What is hell?

[KingJ]

When studying Mathew 25, verses 41 to 42 I am wondering what is hell and who is in charge there? I always assumed it is the devil but now I need clarification.
If the eternal fire is prepared for the devil and his demons, that puts a new slant on things.

I always thought hell was where God is not present, so that fits the long term. Yet the devil and his followers are not yet in hell, so where do the unbelievers go meanwhile? How can the devil receive their lost souls?

Hi Christina

You ask ''what is hell and who is in charge there''

Hell is 'simply' a home for the unrepentant. Currently it is Hades, after judgement day Hades will be cleared and hell will be the lake of fire.

God gives free will to all mankind and angels. We are beings with high intelligence, able to give ourselves over to a love or hate of what is wicked. Christians, hate what is wicked and repent, all others don't. Well not at a level that God requires as He says He will not despise anyone who does it sincerely Psalm 51:17 and only He can judge the heart Jer 17:10, 1 Sam 16:7. Someone like the devil for example has been sinning since the beginning with no repentance 1 John 3:8.

Many completely fail in explaining hell, they incriminate God. Proposing that God is worse then the worse men and angels who have ever lived. Torture, for example is something 'only' possible by a wicked being. God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, to the exclusion of none, even to those He does not need to be nice to in hell.

A Christian should know that God is good Psalm 136:1 and the definition of 'love' 1 John 4:7 as the prophets did. It is thus beyond me why so many fail terribly in explaining hell.

Hell will be a place a good person approves of and one better then the Geneva convention. The Geneva convention started when the WW2 allies needed to separate and punish those Germans that were guilty of the greatest crimes against humanity. So, I would propose a good person will agree with the Geneva convention stipulations for those in hell, a Christian should do better and God.....well God is on the absolute side of perfection and love as only He is truly good Mark 10:18. Many will propose that if God does something evil, we can't call Him out on it as He is ''God'', but this is utter trash. Abraham calls God out on the destruction of Sodom in Gen 18. God explains Himself to Abraham and he approves. We see this with Moses and the Hebrews worshipping the golden calf too in Exo 32.

God mentions four things about hell that I feel deserve explaining for much needed context. Before I start with them, I want you to consider how God mentioned only a few things to Adam and Eve on what awaited them after their sin. Gen 3 mentions, 1. Pain in childbirth, 2. Husband will rule over wife, 3. Cursed ground, 4. Dust to dust / no eternal life on earth. But what God did not mention was..... 1. Nice fruit, 2. Beautiful beaches, 3. Having the ability to create tools to plough the field, 4. Create medicines and painkillers to help with childbirth, etc etc etc etc. Earth would and could be a very nice place if ''only'' the people on it were not evil. So why does God not mention all the good things about Earth and the life that awaits them in Gen 3? I am going to propose that He did not need to as Adam and Eve ''knew'' it was a 'given' as they 'knew' God is good. We need to consider the same when using only a few verses as the A-Z explanation of eternal hell.

The four most impactful scriptural statements on hell to consider 1. Weeping and gnashing of teeth, 2. Darkness, 3. Eternal torment, 4. Fire.

1. Luke 13:28 says people in hell weep and gnash their teeth because they look up and see the saints and Jesus. They weep because they are cast out of heaven. Full-stop.

Many miss teach that they weep because they are on fire. There is no scripture that supports that, only dreams from people who took the wrong sleeping pills.

2. In John 3:19 we see that Jesus says people love the darkness because their deeds are evil. Hell is not a place where the lights are permanently off. Darkness is a metaphor for a place where evil takes place. This makes sense as those in hell will be unrepentant sinners.

3. Eternal Torment. It makes sense to me that a good God gives true free will. ''Accept me, come be with me. Reject me, go be somewhere else''. God keeps the evil alive for all eternity as not doing so would be evil. 'No free will' is evil. Just ask any unlucky lady forced into an arranged marriage. As you are surrounded by unrepentant sinners and have fire, it will be a place of torment when compared to heaven.

4. Fire in hell is the most miss-taught suffering.

We know from the story of the rich man speaking to Abraham, that he was able to have a conversation and asked for a drop of water on his tongue Luke 16. If you are on fire, will you ask for a drop of water or have a rational conversation with someone?

