What is hell?

[MedicBravo]

No, soul in the bible is defined as a LIVING BEING (Gen. 2:7, Rev. 13:15). Any object has a physical body, a LIVING BEING is a soul. In Rev. 18:13, "bodies and souls of men" are listed among the commodities of the traders, that's human trafficking. This living being is made of dirt, and when life ends, it will return to the dirt. "For dust you are, and to dust you shall return." That's the design, not punishment. You're making a work-based argument that actually aligns with Catholic teaching, not me. And you also deny the original sin by assuming that babies are born sinless.

Yeah, ok.
There is a difference between being tainted by sin per the Fall and choosing to sin. They are not the same.
You've no evidence to support babies go to Hell and suggesting they do is absurd. You're doing word play.
Note: Typing in all caps doesn't make you right.

 

[Beetow]

Judas goats are trained for use in slaughterhouses and herd control. In
stockyards, they lead sheep to slaughter; and are also used to lead other
animals to specific pens and on to trucks. The term is a reference to the
biblical traitor Judas Iscariot.

The phrase has also been used to describe goats utilized to locate feral goats
targeted for eradication. They're usually outfitted with a transmitter, painted
in red and then released. The goats then locate the remaining herds of feral
goats, allowing hunters with tracking devices to find and exterminate them.
The red paint marks the goat with the transmitter so the hunters know
which one not to shoot.

You know what can be even worse than going to Hell? Your own children
following you there: and they trusted you.

Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess
it's plausible.

A farmer went out to the barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak
a pull from his secret liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard
something behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy coming
towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever managed to
find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: It was easy; I
walked in your footprints.

One can only imagine the anguish that parents in the netherworld must feel
knowing that they inadvertently raised their children in an ideology that led
them down a road to the infernal regions and all the while sincerely believing
themselves doing the right thing. In other words: they actually Judas-goated
their children to follow mom and dad down there. For some families, the
only thing they have to look forward to in the afterlife is a sad reunion in fire
and despair.
_

 

[Beetow]

• Luke 16:22-25 . . It came to pass that a rich man died, and was buried. And in
Hades lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham on the other side of an impassible
barrier. And Abraham said: Son, remember . . .

I should think that one of the negative aspects of perdition is memory. How people
down there retain their memories sans the brain cells they left behind with their
corpse, I don't know; but they do. Apparently God has some sort of file transfer
protocol that silicon valley has yet to discover.

The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those
memories haunt us with terrible regret. Well; some folks' regrets can be
rationalized, but for others; their past will forever be an albatross hung around
their neck.
_

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Yeah, ok.
There is a difference between being tainted by sin per the Fall and choosing to sin. They are not the same.
You've no evidence to support babies go to Hell and suggesting they do is absurd. You're doing word play.
Note: Typing in all caps doesn't make you right.

That’s not word play. Same words mean very different concepts to different people, especially hell which is often confused with the Lake of Fire, and soul as well, so it must be clarified.

Yes, he who blasphemes the Son can be forgiven, he who blasphemes the Spirit cannot, that’s mercy for unknowingly sin and judgement for knowingly sin. But I don’t see how does that affect babies. All I’m saying is that, babies that die prematurely just go to the GRAVE. All are dead in transgressions. There’re plenty of verses to support that. And again, if they don’t have a spiritual birth, either by the Holy Spirit or a demonic unclean spirit, then they just perish.

 

[MedicBravo]

Words have multiple meanings themselves but a person can't make up their own definition of it.
Hell is suffering and damnation not getting a hotel room with a constant dripping faucet.
Really, no scripture to prove "babies that die prematurely go to the grave"?
Why would God force a baby spirit to stay that way for eternity? He wouldn't. Is is far more likely that any person who is a child of any age, spirit or glorified body isn't stuck that way but aged to a more optimal and appropriate body. He/she would also be given the age appropriate knowledge and maturity. Given God can do anything is that so hard to believe?
Funny you say "plenty of verses to support that" and yet provide none. The Vatican has purposefully hidden a lot from this world and Christians. Last I checked deceiving is the way of Satan.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Yeah, ok.
There is a difference between being tainted by sin per the Fall and choosing to sin. They are not the same.
You've no evidence to support babies go to Hell and suggesting they do is absurd. You're doing word play.
Note: Typing in all caps doesn't make you right.

You know what, all this time you’re bring emotion into this debate and trying to cloud my judgement with that, you make whoever that opposes you appear to be heartless, even infancidal. As meanwhile you apply unbiblical definitions on the words “hell” and “soul”, and you just keep repeating that it’s “absurd”, this is a typical leftist strategy to attack their opponent’s character and shut down the conversation. I know one when I see one, and I don’t take the bait.

