What If I'm Born Gay?

[Armin]

Hi, Christ4Ever.

I watched it all the way through. The point I think I get is: Same sex behavior is sinful and unnatural. If one finds oneself burdened with same sex attraction and wishes they weren't, being born again in Christ, and persevering in that confession (which, in clinical terms, means willfully and constantly reprogramming oneself to reject same sex attraction) can alleviate that burden.

The premise is flawed, however. Homosexuality is manifestly not unnatural. It is an unremarkable behavior common among countless non-human species. It has been a routine aspect of human behavior for as long as there has been humans. Even from a "scientific" perspective it cannot be called "unnatural" or "unhealthy" for the population. 2000 years ago between 5-10% of people were exclusively homosexual, 1000 years ago between 5-10% of people were exclusively homosexual, and today between 5-10% of people are exclusively homosexual. These numbers are not affected by whether or not a society has heard the Good News. And this joint is crawling with more than 7,000,000,000 of us; so it obviously doesn't hamper reproductive viability.

Is homosexuality sinful? If anyone is going to make a case as such founded upon any a scriptural basis, there's a whole bunch of Leviticus that needs to be explained away. Either that or Homosexuality is the least of peoples' sin problems.

Actually, the Bible proposes that death it'self is unnatural. This is a problem that, if one follows the Bible, needs to be looked at spiritually. Death is, yes, a part of nature, but it is actually unnatural because God is the Creator of nature it'self. The reason why there's death is because there is sin. Sin is unnatural, death is unnatural, but if you mean homosexuality is "natural" because it exists in nature, then well, some animals eat their young.

We need, as a species, to follow the Creator's design, not our own pleasures.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Dear sister you mention Leviticus 20:13

Leviticus 20:13 (KJV)
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And you say it has been mistranslated, lets look a little closer, taking words in green for original meaning...
This is definitely MAN

13 If a man also lie with mankind,

Hebrew Word: ‏אִישׁ‎
Transliteration: ʾîsh
Phonetic Pronunciation: eesh
Root: contracted for <H582> [or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant]
Vine's Words: Man
English Words used in KJV:
man 1002
men 210
one 188
husband 69

('enowsh) [or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant]; a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation) :- also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy
Compare <H802> ('ishshah).

13 If a man also lie with mankind,
This is definitely to lie down, rest and/or sleep

Hebrew Word: ‏שָׁכַב‎
Transliteration: shākab
Phonetic Pronunciation:shaw-kab'
Root: a primitive root
English Words used in KJV:

lie 106
sleep 48
lie down 43
rest 3
lien 2
miscellaneous translations 10

a primitive root; to lie down (for rest, sexual connection, decease or any other purpose) :- × at all, cast down, ([over-]) lay (self) (down), (make to) lie (down, down to sleep, still, with), lodge, ravish, take rest, sleep, stay.

13 If a man also lie with mankind,
This is definitely mankind as in man with man, note above 'also lie' includes sexual connection!

Hebrew Word: ‏זָכָר‎
Transliteration: zākār
Phonetic Pronunciation:zaw-kawr'
Root: from <H2142>
Vine's Words: Male
English Words used in KJV:

male 67
man 7
child 4
mankind 2
him 1

from <H2142> (zakar); properly remembered, i.e. a male (of man or animals, as being the most noteworthy sex) :- × him, male, man (child, -kind).

I think someone is misleading you sister, although child is considered here, it is predominantly meant as male

Summing up

Leviticus 20:13 (KJV)
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

We definitely have

If a man lie down with another male, as he lies down with a woman, both have committed an abomination

You are being misguided sister, be careful, all the warnings are there.

This post is just as a means of confirming the true meaning as you stated it was mistranslated.

It has been mistranslated for you and others sister so you believe homosexuality and lesbianism is acceptable.

Peace be with you Jesus is Lord.

Whenever you meet someone who isn't heterosexual, does the phrase "they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" ever come to mind? If so, how do you make sense of that? I assume you allow such people to survive the encounter. Does your countenancing of their survival constitute sin?

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Actually, the Bible proposes that death it'self is unnatural. This is a problem that, if one follows the Bible, needs to be looked at spiritually. Death is, yes, a part of nature, but it is actually unnatural because God is the Creator of nature it'self. The reason why there's death is because there is sin. Sin is unnatural, death is unnatural, but if you mean homosexuality is "natural" because it exists in nature, then well, some animals eat their young.

We need, as a species, to follow the Creator's design, not our own pleasures.

