What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

[RJ]

"The alive in Christ" (the born again believers who are still alive), cannot, by definition, be "resurrected."
The previously cited verses clearly show there are only 2 resurrections: ONE for the believers and ONE for the lost.

• Aren't you a believer, a "Born Againn" believer?
• Being a living Christian, if Christ comes and gathers his church today, what happens to you?

 

[RJ]

The alive in Christ" (the born again believers who are still alive), cannot, by definition, be "resurrected."

OK, according to your understanding, what happens to these believers?

 

[lawrenceb]

I'm a bit inconvenienced at the moment, but I wanted to get back to you right away with some thoughts.

I don't think those who are alive in Christ at the time of his second coming are raised from the dead. I think they are transformed, and caught up with him in the clouds. Their bodies are transformed/changed into incorruptible bodies.

Right. And we have the dead believers and we have the living believers.

Aren't you a believer, a "Born Againn" believer?

Being a living Christian, if Christ comes and gathers his church today, what happens to you?

and

OK, according to your understanding, what happens to these believers?

The end of the chapter (1 Thes. chapter 4) is posted below. I’ve included some casual comments.

v. 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

We’re not to worry about our dead in Christ brethren.

v. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

As Jesus rose from the dead, likewise all the dead who are in Christ will also rise.

v. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

A couple of clues here: 1) Those believers who are alive at the Lord’s coming cannot influence the status of those believers who have died prior to the Lord’s coming -- because both groups (the dead and the living) will be brought together as one in the Lord.

2) Omitting the word “remain” would have worked just as well in this verse, where we would have ‘we which are alive unto the coming of the Lord’. So why did the Holy Spirit add the word “remain”? Since “remain” means “survive,” one might ask, ‘Survivors of what?’ --> the tribulation!

v. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Here’s the order of events. The Lord comes downward with a shout, a voice and a trump; the dead rise first (makes sense, as the dead would have the farthest to “travel”)...

v. 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then the living rise, not to meet the Lord first, but to meet the risen dead believers in the clouds first. THEN both groups, caught up together, meet the Lord in the air. Notice the verse does not say any believers get “caught up” with the Lord; rather, they get "caught up" with each other! THEN both groups “meet the Lord in the air”.

There’s no “preference” given to one group of believers (alive or dead) over another.

Just one orderly resurrection for the believers -- all believers.

v. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Don’t worry, as the Lord will bring all of the believers (both the dead and the survivors) together as one body.

 

[RJ]

This is information overload and doesn't directly answer my simple questions. I think I am politely done with this thread.
God Bless your understanding and future spiritual growth!

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

Hmm, let me get this straight:
1 Corinthians 15: 51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality

• we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed......Those Christians who are alive, will not die (imperishable) but will be changed instantly
  
• the dead will be raised imperishable........The dead in Christ first
• perishable must put on the imperishable........Again, the dead who are perishable will be raised imperishable
• mortal must put on immortality.......Again, the living will be changed with out dieing,

Two resurrections, probably simultaneously: (1) The dead in Christ raised, and then (2) The alive in Christ..... All of God's church!........Agreed?

Again the twinkle of an eye is about the changing of the body and Not the rapture..... it is about a portion of the rapture....

 

[RJ]

Again the twinkle of an eye is about the changing of the body and Not the rapture..... it is about a portion of the rapture....

OK, yes...the living in Christ will be changed in a blink of an eye. The Rapture is the gathering of Christ's church, the dead and the living in Christ!

 

[Byfaith]

Would love to read about yours and everyone elses opinion on this. I have seen scripture used to back up all the beliefs, pre, mid, and post. I hope ego's stay out of the discussion. I personally believe, as in personal belief due to faith, that it will be mid, saving us from the worst of it. But we face suffering in the world and the first century christians suffered much more so for thier faith, and the wrath they suffered was from man, not God. But regardless, I would apply the teaching that we are not to argue over minor teachings as scripture states. Loving discussion versus condescending arguing would be great!!

The timeline between Pre and Post only hang on a couple of scriptures and understanding of them. Most of the arguments are not important such as the wheat and tares.

No, I think scripture is clear on what happens!
At that time, the "twinkling of the eye", according to scripture, applies to then living in Christ (saved) or his church that are alive. But there is no reason not to believe that the raising of the dead in Christ first and the changing of the living in Christ do not happen instantly or, at least, very rapidly!

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:44)

My question is if all our bodies just lay around until the trumpet sound, or do the dead in Christ get their body first and meet the rest of us later. It can be read both ways and once everyone in Christ that will be is sorted, death will be defeated.

I always assumed God assemblies our bodies together and uses those, but I see that we get a spiritual body, not a body made of the old parts as God see's fit.

What makes me think we get the body right away is when Jesus came out of hell, he brought back with him many from the dead and seen by many. Now my guess is they did not come back as zombies or skeletons as that would have freaked folks out a bit, so they must have been presentable and in their new bodies would be my guess.