Scripture teaches us that there ''has'' to be a punishment for sin. God has set this in place as an absolute rule. Christians have the blood of Jesus covering them from all their sins, current and future. Those in hell, don't. As such, I firmly believe that fire is God's chosen method of punishment. Example: On year fifty in hell, you decide to stab your neighbor in the leg. A fire of sort for X amount of time will be on you. As evil continues forever among those that are in hell, so too does 'fire'.

Outside of these four, I believe hell will be a very a nice place. God does not create horrible places of torture and torment. It is simply not in Him to do so. Just ask anyone who actually knows Him.

God is in charge of everything, definitely hell.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

That is close to my belief.
You eventually spend eternity in company with that which you worship most.

Yeah, it works both ways.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

That is close to my belief.
You eventually spend eternity in company with that which you worship most.

By the way, Satan cannot create anything by himself, he can only copy what God created. All his modus operandi originates from God's. There's a term called "fullness of the gentiles (nations)" mentioned in Luke 21:24 and Romans 11:25, it means a certain quota of believers among the gentiles. When that quota is met, then the Body of Christ is complete, Christ will return and Satan will be defeated. Therefore, Satan is doing all that he can at his disposal, using all kinds of tricks - intimidation, temptation, false religion, etc - to tear people away from Christ, in a desperate attempt to slow down this progress. He really believes he could flip the script, but all is futile, because in the end, Christ will return and have him defeated.

 

[KingJ]

By the way, Satan cannot create anything by himself, he can only copy what God created. All his modus operandi originates from God's. There's a term called "fullness of the gentiles (nations)" mentioned in Luke 21:24 and Romans 11:25, it means a certain quota of believers among the gentiles. When that quota is met, then the Body of Christ is complete, Christ will return and Satan will be defeated. Therefore, Satan is doing all that he can at his disposal, using all kinds of tricks - intimidation, temptation, false religion, etc - to tear people away from Christ, in a desperate attempt to slow down this progress. He really believes he could flip the script, but all is futile, because in the end, Christ will return and have him defeated.

I believe you are cherry picking Rom 11:25 to make an anti-free will assumption about God.

Bit of a side topic, but why would you say satan can't create anything? Angels are just above us and we can create many things.

 

[Beetow]

According to Matt 7:13-14 and Matt 22:14; relatively few make it to safety in the
afterlife compared to relatively many that don't.

Webster's defines "many" as consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite
number; while "few" is defined as consisting of, or amounting to, only a small
number; viz: relative to many then, few is the lesser. Bear with me while I flesh
this out.

According to the US Census Bureau: as of Oct 16, 2022, @ 08:50 AM New York
Time, the resident population in the United States was approximately 333,209,776
with a death rate of approximately one every 13 seconds; which translates to an
average of 6,646 American deaths of all ages, races, and genders during just one
24-hour calendar day.

According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths were
under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 4,832 of the current
daily death rate per 24 hours are adults.

Giving the "many" the benefit of the doubt by limiting their maximum percentage to
51%, would indicate a minimum of 2,464 American adults transferring to perdition
every day: which translates to roughly 103 per hour.

That's a very conservative estimate as Christ didn't really specify exact percentages
to represent the quantities of "few" and "many".

Using the ratio of 2,464 condemned souls per 333,209,776 population: computing
the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently estimated global
population of 7,927,116,144 people, would suggest something like 58,619 new
arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld every 24 hours; which translates to
roughly 2,442 souls every sixty minutes on the clock.

Yankee Stadium's football seating capacity is 54,251. At the rate of 2,442 souls per
hour, those seats would be filled in roughly 22 hours and 13 minutes. In other
words: had the world's daily number of condemned souls started filing into the
stadium at 06:00 am NY time this morning, the stadium's seats would be maxed by
4 hours and 13 minutes after midnight tonight.

Christmas and New Year are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death
certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on those
days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to 12.2%
higher.