 

[MedicBravo]

I'm not bringing any emotion. Don't make assumptions.
One skill I've learned over the years is to leave emotions out of a discussion.
As far as "you make whoever that opposes you appear to be heartless, even infancidal" that's escalating and ridiculous. Stay on topic not making such statements.
I'm not Leftist and stating such doesn't change reality.
Where have I "attacked your character"?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Funny you say "plenty of verses to support that" and yet provide none. The Vatican has purposefully hidden a lot from this world and Christians. Last I checked deceiving is the way of Satan.

“Through one man sin entered the world.” “He who doesn’t believe is condemned already.” “There is no righteous, no, not one.” “We are dead in our trespasses.” I mentioned all these in my previous posts, it’s your fault that you didn’t read.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I'm not bringing any emotion. Don't make assumptions.
One skill I've learned over the years is to leave emotions out of a discussion.
As far as "you make whoever that opposes you appear to be heartless, even infancidal" that's escalating and ridiculous. Stay on topic not making such statements.
I'm not Leftist and stating such doesn't change reality.
Where have I "attacked your character"?

You’re the one who went off topic by bringing baby into the discussion, not me. And don’t bother to deny of bringing in emotion, because “babies go to hell” by and of itself is an emotional argument. What if anybody who really had a baby that died prematurely? Won’t they be triggered? Won’t they get emotional and take it personal?

 

[MedicBravo]

“Through one man sin entered the world.” “He who doesn’t believe is condemned already.” “There is no righteous, no, not one.” “We are dead in our trespasses.” I mentioned all these in my previous posts, it’s your fault that you didn’t read.

You also neglect those who never experienced Jesus. Those who were born and died before then including babies.
Making more baseless statements isn't going to get you anywhere. If there is no opportunity to believe especially regarding babies and children they are treated differently.
God's mind and plan are far beyond human understanding so don't think you've "figured it out".
God is perfect and good is He not? He is by default and is the standard so He does not send babies and children to Hell.

The Bible speaks matter-of-factly about children who do not know enough “to reject the wrong and choose the right” (Isaiah 7:16).
People are guilty b/c they know and understand right and wrong so there is no excuse.
Babies and children do not know this. To think God would punish them when they cannot respond to or understand God and His message is absurd.

The principle Jesus lays down in John 9 is that God does not condemn people for things they are unable to do. “Sin is measured by the capacities or ability of people, and by their opportunities of knowing the truth. If people had no ability to do the will of God, they could incur no blame. If they have all proper ability, and no disposition, God holds them to be guilty” (Albert Barnes, New Testament Notes: Explanatory and Practical, ed. by Robert Frew, Baker Book House, Vol. 1, “Jn. 9:41”). According to this principle, babies and young children who are unable to accept or reject Christ are not held accountable for unbelief.

David testified he would reunite with his dead child after death in 2 Samuel 12:23 support the reasonable belief that infants go to heaven when they die. The same holds true for those with mental disabilities who cannot comprehend right and wrong.

2 Samuel 12:23 — American Standard Version (ASV)​

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You also neglect those who never experienced Jesus. Those who were born and died before then including babies.
Making more baseless statements isn't going to get you anywhere. If there is no opportunity to believe especially regarding babies and children they are treated differently.
God's mind and plan are far beyond human understanding so don't think you've "figured it out".
God is perfect and good is He not? He is by default and is the standard so He does not send babies and children to Hell.

The Bible speaks matter-of-factly about children who do not know enough “to reject the wrong and choose the right” (Isaiah 7:16).
People are guilty b/c they know and understand right and wrong so there is no excuse.
Babies and children do not know this. To think God would punish them when they cannot respond to or understand God and His message is absurd.

The principle Jesus lays down in John 9 is that God does not condemn people for things they are unable to do. “Sin is measured by the capacities or ability of people, and by their opportunities of knowing the truth. If people had no ability to do the will of God, they could incur no blame. If they have all proper ability, and no disposition, God holds them to be guilty” (Albert Barnes, New Testament Notes: Explanatory and Practical, ed. by Robert Frew, Baker Book House, Vol. 1, “Jn. 9:41”). According to this principle, babies and young children who are unable to accept or reject Christ are not held accountable for unbelief.

David testified he would reunite with his dead child after death in 2 Samuel 12:23 support the reasonable belief that infants go to heaven when they die. The same holds true for those with mental disabilities who cannot comprehend right and wrong.

