDan]

The True Gospel That Jesus Taught --- Its' --- NOT WHAT

Every reformer, from the 12th to the 18th century, from Wycliffe to Luther, from Calvin to Cranmer, and dozens in between, pointed their collective fingers at Rome and proclaimed the Roman papacy as the Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Were they right? Judging by today's views, the reformation was a major mistake, and the reformers all religious radicals deceived and influenced by the times in which they lived. If they were right, then why do so few proclaim it today? If however they were wrong, then why don't we all forsake the title "protestant" (who's protesting today anyway?) and return to Rome?

The True Gospel That Jesus Taught --- Its' --- NOT WHAT RELIGION YOU ARE

Brothers/Sisters,Awake, O sleeper, and rise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light!

Jesus taught the True Gospel, which is Class, not Christian or Non-Christian God choose whom he wants to, He (God) has Chosen the Poor People --- James 2:5.
Please teach what Our LORD taught. Poor/Rich, Wheat/Weeds, Good News for the Poor People, BadNews for the Rich People.

This is a chapter from that "Little Book" of Revelation chapter 10.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

ON PREDESTINATION



Surely the poor people are chosen alone, and not another group with them, as the Scripture says, “Blessed are the poor people, because the Kingdom of God belongs to you” (Luke 6:20) and (in the Greek), “Blessed by the Spirit are the poor people, because the Kingdom of the Heavens belongs to them” (Matthew 5:3); but to the rich Christ says, “But woe to you who are rich, because you have received your consolation” (Luke 6:24) and, “How hard is it for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God? It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God!” (Luke 18:24-25).

There is after all no free will, but only predestination, as the Scripture says, “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His own purpose” (Philippians 2:13) and, “Therefore He has mercy on who He wants to have mercy, and who He wants to He hardens” (Romans 9:18). Thus we see that faith in God and all good traits — which is the substance of conformity to the image of Christ — derive from the condition of poverty; and rebellion against God and all evil traits — which is the substance of conformity to the image of the devil — derive from the condition of wealth; and so the Scripture says, “Hasn’t God chosen the poor people out of the world, those being rich in faith and so heirs of the Kingdom that He has promised for the ones who love Him? But you have despised the poor people! Don’t the rich oppress you? And they drag you into the courts. Don’t they blaspheme the good Name that is called on you?” (James 2:5-7). And again, “They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave. Therefore they say to God, ‘Depart from us, for we desire not the knowledge of Your ways’ ” (Job <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:time Minute="13" Hour="21">21:13</st1:time>-14). There are therefore in terms of truth only two nations upon the earth and not many, those being the nation of the poor people scattered throughout the world in all societies — all poor people of all societies being identical to one another in heart immediately below the level of words and so forming in truth one nation — who are the children of the Kingdom; and the nation of the wealthy people likewise scattered throughout the world in all societies, who are the children of the evil one. And surely the heart of the prostitute is purer than the heart of the chief priest and the elder. And so the rich man who was with Lazarus during this life was told, “You during your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus his bad things; but now he is comforted here while you are tormented” (Luke <st1:time Minute="25" Hour="16">16:25</st1:time>).

To the rich God says, “Go and sell whatever you have and give it away to the poor people, and you will have treasure in Heaven, and come, follow me” (Luke <st1:time Minute="22" Hour="18">18:22</st1:time>). But the rich, being atheists and blasphemers against the good Name of God that is called on the poor people, hearing about “treasure in Heaven” only laugh in their hearts and reject the path of salvation that God has ordained for them.

And do you know of even one of them who has ever obeyed it for ages past?

Then God waits for their death.
Then He throws them down to Hell.
Then He says to them, “This is the fire that you mocked at!”

And so He has mercy on who He wants to have mercy — and who He wants to He hardens.

— Barry <st1lace>I.</st1lace> Hyman

CHRISTIAN REVOLUATIONARY BROTHERHOOD​

<o>Peace Be With You All</o>
<o>JudgeDan </o>

 

[chris meads]

I believe it to be that they were right in there time, for things in this world happen in forshadows of things comeing. and also I believe spiritual dominions move with the people who wil submitt to there dominions of lies. Such as the spirit of babylon still exsists today but the acual city of bablon doesn't. The war were in is over souls and dominions. For jesus said the words he spoke were not words but spirit and life, and the enimy comes to steal kill and destroy by distorting truth. Have you fallen for the canal gospel of finatial prosperity and not spiritual prosperity?