The netherworld never closes; no, not at all: it's open for business 24/7/365
nonstop and indifferent to climate change, Wall Street crashes, massive layoffs,
outsourcing, high school shootings, terrorism, tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes,
storm surges, nuclear meltdowns, pandemics, Dr. Anthony Fauci's science, air,
water, and soil pollution, a mission to Mars, freeway pile-ups, brown-outs,
threatened species, the price of oil, Falun Gong organ harvesting, election fraud,
student debt, GMO, trade deficits, Antifa, Black Lives Matter, North Korea's nukes,
Federal debt, factory recalls, overpopulation, desertification, genocides, revolutions,
civil wars, acid rain, creeping socialism, abortion on demand, road rage, oil spills,
conscious decoupling, LGBT marriage, puberty blockers, blood diamonds, fracking,
twerking, Queen Elizabeth II's passing, and/or midterm elections.

If standard Christianity's perception of Jesus Christ and the hereafter is correct;
then it's apparent that souls never stop cascading into the abyss in an endless
procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry broilers passing annually
through Tyson chicken-processing plants on their way to Wendy's, McDonalds,
Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger King, Chic-fil-A, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy
Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and to supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and
wherever else Tyson vends its meats. The slaughtering and the butchering never
stop.
_

 

[Brother Paul]

That is close to my belief.
You eventually spend eternity in company with that which you worship most.

All of them are or were as a lord unto Self. They are their own god (Genesis 3:5) and did what was seen as right in their own eyes. But none of them is the ruler there.

 

[Brother Paul]

Hi Christina

You ask ''what is hell and who is in charge there''

Hell is 'simply' a home for the unrepentant. Currently it is Hades, after judgement day Hades will be cleared and hell will be the lake of fire.

God gives free will to all mankind and angels. We are beings with high intelligence, able to give ourselves over to a love or hate of what is wicked. Christians, hate what is wicked and repent, all others don't. Well not at a level that God requires as He says He will not despise anyone who does it sincerely Psalm 51:17 and only He can judge the heart Jer 17:10, 1 Sam 16:7. Someone like the devil for example has been sinning since the beginning with no repentance 1 John 3:8.

Many completely fail in explaining hell, they incriminate God. Proposing that God is worse then the worse men and angels who have ever lived. Torture, for example is something 'only' possible by a wicked being. God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, to the exclusion of none, even to those He does not need to be nice to in hell.

A Christian should know that God is good Psalm 136:1 and the definition of 'love' 1 John 4:7 as the prophets did. It is thus beyond me why so many fail terribly in explaining hell.

Hell will be a place a good person approves of and one better then the Geneva convention. The Geneva convention started when the WW2 allies needed to separate and punish those Germans that were guilty of the greatest crimes against humanity. So, I would propose a good person will agree with the Geneva convention stipulations for those in hell, a Christian should do better and God.....well God is on the absolute side of perfection and love as only He is truly good Mark 10:18. Many will propose that if God does something evil, we can't call Him out on it as He is ''God'', but this is utter trash. Abraham calls God out on the destruction of Sodom in Gen 18. God explains Himself to Abraham and he approves. We see this with Moses and the Hebrews worshipping the golden calf too in Exo 32.

God mentions four things about hell that I feel deserve explaining for much needed context. Before I start with them, I want you to consider how God mentioned only a few things to Adam and Eve on what awaited them after their sin. Gen 3 mentions, 1. Pain in childbirth, 2. Husband will rule over wife, 3. Cursed ground, 4. Dust to dust / no eternal life on earth. But what God did not mention was..... 1. Nice fruit, 2. Beautiful beaches, 3. Having the ability to create tools to plough the field, 4. Create medicines and painkillers to help with childbirth, etc etc etc etc. Earth would and could be a very nice place if ''only'' the people on it were not evil. So why does God not mention all the good things about Earth and the life that awaits them in Gen 3? I am going to propose that He did not need to as Adam and Eve ''knew'' it was a 'given' as they 'knew' God is good. We need to consider the same when using only a few verses as the A-Z explanation of eternal hell.

The four most impactful scriptural statements on hell to consider 1. Weeping and gnashing of teeth, 2. Darkness, 3. Eternal torment, 4. Fire.

1. Luke 13:28 says people in hell weep and gnash their teeth because they look up and see the saints and Jesus. They weep because they are cast out of heaven. Full-stop.

Many miss teach that they weep because they are on fire. There is no scripture that supports that, only dreams from people who took the wrong sleeping pills.

2. In John 3:19 we see that Jesus says people love the darkness because their deeds are evil. Hell is not a place where the lights are permanently off. Darkness is a metaphor for a place where evil takes place. This makes sense as those in hell will be unrepentant sinners.