2 Samuel 12:23 — American Standard Version (ASV)​

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.

This is hilarious. Isaiah 7:16 doesn't say children who do not know enough to reject good and choose evil. It says reject EVIL and choose GOOD. That needs maturity. If they don't, then they naturally choose evil, because that is human nature for self preservation. John 9:41 on the other hand is talking about holding believers who know enough and still choose evil accountable, same as the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That's referring to believers. For unbelievers, it's John 3:18. Are you gonna use Scripture against Scripture? Whoever does that is undermining the authority of the Scripture.

Just make it clear, God sends nobody to hell, everybody who ends up in hell enters into it voluntarily. Don't you dare putting it on God. It's not the manufacturer's fault if its device is out of commission after many years, or out of commission prematurely because the user doesn't use it in the proper way. You're doing the same thing Adam was doing in the Garden by blaming God for giving him Eve who gave him the forbidden fruit.

And at last, you're quoting man's teaching instead of the Word of God, and “Sin is measured by the capacities or ability of people" in particular is from work-based religious thought. Last time I checked, "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of ALL." Nice try.

 

[MedicBravo]

This is hilarious. Isaiah 7:16 doesn't say children who do not know enough to reject good and choose evil. It says reject EVIL and choose GOOD. That needs maturity. If they don't, then they naturally choose evil, because that is human nature for self preservation. John 9:41 on the other hand is talking about holding believers who know enough and still choose evil accountable, same as the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That's referring to believers. For unbelievers, it's John 3:18. Are you gonna use Scripture against Scripture? Whoever does that is undermining the authority of the Scripture.

Just make it clear, God sends nobody to hell, everybody who ends up in hell enters into it voluntarily. Don't you dare putting it on God. It's not the manufacturer's fault if its device is out of commission after many years, or out of commission prematurely because the user doesn't use it in the proper way. You're doing the same thing Adam was doing in the Garden by blaming God for giving him Eve who gave him the forbidden fruit.

And at last, you're quoting man's teaching instead of the Word of God, and “Sin is measured by the capacities or ability of people" in particular is from work-based religious thought. Last time I checked, "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of ALL." Nice try.

Wrong as usual. "If they don't, then they naturally choose evil."
Babies and children are not old nor mentally intelligent enough. A baby parroting "No." is not more evil than a 5 year old who knows what "No" means but not the authority they are saying "No." to.
People who are mentally competent enough choose their actions and destination. They cannot.
"Don't you dare putting it on God." - I'm not. Your infatuation with making baseless statements is a problem you should fix. I've never put God at fault. He is the Authority and your and my opinion is irrelevant.
The last statement is often used as an excuse. Babies and children are NOT old or mentally capable of that.
You act and use the same excuses everyone else does in this issue.
Your Google cherry picks aren't anything new.
God also taught inference; the act of concluding the most logical, common sense, and evidence backed information when very little is available. In fact, it's also taught in Criminal Justice and American Law at the basic 101 class level. What is said and not said. What is shown and not shown.
There are many who know more than you.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Wrong as usual. "If they don't, then they naturally choose evil."
Babies and children are not old nor mentally intelligent enough. A baby parroting "No." is not more evil than a 5 year old who knows what "No" means but not the authority they are saying "No." to.
People who are mentally competent enough choose their actions and destination. They cannot.
"Don't you dare putting it on God." - I'm not. Your infatuation with making baseless statements is a problem you should fix. I've never put God at fault. He is the Authority and your and my opinion is irrelevant.
The last statement is often used as an excuse. Babies and children are NOT old or mentally capable of that.
You act and use the same excuses everyone else does in this issue.
Your Google cherry picks aren't anything new.
God also taught inference; the act of concluding the most logical, common sense, and evidence backed information when very little is available. In fact, it's also taught in Criminal Justice and American Law at the basic 101 class level. What is said and not said. What is shown and not shown.
There are many who know more than you.

A baby doesn't need to be mentally intelligent to cry louder than other babies to draw caregiver's attention. A child doesn't need to be mentally intelligent to bully another children and take their toys. It's neither moral failure or personal choice, but human nature.

Whether I cherry picked or not, at least I built my arguments on the Scripture, while you're basing all of your argument on a false premise that human nature is inherently good and all evil is acquired. The Bible and reality say otherwise. God gave his one and only Son to die on the cross as an antidote for this sinful nature, that's God's mind and plan, consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

If any baby or child dies prematurely before they are "mentally intelligent" to know that, then first and foremost, I would acknowlege that it's a tragedy, this young soul is deprived of their opportunity to know Yeshua; then I would grieve with their parents and friends before jumping on a narrative about whether they go to hell or not and pointing fingers at either the dead or their caregivers or anybody else, because, again, that's the disciples' worldly mentality when they discussed with Yeshua about the man who was born blind.

