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What is... the "church"?

I think some people are really struggling with this. I already said the church is within the individual. I already said the church exists globally.
I don't have a problem with either of those things.

But what's wrong with it existing locally in your neighborhood? What's wrong with it existing in your sphere of influence?
Nobody is talking about friendship with the world. The church is not the world. But the church is other believers besides you.
People in your town, on your block. Where you work... what's wrong with getting to know them and love them?
You may not be able to do anything about what's happening in Africa, or Australia, or the US, or the UK, or Russia, or China...
but you can do something about what's happening your neighborhood. You can do something for the church in your town.

Some people really seem to have a hard heart when it comes to loving other people. I'm not going to be part of a group no matter what.


Perhaps.. but have you met any of these people face to face? Hugged them? Do you know them... not know "about" them.. know them.
What's my favorite color? What's my wife's name? What is the name of my oldest child? What is my biggest hang-up? What is my biggest fear?
Are my parent still alive? Are all my brothers and sisters still alive? Why was I in the hospital for 3 months? Have you ever given me anything besides prayers?
Food, shelter, clothing? (Not that I currently need these things, but I have needed some of them in the past)

If you don't know me, and I don't know you. How can we really love one another. Love is more than words.. Love is an action.

John 13:35; By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”


I love you brother, same as I love all saved souls, I don't have to hug you, but I still love you.

I live i the UK, lets say my kids live in USA and Australia, I loved them where ever they are, just because I cannot hug them does not mean I don't love them, or love them less.

We love one another as Christ loves us, where ever we are.

Lets say you were put in prison for your faith in Jesus, you were in an area not allowing visitors, would I love you less NO, would I love you less because I cannot give you a hug, NO.

Shalom my friend
 
I love you brother, same as I love all saved souls, I don't have to hug you, but I still love you.

I live i the UK, lets say my kids live in USA and Australia, I loved them where ever they are, just because I cannot hug them does not mean I don't love them, or love them less.

We love one another as Christ loves us, where ever we are.

Lets say you were put in prison for your faith in Jesus, you were in an area not allowing visitors, would I love you less NO, would I love you less because I cannot give you a hug, NO.

Shalom my friend
Jesus told us that He and his Father would live in us, this being the case, they must know those who are on our hearts because being in us, they must also be on their hearts. The people we meet, they meet, the people we speak to, they speak to through us. I have a dear friend who I havn't seen for years, he often comes to mind and I pray for him, and because he comes to my mind, I know he is also in the mind of the Father and the Son. I find this union the most valuable gift.
 
I love you brother, same as I love all saved souls, I don't have to hug you, but I still love you.

I live i the UK, lets say my kids live in USA and Australia, I loved them where ever they are, just because I cannot hug them does not mean I don't love them, or love them less.

We love one another as Christ loves us, where ever we are.

Lets say you were put in prison for your faith in Jesus, you were in an area not allowing visitors, would I love you less NO, would I love you less because I cannot give you a hug, NO.

Shalom my friend


you got admit brother face to face intimacy is much more special then internet connection. I like this place and love the people, but its no whear near the same as face to face fellowship, but I am grateful for this place. But if one has opportunity for face to face fellowship (some dont ) I think it is much more intimate and meaningful. just my opinion
 
Jesus told us that He and his Father would live in us, this being the case, they must know those who are on our hearts because being in us, they must also be on their hearts. The people we meet, they meet, the people we speak to, they speak to through us. I have a dear friend who I havn't seen for years, he often comes to mind and I pray for him, and because he comes to my mind, I know he is also in the mind of the Father and the Son. I find this union the most valuable gift.


PTL brother,

We worship in Spirit and Truth, we abide in Christ He abides in us, He abides in every believer worldwide, so when two or three come together, He is there in the midst of us. In a place of worship, on a forum like this, on the internet, on the phone, or in our heart in prayer, the connection is there because Jesus is there.

The gift of Salvation, connects our heart to God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, to the ekklesia, every saved soul worldwide, together as one body in Christ Jesus.