3. Eternal Torment. It makes sense to me that a good God gives true free will. ''Accept me, come be with me. Reject me, go be somewhere else''. God keeps the evil alive for all eternity as not doing so would be evil. 'No free will' is evil. Just ask any unlucky lady forced into an arranged marriage. As you are surrounded by unrepentant sinners and have fire, it will be a place of torment when compared to heaven.

4. Fire in hell is the most miss-taught suffering.

We know from the story of the rich man speaking to Abraham, that he was able to have a conversation and asked for a drop of water on his tongue Luke 16. If you are on fire, will you ask for a drop of water or have a rational conversation with someone?

Scripture teaches us that there ''has'' to be a punishment for sin. God has set this in place as an absolute rule. Christians have the blood of Jesus covering them from all their sins, current and future. Those in hell, don't. As such, I firmly believe that fire is God's chosen method of punishment. Example: On year fifty in hell, you decide to stab your neighbor in the leg. A fire of sort for X amount of time will be on you. As evil continues forever among those that are in hell, so too does 'fire'.

Outside of these four, I believe hell will be a very a nice place. God does not create horrible places of torture and torment. It is simply not in Him to do so. Just ask anyone who actually knows Him.

God is in charge of everything, definitely hell.

Well done. Amen

 

[Beetow]

Famed rock guitarist Eddie Van Halen passed away in October of 2020. He was a
Roman Catholic. I was one myself for 24 years, so I can say from personal
experience, that it's not easy to get into heaven via that version of Christianity.

Well; if perchance Eddie failed to make the cut (not saying he didn't; only saying "if
perchance") then he will never again be allowed to even so much as see a guitar let
alone pick one up with his hands.

Can you imagine a talented, pioneering musician like Eddie never again allowed to
do the one thing in life that he loved the most? I mean never again like as in
permanently.

Hell is bad enough for ordinary folk; it must be doubly miserable for creative
people: the poets, the painters, the sculptors, the architects, the fashion designers,
the authors, the choreographers, the gourmet cooks, the engineers, the scientific
geniuses, the explorers, the movers and the shakers, et al.

BTW: According to Luke 16:19-31, people in the netherworld worry about their
surviving relatives . Well; Eddie's ex wife Valerie Bertinelli was raised a Roman
Catholic too. I've no doubt that if perchance Eddie is down there, he's wishing there
were some way to contact Vallerie and let her know where he is lest she follow him
right down there.
_

 

[Butch5]

HI

Hi Brother Paul ,
I suppose I have formed this opinion after many influences and my own logic. Yet I do seek the truth now.
Does it make sense that the devil and God compete for our souls?
Yet we know the devil was cast out of heaven to roam the earth. It also seems the firy pit is prepared for him and his demons eventually. So do any souls who follow him end up there too? I do not know if there is a hell where he rules.
It is interesting and ought to be explored.

Hi Christina,

As I said in my other post, the idea that people suffer eternally is not a Biblical concept. It comes from the Greek philosophical idea that man has an immortal soul. Christians have adopted this concept. Initially, the Gospel went to the Jewish people. Later it went to the Gentiles. As more and more Gentiles became Christians their prior beliefs began to influence their understanding of Scripture. Once the apostles we gone there was no one to correct the errors. More and more Greek thinking began to influence Christians. The primary belief among the Greeks in New Testament times was that man has an immortal soul. They believed the body was a prison of soul. Their goal was to escape the body and ascend through the heavens to what they called the Pleroma or fulness. You can see this idea in Christianity today with the idea that Christians go to Heaven when they die. In this thinking the soul is immortal so it has to be somewhere, thus the doctrine of eternal torment. However, as I said, this doctrine is false. Paul tells us plainly that the Father ALONE has immortality.

1 Timothy 6:14–16 (KJV 1900): That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Here Paul says that at the time Jesus will show who is the ONLY one who has immortality. It's the one no one has seen nor can see. That's the Father.