"God also taught inference?" Yeah you're damn right on that, Yeshua absolutely stepped in, but you, the whole time, are focusing on that a hypothetical equivalence of that man's blindness condition instead of God's saving grace through Yeshua's miraculous healing.

 

[MedicBravo]

A baby doesn't need to be mentally intelligent to cry louder than other babies to draw caregiver's attention. A child doesn't need to be mentally intelligent to bully another children and take their toys. It's neither moral failure or personal choice, but human nature.

Whether I cherry picked or not, at least I built my arguments on the Scripture, while you're basing all of your argument on a false premise that human nature is inherently good and all evil is acquired. The Bible and reality say otherwise. God gave his one and only Son to die on the cross as an antidote for this sinful nature, that's God's mind and plan, consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

If any baby or child dies prematurely before they are "mentally intelligent" to know that, then first and foremost, I would acknowlege that it's a tragedy, this young soul is deprived of their opportunity to know Yeshua; then I would grieve with their parents and friends before jumping on a narrative about whether they go to hell or not and pointing fingers at either the dead or their caregivers or anybody else, because, again, that's the disciples' worldly mentality when they discussed with Yeshua about the man who was born blind.

"God also taught inference?" Yeah you're damn right on that, Yeshua absolutely stepped in, but you, the whole time, are focusing on that a hypothetical equivalence of that man's blindness condition instead of God's saving grace through Yeshua's miraculous healing.

First paragraph is irrelevant. Regardless of your excuses those actions are not evil. Again, they do not have full understand and you've shown you don't understand this.
"you're basing all of your argument on a false premise that human nature is inherently good and all evil is acquired." - You misunderstand, again. You were a baby and child at one point but were you mature minded and capable of good and evil? No.
Ex: While on a deployment I had a lot of experience in a Muslim country will people of all ages. Children as young as 5 who still can't form good sentences and pretend they are things they will never be (like another group), are taught to use handguns. I had one do the "slit your throat" motion to me and my fellow soldiers as we drove by.
Who's at fault here? Does that child truly know evil and has accepted it or have the evil parents who brainwashed him/her at fault? On either end no baby or even teenager truly knows both sides. None have enough real world experience and no book, podcast, movie, etc. can teach them that.
You're going off topic. I could easily tell earlier that your emotions have gotten the better of you.
You still can NOT give any scripture to support babies and children go to Hell knowing full well what they did.
There is an Age of Accountability and you do not know it.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

First paragraph is irrelevant. Regardless of your excuses those actions are not evil. Again, they do not have full understand and you've shown you don't understand this.
"you're basing all of your argument on a false premise that human nature is inherently good and all evil is acquired." - You misunderstand, again. You were a baby and child at one point but were you mature minded and capable of good and evil? No.
Ex: While on a deployment I had a lot of experience in a Muslim country will people of all ages. Children as young as 5 who still can't form good sentences and pretend they are things they will never be (like another group), are taught to use handguns. I had one do the "slit your throat" motion to me and my fellow soldiers as we drove by.
Who's at fault here? Does that child truly know evil and has accepted it or have the evil parents who brainwashed him/her at fault? On either end no baby or even teenager truly knows both sides. None have enough real world experience and no book, podcast, movie, etc. can teach them that.
You're going off topic. I could easily tell earlier that your emotions have gotten the better of you.
You still can NOT give any scripture to support babies and children go to Hell knowing full well what they did.
There is an Age of Accountability and you do not know it.

I have given you John 3:18, and you still deny it. If what you said about your deployment in that muslim country is true, then thank you for your service, sir, you're an honorable man instead of just a random internet troll, but unfortunately you're still obsessed with "whose fault it is" which the disciples asked about the blind man in John 9:1-3. That's not a solution and it's not gonna fix the problem. The only answer is Yeshua.

Has emotion gotten the better of me? Only when it comes to eternal damnation, that ought to get any believer emotional because that's the consequence of a broken relationship with God. Bringing babies into the conversation, though, is just a trick to push your opponent into a corner. You're the one who gets emotional by incessantly ranting about babies and children in a thread about hell itself, which may have based off of your experience, and I can empathize with that, but I won't apologize for not falling into your trap, not pointing fingers and not making any judgement call.

