When will the rapture take place?

[lightwait]

I have read alot of verses in the Bible that talks about the rapture, it's not called the rapture, but that's what Christians call it.
When I was a church regular a few years back I was tuaght that the rapture would take place before the second coming of Christ, I have watched a few shows on tv on the Gospel channels and the same thing was said.
But the fact is, why doesn't the Bible say that?
_________________________________________________________________
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words. _________________________________________________________________
So this verse clearly says that it will happen at Christs return, why do churches teach it differently?
Am I wrong in interpreting these verses?

Are you raised with Christ Jesus? Is Christ Jesus "in" you? Is Christ Jesus seen upon you?—then he has already come for you!

Jesus is here, however, He has yet to come to those who are in the world—those who do not, as of yet, believe. Preach the good news of the gospel so all who will believe can be saved. Lay down your nets and become fishers of men—when you do, you will be seen with Christ Jesus and you will be seen in His glory. Jesus is here—now for those who believe! If you do not believe he is not here, He is not in you and you are not in Him.

Col 3:
3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Jesus appeared to the disciples on the day of Pentecost. Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul was saved and raised with Christ Jesus. Paul is telling us that when Christ appears we shall appear with him in glory because Jesus has risen upon us. I know that Jesus is here because I see Him risen upon others who believe. Jesus is the light of the world—the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. I see Him. Those who do not believe do not see Him. Look for Jesus Christ the son of God and if you believe you will see Him risen upon others. If you believe you will be seen with Him by others. Don't make this more than it is—Jesus is here and on this earth. Jesus is all and in all. I love Jesus because His words are true. Jesus is my friend. I look at my wife and I see Jesus all over her. My wife is submerged in the life of God who is (because of his ascension) Christ Jesus.

Blessings

 

[stephen]

Message deleted. I have started a new thread entitled Rapture using the post which I made here

 

[Faithful Son]

I am so glad you decided to post on this thread Stephen, I appreciate the time you took to type out this post, it was clear and well written. I thank you.

Just for clarification: Ever since I started the thread I have looked to God for the questions I had, I have received many answers. I don't have questions regarding this matter any more, so I would appreciate it if this topic could move forward in a discussion that is not based on my personal questions. Anyone that would like to ask a question about it, feel free to ask in this thread, you don't have to start your own.

lightwait I appreciate that you are a Christian and that you experience Jesus in so many ways, just do me a favour next time, read the thread before you post, read my profile before you post, don't just post. I feel offended that your post questions my salvation, I do know Jesus and as you said

Don't make this more than it is

I will ask questions till the day that I finally breathe my last breath, I believe in JESUS CHRIST as my Lord and Savior and I will make it MORE than it is forever. No offence,

Let's continue this discussion whithout giving notice to my initial questions, they have been answered and I thank all who have answered them for me :shade:

 

[lightwait]

I am so glad you decided to post on this thread Stephen, I appreciate the time you took to type out this post, it was clear and well written. I thank you.
Just for clarification: Ever since I started the thread I have looked to God for the questions I had, I have received many answers. I don't have questions regarding this matter any more, so I would appreciate it if this topic could move forward in a discussion that is not based on my personal questions. Anyone that would like to ask a question about it, feel free to ask in this thread, you don't have to start your own.
lightwait I appreciate that you are a Christian and that you experience Jesus in so many ways, just do me a favour next time, read the thread before you post, read my profile before you post, don't just post. I feel offended that your post questions my salvation, I do know Jesus and as you said I will ask questions till the day that I finally breathe my last breath, I believe in JESUS CHRIST as my Lord and Savior and I will make it MORE than it is forever. No offence,
Let's continue this discussion whithout giving notice to my initial questions, they have been answered and I thank all who have answered them for me :shade:

I apologize for offending you—It was not my intention.

I skimmed through the thread and captured the point of each post prior to posting myself—I did not read them thoroughly, they seemed to be discussions that I had heard many times. Also, I did read your profile prior to posting.

When I used the term "you" it was the generic "you" meaning all who had engaged themselves in this thread.

I will say again, Jesus has returned and is here on this earth and in each who believe. John was raised with Christ Jesus as he reported to us in the Revelation,

4:1, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

—as was Paul: "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven."