Chimpanzee and dolphin societies have a thriving homosexual scene. In your opinion, do you suppose this was so before The Fall? If not, then is it sinful today? I would argue, if pre-Fall chimps and pre-Fall dolphins DID engage in homosexual behavior prior to the expulsion, then such behavior is unquestionably a cornerstone in the original design. Even if human homosexuality is sinful, isn't there something more significant in its consistency with the behavior of other creatures than simply "it's sinful?" If dolphin gay sex isn't sin, then, by definition, it is natural and, hence, God delights in it. I promise I'm not being facetious. God placed that impulse in Dolphins, they act upon it and it gladdens him. Man has the same impulse and to act on that impulse, God's judgement is death? I'm not saying it can't be so. But I find it inconsistent.

 

[Armin]

Chimpanzee and dolphin societies have a thriving homosexual scene. In your opinion, do you suppose this was so before The Fall? If not, then is it sinful today? I would argue, if pre-Fall chimps and pre-Fall dolphins DID engage in homosexual behavior prior to the expulsion, then such behavior is unquestionably a cornerstone in the original design. Even if human homosexuality is sinful, isn't there something more significant in its consistency with the behavior of other creatures than simply "it's sinful." If dolphin gay sex isn't sin, then, by definition, it is a natural and, hence, God delights in it. I promise I'm not being facetious. God placed that impulse in Dolphins, they act upon it and it gladdens him. Man has the same impulse and to act on that impulse, a God's judgement is death? I'm not saying it can't be so. But I find it inconsistent.

Well see, there are some sins that are always sinful, other sins that are "in the moment". Homosexuality is always sinful because it's listed as sin in the New Testament.

It only stands to reason that homosexuality is something wrongful to the Natural Order, especially when carried out by Humans.

So to answer your question more thoroughly, homosexuality as a relationship or something between animals probably never happened before the Fall.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Well see, there are some sins that are always sinful, other sins that are "in the moment". Homosexuality is always sinful because it's listed as sin in the New Testament.

It only stands to reason that homosexuality is something wrongful to the Natural Order, especially when carried out by Humans.

So to answer your question more thoroughly, homosexuality as a relationship or something between animals probably never happened before the Fall.

Does that mean non-human, mammal homosexual sex is sinful? (Really did NOT expect to take this weird turn. Apologies if I sound flip about it. I do not mean to be.)

 

[Armin]

Does that mean non-human, mammal homosexual sex is sinful? (Really did NOT expect to take this weird turn. Apologies if I sound flip about it. I do not mean to be.)

Before the Fall, animals didn'/t even eat each other. There likely wasn't anything wrongful against the natural order anywhere.

 

[B-A-C]

Does that mean non-human, mammal homosexual sex is sinful? (Really did NOT expect to take this weird turn. Apologies if I sound flip about it. I do not mean to be.)

Some animals eat their mates after mating, is that sinful?
Some animals throw their young out of trees when they are very young, is that sinful?
Some animals leave their young buried in the sand on a beach before they are born and never see again, is that sin?

Just because some things are "natural" to animals doesn't mean they should be natural to humans.
No where in the Bible does it say animals have a soul. Animals do not inherently know wrong from right. That's what separates humans from animals.
A dog might be trained to know what behavior you consider to be good or bad, but without behavior training they have no concept of good or evil.

 

[Quantrill]

Yes they are.

Why do you say that? Were you born that way?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

That's incorrect. There is no statistical deviation in the sexual identification between children raised by homosexual parents and those raised by heterosexuals. And people (even Christians) who are friends with families in which the parents are not heterosexual take justifiable offense when those friends or relatives are groundlessly and needlessly painted as taking part in "perversion."

Homosexuality is perversion. Homosexuals raising children is perversion. They can take offence all they want, it is still perversion. Scripture is clear.

Quantrill

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Before the Fall, animals didn'/t even eat each other. There likely wasn't anything wrongful against the natural order anywhere.

Yeah, but today these animals flourish best when they are able to have a lifestyle that includes homosexual activity. The video tries to make the case that homosexuality isn’t “just” sinful, it’s unhealthy. If it’s “unhealthy” for us, but healthy for animals, it stands to reason it wasn’t absent before the Fall, no?

Some animals eat their mates after mating, is that sinful?
Some animals throw their young out of trees when they are very young, is that sinful?
Some animals leave their young buried in the sand on a beach before they are born and never see again, is that sin?

Just because some things are "natural" to animals doesn't mean they should be natural to humans.
No where in the Bible does it say animals have a soul. Animals do not inherently know wrong from right. That's what separates humans from animals.
A dog might be trained to know what behavior you consider to be good or bad, but without behavior training they have no concept of good or evil.

“A dog might be trained to know what behavior you consider to be good or bad, but without behavior training they have no concept of good or evil.”

How is that in any way different from humans?