Now, no matter how we understand any passage of Scripture we must, if we're being honest, engage this passage. Paul states that the Father alone has immortality. That means that man doesn't. Man does not have an immortal soul. If man doesn't have an immortal soul he won't suffer eternally. God said through Ezekiel that the soul that sins shall die. He didn't say it will suffer eternally. He said it will die. That's exactly what happens. That's why the Lake of Fire, AKA Gehenna, is called the second death. When the wicked are raised to life again, they are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire where they DIE a second time. They are not there eternally they burn up. When Jesus talks of the wicked being destroyed in Gehenna He quotes from Isaiah 66.

Isaiah 66:23–24 (KJV 1900): And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
And from one sabbath to another,
Shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
And they shall go forth, and look
Upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:
For their worm shall not die,
Neither shall their fire be quenched;
And they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Notice the prophecy. What's burning are carcasses . Dead bodies. These are not living souls suffering torment. They are dead bodies. They are the bodies of those who have transgressed against God.

This idea of an immortal soul has caused so many to misunderstand the Bible and has done great damage to Christianity. Many have rejected Christianity because they can't reconcile a God who the Bible says, "is love" with the idea of eternal torment. The promoting of this doctrine does damage to the faith and keeps some from becoming Christians. Not to mention it impugns God's character. If the doctrine is true then we see a bait and switch. God says the soul that sins shall die, and after the soul sins it become oh no, you won't die, you'll be tortured forever. To promise one punishment before and then change it after the act is committed is deceitful. This is what this doctrine does to God's character. God is not deceitful. The punishment is exactly what He said it would be. Some may say, well, it was changed in the New Testament. But, that not the case. Paul said in Romans 6, 'the wages of sin is death'.

 

[Beetow]

• Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to enter
the kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown into Hell; where
the worm never dies and the fire never goes out.

The Hell in that passage is a different Greek word than the Hell of Luke 16:19
31. That one is haides (hah'-dace) which is an afterlife sphere where all the dead
go; both the good dead and the bad dead regardless of age, race, color, gender or
religious preference. This word here in Mark is geena (gheh'-en-nah) which is
where only the bad dead will end up some day: likely the lake of brimstone
depicted at Rev 20:11-15

Anyway; Christ's instructions didn't reveal anything new. He simply reiterated
information that had already been released by an Old Testament prophet roughly
700 years before.

• Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me-- speaks the Lord. And
they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against Me:
their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome
to all mankind.

That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La Brea
Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric creatures,
excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.

A worm that thrives in brimstone is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4
inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit; hot enough
to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like
the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even
warmer

FAQ: The human body is organic. So then, how can it survive the heat as perpetual
nourishment for those worms?

REPLY: The laws of nature are not absolute. They were created in the first chapter
of Genesis to control the behavior of created matter, and as such are easily
manipulated by the one who designed them.

For example: fire from God totally incinerated the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah
but left unscathed a desert shrub that Moses encountered in the Sinai outback while
tending his father-in-law's sheep. (Ex 3:1-3)

Compare Dan 3:8-27 where a blistering hot fire didn't even so much as singe the
clothing of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego while slaying the guards that threw
them in the furnace.

FAQ: Won't the worms eventually exhaust their food supply?

REPLY: There are incidents in the Bible where small amounts of food stuffs were
miraculously multiplied. One example is 1Kgs 17:8-16 where a tiny bit of flour and
oil nourished Elijah and a widow woman, and her son, for a good many days during
a time of prolonged drought.

Another incident is at 2Kgs 4:1-7 where a certain widow's husband died and left her
deeply in debt. God multiplied her last pot of oil sufficiently to sell enough to pay off
her debts, thereby saving her two sons from slavery.

No; I'm pretty sure those worms won't need to worry about running out of human
remains with which to sustain themselves.
_

 

[Godsangel]

I don't think babies will go to hell. You mention age.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I believe you are cherry picking Rom 11:25 to make an anti-free will assumption about God.

Bit of a side topic, but why would you say satan can't create anything? Angels are just above us and we can create many things.

Our creativity is inherited from God, that's one hallmark that makes mankind different from animals. Many animals can use tools, but none can make one from raw materials. Satan and his angels on the other hand do not have it. They don't have originality. All they can do is copying God's handiwork.

As for free will, I'm not against it. I'm all for it. I argued in the free will thread multiple times that we have a natural will to sin, for self-preservation, but we also have a FREE WILL to obey God. And Romans 11:25 just reveals a part of God's plan, as I explained.