What we are making of the "Rapture" is bogus—I mean pre and post and amillennial. None of it can be proven and all of the teachings are vanity—the teachings simply lead us to places of separation. That does not mean those who teach the different psuedo doctrines are not good Christian men and women, it means this: There are seven churches in the Revelation, some had gone to the wayside and were required to overcome their practices and teachings, however, they were all called churches.

For each of us personally the son of perdition must be brought fourth and revealed:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Then we must repent!

This means that if this happens with me individually in order that I might be saved—it must happen to all, collectively, who will believe and be saved. I must preach the gospel so that this might happen to others. I am to preach the good news and to those who do not yet believe, the man of sin will be revealed. I am not to condemn the world—I am to bring light to the world and that light is Christ Jesus.

Each who will believe and be saved, will be caught away—raised with Christ Jesus. If all who believe do our jobs and labor to enter that place of rest, soon there will be no darkness on this earth and Christ Jesus who is the glory of God and the light of the world will reign. There will be no temple, for the glory of God, Christ Jesus, will be the temple thereof.

We are caught away when we are saved—we are raised with Christ Jesus. So I ask again (the generic "you"), are you raised with Christ? Only those who believe are raised with Him.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Why do we argue the point if we are already there... Go out and preach the good news so all may be saved.

 

[stephen]

I skimmed through the thread and captured the point of each post prior to posting myself—I did not read them thoroughly, they seemed to be discussions that I had heard many times.

Skimmed through...........such a pity.

Dr Martin Lloyd Jones likens shallow bible-reading to people who go to an art museum, pick up a brochure that guides them through, and as they approach a painting they find it in their guide and say. "oh, this is a DaVinci" and perhaps make one or two comments about its general appearence, then they move on to the next. And they stop read their guide and say "Oh, this was painted by El Greco" and they move on.

Later they left the gallery and over lunch they say "I went to the art museum today and looked at every painting", but they studied none.

The Word of God is like the most fabulous work of art ever put on canvas. The serious student can sit for an hour, taking in every brush stroke: every subtle change of hue; every shadow or insinuation of light. And with the really classic works, the student can come back day after day, each day....................

I will say again, Jesus has returned and is here on this earth and in each who believe.

Jesus has not yet returned. Jesus is seated at the right hand of God at this very moment. Acts ch 7 v 55
Prior to His leaving earth Acts ch 1 v 9,10,11 Jesus said that he would return, in like manner. This has not yet taken place. However the Holy Spirit is with us upon the earth. Jn ch 14 v 26 promised and then fulfilled in Acts ch 2

I could go on, but I judge you to be an adult male of some intelligence. I would councel you to look around 'talkjesus' read some of the post's and threads.

What we are making of the "Rapture" is bogus—I mean pre and post and amillennial. None of it can be proven and all of the teachings are vanity—the teachings simply lead us to places of separation.

Nonsense......Tripe .......in fact

 

[rs3vans]

Question “When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation?”

Answer: The timing of the Rapture in relation to the Tribulation is one of the most controversial issues in the church today. The three primary views are Pretribulational (the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation), Midtribulational (the Rapture occurs at the mid-point of the Tribulation), and Posttribulational (the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation). A 4th view, commonly known as Pre-wrath, is a slight modification of the Midtribulational position.

First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the Tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “week” (7 years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy weeks (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth week, the Tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.

The primary Scripture passage on the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The Rapture is God removing His people from the earth. A few verses later in 5:9 Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the Tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the Tribulation. It would seem inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth during the Tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the Rapture is Revelation 3:10. There, Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things: (1) Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or (2) Christ will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept “from.” It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the Tribulation. The purpose of the Tribulation, the purpose of the Rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the Pretribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the Pretribulational position is the most Biblically consistent interpretation.

Chad, could you explain your position of the following verses:

1 Thess 4:13-18: Why do you believe that anything in this verse claims that those who are "caught up" will be taken back to heaven? Both pre and post trib views believe that Jesus will finally return to the Earth and reign for 1000 years on it. His coming is described as a processional through the sky. Why do you stretch this verse to claim that those caught up will return to heaven when it does not say that for certain?