Salvation is the most important miracle, salvation is the most important and most special gift we can ever receive.
 
you got admit brother face to face intimacy is much more special then internet connection. I like this place and love the people, but its no whear near the same as face to face fellowship, but I am grateful for this place. But if one has opportunity for face to face fellowship (some dont ) I think it is much more intimate and meaningful. just my opinion


I agree 100% Dave

But, it is important to not lose site of the fact, the ekklesia, the body of Christ's believers, is born again from above souls, all across the world.

Fellowship in a place of worship is important, it cannot be replaced, but when two or three saved souls come together, anywhere in the world, Christ Jesus is in the midst with them.

Fellowship anywhere is important, when saved souls come together, in a place of worship, in a home, on the Internet, over the phone, the church has come together, the church, the ekklesia, is only born again souls, they are the spiritual stones, where ever they are, they are part of the body of Christ, Jesus is the Head of His church, Hid Bride. We must accept that, it is scripture, the Truth is in The Word.

But, as already said, face to face cannot be replaced in fellowship, unlike talking or typing, having to say something and wait for a reply, we communicated together, we can tell by the eye, by a facial expression, by a laugh or lack of one, we can tell by the body language of each other and a conversation can run smoother.

I cannot help but think 'Fellowship' is being mistaken for church here, church ekklesia not church kuriakon.

The place of worship, is 'the fellowship' of believers and none believers. Sadly in that fellowship there are unsaved souls as well as saved souls, but the ekklesia, the 'part of the whole church' in any place is only the born again from above souls.

Shalom
 
The 'church' is both the place where people get together to worship God AND the body of believers. The 'local' church and the 'universal' church -- the universal church are all the born-again believers all over the world. The 'local' body of believers -- of course -- where we live.

But this Forum -- is not to be a substitute For a local church.
 
Physical distance has nothing to do with not being able to be spiritually together as a Church. (Heb 12:22-24)

Col 2:5 For though I am away from you in body, yet I am with you in spirit, delighted at the sight of your [standing shoulder to shoulder in such] orderly array and the firmness and the solid front and steadfastness of your faith in Christ [that leaning of the entire human personality on Him in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness]. (AMP)
 
American Standard Version
Jesus the True Vine
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. 3Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; and'so'shall ye be my disciples. 9Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
12This is my commandment, that ye love one another,[meaning your brother and sisters in Christ] even as I have loved you.

He said nothing about abiding in a "church"! if it was "important" He would have said so: In acts of "importance" The Bible always state those things in "repetition". When we abide in HIM, we abide and Have pure fellowship with all the "SAINTS" of God that ever exists and we feel their presence. When we stay focus on HIM we are in "communications" with all, For this body is "SPIRITUAL". "if you have never been there, you have no idea what i am talking about" and there are no earthly words to express this "Fellowship"! It is like trying to tell a person who has never experience the anointing of the "HOLY GHOST". If a "born from above" believer Have never experience " Koinonia" you cannot explain it to them, They only have experience the joy of the "Holy Spirit". But Koinonia true fellowship of the whole body of Christ! That leaves a Child of God speech-less. that the "Human body" cannot with stand. you ask God please. turn it off please LORD turn it now. For word of reference I would say something like the Hebrew writers tried to coined a word for it ,as The “Shekinah” glory with their description of a "event. For the Word “Shekinah” is not even in the "original copied text" so the definer do not know actually the glory of the event. so in essence The "Koinonia" is similar in explanation.


and Curtis well said; i am agreeing on your post.

PS the local church is a "adulterated fellowship" a mixture of idol worshippers and saints of God" that cannot have a Godly fellowship together.
 
The 'church' is both the place where people get together to worship God AND the body of believers. The 'local' church and the 'universal' church -- the universal church are all the born-again believers all over the world. The 'local' body of believers -- of course -- where we live.

But this Forum -- is not to be a substitute For a local church.


Dear Sue,

The place where people come together to worship, is not, the church mentioned in the bible.

The place where people come together to worship is called a church but it is not scriptural. The building people call a church is a kuriakon, now kuriakon is Latin for church building, it was introduced by the RCC around 300-500 A.D.