Not that it's scripture but many who "Claim" to have visited Heaven have seen loved ones in their bodies, knew who they were and they were not spirits floating around waiting on a body. That's not scripture though, and I don't really count that. wife gets into those "i have been to Heaven" books.

 

[RJ]

I always assumed God assemblies our bodies together and uses those, but I see that we get a spiritual body, not a body made of the old parts as God see's fit.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Philippians 3: 20-21 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

 

[Byfaith]

1 Corinthians 15:49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Philippians 3: 20-21 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

I never noticed Phil 3:20-21. We in Heaven then wait for the body? If someone in Heaven could just send a letter and get pics with their smart phone that would be good. How do you read this?

 

[RJ]

I never noticed Phil 3:20-21. We in Heaven then wait for the body? If someone in Heaven could just send a letter and get pics with their smart phone that would be good. How do you read this?

You are already in heaven but just don't know it!
Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
To be a Christian, Jesus says that we are in him and he is in us, do you not agree?
Jesus sits at the right hand of the father in heaven, true?
Then we are already seated with Christ in heaven!

 

[Byfaith]

You are already in heaven but just don't know it!
Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
To be a Christian, Jesus says that we are in him and he is in us, do you not agree?
Jesus sits at the right hand of the father in heaven, true?
Then we are already seated with Christ in heaven!

Well, your speaking from a Faith perspective and all things under our feet by which the elements of the World should be subject to us by faith in the name of Jesus.

I was speaking from a more unlearned perspective that others might grasp.

 

[RJ]

I never noticed Phil 3:20-21. We in Heaven then wait for the body? If someone in Heaven could just send a letter and get pics with their smart phone that would be good. How do you read this?

You are already in heaven but just don't know it!
Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
To be a Christian, Jesus says that we are in him and he is in us, do you not agree?
Jesus sits at the right hand of the father in heaven, true?
Then we are alewadt seated with Christ in heaven!

Well, your speaking from a Faith perspective and all things under our feet by which the elements of the World should be subject to us by faith in the name of Jesus.

I was speaking from a more unlearned perspective that others might grasp.

Hmm, well you asked the question: I never noticed Phil 3:20-21. We in Heaven then wait for the body?

 

[Byfaith]

You are already in heaven but just don't know it!
Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
To be a Christian, Jesus says that we are in him and he is in us, do you not agree?
Jesus sits at the right hand of the father in heaven, true?
Then we are alewadt seated with Christ in heaven!

Hmm, well you asked the question: I never noticed Phil 3:20-21. We in Heaven then wait for the body?

Well, that was my question. I think it's possible the Dead in Christ get their new bodies after death, but then again not tried it yet.

 

[RJ]

Well, that was my question. I think it's possible the Dead in Christ get their new bodies after death, but then again not tried it yet.

You know, God said he is spirit and we must worship him in spirit and truth. The truth is, his realm is the spiritual realm and, of course, it is nothing like we have here on earth, within the confines of the of the physical realm. When Jesus came back after resurrection he "just appeared" on several occasions with no explanation. He said he wasn't a Ghost, but yet appeared with nail holes in his hands, and yet looked, ate and drank and looked just like Jesus. How is this possible? It is just another of God's many mysteries, like Jesus in us! According to Jesus, we are in him and he is in us. Because of this, the Bible talks about Jesus sitting in heaven at the right hand of God, and we are seated there with him now! How is this possible?

Like the Bible says , nothing for God is impossible. If I get what you say, and not knowing you personally, I think we possibly feel the same way. Because, of what I said above, and because in the spirit realm there is no time-space limitations, I believe we are there, complete with our heavenly bodies. After all, everything the Bible says that will happen hear on earth, in the future, happens ,in part, in the physical world, yet to come, and that has nothing to do with the spiritual realm! Not sure how you feel, but that is just me!

 

[Curtis]

The Apostle Paul said he was taken up into the third Heaven, and he could not tell if he was still in his physical body, or out of his body.....

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I would say Paul was both still in his body ,and outside his body at the same time. This is where we can see that not only is Christ in us, and he is fully aware of his surroundings in us, and that we being in Christ in Heaven are being aware of our surroundings in him. Walking in the Spirit has nothing to do with our two feet.

 

[Byfaith]

You know, God said he is spirit and we must worship him in spirit and truth. The truth is, his realm is the spiritual realm and, of course, it is nothing like we have here on earth, within the confines of the of the physical realm. When Jesus came back after resurrection he "just appeared" on several occasions with no explanation. He said he wasn't a Ghost, but yet appeared with nail holes in his hands, and yet looked, ate and drank and looked just like Jesus. How is this possible? It is just another of God's many mysteries, like Jesus in us! According to Jesus, we are in him and he is in us. Because of this, the Bible talks about Jesus sitting in heaven at the right hand of God, and we are seated there with him now! How is this possible?