 

[brakelite]

Hi brother brakelite

Well many a man is calling Obama the Antichrist? And some believe it without any proof... I was reading a news article were a man went to the white house and started shooting at it, or something to that effect, because he taught that Obama was the Antichrist.

Now i wonder where, or from whom he got that idea. Its not funny really, Christians who know nothing on the subject will run amok and get someone killed because of the so called evidence, and possible false accusations against a group or person...

Man we need to wait a minute here and stop assuming this guy or that guy, or this church or that church is the Antichrist of scripture. We as Christians need to wait till the time is real... And that time will only come when the prophecy of this Antichrist person is revealed...as Paul mentions in scripture. Its a mystery, and not known at this present time. It must be fulfilled.

There is also a big difference between heresy in a church, and the Antichrist of scripture.

God bless

Hello fellowservant. Have you read through the entire thread? I see from your response that you are of the futurist camp, and that along with the majority of Christendom, are still awaiting the appearance of the Antichrist. I agree with you that blind finger pointing and unfounded accusations are deceptive, a waste of time, and worse, dangerous. (Although the truth in this case is even more dangerous as the reformers discovered.)

Thus with that in mind I was careful to begin the thread on the sure foundation of history. Firmly establishing the fact that all the reformers and many church leaders from all ages (covering a time span of over 1000 years) were in complete agreement with one another that the papacy was the Antichrist. This fact of history is too big to ignore. The next step in the thread was to establish whether or not their finger pointing had any foundation in scripture. That they lived under the authority of Rome most of their lives and may have had a hand in their decision by way of bias I was willing to concede, thus it was even more important to establish a scriptural basis for their charges.

Beginning with Paul's letter to the Thessalonians regarding the restrainer and that which was restrained, and then progressing through Daniel chapters 2,7,and 8, making careful comparisons between prophecy and history, I focused particularly on the "little horn" which all Bible expositors agree is a symbolic presentation of the Antichrist power. Exploring every detail and characteristic of this little horn, I believe I have made a fairly airtight case, at least as far as Daniel and Paul is concerned, that the Roman Catholic Church meets every criteria.

But that would not be sufficient however to answer the OPs question, "were they right", because there is much more to consider. My next step was dive into the book of Revelation and see if the characteristics of the beast of Rev.13 also pointed to the papacy. I do believe they do. So far I think that this study has established very strongly that indeed the reformers were right all along. I would suggest that anyone disagreeing with my conclusion that they please find any instant where the papacy does not meet the criteria that God Himself has laid before us to consider.

For those who become confused in their understanding of the word, who fail to see the meaning of Antichrist, will surely place themselves on the side of Antichrist. The most dire warning in all the Bible is given to mankind to beware of surrendering to the authority of the Antichrist. (Revel.14:9-11) Revelation 13 reveals to us that the entire last days scenario is centred around worship: and the scriptures tell us that the great majority will be deceived in these last days to worship the Antichrist. It is not the time to trust in sentimentality. Only those firmly established in the scriptures will see the deception. If the scriptures reveal to us who Antichrist is, I believe it would be fatal to turn away from such evidence and rely of the "Left Behind" books and movies for our protection and safety.

 

[Fellowservant]

Hi brother brakelite Well i was just stating my opinion i guess. Every one i think has one...

Anyway we believe differently i guess as to the subject of whether or not the RCC is the Antichrist of scripture. So i guess we will have to agree to disagree for now

But if the Pope starts to shows signs of tyrannic behavior towards God, ill reconsider your view on this...

God bless

 

[brakelite]

Hi brother brakelite Well i was just stating my opinion i guess. Every one i think has one...

Anyway we believe differently i guess as to the subject of whether or not the RCC is the Antichrist of scripture. So i guess we will have to agree to disagree for now

But if the Pope starts to shows signs of tyrannic behavior towards God, ill reconsider your view on this...

