What is the best analogy to explain the Trinity?

[Butch5]

None of those say that in my Bible.
In fact, just the opposite.

Prov 8:22; "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
Prov 8:23; "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
Prov 8:24; "When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water.
Prov 8:25; "Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth;
Prov 8:26; While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world.
Prov 8:27; "When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
Prov 8:28; When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed,
Prov 8:29; When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Prov 8:30; Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,

Jesus was always there. Before the Universe was created.

Everlasting is a mostranslation of Olam. Here is how the Nets Septuagint renders these passages.

Proverbs 8:23–25 (NETS (Primary Texts)): 23 Before the present age he founded me,
in the beginning.
24 Before he made the earth and before he made the depths,
before he brought forth the springs of the waters,
25 before the mountains were established
and before all the hills, he begets me.

I agree Jesus was there before the creation. He created it.

Col 1:15; He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16; For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17; He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Just because He was the "firstborn of all creation", doesn't mean He didn't exist before creation. He existed before the universe was created.

Yes, He existed before Creation. But that doesn't make Him eternal. He was the first begotten.

 

[B-A-C]

Everlasting is a mostranslation of Olam

I've noticed everytime the Bible disagrees with your theology...the Bibe is wrong.
This is why I find it difficult to discuss things with you.

So, the difference in the passages is simply based on what the translators believe.

The translations are all wrong, you are right. Of course they are.

 

[Butch5]

I've noticed everytime the Bible disagrees with your theology...the Bibe is wrong.
This is why I find it difficult to discuss things with you.

i

The translations are all wrong, you are right. Of course they are.

 

[Charlie24]

Everlasting is a mostranslation of Olam. Here is how the Nets Septuagint renders these passages.

Proverbs 8:23–25 (NETS (Primary Texts)): 23 Before the present age he founded me,
in the beginning.
24 Before he made the earth and before he made the depths,
before he brought forth the springs of the waters,
25 before the mountains were established
and before all the hills, he begets me.

I agree Jesus was there before the creation. He created it.


Yes, He existed before Creation. But that doesn't make Him eternal. He was the first begotten.

The first begotten of the Father, the first begotten of creation, the first begotten of the resurrection, all refer to the humanity of Christ, the incarnation.

It's referring to what He came to this earth to do in redeeming man from his sin and bringing man back into relationship with the Father.

The Father/Son relationship exists only by and through God's plan of redemption for man. If there had been no need for Christ to come to redeem man, there would have been no need for this Father/Son relationship.

God made the decree at some unknown time in past infinity that "The Word" (who we now know as Jesus Christ) is His Son who would fulfil His plan of redemption for mankind.

John plainly told us "The Word" (Jesus Christ) is God and was made flesh and dwelt among us. I have already shown you the verse that shows us that the Son of God has no beginning of day and no end of life. This means that Jesus Christ is eternal just as the Father in eternal.

Hebrew 7:3
"Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

Now if you cannot or will not accept this as truth, then you have chosen to deny the Scripture straight-up, no if's and's or but's about it.

 

[Butch5]

I've noticed everytime the Bible disagrees with your theology...the Bibe is wrong.
This is why I find it difficult to discuss things with you.

I didn't say the Bible was wrong. I said it was mistranslated. The translators are wrong. I posted the NETS Septuagint. Why didn't the translators translate olam as everlasting if that's what it means? The NETS is some of the most recent scholarship. The KJV, while I like it, was done with much more limited scholarship. Not to mention that the KVJ contains the Masoretic text which is from around 800 Ad. The Septuagint is much older and is what Jesus and the apostles quoted from. So, why didn't they translate olam as everlasting? Maybe it's because the saw these passages.

KJV Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations. (Exod. 40:15 KJV)

Numbers 25:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel. (Num. 25:13 KJV)

Is the priesthood of Aaron everlasting?

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after (Heb. 7:1 KJV)

According to Paul, the priesthood of Aaron came to an end. If it came to an end, how is it everlasting? It seems we have two options, either Paul is wrong or the translators are wrong.


19 All the vessels of the tabernacle in all the service thereof, and all the pins thereof, and all the pins of the court, shall be of brass.
20 And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always.
21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
(Exod. 27:19-21 KJV)

Was this statute forever? Were they still doing it after the tabernacle was gone? Obviously not. It ended. Again, something the translators said was eternal ended.

We find this all over Scripture.

The translations are all wrong, you are right. Of course they are.

I've just given you a few passages. We can do the same with the New Testament.

My friend, you should know I don't just throw out random stuff. If you want to discuss things why not research what I say before making comments like this?

Look up Theological Bias. Here's a statement from a senior translator of the NASB. The bolding is mine.