So from the point of view of what scripture says, kuriakon, church building cannot be considered as it ISNOT in the Bible.

The word for church in the Bible, is ekklesia, which translated is the church, the born again believers.

Now you say you don't look into the true meaning of words in scripture, then you will never find the true meaning, because the translations don't always give the true meaning.

There is only one church, the body of Christ, it is the ekklesia, it is not a building for worship, it is the body of saved souls, worldwide.

It is right to say, the church meets at such a place, because that is the born again from above souls coming together, in fellowship one with another, for prayer worship and to give thanks. But it is not right, according to scripture, to say the building is the church, unless you are happy to quote it in a RCC way, using the none scriptural reference taken from the word kuriakon.

The church our Lord refers to is the worldwide body of saved believers, from the Word ekklesia. The spiritual stones, built up into the Bride of Christ, which our Lord will return in Glory for.

We are born in a country, in a time slot, we are influenced by the way of the time, if we want to be tight with God, if we want to be right with our Saviour and Lord, we will want to know to true meaning of all scripture and when errors are found surely make them known and avoid them.

Shalom
 
Physical distance has nothing to do with not being able to be spiritually together as a Church. (Heb 12:22-24)

Col 2:5 For though I am away from you in body, yet I am with you in spirit, delighted at the sight of your [standing shoulder to shoulder in such] orderly array and the firmness and the solid front and steadfastness of your faith in Christ [that leaning of the entire human personality on Him in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness]. (AMP)


Totally agree brother, and I love that Word hesed.
 
This online community of believers is at least in part, part of the global church, the ekklesia . But it would be a Very Poor substitute for the real thing. People online can hide what they are really like, but its much harder to hide what you really are in person over time, and you really cant do any iron sharpening iron thing with any real effectiveness without being in person. You also cant use a lot of the gifts of the Holy Spirit online, some yes, but not all, at least not how they were meant to be used, as part of the church. And getting help from the church is a lot harder online.
 
Hi Brad,

I don't think anyone said, these other methods of fellowship would replace face to face fellowship. I have repeated myself, you cannot compare face to face fellowship and explained why.

The point is a building is not a church, unless we wantvto accepting an untruth by the RCC who introduced the Word kuriakon, which is not in scripture.

The church is the fellowship of saved souls, not saved and unsaved souls, that is not the church, that is not the ekklesia, only saved souls are part of the true church the body of Christ, saved souls across the earth, around the earth.

Now it is right with The Word to say the church meets in this place, fellowship of saved souls, but not that the building is the church.

A group of saved souls come together, Jesus says he is in the midst of them, PTL. The group come together for fellowship together, it is the saved souls that are the true church, the ekklesia. They are the spiritual stones of gheconectrue church, like all other saved souls across the earth.

Jesus will return in Glory for 'his church' He will return for the saved souls they are his church, his bride

Shalom
 
And those of us who are born again are supposed to be sharing the Gospel unto salvation with our neighbors / friends, etc, by inviting them to worship with us as well as getting to know them as neighbors -- we're always encouraged to invite others to be with us. Pastor is always happy to have guests / new people coming.

So apparently you're bringing people to Christ and then inviting them to church with you? But you wouldn't invite them to church with you if they weren't believers?
 
The Church is not a place on planet earth where we go to, it is a spiritual building and it started being built after the "chief cornerstone" was laid in Heaven! (1 Peter 2:6) Jesus is the chief cornerstone where all other stones are being laid! (Eph 2:20-21)

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

The habitation of God (his Church) is accessed "through His Spirit"

Contained within the Church (which is his body) we live, move, and have our being! (Acts 17:28)
 
Yes... we have already covered all this... there is a global church. I never said otherwise.
Yes our bodies are a temple... I never disagreed with this either.
All of this was mentioned in the first 3 posts. I have no problem with any of that.

But the church is also a local community. People you know personally.
Both John and Paul wrote letters to specific churches. In specific places.. specific cities you could go to on a map.
All you had to do was look them up on google maps. At booking.com you could rent a camel and a manger for the night if you needed to, for just a few shekels. Or just put it on on your Jerusalem Express card.