God bless

If the pope shows signs of tyrannic behaviour towards God I will reconsider my own views, for that is not what the scriptures tell us to expect from the Antichrist. The prefix 'anti' in the context of antichrist means 'in place of' or 'instead of'. The Antichrist presents himself as a substitute, not a violent opposer. He places himself in the position of God in the minds and hearts of his followers while claiming loyalty to God. That is where the deception lies. If he is to appear on the scene of history as a violent opposer of anything and everything Christian, where is the deception? Who is going to be deceived into becoming a follower of Antichrist under such a scenario? Many might follow him because they would agree with his opposition, but that isn't deception.
Note that Paul describes him as the "son of perdition". The only other personage in the entire scripture so named was Judas. Judas opposed Jesus, but how? By violence as an avowed enemy, or with a kiss as a professed friend? Now it is interesting that Paul is here comparing the character of Antichrist to that of Judas. Judas was a traitor. He was an insider who who professed loyalty to the truth, did all the right religious stuff, hung with the right crowd (for the most part), was utterly sincere in his beliefs, but throughout the whole span of his relationship with the Lord, did not know Him!!! Now the same characteristics are not attributed to the Antichrist in modern thinking, yet this is precisely what Paul was suggesting. Antichrist therefore is a religious, even Christian, entity. One that professes the truth, says all the right things, does a heap of good stuff, gives to the poor etc, but bottom line is it is bereft of truth. It is a counterfiet. Like Judas, looks like, sounds like, the real thing. Deception fellowservant. What Jesus and Paul warned us repeatedly of throughout scripture. Deception. False prophets, false Christs.
Here is a re-print of a post I submitted on the true nature of Antichrist, and how it relates to the papacy.

Before we look at the antichrist, I want to look at the real Christ. Who is He? Let us go to the scriptures to find out what and Who He claimed to be.

Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words. Greater even than the very law of God enshrined within. (Or at least it used to be). Only one person can be greater than any law of God, and that is the lawgiver.

38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted an entire city of the children of Ishmael totaling maybe 60,000 people. Nineveh. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater than Jonah.

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater even than Solomon.

In the three startling claims as shown above, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus. Priest, prophet, and King.


It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti- as in antichrist, according to Strong's concordance, and like other words having the prefix 'anti', means at it's most basic form "in the room of", "instead of", or "in the place of".
In other words, 'antichrist' stands as a substitute. We all know that Satan works by deception. Yet many would claim the 'antichrist' will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this?
In 2 Thess. 2:1 we are told that there was to be a falling away first, which will reveal the antichrist, or as Paul describes him, the man of sin or son of perdition. Now falling away in this instance is a falling into apostasy; divorce.
Any divorce necessitates a prior favourable relationship. The only other example of a 'son of perdition' is Judas Iscariot. Did Judas openly and with force oppose Christ? Did he attack His teachings and disagree with Jesus claims to divinity? Did he argue and debate everything Jesus stood for and seek the destruction of His followers? No. Not by any means. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. He betrayed Him with an act of apparent love, fellowship, and friendship. He undermined and betrayed Jesus at the same time as claiming Him to be his friend!! This squares perfectly with the meaning of antichrist. He is not an opposer, but a subtle imposter. A counterfeit. An imposter of Jesus Christ. A false copy, or forgery of the true.
Antichrist is therefore a person or power who impersonates the offices of Priesthood, the Prophet or spokesmanship, and the Kingly rule of Christ. The office that ministers for God, speaks for God, and rules for God.
Satan has many counterfeits. Now counterfeits are almost identical to the true. You do not get counterfeit 99$ notes. You get counterfeit 100$ notes. And unless you get trained and disciplined to know intimately the true 100$ note, you will not recognise the false. It has been estimated that every person in America who has regularly handled 100$ notes, has had pass through their hands a counterfeit at least 4 times a year! And not known it!!!! Unless you are intimately acquainted with the true Jesus, how will you recognise the counterfeit?
So how does Antichrist counterfeit the threefold ministry of the true Christ, as Priest, Prophet and King? Is there an entity in the world today who claims to do just this? Is there one like Judas who is betraying the Master with a kiss, all the while claiming to be a friend? Is there in the world today a religious system or religious ruler who claims to be the earthly representative of Christ as His priest, claiming to be a mediator between God and man? Claiming to forgive sin even?
Does this entity also claim the prerogatives of a prophet? Does it claim to speak for God in spiritual matters? Does it claim to stand as Gods spokesman on earth and claim that only through it's authority can salvation be found?
And finally, does this entity also claim to be a king? Does it claim authority as a secular power? Does it exercise authority and power within the auspices of a church/state relationship?