"Theological bias has a negative connotation as something to be avoided, and in general, I think it is. But I do not think it would be realistic to argue that Bible translation can be done without theological bias. It is not simply a matter of whether the translator has a theological agenda or not; there are passages in which all the choices of wording necessarily reflect theological positions. Furthermore, if we are going to be completely objective, even orthodoxy is a bias. That is, it is by definition an opinion that inclines or prejudices the translator toward a particular choice of wording when his choices all have theological implications."

DR. DON WILKINS: B.A. UC Irvine, M.Div. Talbot Seminary, Th.M. Talbot Seminary, M.A. UCLA, Ph.D. UCLA. He has worked with The Lockman Foundation (TLF) as a senior translator since 1992 on the NASB.

So, if theological bias inclines the translator to choose certain words. What words do you suppose Trinitarian translators will choose when it speaks of Jesus and olam? I think it's pretty obvious. They're not going to say Jesus is eternal but it's only for a while. They're going to choose the wording that they believe is correct and that belief is what you see in their translations. All translators do it. It's like the author said, you can't avoid it.

 

[Charlie24]

The first begotten of the Father, the first begotten of creation, the first begotten of the resurrection, all refer to the humanity of Christ, the incarnation.

It's referring to what He came to this earth to do in redeeming man from his sin and bringing man back into relationship with the Father.

The Father/Son relationship exists only by and through God's plan of redemption for man. If there had been no need for Christ to come to redeem man, there would have been no need for this Father/Son relationship.

God made the decree at some unknown time in past infinity that "The Word" (who we now know as Jesus Christ) is His Son who would fulfil His plan of redemption for mankind.

John plainly told us "The Word" (Jesus Christ) is God and was made flesh and dwelt among us. I have already shown you the verse that shows us that the Son of God has no beginning of day and no end of life. This means that Jesus Christ is eternal just as the Father in eternal.

Hebrew 7:3
"Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

Now if you cannot or will not accept this as truth, then you have chosen to deny the Scripture straight-up, no if's and's or but's about it.

You know, Butch, you're having a similar problem I refer to as the Catholicism Problem. The Catholics can see Christ as the son of the virgin Mary, but they can't see it's only in humanity, and not Deity. You are having a similar problem in seeing His Deity as God.

 

[lentz]

Jesus didn't say it. Look at the passage not the red words.

John 3:13–16 (KJV 1900): 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

When the statement was made Jesus was in Heaven. How exactly did Nicodemus come to Jesus by night if Jesus was in Heaven? Obviously he didn't. Those are John's words not Jesus' words. John is the one who said, for God so loved the world, not Jesus.

Jesus didn’t talk with Nicodemus that night? John just wrote something?
Son you are badly confused

 

[Christ4Ever]

Nick,

I didn't mention this before because I has hoped we debate the subject on its merits. However, since it's come up
I could also say the same but have refrained from doing so. If what I said is blasphemy then how isn't the claim you guys have been making in this entire thread?

Is something not blasphemy simply because a lot of people believe it?

I don't see how what I said is blasphemy, but if it is how is it any different thanwhat you guys are arguing?

I mean the idea that God consists of three persons? Since we're talking about blasphemy let's break it down. Paul said there is one God the Father and Jesus said theFather is th only true God. God says He is God and there is no other. He says He is God Almight. The doctrine you guys are arguing for says no. There's not one almighty, there are three.

From the Athanasian Creed

"Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other."

Nothing is before or after. Three equal almighties.

Beside the fact that that's impossible. Almighty means All Mighty, not partially mighty. It puts two others on equal footing with the Father who both Paul and Jesus say is the only God.

So I ask, is it blasphemy to give God's glory others?

Jesus said to the Apostles, the time is coming when you will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

However, in the doctrine we have three coequals who are worshipped.

I ask, is it blasphemy to worship anyone other than God?

Remember, Both Jesus and Paul said there is one God and it's the Father.

The Trinitarian has a conundrum here. Does he believe Scripture, the words of Jesus and Paul, or does he reject them. If he accepts them then he's faced with the problem that the doctrine blasphemes God. If he rejects them in favor of the Trinity, he's rejecting the God he serves, unless of course he doesn't believe the Bible is God's word in which case he has no dilemma.

The doctrine robs God of His glory and it diminishes Christ's sacrifice.

I mean, you may think what I posted is blasphemy, I don't. But, if it is, which do think God the Father would rather see? A ridiculous statement or people giving His, honor, glory, and worship to others?

And no one can equivocate here with the word God. Because both Jesus and Paul said the one God is the Father. So worship, glory, and honor, to anyone else is not to the Father.