 

[Beetow]

I don't think babies will go to hell. You mention age.

I counted all ages among the daily dead, but excluded people under the
age of 19 for the Hell count.
_

 

[Beetow]

FAQ: Do people in Hell have immortality?

REPLY: No.

FAQ: Do people in Hell have eternal life?

REPLY: No.

FAQ: If so that people in Hell have neither immortality nor eternal life, then how
can it be possible their conscious suffering is perpetual?

REPLY: There's a level of existence about which I know practically nothing.

People in Hell lose their bodies when the pass on, so that rules out immortality.
They keep human nature when they pass, so that rules out eternal life.

The dark side of this world consists of spirit beings. I strongly suspect that when
the lost pass on, they themselves become existent as spirit beings-- but I don't
think they become demons or devils or some such.

For example: the story told at Luke 16:19-31 portrays a man in Hades entirely
sentient. He has a tongue, and vision, and hearing, and is capable of speech. Plus;
his memories are intact, and he's capable of anxiety. From all appearances, the man
is fully human except of course he's no longer physical.
_

 

[Beetow]

Look again at that dot. That’s here. That’s home. That’s us.

On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every
human being who ever was, lived out their lives.

The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies,
and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every
creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in
love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher
of morals, every corrupt politician, every superstar, every supreme leader,
every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-- on a mote of dust
suspended in a sunbeam. (Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot)

The Earth is literally a death star, careening thru space, looping around and
around the Sun many times over and again: a floating grave yard whose soil is
filled with the dead from many centuries stretching back to Abel: the first of its
passengers to return to the dust from whence they came.

• Eccl 7:2 . . It is better to spend your time at funerals than at festivals. For you are
going to die, and you should think about it while there is still time.
_

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I don't think babies will go to hell. You mention age.

All are dead in Adam, all are bound to hell. There is none who is righteous, no, not one. That's Paul's logic laid out in early chapters of Romans, and Yeshua told the same thing to Nicodemus, that all who don't believe are condemned already. Based on that conclusion, unfortunately, babies go down to hell as well - prematurely. It's NOT about morality, it's just a heartbreaking tragedy in this sinful and fallen world. All who don't seek Christ naturally go down to hell like a river flowing into the sea, it's a natural progress of degeneration.

Y'all remember that man who was born blind? And disciples were arguing whether it was the man's fault or his parents? Convert that into a modern day context, the question would be - is it a birth defect or a hereditary disability from the parents' genes? That's typical worldly mentality. When you ask do babies go to hell - or, do they DESERVE to go to hell, you're actually asking the same question those disciples were asking about that blind man. And how did Yeshua respond? NEITHER, but the work of God might be manifested. Then he performed a miracle and gave him sight. The same work of God is manifested when a preterm, weak or sick baby who is certained about to die on his own is saved through medical intervention, that's the modern day equivalent.

 

[KingJ]

Our creativity is inherited from God, that's one hallmark that makes mankind different from animals. Many animals can use tools, but none can make one from raw materials. Satan and his angels on the other hand do not have it. They don't have originality. All they can do is copying God's handiwork.

As for free will, I'm not against it. I'm all for it. I argued in the free will thread multiple times that we have a natural will to sin, for self-preservation, but we also have a FREE WILL to obey God. And Romans 11:25 just reveals a part of God's plan, as I explained.

Thanks for explaining.

Just a side note, I believe the fallen angels are behind UFO's, vampires, werewolves, aliens, cyclops, giants, minotaurs, certain dinosaurs. Only certain fallen angels are locked up and in prison, unable to do things. Surely God would not expect them to be idle? But perhaps a topic for another thread .

 

[KingJ]

HI

Hi Christina,

As I said in my other post, the idea that people suffer eternally is not a Biblical concept. It comes from the Greek philosophical idea that man has an immortal soul. Christians have adopted this concept. Initially, the Gospel went to the Jewish people. Later it went to the Gentiles. As more and more Gentiles became Christians their prior beliefs began to influence their understanding of Scripture. Once the apostles we gone there was no one to correct the errors. More and more Greek thinking began to influence Christians. The primary belief among the Greeks in New Testament times was that man has an immortal soul. They believed the body was a prison of soul. Their goal was to escape the body and ascend through the heavens to what they called the Pleroma or fulness. You can see this idea in Christianity today with the idea that Christians go to Heaven when they die. In this thinking the soul is immortal so it has to be somewhere, thus the doctrine of eternal torment. However, as I said, this doctrine is false. Paul tells us plainly that the Father ALONE has immortality.