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

we hear of what people understand or have discovered today.
Today people try to use their new found info to discredit both God and the Bible.
The God of the Bible and the Scriptures of the Bible that tell all about God, is the same and has been the same since the beginning of our time [God Himself 'pre-dating' our time] and have and do say the same all the time and for people to try to discredit the Bible and God today is plain stupid!
I know, because i used to try to do the same thing.

Same goes with trying to re-write the Bible to fit modern thought or alleged discoveries, usually from the sciences.
What we all, the world over, need to do is start with accepting the God of the Bible and then start putting it all together from there. Use the Bible as a sort of microscope or lens to better see and understand the discoveries we keep coming up with [we being the human race - homosapiens is the term coined]

No matter what, Jesus plainly stated, unless a man is BORN again he can not enter the Kingdom of God. That is the place to start trying to find happiness and a life styled to a purpose of love.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Rad]

As a parent of a Gay son, i readily admit to struggling with the concept of his existence being viewed by many "Christians" as an abomination and an affront to God, i don't doubt the Scriptual references, how could i, its just the manner in which that condemnation is so often delivered amongst the God fearing and the Righteous,...... from wanting to deny Gay people the Human Rights afforded to many Hetrosexuals to calls for them being put to death, the persecution and abuse flows so readily, and leaves me feeling, just where would Christ be in this encounter, ........ i'm waiting for the day when these same good Christian folk vent their vehemence with equal fury on the rich and powerful whom Christ condemned so frequently, or those without Compassion in their hearts and Hypocrisy and hate in their souls, ........ seems to me that we ALL try in some way to justify our sins, thats part of being human, and that perhaps the struggle against this justification is one of the key determinents in our "Salvation".

 

[Brother-Paul]

Dear Rad,

Any person who does not love his neighbour as himself isn't worthy of being a follower if Christ, as Christ tells us to do just that. It doesn't matter if the person is homosexual, lesbian, rich or poor, saved or lost soul, we are to love one another. But not accept what is against God's Word for us all.

The trouble is, many LGBT people think they are right, they go against God's Word, then come to Christian forums preaching that scripture is wrong. When this happens it has to be made clear they are wrong, why? Because we love them my friend, and if they say scripture is wrong we have to show it isn't wrong by quoting scripture confirming this. If we didn't they are certain they are right and go away and tell others they are right.

Although there are extremes as you mention, we reply as lovingly as possible, but I am sure you are aware, like your son they do not always want to listen. Also not all those who profess to be Christian's are actually saved souls, though they may think they are.


In His love.

 

[Quantrill]

As a parent of a Gay son, i readily admit to struggling with the concept of his existence being viewed by many "Christians" as an abomination and an affront to God, i don't doubt the Scriptual references, how could i, its just the manner in which that condemnation is so often delivered amongst the God fearing and the Righteous,...... from wanting to deny Gay people the Human Rights afforded to many Hetrosexuals to calls for them being put to death, the persecution and abuse flows so readily, and leaves me feeling, just where would Christ be in this encounter, ........ i'm waiting for the day when these same good Christian folk vent their vehemence with equal fury on the rich and powerful whom Christ condemned so frequently, or those without Compassion in their hearts and Hypocrisy and hate in their souls, ........ seems to me that we ALL try in some way to justify our sins, thats part of being human, and that perhaps the struggle against this justification is one of the key determinents in our "Salvation".

Why do you struggle? The Scriptures are clear.

That you struggle indicates you are part of the problem.

You say you don't doubt the Scriptural references, yet you don't want to say what Scripture says. As though Jesus Christ would say differently.

I am a sinner also. But, I don't try and say my sin is acceptable to God. I am guilty. I need to repent. Homosexuals instead, as you are doing also, try and find a way to make their homosexuality acceptable to God.

You do your son a great disservice.

Quantrill

 

[Christ4Ever]

Wow so beautifully stated. Very well said.

I'm actually writing a book on mental health and spirituality, once I finish my doctorate program
I'm in now. With your permission, I'll like to use part of that quote in my book.

Book is titled ---------------------------

Dissecting Your Diagnosis

A CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE
ON MENTAL HEALTH

The primary Bible verse that the book rest on is Hebrews 4:12 ( obviously many other verses will be referenced)

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

- Hebrews 4:12​

Dear Brother,
Thank-you brother for your kind words. Of course you may use whatever you desire of what I write that will help you.
Always to the Glory of God Brother!
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Christ4Ever]

Sorry friend, that is not Biblical.... no one is born gay... It is your choice, not God's.

Hello Born Again 2004,
I guess I must have received this video's contents differently. I don't see that they are saying that God made a person to be gay, as much as anyone else is born of any other sinful behavior. Just that because sin is part of us from birth, that it is not beyond the pale to see where a type of generational curse exists that would have one more prone to one specific sin above others. This doesn't mean that they are born homosexual, but rather that the tendency of falling into this sin is probably greater in this are then it would be for others.