Revelation 3:10: Why do you apply this verse to all believers? If God intended it that way, why would John only have been instructed to to share this with the church in Philidelphia?

Finally, you claim that if the Bible is interpreted LITERALLY and CONSITENTLY that pre-trib is the most obvious choice. Why do you say this? This is not my experience.
Examples:
1) Jesus' second coming is always said to be just that. A SECOND COMING. Not a second, then a third. this does not seem consistent...
2) In 2 Thess 2:3, Paul tell those, who seems to be worried that the Second Coming is iminent, that it will not happen until a great rebellion against God has taken place. He does not say anything about a rapture marking the beginning of the Day of the Lord. This does not seem consistent...
3) In Matthew 24:9-13, Jesus describes the tribulation. He is describing things in chronological order, as in, the ord in which they will happen. He doesn't say anything about coming to remove them before any of this. He tells them about what will happend to them. He is talking to his disciples (and therefore all his future disciples). This does not seem consistent at all...

I would like you to know that I have many other problems with a pre-tribulation rapture, each of which I can back up with scripture. I am offended that you throw around the phrase:

If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the Pretribulational position is the most Biblically consistent interpretation.

This sentance relieves anyone else's need for looking into the Bible for themselves. If more people looked and decided what they believe, it would not be such a big deal.

God bless...

Ryan

 

[gotime]

pre post ?

This question is talked of much I have seen here are some questions to ponder because I find in every case of the future there is a story or lesson in the Bible past that helps understand it.

did GOd save the Hebrews from hte Ten Plague or through them?

Did GOd save Shad, Mesh, and Abendigo from the fire or through it?

Did GOd save Noah from the flood or through It?

Did God save Daniel from the lions den or through It?

etcetc

there are many Bible stories and they have a repetative theme, that is GOd saves His people through trouble not from it thus His people learn to trust Him and the world can see faith in action.

Jesus coming is like "lightning flashing from east to west" eg no one will miss it. "every eye will see" eg everyone is inclusive not exclusive.

the time of trouble comes before the second coming as seen in Revelations trumpets and in Daniel. eg if Jesus comes after the trouble then we must be saved through it being that He has not been here to take us away yet.

there is no mention of a secret rapture in scripture that I have seen and our probation or time to decide who we follow is now. this is our chance now there will be no second chances after Christ comes back to collect His own, why? Because Christ comes back with His reward with Him hmmm why is it with Him because He has already decided who will be saved and who will not eg judgment has already taken place. some thoughts for you blessings all.

 

[lightwait]

We are raised with Christ at our new birth.

It seems the Christian community is looking for a "collective" catching away—one that is at a specific time—moreover, we change the verbiage to fit the concept and call it the rapture. The following Colossians verses show differently. When we believe, Christ is our "life". We are in Him and He is in us. We are "caught away" or "risen with Christ"—when we are saved. Christ becomes our "life" because we are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God—we who believe, "...seek those things which are above..." and we become lights to the world. When we preach the Gospel to all nations (greek ethnos=ethnic groups), then the end will come. Christ is here now—in the believer—and those who will not believe and those who will serve the ways of the world, will pass away. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."—1Cor 15:52 When all on the earth are saved, there will only be life—and there will be "...no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Colossians is talking to people on earth who are risen with Christ:

Colossians 3:
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Revelation 21:
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

 

[rs3vans]

We are raised with Christ at our new birth.

It seems the Christian community is looking for a "collective" catching away—one that is at a specific time—moreover, we change the verbiage to fit the concept and call it the rapture. The following Colossians verses show differently. When we believe, Christ is our "life". We are in Him and He is in us. We are "caught away" or "risen with Christ"—when we are saved. Christ becomes our "life" because we are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God—we who believe, "...seek those things which are above..." and we become lights to the world. When we preach the Gospel to all nations (greek ethnos=ethnic groups), then the end will come. Christ is here now—in the believer—and those who will not believe and those who will serve the ways of the world, will pass away. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."—1Cor 15:52 When all on the earth are saved, there will only be life—and there will be "...no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Colossians is talking to people on earth who are risen with Christ:

Colossians 3:
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Revelation 21:
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

It seems to be that you are saying you do not believe in a rapture at all? If not, sorry for misinterpreting.