Like the Bible says , nothing for God is impossible. If I get what you say, and not knowing you personally, I think we possibly feel the same way. Because, of what I said above, and because in the spirit realm there is no time-space limitations, I believe we are there, complete with our heavenly bodies. After all, everything the Bible says that will happen hear on earth, in the future, happens ,in part, in the physical world, yet to come, and that has nothing to do with the spiritual realm! Not sure how you feel, but that is just me!

I feel the same way. I believe we get our new spiritual bodies at time of death to be with the Lord. Now scripture sort of points to waiting on some trumpet, but then it says the dead in Christ are first and there are many who are dead here on earth and in Christ.

Paul said to die is gain and to be with the Lord, but Spiritually we are already there, citizens of Heaven and earth is not our home. So we are told to look at the things not seen,not the things we see. Be heavenly minded the scriptures say.

As for me, my area is more on trusting God and helping people understand how to believe in God and trust him. Also how to hear the Holy Spirit an how to know the difference. These last few years the Lord has had me look into end time stuff which is something I ignored for a long time. I am still interested in people being set free and getting answers though. Lots of hurting folks out there.

Be blessed, I smell pancakes the wife is cooking.

 

[Bendito]

Some may disagree, but we all can agree that Jesus is lord and Savior!

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air 1 Thessalonians 4:17. At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth Revelation 19:14.

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10.

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 ; 5:9. The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment Matthews 24: 40-41.

4) The rapture will be secret and instant 1 Corinthians 15:50 - 54. The second coming will be visible to all Revelations 1:7 ; Matthew 24: 29-30.

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24: 15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18. The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment Titus 2:13 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ; 1 Corinthians 15: 50-54.

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ; Revelation 3:10.

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return Matthew 24: 4-30.

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” Jeremiah 30:7—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel Romans 11: 17-13.

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

Very good!!

 

[Bendito]

Some may disagree, but we all can agree that Jesus is lord and Savior!

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air 1 Thessalonians 4:17. At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth Revelation 19:14.

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10.

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 ; 5:9. The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment Matthews 24: 40-41.

4) The rapture will be secret and instant 1 Corinthians 15:50 - 54. The second coming will be visible to all Revelations 1:7 ; Matthew 24: 29-30.

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24: 15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18. The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment Titus 2:13 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ; 1 Corinthians 15: 50-54.

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ; Revelation 3:10.

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return Matthew 24: 4-30.

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” Jeremiah 30:7—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel Romans 11: 17-13.

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

Very good!

 

[Bendito]

I tend to agree it is two separate events, I also tend to lean towards pre-trib.
If it is pre-trib, and Jesus takes up "all the believers" before the tribulation, it certainly isn't everyone who will be saved. But I personally
believe it is all of those who are saved "at that point in time".
Because we know some people will come out of the tribulation saved. ( Rev 20:4-5; Rev 7:14; ) So it seems they were saved after the rapture. I believe Matt 24:29-31; is talking about those people.
Also it seems the 144,000 Jews will go through the tribulation, but they will be protected from some of the plagues. ( Rev 7:3; Rev 9:4; Rev 14:1; )

Also there will still be evil even after Jesus reigns on the earth for 1,000 years. Satan will be released and raise up a large army after
the millennial reign. ( Rev 20:7-10; )

I also agree the rapture will be "in the twinkling of an eye" or "like lightning flashing" it will be a very quick instantaneous thing.
People will simply disappear quickly. People will be going UP towards Jesus, heaven or wherever they will stay.

The second coming can't really happen "in the twinkling of an eye" if it's a permanent thing. (or at least for 1,000 years)
Also if some of the saints are ruling on the earth with Jesus, they wouldn't be going UP towards Jesus/Heaven.
They would be going DOWN towards Jesus/Earth.

I believe also that it is pretrib...I find no verses at all for midtrib. If it were post trib, when Jesus actually sets foot on the ground why would we be caught up into the air?

Many pretribbers are accused of being escapist. Uh Yeah! Who in his right mind would want to go through hell on Earth when we could go when Jesus blows the trump and calls us out of it before it starts?

 

[Listening]

Left behind Is not a new deception it is an old one.

An old one that St Paul had to deal with.

St Paul talks of our gathering to together with The lord as happening in conjunction with the second coming
Not before it. And he states that the day Of Christ will not come and so our gathering together To be with him when he comes thus will not come , until the Falling away occurs and the man of sin is revealed
For only when that happens will that day come for then the second coming occurs And it is to destroy the one revealed.
So that day of christ They thought they missed is the second coming
But it will not happen until the man of sin is revealed.
And the day will then happen, for that day of christ is christ's coming
And the gathering will then occur, so he reassures them they have not missed it.
For at the time the Falling away and the man of sin was not yet revealed
But now he has been, yet jesus shall come after he is revealed, so we wait for jesus to come
For his coming is imminent, because the man of sin has been revealed whom the Lord will destroy at his second coming.


The Man of Sin

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stand Firm

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.