1 Timothy 6:14–16 (KJV 1900): That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Here Paul says that at the time Jesus will show who is the ONLY one who has immortality. It's the one no one has seen nor can see. That's the Father.

Now, no matter how we understand any passage of Scripture we must, if we're being honest, engage this passage. Paul states that the Father alone has immortality. That means that man doesn't. Man does not have an immortal soul. If man doesn't have an immortal soul he won't suffer eternally. God said through Ezekiel that the soul that sins shall die. He didn't say it will suffer eternally. He said it will die. That's exactly what happens. That's why the Lake of Fire, AKA Gehenna, is called the second death. When the wicked are raised to life again, they are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire where they DIE a second time. They are not there eternally they burn up. When Jesus talks of the wicked being destroyed in Gehenna He quotes from Isaiah 66.

Isaiah 66:23–24 (KJV 1900): And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
And from one sabbath to another,
Shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
And they shall go forth, and look
Upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:
For their worm shall not die,
Neither shall their fire be quenched;
And they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Notice the prophecy. What's burning are carcasses . Dead bodies. These are not living souls suffering torment. They are dead bodies. They are the bodies of those who have transgressed against God.

This idea of an immortal soul has caused so many to misunderstand the Bible and has done great damage to Christianity. Many have rejected Christianity because they can't reconcile a God who the Bible says, "is love" with the idea of eternal torment. The promoting of this doctrine does damage to the faith and keeps some from becoming Christians. Not to mention it impugns God's character. If the doctrine is true then we see a bait and switch. God says the soul that sins shall die, and after the soul sins it become oh no, you won't die, you'll be tortured forever. To promise one punishment before and then change it after the act is committed is deceitful. This is what this doctrine does to God's character. God is not deceitful. The punishment is exactly what He said it would be. Some may say, well, it was changed in the New Testament. But, that not the case. Paul said in Romans 6, 'the wages of sin is death'.

Butch, as I said a while back to you, I respect your attempt to credit God as good and therefore reject eternal torment as that can only be evil.

But I plead with you to consider the 'fact' that the statement ''Accept me or die'' is a statement that no loving being can make.

The answer to justifying God as good on eternal torment lies in better understanding those scriptures that speak to what takes place in hell.

You simply cannot ignore the following scriptures on eternal torment:

1. Mark 9:48 / Isa 66:24 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
2. Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3. Matt 25:46 Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life
4. 2 Thess 1:5-10 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
5. Jude 7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire
6. Jude 13 for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
7. Rev 14:9-11 If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name
8. Rev 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Thanks for explaining.

Just a side note, I believe the fallen angels are behind UFO's, vampires, werewolves, aliens, cyclops, giants, minotaurs, certain dinosaurs. Only certain fallen angels are locked up and in prison, unable to do things. Surely God would not expect them to be idle? But perhaps a topic for another thread .

Yep, all of those false idols, the whole shebang. God made men in God's image, men made godS in men's imageS.

 

[Beetow]

FAQ: Doesn't the Bible say that God's mercy endures forever as per Ps 100:5, Ps
106:1, Ps 107:1, and Ps 118:1, et al?

REPLY: God's mercy is very durable; but His good sense knows when to say
"when". Examples of that are the people swept away by the hand of God in the
Flood, and those burned to death by the hand of God in Sodom and Gomorrah; and
the firstborn of man and beast slain by the hand of God on Passover night in Egypt.

It's possible to push God too far. For example:

• Hos 4:17 . . Ephraim is joined to idols; let him alone.

In other words: God instructed the prophet Hosea not to bother preaching in
Ephraim because He was fed up with them.

Down at the end of all with which we are familiar, the announcement below will be
made.

• Rev 22:11 . . Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the
righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.

In other words: the people to whom those words pertain, will be stuck with who
and what they are with no chance of ever being any different. That's good news for
the righteous and/or holy, whereas really bad news for folks who end up on the
wrong side of things. The ones in Hell will forever be unfit to be anywhere else.
_