What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

[norapture]

Yep, chap. 5, not chap. 6. Thanks.

You are welcome , I knew where you was talking about, I thought that was a good post.

 

[lawrenceb]

Still on the subject of the resurrection (as opposed to some theoretical rapture), there are two key passages in The New Testament, both written by the Apostle Paul, that are commonly used by "rapturists" to describe their fictional event.

From the OP:

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

To the Christians at Corinth, Paul writes "...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, an we shall be changed." (I Cor. 15:51, 52).

At this point he has already written to the believers at Thessalonica with a very similar doctrinal statement: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds..." (I Thes. 4:16, 17).

Because both verses describe people being raised from the dead, it should be obvious that this is a significant description of the resurrection of the believers. Both passages are consistent, for they say that "the dead in Christ shall rise first...then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up..." He couldn't make it any clearer: At the resurrection of believers in Christ, all the dead believers will be resurrected; then those that are alive will be "changed" to the same "incorruptible" state as the resurrected believers.

The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine teaches that believers that live in the last generation will be "changed" into a resurrected or eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period -- which is generally believed to be 7 years in length. The doctrine then goes on to say that there will be many "tribulation saints" that come to know Christ after the so-called rapture. While the "raptured" believers are in heaven during the tribulation, all or most of these "tribulation saints" will be killed for their faith during the tribulation.

Revelation does describe believers that are martyred during the great tribulation. John writes that "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God...and they lived and reigned with him a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4). The problem should already be apparent. If the dead believers are resurrected at the same time as the 'rapture' before the tribulation, how then can these so-called "tribulation saints" be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?

Remember the previously cited verses (see post #15 ) that clearly show there are only 2 resurrections: ONE for the believers and ONE for the lost. If you have the "dead in Christ" rising at the time of the fictional "rapture" before the tribulation and the falsely named "tribulation saints" later raised after the tribulation is over, you then have two resurrections of the believers. That contradicts the plain teaching of the scriptures.

Rapturists usually attempt to answer this problem by redefining the raptured believers as "firstfruits" rather than resurrected believers -- that way they can still have the "real" resurrection at the end of the tribulation. The Apostle Paul, however, precludes this as he writes that the resurrection will occur for "every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (1 Cor. 15:23).

A further refinement of this concept of a singular resurrection of believers needs to be addressed. When the text says "the dead in Christ" are to be raised at a particular point in time, e.g. "at the last trump," we can draw certain conclusions. When scripture uses the term "the," in a collective sense (as opposed to 'some of the dead in Christ'), we see the word as all inclusive. In short, the phrasing of the text obviously means all the dead in Christ that have ever lived will be raised at that time. There is simply no other way to turn this into a partial resurrection, or a progressive resurrection, or anything else other than an all inclusive resurrection of all believers in Jesus Christ.

Now let's say that this theoretical pre-tribulation "rapture" occurs next week. That means that every believer since the time of Christ that has died will "rise first," according to II Thes. 4:16. That would be about 99% of all Christians in history! How then can one say that this event would be the firstfruits -- especially when the text says that Jesus himself is the firstfruits? That sounds like the main 'harvest' to me!

It's really very simple: If you take away the pre-conceived notion of a "rapture," the problems also go away. Jesus returns at the second coming at the end of the tribulation. There will be Christians that are alive at that time. All dead believers will be resurrected from the dead at his return, and "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds." (I Cor. 15:51)

 

[tulsa 2011]

The doctrine that all Old Covenant Israel will be saved some time in the future based upon their physical bloodline from Abraham, because Christ was unable to save all of Old Covenant Israel he came to save (Matthew 15: 24) the first time, and that God now has two, not one, group, does more damage to the Gospel than does the teaching of the pre-trib rapture. The pre-trib rapture is based upon a tradition of men, the word of man also, and not of God, but it does somewhat less damage to the Gospel. You see, saying that Christ did not fulfill his mission to save Old Covenant Israel is a kind of blasphemy against Christ. And saying that Old Covenant Israel now remains a people of God, and still the chosen people, fundamentally questions, compromises and reduces the remaking of Old Covenant Israel and the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant (See Hebrews chapters 7, 8, 9 and especially 10 and 10: 9).