At any rate, I'd have to believe with you in a certain sense. Many are deluded into thinking that they will be taken away, caught up, raptured, etc... before the great tribulation so that they do not suffer God's wrath. This is just wrong. Enough Bible stretching and self-fulfilling justifications! Jesus comes 2 times! That's it! The Scriptures say so! Not once real quick to get the the believers outta there, then again to finish things up. When Jesus comes again, it will be a MOMENTOUS event, not something that will go unnoticed by over half the world. And when he comes back, along with all the souls of those who have died, he will take the souls of those who are still alive, and "in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye", resurrect us so that we can reign with him FOREVER!

This is not meant to incite debate, it's just what I believe - and what the Bible says. I have seen too many people spend half their life studying the rapture and trying to find hidden meanings and secrets within scripture to force into their theories. If I come across as harsh, that's because this is a BIG DEAL!

For all those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, I pose a question. What will you do if the day comes in which you realize you were wrong? Will your faith be strong enough to withstand? If so, good. If not, then would it not be a good idea to err on the safe side? I really hope that you (those who hold pre-trib views) can answer this question honestly instead of getting offended. If you are offended, this is a good sign that you might have gotten it wrong: Matthew 10:34-35.

 

[lightwait]

It seems to be that you are saying you do not believe in a rapture at all? If not, sorry for misinterpreting.

At any rate, I'd have to believe with you in a certain sense. Many are deluded into thinking that they will be taken away, caught up, raptured, etc... before the great tribulation so that they do not suffer God's wrath. This is just wrong. Enough Bible stretching and self-fulfilling justifications! Jesus comes 2 times! That's it! The Scriptures say so! Not once real quick to get the the believers outta there, then again to finish things up. When Jesus comes again, it will be a MOMENTOUS event, not something that will go unnoticed by over half the world. And when he comes back, along with all the souls of those who have died, he will take the souls of those who are still alive, and "in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye", resurrect us so that we can reign with him FOREVER!

This is not meant to incite debate, it's just what I believe - and what the Bible says. I have seen too many people spend half their life studying the rapture and trying to find hidden meanings and secrets within scripture to force into their theories. If I come across as harsh, that's because this is a BIG DEAL!

For all those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, I pose a question. What will you do if the day comes in which you realize you were wrong? Will your faith be strong enough to withstand? If so, good. If not, then would it not be a good idea to err on the safe side? I really hope that you (those who hold pre-trib views) can answer this question honestly instead of getting offended. If you are offended, this is a good sign that you might have gotten it wrong: Matthew 10:34-35.

Over thirty years ago the trumpet blew, Christ came to sup with me as He did with Paul on the road to Damascus—I live in the Light of the world.

I am dead in Christ.

I am caught away and raisen with Christ, therefore, I seek the things which are above and not the things of the earth.

Christ who is life itself, caught me away, and I am now in Him as He is in the Father—the Life in me is my savior Christ Jesus.

Because I not just believe but know this, I know that I am in Christ and Christ is in me. I know that I have been caught away. I do not wait for His second coming, Christ Jesus already came for me and caught me away. Therefore, I do not believe Christ Jesus is coming for a collective and all at once. I know that Christ Jesus comes a second time for each who believe, to catch us away individually. I know that when all that live on earth have been caught away there will be no darkness—there will only be light.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I ask every person—Do you think that Jesus is returning as a physical male individual? Show me that in the Bible. Are you risen with Christ? Has Christ come to sup with you—personally? Is Christ in you? Is the Kingdom within you? Are you born again? I am!—I tell them. Moreover, I am caught away with Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."—I opened the door.

From the moment I met Christ Jesus, the Light of the world, I have not quit preaching and teaching the Gospel—every day and all day, to every living creature. My hope is that others will see the Kingdom within. I see the Light of Christ in every man in the world—however, some do not believe.

The Rapture, as it is given to the Christian community, is not a Biblical precept...

I do not, and will not, follow the doctrines of men, such as—the Rapture. Christ Jesus is not returning as a singular male individual, Christ Jesus, in His return is the glory of God and the Light of the temple.

2Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

The following is what I know and see:

Revelation 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Blessings to all of you, whether you "see" Christ and the Kingdom or not. The Kingdom is within:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[ElderPaul]

Hi, I'm a new member, and trying to make my mind up about which is biblical, pre- or post trib. Some teach that the gathering of the church will be before the tribulation, and others teach after. They both throw in a lot of human wisdom, but can any of you show me where Jesus, Paul, and the other writers of the new testament, make
a distinction in their writings, telling us there are two comings?

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

my $.02

..Prepair for Post-Trib

......Hope for Mid-Trib

.......Pray for Pre-Trib


:shade:


I'm a pre-Trib believer. The church will be caught up with the Lord... the two witnesses will be here
for the next 3 1/2 years bearing witness,
along with the 144,000 who've had a fresh revelation of who the Christ really is. Afterward,
the Jews will confess Jesus as Lord, and 2/3 will be struck down and 1/3 will be refined in the fire.
Afterwards, Jesus come's not as a thief to catch away His church,
but as King of kings and Lord of lords to bring the new Jerusalem to earth.



Rev 11:3,4-6
Zech 12:10
Zech 13:8-9


Reminder of grace: When Jesus comes back for his spotless bride, it's not because we're doing so good ; )

 

[rs3vans]

Hi, I'm a new member, and trying to make my mind up about which is biblical, pre- or post trib. Some teach that the gathering of the church will be before the tribulation, and others teach after. They both throw in a lot of human wisdom, but can any of you show me where Jesus, Paul, and the other writers of the new testament, make
a distinction in their writings, telling us there are two comings?

I'm afraid pre-trib would be nice, but it is a serious mis-interpretation of scripture. Here's why:

1) Jesus, as described in the bible under multiple accounts, has only two comings, not three.
2) Look at the Christians/Jews throughout the Bible. They are the most persecuted, most tried, and most subject to tribulation out of any group. This is how God works. He tries us here on earth because he wants us to love and have faith in him, and lean on him when things get tough. In this light, pre-trib is an escapist idea that doesn't mesh with God very well. Also, when the Bible says we are "not appointed unto wrath", this means we are not going to be subject to God's wrath. The great tribulation is a long (7 year) period where many judgements will come upon this Earth. Not all of them can be considered "wrath". During the great tribulation, those who lean on the Lord will recieve his miraculous help, and thus not be appointed unto his wrath.
3) The Bible speaks of a great "ingathering of souls". How shall this happen if Jesus takes every Christian away first? Will only two witnesses be credited for passing on the good news to more people than at any time in history? The great tribulation is a time of purification and edification for the church (the Body of Christ).
4) Read the account (from Jesus' own mouth) in Matthew 24. Jesus describes his second coming. He never speaks of a removal of the believers before the trib.
5) Paul tells us that we will be gathered up at the "last trump". This is the last of the seven trumpet judgments of the great trib (which marks Jesus' second coming).
6) Read all of Bible prophecy. There are 100+ chapters in the Bible on end-times prophecy. If you study them as a whole, you will see that a pre-trib rapture is just not in there.

I agree that we should "hope" for a pre-trib rapture. I hope that I am wrong. However, I am convinced that I am not. Therefore, I have to urge people to reconsider their views, and make sure they are prepared. It will be a great tradgedy, the number of believers that "fall away" (the Great Apostacy) because they expected to be raptured.

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

This strikes me as an oxymoron:

I'm afraid pre-trib would be nice

I'm full of hope of this. Not afraid of it

pre-trib is an escapist idea

those who lean on the Lord will recieve his miraculous help, and thus not be appointed unto his wrath.

In the account of Zechariah; all Isreal will look upon Him and realize who He has always been. If this is in fact is true, they will have come to believe.. and become the martyrs of the tribulation.

If you read and understand the account of the two witnesses, who I believe will be Elijah and Enoch, they have the power of God, and draw the worlds attention to themselves.. much the same as John the baptist did in his day.

On an unprecedented level.

..pre-trib rapture is just not in there.

Not to be disrespectful... but, where are your credentials and/or sources from? This has been discussed for ages..... & now you have the end all answer?

 

[ElderPaul]

Sorry, Lion-of-Judah, but you did not answer my question, and didn't give what I asked for. If there are two comings, show me where Jesus, Paul, or the other writers
make a distinction between the two, in their writings.