The truth is, neither you or I or anybody gets to decide whether a babies go to hell or not, only God does at His throne. If you wanna talk about accountability, the answer is written in Luke 12:47-48: "that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more." Anything else you say is just your humble opinion.

 

[Beetow]

The wrath of God is interesting. For example:

• Isa 13:9 . . Behold, the day of The Lord comes-- cruel; with both wrath and fierce
anger

The Hebrew word for "wrath" in that statement is 'ebrah (eb-raw') which indicates
an outburst of passion. In other words: the wrath of God won't be weeping big wet
crocodile tears while it's slamming the dead at the Great White Throne event
depicted at Rev 20:11-15; no, they will be terminated with extreme prejudice; viz:
their judgment will be administered with choler. (cf. Isa 63:1-6, Rev 19:15)

Webster's defines "fierce" as a behavior exhibited by humans and animals that
inspires terror because of the wild and menacing aspect of fury in attack. Ferocity is
an aspect commonly seen among roaring, snarling lions savagely attacking prey.
There's neither sportsmanship nor sympathy in ferocity; only sheer terror, brutality,
and blood lust.

"cruel" is defined as: disposed to inflict pain or suffering; viz: devoid of humane
feelings

• Heb 10:27 . . A certain fearful expectation of . . . fiery indignation

"fiery indignation" is quite a bit more severe than ordinary indignation. It speaks of
someone who is seriously ticked off; and so angry that they're actually red in the
face.

There are people out there in pews all around the world who have been so coddled
by sappy versions of Christianity that they have no concept of the magnitude of the
lethal tsunami of rage and violence coming their way to get them.

Another interesting aspect of the wrath of God is the person appointed to
administer it-- none other than the sweet little baby away in a manger.

• John 5:22-23 . .The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the
Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

• Acts 17:31 . . For God has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by
the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from
the dead.

• Rev 19:15 . . He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the winepress
of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
_

 

[KingJ]

The rest of the passages all rest on the word aion which is wrongly translated forever or everlasting. That's simply wrong.

In these passages the word bolded "world" is the Greek word aion. It clearly doesn't mean eternal or everlasting as each of these passages speaks of the end of the aion. Something that ends is not and cannot be eternal or everlasting. This begs the question, why do the translators translate this same Greek word as eternal and world? Well, they obviously can't translate it eternal when it's speaking of its end. Imagine if they translated it, till the end of eternity. That doesn't make much sense, does it? So, they had to find another word. However, the translation world isn't very good either. The word literally means an age. Some translations get it correct when they translate it, till the end of the age. when it's translated eternal or everlasting we have a clear case of translator bias. The translators are letting their theology drive the interpretation instead of letting the interpretation drive their theology.

Notice in Hebrews 9:26 we have the word "world" twice. Where i'ts underlined the Greek word is cosmos. Where it's bolded it's aion. Cosmos means an orderly system. Aion means an age. Cosmos can be translated world as in the worldly system. However, there is no reason to translate aion as world. It means an age.

Also, look at Rev. 20:10. It speaks of three beings. No one else. How does this prove that man suffers eternal torment when it doesn't even mention man? It doesn't. One of the problems is that people just see the words eternal torment and apply them wherever they choose. That's not exegesis, it's eisegesis.

Disagree. This translation has already been debated for a while. You need to consider a verse like Rev 14:11 that says ''they have no rest day or night''.

But we've got even more. You posted Jude 1:7. This passage actually refutes what you've said.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Disagree. The parallel is that when God drops the hammer, He drops the hammer. The hammer in the latter case is eternal torment.

Now I would suggest that we cannot ignore these passages either. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die'. He didn't say the soul that sins shall suffer eternal torment. Paul said, "the wages of sin is death". He didn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment.

God said to Adam and Eve that they would die when they ate the forbidden fruit.

There is thus context given to 'death', namely 'out of His presence'.

Are God and Paul both wrong? If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then one must answer yes to this question. What say you?

What say I XD. I say, ''Accept me or ''die'' is a wicked statement''. A statement a God who says He is righteous in all His ways cannot make Psalm 145:17.

The amount of evidence against eternal torment is overwhelming. Yet many hold on to a few passages taken out of context and base their arguments on these and the wrong translation of aion.

Don't agree. Just remind me, you are a Calvinist correct?

Here's another problem presented by the eternal torment doctrine. Paul says clearly that the Father alone has immortality, no one else. That means that man doesn't. Since man doesn't have immortality, he will die. The "only" way man could suffer eternal torment is if God specifically kept him alive for that purpose. Are we willing to go there? How can a God who the Bible calls, love, do such a thing?