 

[RJ]

Because both verses describe people being raised from the dead, it should be obvious that this is a significant description of the resurrection of the believers. Both passages are consistent, for they say that "the dead in Christ shall rise first...then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up..." He couldn't make it any clearer: At the resurrection of believers in Christ, all the dead believers will be resurrected; then those that are alive will be "changed" to the same "incorruptible" state as the resurrected believers.

• Why is this resurrection not a rapture?
  
• Are you saying this is a resurrection after tribulation?

 

[Travis]

• Are you saying this is a resurrection after tribulation?

I would say that:

Revelation 11
11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come. 15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."​

Sounds like its right before/at the time of the seventh trumpet when the dead are raised. I would said that is after tribulation.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[norapture]

I would say that:

Revelation 11
11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come. 15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."​

Sounds like its right before/at the time of the seventh trumpet when the dead are raised. I would said that is after tribulation.

Blessings,

Travis

I agree, when the last trump begins to sound

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

No, I think scripture is clear on what happens!
At that time, the "twinkling of the eye", according to scripture, applies to then living in Christ (saved) or his church that are alive. But there is no reason not to believe that the raising of the dead in Christ first and the changing of the living in Christ do not happen instantly or, at least, very rapidly!

Again scripture says:
1Corinthians 15:51-52

We shall be changed in the twinkle of an eye
From corruptible to incorruptible.
Verses 50 thru 54 are about our bodies being changed

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

I would say that:

Revelation 11
11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come. 15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."​

Sounds like its right before/at the time of the seventh trumpet when the dead are raised. I would said that is after tribulation.

Blessings,

Travis

These are the 2 witnesses during the tribulation. The first mention of believers in heaven is at Rev 7:9

We know Rev 4:1 is NOT the rapture as false teacher jack van impe says.
He is locked into the pre trib rapture and HAS to make this the rapture but anyone can see its john going in spirit to heaven to receive the Revelation of Christ.... we see NO mention from John of anyone in heaven and further we see at 4:6 without and 15:2 with people....

The rapture happens after the 3.5 year mark of the time of tribulation as we see at Rev 6:12-17 we see the sky roll back and God and Jesus are revealed to all men - jesus comes to:
Watch 144,000 sealed against the wrath from angels and the rapture with Christ in Glory.... then half hour silence in heaven as God is going to pour His wrath out on earth just after we are taken.. we can see this also at Daniel 12:1-2 that both saved and unsaved awake at same time


Your loved ones are Not in heaven now.....

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

You can also see both awaken or reaped at same time at Rev 14:14 (jesus on the cloud) we know jesus does not know time only the Father and we see in verse 15 an angel tell Jesus it is time

And we see just like in Daniel Both are awaken to their fate at same time so all eyes can see him coming on the clouds...

 

[Travis]

Your loved ones are Not in heaven now.....

What....!!??!

You got some real nerve saying that my loved ones are in hell buddy.....

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

One more thing revelation does Not go in order

Just like matt mark luke and john sometimes have the same story, they do this cause you have to get the Complete story by using all versions of it and Rev gives multiples like that.....


Also whoever said you shouldnt mix OT and NT is wrong since the OT has

Daniel ezekiel joel amos zecharian Genisis jeremiah ruth just to name a few which deal with end times

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

What....!!??!

You got some real nerve saying that my loved ones are in hell buddy.....

You simply dont understand scripture to think they are in heaven at this time

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

Travis why would you think they are? Scripture doesnt teach it....


Acts 2:33 tells us that king David has Not ascended into heaven after christ was at right hand of Father - so why are your family special?

1Thess 1:7 paul tells ALL belevers to WAIT WITH THEM UNTIL CHRIST IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN - And since He has NOT be revealed paul still waits with ALL the rest the christians... oh yeah and if you look christ was NOT left in HELL (Act 2:25-31 - Jesus was in Hell and was not left but 3 days and david Rejoices knowing He wont BE LEFT IN HELL EITHER...