Humanity is born into sin and there is no justification for it, period! Not because God made them that way, but because of the fall. How that sin presents itself in our lives, can have internal/external stimuli which feed it into existence. Think of it like a seed. Unless you're a seed person (I'm not) and can distinguish one from another. The only way is to either see where the seed came from or wait until it sprouts into something in order to identify it. The seed we have in us is the one of disobedience. Not following the will of our God, produces nothing good. That is until He intervenes in our lives through Jesus Christ.

So, you are right that it is our choice which specific sin we fall into, but sin regardless of the tendency towards one or another can only be controlled/done away with through God's Loving Grace found only in our Savior Jesus Christ. That is the real point I took away from this video.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi, Christ4Ever.

I watched it all the way through. The point I think I get is: Same sex behavior is sinful and unnatural. If one finds oneself burdened with same sex attraction and wishes they weren't, being born again in Christ, and persevering in that confession (which, in clinical terms, means willfully and constantly reprogramming oneself to reject same sex attraction) can alleviate that burden.

The premise is flawed, however. Homosexuality is manifestly not unnatural. It is an unremarkable behavior common among countless non-human species. It has been a routine aspect of human behavior for as long as there has been humans. Even from a "scientific" perspective it cannot be called "unnatural" or "unhealthy" for the population. 2000 years ago between 5-10% of people were exclusively homosexual, 1000 years ago between 5-10% of people were exclusively homosexual, and today between 5-10% of people are exclusively homosexual. These numbers are not affected by whether or not a society has heard the Good News. And this joint is crawling with more than 7,000,000,000 of us; so it obviously doesn't hamper reproductive viability.

Is homosexuality sinful? If anyone is going to make a case as such founded upon any a scriptural basis, there's a whole bunch of Leviticus that needs to be explained away. Either that or Homosexuality is the least of peoples' sin problems.

Hello KDP,
I understand what you are saying, and that is exactly what an unbeliever would take from it. I state this because the name of Jesus was never even used by you to explain how one overcomes, but rather that "reprogramming" was necessary. Your choice to believe or not believe. Just don't get involved in these questions that involve Jesus as the solution, because you don't have an iron in the fire to question it's viability or in truth the necessity. Until you do, what you pretty much are spouting doesn't even identify that a problem exists, except it be Christianity. If so, that's best left unsaid by you, or it probably will be the last comment you make. Yes a warning, but only because I love you lost one, and hope that one day I can call you brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><

 

[Armin]

Why do you struggle? The Scriptures are clear.

That you struggle indicates you are part of the problem.

You say you don't doubt the Scriptural references, yet you don't want to say what Scripture says. As though Jesus Christ would say differently.

I am a sinner also. But, I don't try and say my sin is acceptable to God. I am guilty. I need to repent. Homosexuals instead, as you are doing also, try and find a way to make their homosexuality acceptable to God.

You do your son a great disservice.

Quantrill

If I may interject, I believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, "homosexuals" don't necessarily all fall under the same condemnation as those whom God gives to their own lusts. there are some people who "struggle" with disturbing things like urges to do what's wrong. I'm a glutton. I eat too much and more importantly, food is always on my mind.

What I'm getting at is that even people who have food on their mind all the time are gluttons in their heart, much like a homosexual can be gay in their heart, yet it's not the same as someone who is committing the sin of sodomy.

People should realize , especially if they follow Jesus, that everyone is a sinner, and that even if we don't "deserve" mercy, per se, no one does.

I am both the glutton and the example of the homosexual who just has a dirty dirty mind. I'm trying to cleanse my soul with the blood of Jesus by studying the Bible and getting into fellowship with believers so I won't have sinful behavior on my mind all the time.

To suggest that I am part of the problem is cruel.

Which is what I think Rad is saying.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

am both the glutton and the example of the homosexual who just has a dirty dirty mind. I'm trying to cleanse my soul with the blood of Jesus by studying the Bible and getting into fellowship with believers so I won't have sinful behavior on my mind all the time.

Greetings,
Both of these are simply FLESH. You can play with them or make excuses for them or think that reading Gods Word will make it all ok.

Fact is......you have a Discipline Problem with your Flesh in these areas.

Once you get serious about this with God the Father you shall find everlasting deliverance.

Blessings

 

[Armin]

Greetings,
Both of these are simply FLESH. You can play with them or make excuses for them or think that reading Gods Word will make it all ok.

Fact is......you have a Discipline Problem with your Flesh in these areas.

Once you get serious about this with God the Father you shall find everlasting deliverance.

Blessings

I agree. My point is though, that if I understand the point about forgiveness and repentance, I shouldn't be out of fellowship or chastised if I'm serious about it, and I am.