I think you all know the answer is yes.There is an entity in the world today who claims all the above Godly prerogatives which belong only to Jesus Christ. Priest, prophet and king.This entity has set itself up as counterfeit and thus can be affirmatively identified as the antichrist, the impostor and impersonator of the true. And this entity can be found in the Roman Catholic church system

 

[David777]

Hello Brakelite.

An excellent presentation of the historical interpretation of the antichrist.

Whether or not the conclusion is correct is another matter.

It is thrilling to see how deep and broad eschatology can be.

It certainly promotes thought and expands the playing field of possibilities.

Thank you for the considerable effort you put in to this study.

 

[DarthTrekkie]

I won't pretend to know a lot about something I don't but I can tell you that even today there are many protestants who feel that the catholic church may be where the antichrist shows up. I suppose that (especialy long ago) if we were to see the church be the political influence it once was AND in combination with holding views which you felt were not in line with the word of God, I could see where that assumption would arise. My opinion (admitedly under educated on the matter) is that the "form of religion" and the faith of the antichrist will be muslim. It kind of just nullifies the diety of Christ and I wonder if the abomination in the temple" is the Dome of the Rock mosque.

 

[brakelite]

The Greatest Publicity Campaign Ever

In the 13th chapter of Rev. we read that the beast that rises from the sea is to be given power over all 'kindreds, tongues and nations' (vs7) and 'that all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb'. (vs8) Later in the same chapter we read of a mark that is enforced world-wide that will identify and unite the beasts followers. And throughout the scriptures we are warned that deception is the devils principle weapon of choice. So the world will be deceived into following this counterfeit. For this to be accomplished successfully we can expect a global advertising campaign promoting this beast as being the saviour this world needs. There is nothing in the scripture to suggect he takes the world by force; the context in fact is more suggestive he will be welcomed with open arms, loved, and admired by all. His presentations will be so powerful and delusive all will be deceived. Only those who are diligent students of the Bible will be shielded from this powerful delusion that takes the world captive. Only those who have received from God a love of truth will recognise the lie. (2 Thess.2:8-10) This isn't the love of a particular truth, but the love of truth as a principle in the life. Today the world is totally confused as to what is truth. Objective absolute truth is seen as being intolerant, close-minded, and narrow. People who claim to iunderstand and stand by truth are seen as bigots and fanatics. But if we are willing to love truth as an abiding principle of life, then God will shield us from the final great deception that will overcome the world.

In Revelation 12:17 we read that Satan is going to make war with the remnant people of God. This is a war of ideas. It is a war between truth and error. It is a war of words. And the battleground is in our minds. It is not upon a plain in the Middle East. It is a battle for our loyalty.

This advertising campaign has already begun, in fact, it began approximately 400 years ago. We refer to it today as the 'counter-reformation'. And it is an ongoing no holds barred battle for the capture of the human mind. The purpose of this adverting campaign was twofold.
1. To directly counter the influence of the reformers preaching of the Biblical directive that the papacy was the Antichrist. Their accusing fingers were to be redirected elsewhere at all costs. ( I will develop this and explain how this has been successfuly done in a post at a later time.)
2. The campaign must be so convincing, so effective, that the whole world must be turned away from Protestantism and return to Rome.

This great PR campaign was escalated in the 1960s with the council 'Vatican II'. It was in 1965 that the Vatican II council made a declaration of religious freedom. This was an astonishing step for the Roman church to make. Considering the fact that for 1500 years she had persecuted dissenters by the millions (up to 150m it is estimated by some) and her avowed intent to destroy protestantism in particular by any means possible, any step toward religious freedom was an about turn of monumental proportions. The question everyone was asking however 'was it genuine'? More recently Pope John Paul said several times that he was a promotor of religious freedom, apologising for his church's judgemental attitude in the past, putting it down to a 'different age and time'.

Prior to Vatican II papal theory and practice had always been, without exception, been adamantly opposed to civil and religious liberty, democracy, and the separation of church and state. In fact, as recently as 1864 the papal 'syllabus of errors' explicitly condemned all these principles, together with the idea that anyone could claim the right to worship according to his conscience as opposed to Roman dogma which directs her adherents to worship only according to the directives of church teaching and tradition.

My next post will focus on some of the historical claims to church supremacy, in the context of some of the aspects and characterisations previously mentioned in prophecy that pertain to Antichrist, and whether Rome's shift can be taken seriously.

The question is, has Rome truly changed? Or is the change simply in our minds....that is in our perceptions as a result of slick advertising?