So yeah your friends are in hell at this time its just you have the wrong idea about it.....

 

[lawrenceb]

The doctrine that all Old Covenant Israel will be saved some time in the future based upon their physical bloodline from Abraham...does more damage to the Gospel than does the teaching of the pre-trib rapture....[it’s] a kind of blasphemy against Christ.

tulsa 2011 is absolutely correct.

The pre-trib rapture theory is simply the marketing vehicle for the false doctrine of dispensationalism.

This really highlights the root of the problem: people do not know what a Jew is, who Israel is, what the remnant is; they no longer understand what their own standing is in Christ.

And saying that Old Covenant Israel now remains a people of God, and still the chosen people, fundamentally questions, compromises and reduces the remaking of Old Covenant Israel and the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant (See Hebrews chapters 7, 8, 9 and especially 10 and 10: 9).

Indeed. The so-called church has been thoroughly leavened with the “national/physical/ethnic Israel as the chosen people” myth, which obscures the timeline and is ultimately designed to assist the enthronement of the antichrist in Jerusalem.

 

[tulsa 2011]

Revelation 11: 11-12 should not be taken as a separate set of verses and compartmentalized from Revelation 11: 7-10, where the beast out of the bottomless pit makes war with these people and "kills" them. They are spiritually killed and then are given new spiritual life by the Spirit of life from God. The whole chapter leading up to their being spiritually killed and then made spiritually alive again is heavily metaphoric. To see it all as being literal takes away the message of the chapter.

 

[RJ]

Again scripture says:
1Corinthians 15:51-52
We shall be changed in the twinkle of an eye
From corruptible to incorruptible.
Verses 50 thru 54 are about our bodies being changed

Hmm, let me get this straight:
1 Corinthians 15: 51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality

• we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed......Those Christians who are alive, will not die (imperishable) but will be changed instantly
  
• the dead will be raised imperishable........The dead in Christ first
• perishable must put on the imperishable........Again, the dead who are perishable will be raised imperishable
• mortal must put on immortality.......Again, the living will be changed with out dieing,

Two resurrections, probably simultaneously: (1) The dead in Christ raised, and then (2) The alive in Christ..... All of God's church!........Agreed?

 

[RJ]

I would say that:

Revelation 11
11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come. 15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."​

Sounds like its right before/at the time of the seventh trumpet when the dead are raised. I would said that is after tribulation.

Blessings,

Travis

Thanks, I appreciate your input, but the 2 questions were addressed to lawerenceb.

 

[Travis]

Thanks, I appreciate your input, but the 2 questions were addressed to lawerenceb.

Your welcome! And if you don't mind, even though the following is addressed to Truth Be Told, I would like to respond to that as well.

Two resurrections, probably simultaneously: (1) The dead in Christ raised, and then (2) The alive in Christ..... All of God's church!........Agreed?

I don't think those who are alive in Christ at the time of his second coming are raised from the dead. I think they are transformed, and caught up with him in the clouds. Their bodies are transformed/changed into incorruptible bodies.

That's all! Blessings,

Travis

 

[RJ]

[QUOTE="Travis, post: 253864, member: 29137"]I don't think those who are alive in Christ at the time of his second coming are raised from the dead. I think they are transformed, and caught up with him in the clouds. Their bodies are transformed/changed into incorruptible bodies.[/QUOTE]
]I don't think those who are alive in Christ at the time of his second coming are raised from the dead Travis, I have seen your posts for sometime now and have respected them! No offense, but this is the most ridiculous statement that I have ever heard!? It is something I have never said, and, if you can, show me where I even remotely said such a false statement, I would like to see it! How on God's green earth can you be alive and raised from the dead at the same time?

 

[lawrenceb]

Two resurrections, probably simultaneously: (1) The dead in Christ raised, and then (2) The alive in Christ..... All of God's church!........Agreed?

"The alive in Christ" (the born again believers who are still alive), cannot, by definition, be "resurrected."

The previously cited verses clearly show there are only 2 resurrections: ONE for the believers and ONE for the lost.