God can end all life for sure. But it seems that God really likes His ''Human and angel creation''. He has gone through great lengths to let us ''all'' know how special we are to Him.

Eternal torment is where we must go, yes. I would think it be ''obvious'' that a God as good as ours only be able to give those who reject Him eternal life to.

You really do need to grasp the fact that the statement ''Accept me or die'' is wicked.

I would like to think that every Christian on this planet not accept that if God had to do it.

You need to consider a lot of scripture. Scripture like the way God talks to the devil. The way the demons asked why Jesus came to torment them before their time. None of this points to or do we hear the fallen say ''oh cruel God, have you come to kill me?''.

 

[Butch5]

Disagree. This translation has already been debated for a while. You need to consider a verse like Rev 14:11 that says ''they have no rest day or night''.

You're free to disagree, however, that just makes you wrong. You're not disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with Jesus and the apostles. They said it ends. Why didn't you address the passages? They're still there. Jesus and the apostles said the aion ends. I could show you many more passages where the aion ends. How many do you need? The real question is why did you just brush these passages aside? How do you expect to find the truth of Scripture if you're brushing aside passages that don't agree with your theology?

Regarding Rev 14:11, look at the context. Those people are alive. You posted,

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 14:11.

The word translated "worship" is present active. That means they are worshipping. These people are alive. The next verse, 12 verifies this.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 14:12.

John says, "here" is the patients of the saint: "here" are they that keep the commandments of God. The word translated "here" means, at that location. The saints are at that location. Is it your contention that the saints are suffering eternal torment in the Lake of Fire? No, these people are alive and worshipping the Beast and the saints are there.

It's things like this that show me that many people who argue this position just use proof texts. If one actually reads the passage in context it's clear that these people are alive. The problem is, people see torment and forever and ever and immediately "assume" their doctrine. Here's something else to consider. Do you really believe there is day and night in this place of eternal torment? If this Lake of Fire is somewhere down in the earth when the ghosts of the dead are tormented, how could there be day and night? Doesn't that require the sun?

Disagree. The parallel is that when God drops the hammer, He drops the hammer. The hammer in the latter case is eternal torment.

Again< you're free to disagree, but you're disagreeing with Scripture. Jude states palinly that what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was aionios fire or as the English puts it, eternal fire. Well, It's clear beyond any doubt that those two cities are not still burning. It was just them it was also the cities in the plains around them. That would be one massive fire. It would be visible from space. But yet it's not there This shows beyond any doubt that aionios fire is NOT eternal.

God said to Adam and Eve that they would die when they ate the forbidden fruit.

There is thus context given to 'death', namely 'out of His presence'.

No, God didn't say, if you eat of the tree of Good and Evil you will be cast out of my presence. He said Adam would die. What was that death? God explains it Himself; we don't have to guess.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 3:17–19.

The death Adam would die is returning to the dust.

What say I XD. I say, ''Accept me or ''die'' is a wicked statement''. A statement a God who says He is righteous in all His ways cannot make Psalm 145:17.

You avoided the question.

Are God and Paul both wrong? If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then one must answer yes to this question. What say you?

Don't agree. Just remind me, you are a Calvinist correct?

If you disagree, show me where this teaching is found in Scripture. Taking a few passages out of context is not teaching. Where do God, the Prophets, Jesus, or the apostles, layout a teaching showing the consequences of sin.

To answer your question, no I am not a Calvinist.

God can end all life for sure. But it seems that God really likes His ''Human and angel creation''. He has gone through great lengths to let us ''all'' know how special we are to Him.

Eternal torment is where we must go, yes. I would think it be ''obvious'' that a God as good as ours only be able to give those who reject Him eternal life to.

It's not a question of can He. The question is, does He. Again, what did He say? 'The soul that sins shall die'. He didn't say anything about eternal torment. God could give eternal life to everyone. However, that's not what we find in the Bible. In the Bible eternal life is "only" given to believers.

You really do need to grasp the fact that the statement ''Accept me or die'' is wicked.

I never said anything about the statement. You brought it up. However, if that's wicked, how much more so is, accept me or burn forever? Do you think it's better to burn forever than to simply die?

I would like to think that every Christian on this planet not accept that if God had to do it.

You need to consider a lot of scripture. Scripture like the way God talks to the devil. The way the demons asked why Jesus came to torment them before their time. None of this points to or do we hear the fallen say ''oh cruel God, have you come to kill me?''.

I need to consider a lot of Scripture? I've considered a lot of Scripture on this subject. I've literally studied it for years. Notice, the demons didn't ask if Jesus came to torment them forever. Let's look at what God said through David about the wicked.