But seriously.. they were local communities. We can't say the church is ONLY the global church.... that's not true.
We can't the church is only within us... that's not true either. I see verses that say we are a temple for the Holy Spirit, but I see no scriptures that say our bodies are a temple for ourselves.
We can't say the church only exists in heaven.. that isn't true either.

The church was a "congregation of people" sometimes.

Acts 4:32; And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.
Acts 4:33; And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
Acts 4:34; For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales
Acts 4:35; and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.
Acts 4:36; Now Joseph, a Levite of Cyprian birth, who was also called Barnabas by the apostles (which translated means Son of Encouragement),
Acts 4:37; and who owned a tract of land, sold it and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.

A church was a specific area sometimes.

In the first chapter of Romans, Paul addresses them...

Rom 1:7; to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

He starts off 1 Corinthians with...

1Cor 1:2; To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling,

Paul specifically calls them a church here.

He starts off Galatians with...

Gal 1:2; and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians...

Eph 1:1; Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians...

Php 1:1; Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:

Paul recognized the church as a local community as well as a global church, heavenly church, spiritual church whatever other church there might be.

Colossians...

Col 1:2; To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

Now John it's John who writes Revelation... but he was in a vision when he wrote it. In the vision Jesus is speaking here. Jesus Himself recognizes churches as local communities.

Rev 2:1; "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:

Rev 2:8; "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

Rev 2:12; "And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this:

Rev 2:18; "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:

Rev 3:1; "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Rev 3:7; "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

Rev 3:14; "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:


Now... are these letter prophetical or spiritual representations of the global church in some ways... yes I will even admit that. But even so... these were real churches with real problems in real communities.

To deny this.. is to deny what the Bible clearly states in many many places.

Acts 11:26; and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Matt 18:17; "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Acts 11:22; The news about them reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas off to Antioch.

Acts 9:31; So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.
 
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But the church is also a local community. People you know personally.


The Church, the ekklesia, is local and worldwide, the ekklesia, is the born again from above believers, it is not a mixture of saved and unsaved souls, it is not a building. Scripture is so clear on this. The Church, the ekklesia, is a body of believers, in a house, in the street, in a place for worship, in a town, in a city, in a country, in all the earth. We, the born again from above believers are the 'Body of Christ'. The Holy Temple is in every saved soul, it is the Holy Spirit that brings us together as one body, where ever we are in on earth.

Both John and Paul wrote letters to specific churches. In specific places.. specific cities you could go to on a map.
All you had to do was look them up on google maps. At booking.com you could rent a camel and a manger for the night if you needed to, for just a few shekels. Or just put it on on your Jerusalem Express card.


Paul wrote his letter to 'the church in, Galatia, Thessalonica, and more. He didn't write to a building, he wrote to the church in, he wrote to the saved souls in, he wrote to the ekklesia in... (more on this later)

But seriously.. they were local communities. We can't say the church is ONLY the global church.... that's not true.
We can't the church is only within us... that's not true either. I see verses that say we are a temple for the Holy Spirit, but I see no scriptures that say our bodies are a temple for ourselves.
We can't say the church only exists in heaven.. that isn't true either.

The church was a "congregation of people" sometimes.


In the OT they had synagogues and the Temple. Remember Jesus said, knock this Temple down and I will rebuild it in 3 days. He was as we know talking about the Spiritual Temple. Now in the NT times we have the church, the ekklesia, which consists of saved souls in every country of the world.

The Temple which lives in a saved soul id the Spirit of Christ, we know that, He is the Temple within us, there is no other Temple possible, it is Jesus Spirit within every believer. Through His Spirit we become living stones, living stones of what? Living stones of the ekklesia, this is the only church there is. When we are born again from above, the Holy Spirit comes into us, The Temple is within us, but the Temple alone is not enough, Jesus abides in our heart, we are to abide in him, Jesus is the life giving vine for every saved soul, we are grafted in when we are saved, we are given the Holy sap, we are given life, life in Him.