And, this is in addition to all of the other issues I've posted.

Dear Butch5,
I’ll toss this out for you to consider.

You like to say “begotten” of the pre-existent Christ. I ask you Begotten of whom? It could not be God the Father, since of course He could not be the Father because the Father did not exist as such.

If God then begot the Christ as His Son from His essence, and He then became the Father at the same time that Jesus became the Son, then God now exists in Father and Son. You might as well include the Holy Spirit as making it all possible by the essence of God. If the Son, has the essence of God the Father who did not exist until the Son was “begotten”, and the Son has none of His own essence doesn’t it mean that He is and has always been eternal, though now God is now also the Son and why they can always be in agreement?

Note: Keep in mind that the material we were made of is not eternal if you decide to use the human dad/son analogy to explain it. This also takes care of your law of non-contradiction and allows for the Trinity to be true.

Your quote:

"From the Athanasian Creed

"Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.""

Your thoughts?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC (Hopefully)
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[BlessedBeMyRock]

About to go to work.
Enjoy! (Not mine)

My friend, there is no such thing as a trinity. It is a doctrine of devils; denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. There are no "three persons in God". There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[Christ4Ever]

My friend, there is no such thing as a trinity. It is a doctrine of devils; denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. There are no "three persons in God". There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Dear BlessedBeMyRock,
If you have nothing to contribute but your own opinion, then it would be better left unsaid.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. Since it appears you are unaware of the site you joined happens to believe in the Trinity please reread the Statement of Faith for Talk Jesus located at the bottom of each page. To God be the Glory! \o/

 

[BlessedBeMyRock]

Dear BlessedBeMyRock,
If you have nothing to contribute but your own opinion, then it would be better left unsaid.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. Since it appears you are unaware of the site you joined happens to believe in the Trinity please reread the Statement of Faith for Talk Jesus located at the bottom of each page. To God be the Glory! \o/

Greetings, neighbor. With all due respect, I have not given you my opinion. I gave you the word of God. For it is written that if any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God. And the words of the LORD are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

 

[Charlie24]

Deja vu, I thought all of this was over.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Greetings, neighbor. With all due respect, I have not given you my opinion. I gave you the word of God. For it is written that if any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God. And the words of the LORD are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Dear BlessedBeMyRock,
Let me correct you again. No, you gave your opinion. I saw no Scripture in anything that you wrote. Without which it is exactly as I stated.
If you'd like to add scripture, that would be acceptable. As you can see this discussion has been ongoing, so your contribution would be welcomed. However, as an addition please do not use the trigger words that you did, for they do nothing in furthering the conversation, or in having any dialogue whatsoever. You may believe it to be true, but please keep them to yourself for the sake of furthering the discussion at hand.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. I hope you did read the Statement of Faith for the site. The link of which is located at the bottom of each page. \o/

 

[Christ4Ever]

Deja vu, I thought all of this was over.

Apparently not.

 

[Charlie24]

Apparently not.

For the sake of the Forum, I'm glad I'm not a moderator, lol.

 

[Christ4Ever]

For the sake of the Forum, I'm glad I'm not a moderator, lol.

You never know Brother!
God's callings are mysterious and usually very unexpected!
\o/

 

[Charlie24]

You never know Brother!
God's callings are mysterious and usually very unexpected!
\o/

I was told that tolerance grows with Grace, but I think I missed that Sunday School lesson.

 

[BlessedBeMyRock]

Dear BlessedBeMyRock,
Let me correct you again. No, you gave your opinion. I saw no Scripture in anything that you wrote. Without which it is exactly as I stated.
If you'd like to add scripture, that would be acceptable. As you can see this discussion has been ongoing, so your contribution would be welcomed. However, as an addition please do not use the trigger words that you did, for they do nothing in furthering the conversation, or in having any dialogue whatsoever. You may believe it to be true, but please keep them to yourself for the sake of furthering the discussion at hand.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. I hope you did read the Statement of Faith for the site. The link of which is located at the bottom of each page. \o/

Sir, the reason why you saw "no scripture" is because you have not his word abiding in you. He that knoweth God heareth me; he that is not of God heareth not me. Hereby know I the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear.

 

[Charlie24]

Sir, the reason why you saw "no scripture" is because you have not his word abiding in you. He that knoweth God heareth me; he that is not of God heareth not me. Hereby know I the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear.

Now remember Nick, tolerance grows with Grace, lolol.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Now remember Nick, tolerance grows with Grace, lolol.

Dear Brother,
Leave well enough alone.
They are just getting their feet wet here on Talk Jesus.
We need to be gracious in allowing them time to get acclimated.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><