Psalm 37

A Psalm of David.

1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers,
Neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.

3 Trust in the LORD, and do good;
So shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
4 Delight thyself also in the LORD;
And he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

5 Commit thy way unto the LORD;
Trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light,
And thy judgment as the noonday.

7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him:
Fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way,
Because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath:
Fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off:
But those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be:
Yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth;
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

12 The wicked plotteth against the just,
And gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13 The Lord shall laugh at him:
For he seeth that his day is coming.

14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow,
To cast down the poor and needy,
And to slay such as be of upright conversation.
15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart,
And their bows shall be broken.

16 A little that a righteous man hath
Is better than the riches of many wicked.
17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken:
But the LORD upholdeth the righteous.

18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright:
And their inheritance shall be for ever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time:
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

20 But the wicked shall perish,
And the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs:
They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again:
But the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.
22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth;
And they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD:
And he delighteth in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down:
For the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

25 I have been young, and now am old;
Yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken,
Nor his seed begging bread.
26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth;
And his seed is blessed.

27 Depart from evil, and do good;
And dwell for evermore.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment,
And forsaketh not his saints;

They are preserved for ever:
But the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell therein for ever.

30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom,
And his tongue talketh of judgment.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
None of his steps shall slide.

32 The wicked watcheth the righteous,
And seeketh to slay him.
33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand,
Nor condemn him when he is judged.

34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way,
And he shall exalt thee to inherit the land:
When the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power,
And spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not:
Yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright:
For the end of that man is peace.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together:
The end of the wicked shall be cut off.

39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD:
He is their strength in the time of trouble.
40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them:
He shall deliver them from the wicked,
And save them, because they trust in him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 37

Just in this one Psalm we see the wicked, cut off, perish, are destroyed, passed away, could not be found, shall not be, and his sword will enter his own heart. In all of those descriptions of what will happen to the wicked, there is no mention of eternal torment. In verse 20 the Hebrew word translated consume means to disappear. The wicked shall disappear, in smoke they shall disappear. That sure sounds like the Lake of Fire to me. They shall be burned up and disappear as smoke.

Seriously, I would urge you forgo your theology and take a serious look at the Scriptures. A theology built on proof texts is a house built on sand. We know what Jesus said about building our house on sand.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You're free to disagree, however, that just makes you wrong. You're not disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with Jesus and the apostles. They said it ends. Why didn't you address the passages? They're still there. Jesus and the apostles said the aion ends. I could show you many more passages where the aion ends. How many do you need? The real question is why did you just brush these passages aside? How do you expect to find the truth of Scripture if you're brushing aside passages that don't agree with your theology?

Regarding Rev 14:11, look at the context. Those people are alive. You posted,

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 14:11.

The word translated "worship" is present active. That means they are worshipping. These people are alive. The next verse, 12 verifies this.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 14:12.

John says, "here" is the patients of the saint: "here" are they that keep the commandments of God. The word translated "here" means, at that location. The saints are at that location. Is it your contention that the saints are suffering eternal torment in the Lake of Fire? No, these people are alive and worshipping the Beast and the saints are there.

It's things like this that show me that many people who argue this position just use proof texts. If one actually reads the passage in context it's clear that these people are alive. The problem is, people see torment and forever and ever and immediately "assume" their doctrine. Here's something else to consider. Do you really believe there is day and night in this place of eternal torment? If this Lake of Fire is somewhere down in the earth when the ghosts of the dead are tormented, how could there be day and night? Doesn't that require the sun?



Again< you're free to disagree, but you're disagreeing with Scripture. Jude states palinly that what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was aionios fire or as the English puts it, eternal fire. Well, It's clear beyond any doubt that those two cities are not still burning. It was just them it was also the cities in the plains around them. That would be one massive fire. It would be visible from space. But yet it's not there This shows beyond any doubt that aionios fire is NOT eternal.

No, God didn't say, if you eat of the tree of Good and Evil you will be cast out of my presence. He said Adam would die. What was that death? God explains it Himself; we don't have to guess.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 3:17–19.

The death Adam would die is returning to the dust.

You avoided the question.

Are God and Paul both wrong? If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then one must answer yes to this question. What say you?

If you disagree, show me where this teaching is found in Scripture. Taking a few passages out of context is not teaching. Where do God, the Prophets, Jesus, or the apostles, layout a teaching showing the consequences of sin.

To answer your question, no I am not a Calvinist.