We are not saying 'the church' is in heaven only, no no no, we are not saying 'the church' is just worldwide, no brother. But scripture says, 'the church' the ekklesia, consists of born again believers, locally, nationally, all across and round the world, spiritually. Scripture tells us clearly the church is the ekklesia, in all the world.

Sadly a system was set up, the RCC made changes as we know, 'the church' the kuriakon is one of them. They introduced the word kuriakon to mean church building, over the centuries preachers say come to church, congregation invite people to their church. It is not scriptural brother, it is a RCC introduction.

If we want to be right with God, we all do brother, we should rule out anything that is not in scripture and keep to what scripture says, surely. I think when this is mentioned some see it as an attack on their church, it is far from it, it is revealing the Truth in the Word regarding what a church is, what the ekklesia is.

We say when born again we are not of this world, we are alien to this world, that is true, but we tend to look at things in a worldly way, not as God sees things at times. We are looking at the place we worship as a church, why? Because that is what we have been taught, and the RCC addition has caused further misunderstandings, to kuriakon, not coming from scripture should not be considered any more.

Acts 4:32; And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.


This verse tels us clearly brother, 'the congregation of believers', it says the congregation of saved souls, were of one heart and soul. This is a winderful picture of the ekklesia, a body of born again form above souls, one body, one heart, in Christ, they were a 'congregation', they were a local 'fellowship', they are part of the global church, the body of Christ, ekklesia. His church, His Bride.

Acts 4:33; And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
Acts 4:34; For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales
Acts 4:35; and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.
Acts 4:36; Now Joseph, a Levite of Cyprian birth, who was also called Barnabas by the apostles (which translated means Son of Encouragement),
Acts 4:37; and who owned a tract of land, sold it and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.


Here we have a body of saved souls, all with one heart, all with Christ in them, all grafted into the main vine, that was why 'they had great power', they were a body of believers, with one accord, we can tell they were All saved souls, 'with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus' If they were not all saved souls, they would not have the power, they would not be preaching Christ Jesus.

A church was a specific area sometimes.

In the first chapter of Romans, Paul addresses them...

Rom 1:7; to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


I do not see where the church was an area Ray, but I do see from scripture, saved souls in an area.

The saints in Rome, the church is not the area, the believers are the church, the ekklesia who are in Rome.

He starts off 1 Corinthians with...

1Cor 1:2; To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling,

Paul specifically calls them a church here.


Agreed brother He does, because the church of God in Corinthmare those sanctified in Christ Jesus, they are believers, they are saved souls, they were called, they accepted Jesus in their hearts, they are born again. The are a group of spiritual stones, they are part of the worldwide ekklesia. They are an ekklesia in their area. The church is not the building it is born again from above, spirit filled believers, the church, the ekklesia, the living, spirit filled souls, together they are the church, or part of the worldwide church.

He starts off Galatians with...

Gal 1:2; and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians...

Eph 1:1; Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians...

Php 1:1; Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:

Paul recognized the church as a local community as well as a global church, heavenly church, spiritual church whatever other church there might be.

Colossians...

Col 1:2; To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.


To the church in these places Paul did write, but he wrote to the saved souls in that area, never a building. To the saints in Christ Jesus, to the brethren, the body of saved believers. Always saved souls are referred to as the church, the ekklesia, never a building brother.

Now John it's John who writes Revelation... but he was in a vision when he wrote it. In the vision Jesus is speaking here. Jesus Himself recognizes churches as local communities.

Rev 2:1; "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:

Rev 2:8; "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

Rev 2:12; "And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this:

Rev 2:18; "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:

Rev 3:1; "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Rev 3:7; "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

Rev 3:14; "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:


Now... are these letter prophetical or spiritual representations of the global church in some ways... yes I will even admit that. But even so... these were real churches with real problems in real communities.

To deny this.. is to deny what the Bible clearly states in many many places.

Acts 11:26; and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Matt 18:17; "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Acts 11:22; The news about them reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas off to Antioch.

Acts 9:31; So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.