 

[Christ4Ever]

This isn't the love of a particular truth, but the love of truth as a principle in the life. Today the world is totally confused as to what is truth. Objective absolute truth is seen as being intolerant, close-minded, and narrow. People who claim to iunderstand and stand by truth are seen as bigots and fanatics. But if we are willing to love truth as an abiding principle of life, then God will shield us from the final great deception that will overcome the world.

Could it be said that where you find those who don't acknowledge absolute truth, you will also find individuals who will more readily accept lies within the context of helping, and in so doing become themselves more pliable to accepting deception?

Great post as usual brother.

 

[rodd]

Antichrist, as opposed to Christ, definately YES! Antichrist as in the AC, no! but the false prophet as the head.
Their doctrine is demonic and not the gospel at all.
Both locked away in hell for a thousand years before the eternal lake of fire, partners in crime.
The reformers realised where their opposition came from, we latter day saints are so theologically dull we've no clue.

 

[Christ4Ever]

2. The campaign must be so convincing, so effective, that the whole world must be turned away from Protestantism and return to Rome.

It’s even more insidious then number 2 communicates! It’s not just turning away from Protestantism, but rather like Malware (Catholicism) which disguises itself as something friendly to a computer system (Protestants), but instead is actually destructive to the computers continued operation and even spread to infect others as well. This has become evident in the move to focus on what we have in common instead of the differences. This is active in ministries and individuals that apply a greater focus on the experience/spirituality and works focused missions minimizing or even disregarding the law in scripture in the process.

Anyone with an unclouded eye can see that Catholicism major focus is idolatry, which of cause is against the law of God and salvation through works. Many who expose that the law is no longer applicable, probably won't see the wrongness in the use of icons of worship within Catholicism, since the subject matter is Christ and of cause, “idolatry” is a law and not something one will be held accountable for. Associate the Cross within Protestant Churches to its use in Catholicism, and we cannot condemn their use. We won't split hairs which in turn allows the acceptance of what should be unacceptable, and an abomination to all Christians, which is idolatry in any way shape or form. This entry is not meant to bash those who see that we are no longer accountable to the law, but to show how Protestantism can be turned away by not holding firm to the Word of God. There are many who are well meaning, and ones who truly believe that the law no longer applies to a believer, yet with the same breath acknowledge that there can be saved people in Catholicism, even though “idolatry” and “transubstantiation within Communion” is daily evident and participated by and accepted by all. Remember that prior to receiving communion in the Catholic Church all are taught the significance of it, even if they might not be able to recall exactly what it means. Kind of like trying to remember the first time we tied our shoelaces alone without help. Shoot, I don’t even remember the first time I used the word shoelaces!


This is being done subtly and not so subtly but allowing Protestant Churches to maintain their liturgy while being swallowed up by the Catholic Church. If you’re an Anglican, but the authority you fall goes all the way to Rome, what are you? Catholic Church will have no problem with an Anglican still calling them that, as long as they fall under the umbrella of the Catholic Church. Rose by any other name is still a rose. This might be but one way amongst many that Protestantism will be swallowed up, in a most unexpected surprising fashion.

Wow! I didn’t mean to go on like that, but couldn’t help it. When I reread your number 2 in the above post it just stood out for some reason. Got a feeling that what I’ve just posted to you might start up another discussion on the Law! If it does, it was not my intent and I hope a moderator will intervene and have it moved to another more applicable thread and let you continue on with your study. Which by the way is awesome my brother!

YBIC
C4E

 

[brakelite]

It’s even more insidious then number 2 communicates! It’s not just turning away from Protestantism, but rather like Malware (Catholicism) which disguises itself as something friendly to a computer system (Protestants), but instead is actually destructive to the computers continued operation and even spread to infect others as well. This has become evident in the move to focus on what we have in common instead of the differences. This is active in ministries and individuals that apply a greater focus on the experience/spirituality and works focused missions minimizing or even disregarding the law in scripture in the process.

Spot on bro. A glaring example of that were the rather long-winded but gutless (in that there was no meat to them despite their long-windedness and flowery language) documents signed in the mid to late nineties, "Evangelicals and Catholics Together: The Christian Mission in the Third Millennium"; Signed by such Protestant luminaries as Chuck Colson, Pat Robertson and others, "The Gift of Salvation" which was written to soften the charges that the earlier document had glossed over the theological differences between Rome and Protestantism, and the third document which was even more telling than the previous, The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification agreed to between Lutherans and Rome. All three documents are frauds. What they represent is not what they purport to represent, that is an agreement that the differences in doctrine that sparked the reformation were merely semantics and cultural flaws, but rather a massive compromise on the part of Protestantism and a major shift towards Rome and a denial of all that the reformers died for.

Anyone with an unclouded eye can see that Catholicism major focus is idolatry, which of cause is against the law of God and salvation through works. Many who expose that the law is no longer applicable, probably won't see the wrongness in the use of icons of worship within Catholicism, since the subject matter is Christ and of cause, “idolatry” is a law and not something one will be held accountable for. Associate the Cross within Protestant Churches to its use in Catholicism, and we cannot condemn their use. We won't split hairs which in turn allows the acceptance of what should be unacceptable, and an abomination to all Christians, which is idolatry in any way shape or form. This entry is not meant to bash those who see that we are no longer accountable to the law, but to show how Protestantism can be turned away by not holding firm to the Word of God. There are many who are well meaning, and ones who truly believe that the law no longer applies to a believer, yet with the same breath acknowledge that there can be saved people in Catholicism, even though “idolatry” and “transubstantiation within Communion” is daily evident and participated by and accepted by all. Remember that prior to receiving communion in the Catholic Church all are taught the significance of it, even if they might not be able to recall exactly what it means. Kind of like trying to remember the first time we tied our shoelaces alone without help. Shoot, I don’t even remember the first time I used the word shoelaces!


This is being done subtly and not so subtly but allowing Protestant Churches to maintain their liturgy while being swallowed up by the Catholic Church. If you’re an Anglican, but the authority you fall goes all the way to Rome, what are you? Catholic Church will have no problem with an Anglican still calling them that, as long as they fall under the umbrella of the Catholic Church. Rose by any other name is still a rose. This might be but one way amongst many that Protestantism will be swallowed up, in a most unexpected surprising fashion.

Wow! I didn’t mean to go on like that, but couldn’t help it. When I reread your number 2 in the above post it just stood out for some reason. Got a feeling that what I’ve just posted to you might start up another discussion on the Law! If it does, it was not my intent and I hope a moderator will intervene and have it moved to another more applicable thread and let you continue on with your study. Which by the way is awesome my brother!

YBIC
C4E

Further evidence of Protestant compromise is the more recent acceptance of Mary throughout the protestant churches. The praise lavished upon the Mel Gibson movie from Protestant stalwarts such as Billy Graham and others amazed Gibson who admitted that the entire movie was based on Maryology. That Protestants didn't recognise this and condemn the movie outright is testimony to their current spiritual blindness. Comments such as "Biblically accurate" show also how ignorant modern Protestants are regarding the scriptures.

On another note, I mentioned earlier that I was going to elucidate somewhat on some prophetic characteristics regarding papal claims to global supremacy. It is interesting that on the forum, there is another thread focusing on prophecy featuring the futurist point of view. In Daniel 7 we are told that the little horn (Antichrist) would "think to change times and laws". This is fascinating particularly in light of what is transpiring in the other thread, which by the way, is diametrically opposed to most everything I have presented in this thread. And we cannot both be right. Either I and the reformers are absolutely correct, and the Roman Catholic church is indeed the Antichrist, or le coop and Eric Stahl and Hal Lindsay et al are correct and the Antichrist is some Jewish Rumanian/German/Lithuanian/French/Eskimo.
So rather than the global supremacy thing, I will instead focus on "think to change times and laws" and how that was specifically fulfilled by the papal church and how modern Protestantism has fallen for it, that thread being a prime example of Protestant gullibility. Watch this space. Be back shortly, God willing.

C4E, thanks for the previous post, nice to have someone else give some inptu to this thread, I tire of my own voice all the time.

 

[David777]

Rather interesting comments.

Dear Eric you are making a very broad generalization.

Here is what you wrote,

"Further evidence of Protestant compromise is the more recent acceptance of Mary throughout the protestant churches. The praise lavished upon the Mel Gibson movie from Protestant stalwarts such as Billy Graham and others amazed Gibson who admitted that the entire movie was based on Maryology. That Protestants didn't recognise this and condemn the movie outright is testimony to their current spiritual blindness. Comments such as "Biblically accurate" show also how ignorant modern Protestants are regarding the scriptures."

Do you stand by this generalization Eric. All protestants Eric?

The movie is based on Maryology?

Protestants are ignorant regarding the scriptures?

I am not a protestant Eric, these comments have nothing to do with me. I am concerned that you have set yourself up as judge and jury of all protestant believers. Thousands of different denominations. That is an amazing position to hold within Christendom, the Pope himself is of the opinion that you are Eric.

 

[brakelite]

Dear Eric you are making a very broad generalization.

Here is what you wrote,

"Further evidence of Protestant compromise is the more recent acceptance of Mary throughout the protestant churches. The praise lavished upon the Mel Gibson movie from Protestant stalwarts such as Billy Graham and others amazed Gibson who admitted that the entire movie was based on Maryology. That Protestants didn't recognise this and condemn the movie outright is testimony to their current spiritual blindness. Comments such as "Biblically accurate" show also how ignorant modern Protestants are regarding the scriptures."

Do you stand by this generalization Eric. All protestants Eric?

The movie is based on Maryology?

Protestants are ignorant regarding the scriptures?

I am not a protestant Eric, these comments have nothing to do with me. I am concerned that you have set yourself up as judge and jury of all protestant believers. Thousands of different denominations. That is an amazing position to hold within Christendom, the Pope himself is of the opinion that you are Eric.

First off, who's Eric?
Second, yes, I do stand by this generalisation. And as with all generalisations, there are of course exceptions. But there is, throughout many Protestant churches, a far greater acceptance of Mary and increasing, shall I say, devotion, to her. A little research will reveal this to you.
The Passion of the Christ, the movie from Mel Gibson, was based on Maryology according to Gibson himself who in an interview stated his surprise at the acceptance of the movie among the Protestant faiths. The movie was a depiction of the life and death of Jesus through the eyes of Mary; so orchestrated as to reinforce Catholic belief in Mary's co-redemptrix status with Jesus.
Protestant comments on the movie, such as Billy Graham's that the movie "was the most Biblically accurate depiction of the life and death of Christ I have seen", ( a paraphrase) do reveal an ignorance of scripture. It must be added of course that many who viewed the movie are not going to suddenly change their theological position on Mary, but it does have the effect of bringing Catholicism and Protestantism closer together, coupled with other initiatives in the ecumenical world like the aforementioned documents above, all added together reveals a general trend on the part of the Protestant faith toward Rome, culminating in complete union which prophecy informs us will take place in the not too distant future.

 

[David777]

Hello Brakelite.

Second, yes, I do stand by this generalisation. And as with all generalisations, there are of course exceptions. But there is, throughout many Protestant churches, a far greater acceptance of Mary and increasing, shall I say, devotion, to her. A little research will reveal this to you.
The Passion of the Christ, the movie from Mel Gibson, was based on Maryology according to Gibson himself who in an interview stated his surprise at the acceptance of the movie among the Protestant faiths. The movie was a depiction of the life and death of Jesus through the eyes of Mary; so orchestrated as to reinforce Catholic belief in Mary's co-redemptrix status with Jesus.
Protestant comments on the movie, such as Billy Graham's that the movie "was the most Biblically accurate depiction of the life and death of Christ I have seen", ( a paraphrase) do reveal an ignorance of scripture. It must be added of course that many who viewed the movie are not going to suddenly change their theological position on Mary, but it does have the effect of bringing Catholicism and Protestantism closer together, coupled with other initiatives in the ecumenical world like the aforementioned documents above, all added together reveals a general trend on the part of the Protestant faith toward Rome, culminating in complete union which prophecy informs us will take place in the not too distant future.

Hello Brakelite.
You made the generalization Brakelite, you will need to somehow support the generalization with some facts. How do we know that what you are proclaiming is not just your opinion.

A devotion to Mary is a pure Catholic position Brakelite. I am not aware of any Protestant church that worships Mary. You might know of a denomination or two, but I do not.

Mary and her co-redemptive status with Jesus. This sounds like a sect or a cult, "co-redemptive". Where do you get this from?

Billy Grahams comments may have been accurate, was it Biblical or not? I do not think Billy Graham is ignorant about scripture Brakelite.
Like I said before, I am not a protestant Brakelite.

What prophecy informs us of some union between Protestants and Catholics?

What is Maryology?

Protestants are ignorant of scripture?