 

[lightwait]

To all of you. Please, I do not mean to be snide, derogatory or mocking in any direct or indirect way.

There is no person that can prove, in the Bible, a collective being caught away. What we can prove in the Bible, is individuals being caught away, one at a time, until the lot is done. When the sound of the last trump comes, we shall be changed.

1Co 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

We must get out of the law (the doctrine of men) and the ways of the world and into the Spirit to see the truth.

Col 3:
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

If you are raised with Christ, he has returned for you. Your labors now should be to preach the gospel to every nation (ethnic group) until all are saved and the last trumpet blows. Marvel not, you must be born again (in the Spirit) to see the Kingdom that is here, on the earth, and within us.

Blessings to you all...

 

[ElderPaul]

Brother, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a general gathering in the bible.

Jesus, when talking about everlasting life, says that the ones that believed on him,will be raised on the last day, and have everlasting life, John 6:40.

In the preceding verse, Jesus is talking about ALL the Father has given him, and in John 17:11, Jesus prays for those the Father has given him, and not just for the ones then, but for ALL, verse 20. Jesus says that "it" [ referring to ALL ] shall be raised up again AT the last day. THIS IS THE FATHERS WILL! ALL means all those who died as christians will be raised collectively [ all together at one time ].

Now we know that all that believe in Jesus [ born again ] will be raised up at the last day, what about the ones still alive on the last day? Paul says that they [ the dead ] will be changed into incorruptible, and "we" [ Paul thought that "the last day" might come in his lifetime ] will be changed. 1 Corint 15:52.

What are we changed into?

"For this corruptible [ those back to dust ] must put on incorruption,
and this mortal, [ those alive ] must put on immortality". Verse 53.
We shall bear the image of the heavenly.

My brother references Col. 3 "For if ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God".

The term "risen" in the above is not refering to rsurrection of the mortal
body. It is refering to being raised spiritualy after being buried with Christ in baptism, to walk in "newness of life", Romans 6:1-8.

My brother says, "If you are raised with Christ, he has returned for you".

My bible says that Jesus told his disciples that where he was going, they could not come, John 13:33. But that they would go where he was going later [ at the resurrection ]. Jesus did come in the person of the Holy Spirit, not to resurrect, but to comfort the believer, John 14:18. AND to testify of Jesus so that you can besr witness, 15:26,27.

Blessings to you, brother Lightwait

 

[Faithful Son]

Jesus did come in the person of the Holy Spirit, not to resurrect, but to comfort the believer, John 14:18. AND to testify of Jesus so that you can besr witness, 15:26,27.

Blessings to you, brother Lightwait

The words you have spoken are completely unsupported by the Bible.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two different Persons. We serve one God, whom is a triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and the Father is not Jesus etc.

The rules of this site and forum dictate that we use scripture to back up our claims, I strongly suggest you start doing that.

Lightwait, as per your posts, I can safely say that one of the greatest gifts of hope that Lord Jesus left us, His second coming, is not within you. I pity you for that, because you are living a life with no real goal, no end product.

I love Christ Jesus and I would hate to live a waking second without Him, but as God is my witness, I would not be the Christian I am today if I did not have the promise that my Lord is coming for me, in all His Power, Glory and Might.

Please post scripture pertaining to the sentence you are speaking of, don't post scripture that is unrelated to what you are speaking of.

This thread is 2 years old and I read it with a renewed understanding and faith, that whatever may come, He is alive.

 

[ElderPaul]

What did you do faithful Son, go through my whole post to try and find something wrong?

I was not infering that Jesus is the holy spirit, or visa-versa. Jesus said that he had to leave so that the Holy Spirit could come. The holy Spirit
resides in a Christian, starting when he is born again.

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him,
Col 2:6.

We are to represent Jesus in our actions, and talk. When people look at us, they should see Christ.

"and, lo, I am WITH you always, even unto the end of the world". Matt
28:20.

I know what the rules of this site are. You need to quit jumping to conclusions.

Did you read what else my post said? Do you agree?

 

[ElderPaul]

Faithful Son


Did you read my post on the 13th, and do you have an answer? I'm not

here to argue, I'm here to discuss.

May God bless you