Tell it to the church, PTL, tell it to the church. What is the church? The saints, the saved souls, the 'congregation of believers' 'the body of believers, 'the ones who are in Christ and Christ in them'

Always to the saved souls, never to saved and unsaved souls, never to a building called a church, RCC word for church building, kuriakon.

When John wrote to, To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: and the others, He didn't write to the place, he didn't write to a building, the ekklesia is a Spiritual Church, with Christ as it's head, worthy to be called 'The Bride of Christ'

Bless you brother.
 
THE CHURCH, Scripture calls the Ekklesia.

NKJV - Church - 74 occurrences in 73 sections (NT Only)
Gospels - 2 mentions (Matthew)
Revelation - 7 mentions

KJV - Church - 77 occurrences in 76 sections (NT Only)
Gospels - 2 mentions (Matthew)
Revelation - 7 mentions

Each have the Strongs reference <G1577> ekklesia, a congregation, an assembly

Vines gives the same definition

Looking further, <G1577> is a derivative of <G2564> (kaleo).....
ekklesia - 'a calling out' 'a community of members on earth or Saints in Heaven, or both

ekklesia - A calling out is the born again souls
ekklesia - A community of called out members on earth, or Saints in Heaven or both

Each show us clearly that ekklesia, the only word for Church in the Bible and only in the NT, is a congregation or assembly (locally, nationally, worldwide) who are saved, born again from above, new creatures, new creations.

Only saved souls.

Looking a little deeper... I then searched the KJV for the Strong's <G1577>

Interestingly it brought up, 115 occurrences in 112 sections
Gospels - 2 mentions (Matthew)
Revelation - 19 mentions

I didn't see any point in taking the study any further because all the information above clearly tells us, as born again from above believers, when coming together 'in fellowship' as 'a congregation' (Saved souls only) we are the church, the body of Christ.

The building or buildings have never been called a church, not according to scripture, but only by the RCC introducing a new word that is not in scripture which is kuriakon.

Shalom
 
I didn't see any point in taking the study any further because all the information above clearly tells us, as born again from above believers, when coming together 'in fellowship' as 'a congregation' (Saved souls only) we are the church, the body of Christ.

We will just have to disagree on this... and thats ok.
 
We will just have to disagree on this... and thats ok.


Can you show me in scripture Ray

- where the church is a building?
- where the church is a local building?
- where the church consists of saved and unsaved souls?
- where the church is anything different to the translated word, ekklesia?

I always maintain an open mind to scripture, I am always willing to listen to others and consider what they put forward.

I always value what ever you put forward.

Bless you brother.
 
QUOTE="Brother-Paul, post: 363835, member: 30622"]
- where the church is a local building?
[/QUOTE]

It doesn't have to be a building, but they can meet in a building. I think we get too hung up on the building thing.
.
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

I think we get too hung up on it "it can mean global", but it doesn't "always" mean global. Sometimes it mean local community.

1Cor 1:2; To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

The church at Corinth is not the church at Ephesus, it is not the church at Rome, it is not the church anywhere else in this context. It is ONLY the church at Corinth.
The church at Corinth didn't have the same problems as the churches in other places, it had it's own specific problem to the saints at that location.

Rev 2:1; "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:
Rev 2:2; 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
Rev 2:3; and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.
Rev 2:4; 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.


The church"in" Ephesus, is not the church in Smyrna, it is not the church in Philadelphia. They all may be part of the global church... but they are also individually separate just as you and I are individually separate.

The Bible doesn't say the saints at Smyrna and Philadelphia "lost their first love" (Jesus).. but it does say the "church in Ephesus" did. What applies to one church might not be the situation in all churches.

- where the church consists of saved and unsaved souls?

Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matt 13:47; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
Matt 13:49; "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


There are stumbling block in the kingdom.. in the church. There are bad fish in the net.. in the church. One day they will be removed, but the tares are still among the wheat in the kingdom today.

Even Satan was in heaven once upon a time.. (it seems he is still allowed to visit occasionally)

Ezek 28:14; "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:15; "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

Luke 10:18; And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
 
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