It's not a question of can He. The question is, does He. Again, what did He say? 'The soul that sins shall die'. He didn't say anything about eternal torment. God could give eternal life to everyone. However, that's not what we find in the Bible. In the Bible eternal life is "only" given to believers.

I never said anything about the statement. You brought it up. However, if that's wicked, how much more so is, accept me or burn forever? Do you think it's better to burn forever than to simply die?

I need to consider a lot of Scripture? I've considered a lot of Scripture on this subject. I've literally studied it for years. Notice, the demons didn't ask if Jesus came to torment them forever. Let's look at what God said through David about the wicked.



Psalm 37

A Psalm of David.

1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers,
Neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.

3 Trust in the LORD, and do good;
So shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
4 Delight thyself also in the LORD;
And he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

5 Commit thy way unto the LORD;
Trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light,
And thy judgment as the noonday.

7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him:
Fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way,
Because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath:
Fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off:
But those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be:
Yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth;
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

12 The wicked plotteth against the just,
And gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13 The Lord shall laugh at him:
For he seeth that his day is coming.

14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow,
To cast down the poor and needy,
And to slay such as be of upright conversation.
15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart,
And their bows shall be broken.

16 A little that a righteous man hath
Is better than the riches of many wicked.
17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken:
But the LORD upholdeth the righteous.

18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright:
And their inheritance shall be for ever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time:
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

20 But the wicked shall perish,
And the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs:
They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again:
But the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.
22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth;
And they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD:
And he delighteth in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down:
For the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

25 I have been young, and now am old;
Yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken,
Nor his seed begging bread.
26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth;
And his seed is blessed.

27 Depart from evil, and do good;
And dwell for evermore.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment,
And forsaketh not his saints;

They are preserved for ever:
But the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell therein for ever.

30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom,
And his tongue talketh of judgment.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
None of his steps shall slide.

32 The wicked watcheth the righteous,
And seeketh to slay him.
33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand,
Nor condemn him when he is judged.

34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way,
And he shall exalt thee to inherit the land:
When the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

35 I have seen the wicked in great power,
And spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not:
Yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright:
For the end of that man is peace.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together:
The end of the wicked shall be cut off.

39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD:
He is their strength in the time of trouble.
40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them:
He shall deliver them from the wicked,
And save them, because they trust in him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 37

Just in this one Psalm we see the wicked, cut off, perish, are destroyed, passed away, could not be found, shall not be, and his sword will enter his own heart. In all of those descriptions of what will happen to the wicked, there is no mention of eternal torment. In verse 20 the Hebrew word translated consume means to disappear. The wicked shall disappear, in smoke they shall disappear. That sure sounds like the Lake of Fire to me. They shall be burned up and disappear as smoke.

Seriously, I would urge you forgo your theology and take a serious look at the Scriptures. A theology built on proof texts is a house built on sand. We know what Jesus said about building our house on sand.

I have learend that opposition to the concept of eternal torment, which leads to the disbelief in the existence of hell, is usually based on a quid pro quo or tit for tat mentality, that eternal punishment is unfair for limited life of sin. The catholic doctrine of purgatory is more acceptable because it's more compatible with this worldly mentality, that once a sinner completes his sentence in this purgatory prison, he can go free, but that's not biblical.

The punishment in the Lake of Fire is eternal because God is eternal, and sin offends God, it cannot be tolerated in the presence of God. All who end up in there are worshipers of the Beast, so they have pledged allegiance to the Beast even though they might believe that it's the messiah, just like the Israelites worshipping the golden calf as Elohim that delivered them from Egypt. Therefore, they get to unite with the idol(s) they worship for eternity, meanwhile saints get to unite with God in New Jerusalem for eternity.

So it begs the question, what is the motivation behind your denial of eternal fire? Is it because the Scripture really states otherwise? Or because it's hard to accept? You know when Yeshua preached about partaking his blood and his body, it was highly offensive and many of his followers went away, not because they didn't understand his words, but they understood it perfectly well and it OFFENDED them. Years of study won't help in this, because oftentimes research is me-search, information is affirmation, the abundance of knowledge only strengthens what you already believe instead of changing it.

 

[Twistie]

“Through one man sin entered the world.” “He who doesn’t believe is condemned already.” “There is no righteous, no, not one.” “We are dead in our trespasses.” I mentioned all these in my previous posts, it’s your fault that you didn’t read.

Yeah, ok.
There is a difference between being tainted by sin per the Fall and choosing to sin. They are not the same.
You've no evidence to support babies go to Hell and suggesting they do is absurd. You're doing word play.
Note: Typing in all caps doesn't make you right.

He'll is total separation from YH
Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp.