Will people go to hell? What does the Bible say?

[KingJ]

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say unto you. (Jn. 13:1 ASV)

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. (Jn. 13:33 KJV)

Where He was going they could not go.

As they were still alive....

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Jn. 14:1-3 KJV)

In the context that they could not go where He was going. He said, " I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Since they couldn't go to Him He said He would come again so that they could be with Him.

Please grasp the lines '' In my Father's house are many mansions / I go to prepare a place for you''. He said 1. His Father's house, aka heaven. 2. He is going to prepare a place for us there. A mansion in heaven.

Case closed!

 

[Butch5]

As they were still alive....


Please grasp the lines '' In my Father's house are many mansions / I go to prepare a place for you''. He said 1. His Father's house, aka heaven. 2. He is going to prepare a place for us there. A mansion in heaven.

Case closed!

Nowhere in Scripture is Heaven called, "My Father's house". When Jesus spoke of "My Father's house" He was speaking of the temple. The temple had built onto the walls dwelling places for the priests who were serving. We know from Revelation that when He comes back the apostles will reign with Him. So we would expect Him to prepare a place for them in the New Jerusalem. Revelation also says believers will reign with Him. So we would expect Him to prepare those places.

There is no valid reason to conclude from this passage that people go to Jeaven when they die. Firstly, He told them they couldnt go. That really ends any speculation about any one going there. Secondly, He said nothing about Heaven. Thirdly, He said nothing about dead people. Fourthly, even if we allow that this is talking about going to Heaven, the only ones going there would be the disciple. This passage says nothing about anyone else going there.

There is absolutely no valid reason to conclude from this passage that people go to Heacen when they die. They only way to conclude that is to read into the text what isn't there.

 

[Br. Bear]

These two passages show a problem with defining them all as hell.

Greetings Butch5

yes, that is sort of what i was wanting us to look at because if all the words rendered Hell mean the same thing, why is it that they are three [or more?] different words with what seems to be somewhat unrelated roots and meanings?

So which words are more 'hell' that others? How do we decide that?
and then there is reference to 'outer darkness'. Does that fit one of the words that Brother Paul and B-A-C have presented so far? [you might have, also]

And if we find that one rendered 'hell' is more appropriately the 'hell' we often take it as, what of the other words used? ESPECIALLY if they make some sort of or direct indication of being 'cast into' or 'thrown into' or the like.

I note the Lake of Fire mentioned here and there [on the forums], also but is not hell tossed in the Lake of Fire in the Revelation account [at least] ?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Nowhere in Scripture is Heaven called, "My Father's house". When Jesus spoke of "My Father's house" He was speaking of the temple. The temple had built onto the walls dwelling places for the priests who were serving. We know from Revelation that when He comes back the apostles will reign with Him. So we would expect Him to prepare a place for them in the New Jerusalem. Revelation also says believers will reign with Him. So we would expect Him to prepare those places.

There is no valid reason to conclude from this passage that people go to Heaven when they die. Firstly, He told them they couldnt go. That really ends any speculation about any one going there. Secondly, He said nothing about Heaven. Thirdly, He said nothing about dead people. Fourthly, even if we allow that this is talking about going to Heaven, the only ones going there would be the disciple. This passage says nothing about anyone else going there.

There is absolutely no valid reason to conclude from this passage that people go to Heacen when they die. They only way to conclude that is to read into the text what isn't there.

that certainly is a valid point or two, on the surface, at least.
It is important to see what is said and prefer that to what is not said.
At the same time, we do need to see what is said elsewhere to bring the tapestry into focus for us.


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

The Bible does mention people going to heaven.

2 Kings 2:11; As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
2 Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

Obviously Jesus went to heaven.
Acts 1:2; until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
Acts 1:11; They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Now the interesting thing about 4 people who went to the heaven in the Bible. None of them were dead. Jesus is the only one who was resurrected.
Enoch didn't die a natural death. Elijah didn't die a natural death. and Paul was there when he was still alive. But the Bible doesn't mention any dead people going to heaven.

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34; "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

John 14:2; "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3; "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
John 14:4; "And you know the way where I am going."

Now where is His Father's house? Ah... the debate. But wherever this place is... it is still being prepared. It isn't ready yet.

Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

 

[Dave M]

The Bible does mention people going to heaven.

2 Kings 2:11; As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
2 Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

Obviously Jesus went to heaven.
Acts 1:2; until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
Acts 1:11; They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Now the interesting thing about 4 people who went to the heaven in the Bible. None of them were dead. Jesus is the only one who was resurrected.
Enoch didn't die a natural death. Elijah didn't die a natural death. and Paul was there when he was still alive. But the Bible doesn't mention any dead people going to heaven.

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34; "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

John 14:2; "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3; "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
John 14:4; "And you know the way where I am going."

Now where is His Father's house? Ah... the debate. But wherever this place is... it is still being prepared. It isn't ready yet.

Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

I just love this brother !!! man know his scripture !!!

 

[B-A-C]

This is a slight tangent, but bear with me... I will try to make it back.
There are over 30 verses in the NT that say the "Father" is in heaven. Here are a few examples.

Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matt 5:45; so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matt 6:1; "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
Matt 6:9; "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
Matt 7:11; "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 10:32; "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
Matt 10:33; "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Now it seems Jesus is with the Father.

Luke 22:69; "But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD."
Eph 1:20; which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Col 3:1; Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Heb 8:1; Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
Heb 12:2; fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It seems none of these verses ( Heb 8:1 might be the exception ) actually say the throne is in heaven. But they do say the Father is on the throne. Where is the Father currently?

So it seems that would settle it. But then the question is... Is the place where God is currently, the same place He will be after the millennial reign and resurrection?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings

Just for the record in a search we have the following to refer to regarding these three words, Hades, Lake of Fire and Gehenna (Hell)

I have referred to KJV & NIV for the first two words and KJV for Gehenna - Hell in the OT.

Hades - NT - NIV
- Matthew 11:23
- Matthew 16:18
- Luke 10:15
- Luke 16:23
- Rev 1:18
- Rev 6:8
- Rev 20:13
- Rev 20:14

* Although these are not in the KJV, they are in the NKJV

Lake of Fire - NT - KJV
- Rev 19:20
- Rev 20:10
- Rev 20:14
- Rev 20:15

Lake of Fire - NT - NIV
- Rev 20:14
- Rev 20:15

Gehenna - meaning Hell
Defined as - A place or state of torment or suffering where lost/condemned souls go.

2 Kings 23:8-10 (KJV)
8 And he brought all the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defiled the high places where the priests had burned incense, from Geba to Beersheba, and brake down the high places of the gates that were in the entering in of the gate of Joshua the governor of the city, which were on a man's left hand at the gate of the city.
9 Nevertheless the priests of the high places came not up to the altar of the LORD in Jerusalem, but they did eat of the unleavened bread among their brethren.
10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.

KJV - There are 31 references to Hell in the OT and 23 in the NT

Every word 'Hell' used in the OT has the same Strong's number and meaning

Hebrew Strong's Number: 7585
Hebrew Word: ‏שְׁאוֹל‎
Transliteration: sheʾôl
Phonetic Pronunciation:sheh-ole'
Hebrew Word: ‏שְׁאֹל‎
Transliteration: sheʾôl
Phonetic Pronunciation: sheh-ole'
Root: from <H7592>

Vine's Words: Ask (To), Sheol

English Words used in KJV:
grave 31
hell 31
pit 3
[Total Count: 65]

or she'ol, sheh-ole'; from <H7592> (sha'al); hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates :- grave, hell, pit.

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

KJV for Gehenna - Hell in the NT.

Hell is used 23 times in the NT - but uses 3 Greek words

Greek Strong's Number: 86 is used 9 times

Greek Strong's Number: 1067 is used 13 times

Greek Strong's Number: 5020 is used 1 time - 2 Peter 2:4 - Peter goes further and deeper!

The correct meaning of these translated words are as follows...

Greek Strong's Number: 86
Greek Word: ᾅδης
Transliteration: hadēs
Phonetic Pronunciation:hah'-dace
Root: from <G1> (as negative particle) and <G1492>

Vine's Words: Hades

English Words used in KJV:
hell 10
grave 1
[Total Count: 11]

from <G1> (a) (as a negative particle) and <G1492> (eido); properly unseen, i.e. “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls :- grave, hell.


Greek Strong's Number: 1067
Greek Word: γέεννα
Transliteration: geenna
Phonetic Pronunciation:gheh'-en-nah
Root: of Hebrew origin , <H1516> and <H2011>

Vine's Words: Hell

English Words used in KJV:
hell 9
hell fire + <G3588> + <G4442> 3
[Total Count: 12]

of Hebrew origin [<H1516> (gay') and <H2011> (Hinnom)]; valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figurative) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment :- hell.

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

I hilighted gay because it stood out as I added these translations!


Greek Strong's Number: 5020 (Just the one reference)
Greek Word: ταρταρόω
Transliteration: tartaroō
Phonetic Pronunciation:tar-tar-o'-o
Root: from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell)

Vine's Words: None

English Words used in KJV:
cast down to hell 1
[Total Count: 1]

from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment :- cast down to hell.

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Taking the translations from the previous post above, I have condensed them for easy comparison. Then looked at how the words and their meaning relate, there is a general meaning across the OT, a wider meaning in the NT though they all relate, except for one verse which stands out and has a deeper meaning. Hope this helps but I do welcome comments from all.

1 - Hell in the OT, all references have the same word meaning, this certainly helps.

SHEOL
Transliteration: sheʾôl ----- Phonetic Pronunciation:sheh-ole' ----- Hebrew Word: ‏שְׁאֹל‎
ALL references in OT mean... grave, hell or pit. Hebrew Strong's Number: <H7585>
ALL are taken from <H7592> (sha'al); hades or the world of the dead including its accessories and inmates :- grave, hell, pit.
SHEOL being the umbrella word for grave, hell and pit.
‎
2 - Hell in the NT, has 3 references

a) - HADES <G0086>
Greek Word: ᾅδης ----- Transliteration: hades ----- Phonetic Pronunciation:hah'-dace
Hades is referred to as hell 10 times, and as grave 1 time - Greek Strong's Number: <G0086>
“Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls :- grave, hell.

b) - GEENNA <G1067>
Greek Word: γέεννα ----- Transliteration: geenna ----- Phonetic Pronunciation:gheh'-en-nah
Hell is referred to 9 times, Hell Fire is referred to 3 times
Taken from the Hebrew origin- valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom),
a valley of Jerusalem, used (figurative) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment :- hell.
SHEOL being the umbrella word for grave, hell and pit.
“Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls :- grave, hell.

c) - TARTAROO <G5020>
Greek Word: ταρταρόω ----- Transliteration: tartaroō ----- Phonetic Pronunciation:tar-tar-o'-o
cast down to hell - this word is referred to just 1 time
Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell)

GEENA - the 3 references to 'hell fire' are...

Matthew 5:22 (KJV)
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18:9 (KJV)
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:47-48 (KJV)
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

To understand in context each section from the verses just mentioned, it is recommended further reading and study in full.

From the true translations stated in this post and the longer one from yesterday, my understanding is as follows, please do comment as to how you read the translated text.

As I cannot put the items I wish in tree form showing how I read the nature of the words and translations I will add as a single line starting from the key word, then the words related to it. Hope that makes sense.

SHEOL (OT-Hebrew) ----- refers to grave, hell and pit (Hades is the world of the dead)

SHOEL (NT Greek) ----- refers to the words hades, geenna and tartaroo (meaning grave or hell)

Hades - the place of departed souls

Geenna - a valley of Jerusalem - valley of (the son of) Hinnom; outside Jerusalem

Tartaroo - cast down to hell - (the deepest abyss of Hell)

Which link and come back to grave and hell.

2 Peter 2:4 is the only one that appears to stand out different to the others.
Foretelling of the coming false teachers and the coming destruction for them and their followers

2 Peter 2:1-6 (KJV)
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

This extreme punishment is therefore stated as being for... sinning angels, false prophets, false teachers.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The Bible does mention people going to heaven.

2 Kings 2:11; As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
2 Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

Obviously Jesus went to heaven.
Acts 1:2; until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
Acts 1:11; They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Now the interesting thing about 4 people who went to the heaven in the Bible. None of them were dead. Jesus is the only one who was resurrected.
Enoch didn't die a natural death. Elijah didn't die a natural death. and Paul was there when he was still alive. But the Bible doesn't mention any dead people going to heaven.

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34; "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

John 14:2; "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3; "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
John 14:4; "And you know the way where I am going."

Now where is His Father's house? Ah... the debate. But wherever this place is... it is still being prepared. It isn't ready yet.

Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Bless you brother

As I read this message, it felt like a breath of fresh air, inside I was saying 'prepare' the key word, 'prepare', I will reply to my dear brother, but as I got lower down your message I knew there was no need, you did it for us. As I read my heart was saying Emmanuel, God with us, then again you filled in the blanks, with Rev 21:2-3. Thank you brother.

God came down from heaven and walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve whom He had created, God came down from Heaven as Jesus, to be with man and teach us The Truth. Jesus is now in heaven at the right hand of the Father but He will return, come down, in Glory. Emmanuel God with us.

Thanks be to God.

 

[Brother-Paul]

This is a slight tangent, but bear with me... I will try to make it back.
There are over 30 verses in the NT that say the "Father" is in heaven. Here are a few examples.

Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matt 5:45; so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matt 6:1; "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
Matt 6:9; "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
Matt 7:11; "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 10:32; "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
Matt 10:33; "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Now it seems Jesus is with the Father.

Luke 22:69; "But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD."
Eph 1:20; which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Col 3:1; Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Heb 8:1; Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
Heb 12:2; fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It seems none of these verses ( Heb 8:1 might be the exception ) actually say the throne is in heaven. But they do say the Father is on the throne. Where is the Father currently?

So it seems that would settle it. But then the question is... Is the place where God is currently, the same place He will be after the millennial reign and resurrection?

Emmanuel - God with us, in the New Jerusalem, on the New Earth.

Haven't we got some exciting times ahead, God with us, Amazing love brother.

 

[Brother-Paul]

This is a slight tangent, but bear with me... I will try to make it back.
There are over 30 verses in the NT that say the "Father" is in heaven. Here are a few examples.

Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matt 5:45; so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matt 6:1; "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
Matt 6:9; "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
Matt 7:11; "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 10:32; "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
Matt 10:33; "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Now it seems Jesus is with the Father.

Luke 22:69; "But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD."
Eph 1:20; which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Col 3:1; Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Heb 8:1; Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
Heb 12:2; fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It seems none of these verses ( Heb 8:1 might be the exception ) actually say the throne is in heaven. But they do say the Father is on the throne. Where is the Father currently?

So it seems that would settle it. But then the question is... Is the place where God is currently, the same place He will be after the millennial reign and resurrection?

Emmanuel - God with us, in the New Jerusalem, on the New Earth.

Haven't we got some exciting times ahead, God with us, Amazing love brother.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings Butch5

yes, that is sort of what i was wanting us to look at because if all the words rendered Hell mean the same thing, why is it that they are three [or more?] different words with what seems to be somewhat unrelated roots and meanings?

So which words are more 'hell' that others? How do we decide that?
and then there is reference to 'outer darkness'. Does that fit one of the words that Brother Paul and B-A-C have presented so far? [you might have, also]

And if we find that one rendered 'hell' is more appropriately the 'hell' we often take it as, what of the other words used? ESPECIALLY if they make some sort of or direct indication of being 'cast into' or 'thrown into' or the like.

I note the Lake of Fire mentioned here and there [on the forums], also but is not hell tossed in the Lake of Fire in the Revelation account [at least] ?


Bless you ....><>

In total there are three places translated hell and then there is the Lake of Fire. Hades and Gehenna are used of people. Tartarus is not used of people. So for discussion we can eliminate Tartarus. That leaves Hades, Gehenna, and the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is only mentioned by John in Revelation. As I pointed out before, If we say the Scriptures are without error then we have to conclude that the Lake of Fire and Gehenna are one and the same, as John said the wicked would be cast into the Lake of Fire and Jesus indicates that they will be cast into Gehenna. That leaves us Hades and Gehenna as the two places where people go. Hades is often translated the grave. Sometimes it's translated as hell , however, it can be translated as grave everywhere it occurs. So one has to wonder why it is translated as the grave is some places and as hell in others. The question we should ask is, "what is hell"? The word hell doesn't appear in the original languages. According to the Oxford dictionary this is the meaning of the word Hell.

A place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering, often traditionally depicted as a place of perpetual fire beneath the earth where the wicked are punished after death.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.lexico.com

I think this fits with what the majority of people believe hell to be.

The next question we need to address is, "is this real" We have no way to verify this in the physical realm, so it has to be based "solely" on interpretation.

So, why is Hades, a location, translated as different places? I think most everyone would agree that the grave and hell are two different places. According to the definition from Oxford, hell is a place of perpetual suffering. If that is what hell is, and Hades is hell, then everyone will go to hell into perpetual suffering because everyone goes to the grave. Christians die and go to the grave. If Hades is hell a place of perpetual torment then it's where Christians go. This is why translating, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, as hell is so problematic. Hades is the grave. The word grave will fit everywhere Hades appears. Now, If Hades is the grave and not hell, a place of perpetual torment, it gives a whole new meaning to the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

Another point showing that Hades is the grave is the passage where we're told that death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna. If Hades is the place of fire and perpetual torment, how can it be cast into itself? It can't be. Note in the passage that death and Hades are related. Death and the grave are related. What do Christians gain victory over by being in Christ? Paul said,

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?1 (1 Cor. 15:51-55 KJV)

Speaking of the Resurrection he says, O death where is thy sting? O Hades, where is thy victory. The Christian has victory over death and the grave, Hades. In the Resurrection Christians are not gaining victory over a place of fiery perpetual torment. The Resurrection is victory over death and the grave as the dead will be raised to life coming out of their graves.

Given this, I would submit that the only place that comes close to the idea of hell is Gehenna. Jesus spoke of Gehenna fire. However, I would argue that those who burn in Gehenna are not living, are not souls or spirits, but as we see in Isaiah 66, are dead bodies. Gehenna is a location outside of Jerusalem where sacrifices where offered to foreign Gods. It's only fitting that the wicked should be destroyed in the very place they offended God.

 

[Butch5]

that certainly is a valid point or two, on the surface, at least.
It is important to see what is said and prefer that to what is not said.
At the same time, we do need to see what is said elsewhere to bring the tapestry into focus for us.


Bless you ....><>

I agree. I've looked at what is said on the issue. I don't see anything to support the idea that people go there.

 

[Butch5]

This is a slight tangent, but bear with me... I will try to make it back.
There are over 30 verses in the NT that say the "Father" is in heaven. Here are a few examples.

Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matt 5:45; so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matt 6:1; "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
Matt 6:9; "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
Matt 7:11; "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 10:32; "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
Matt 10:33; "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Now it seems Jesus is with the Father.

Luke 22:69; "But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD."
Eph 1:20; which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Col 3:1; Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Heb 8:1; Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
Heb 12:2; fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It seems none of these verses ( Heb 8:1 might be the exception ) actually say the throne is in heaven. But they do say the Father is on the throne. Where is the Father currently?

So it seems that would settle it. But then the question is... Is the place where God is currently, the same place He will be after the millennial reign and resurrection?

The Bible does mention people going to heaven.

2 Kings 2:11; As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
2 Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

Obviously Jesus went to heaven.
Acts 1:2; until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
Acts 1:11; They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Now the interesting thing about 4 people who went to the heaven in the Bible. None of them were dead. Jesus is the only one who was resurrected.
Enoch didn't die a natural death. Elijah didn't die a natural death. and Paul was there when he was still alive. But the Bible doesn't mention any dead people going to heaven.

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34; "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

John 14:2; "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3; "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
John 14:4; "And you know the way where I am going."

Now where is His Father's house? Ah... the debate. But wherever this place is... it is still being prepared. It isn't ready yet.

Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Good points! I would submit that Elijah and Enoch did die natural deaths. I would also suggest that going up into the heaven, doesn't necessitate going into "Heaven". In the creation account Moses called the sky heaven. However are told that some years after that event that Elijah sent a letter to a king.

11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah, and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because (2 Chr. 21:11-12 KJV)

So, it spears that after he was taken up he was placed somewhere else. We see this same thing with Phillip and the Eunuch.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came t (Acts 8:38-40 KJV)

It would seem this may have been the case with Enoch also, though we aren't told where he went. However, the passage doesn't say he went to Heaven. We are told that his years were 365.

23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. (Gen. 5:23-24 KJV)

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb. 11:5 KJV)

Here Paul uses two Greek words that are "transalted" and "translatinon". The Greek word that is translated "translated" means to transpose or to switch two things. The word translated "translation" means to transfer. We're not told where he was translated to. I think people assume he went to Heaven because it says "he should not see death". However, I would ask the question, what were the circumstances for which God translated him. Was Enoch's life in danger? Is this why God translated him? We're not told. But, again, the passage doesn't say he went to Heaven.

We really don't have to wonder if Enoch of Elijah went to Heaven or not because Jesus clears up any question when He says no man has entered into Heaven except Him.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 KJV)

About "My Father's house", I see where you're going. I agree that it's a reference to the Kingdom or New Jerusalem . In Revelation John wrote,

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.1 (Rev. 11:1-2 KJV)

John was told to measure the temple. So, there is a future temple. I believe this is what Jesus is referring to when He said He was going to prepare a place for the disciples.

 

[Butch5]

Taking the translations from the previous post above, I have condensed them for easy comparison. Then looked at how the words and their meaning relate, there is a general meaning across the OT, a wider meaning in the NT though they all relate, except for one verse which stands out and has a deeper meaning. Hope this helps but I do welcome comments from all.

1 - Hell in the OT, all references have the same word meaning, this certainly helps.

SHEOL
Transliteration: sheʾôl ----- Phonetic Pronunciation:sheh-ole' ----- Hebrew Word: ‏שְׁאֹל‎
ALL references in OT mean... grave, hell or pit. Hebrew Strong's Number: <H7585>
ALL are taken from <H7592> (sha'al); hades or the world of the dead including its accessories and inmates :- grave, hell, pit.
SHEOL being the umbrella word for grave, hell and pit.
‎
2 - Hell in the NT, has 3 references

a) - HADES <G0086>
Greek Word: ᾅδης ----- Transliteration: hades ----- Phonetic Pronunciation:hah'-dace
Hades is referred to as hell 10 times, and as grave 1 time - Greek Strong's Number: <G0086>
“Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls :- grave, hell.

b) - GEENNA <G1067>
Greek Word: γέεννα ----- Transliteration: geenna ----- Phonetic Pronunciation:gheh'-en-nah
Hell is referred to 9 times, Hell Fire is referred to 3 times
Taken from the Hebrew origin- valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom),
a valley of Jerusalem, used (figurative) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment :- hell.
SHEOL being the umbrella word for grave, hell and pit.
“Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls :- grave, hell.

c) - TARTAROO <G5020>
Greek Word: ταρταρόω ----- Transliteration: tartaroō ----- Phonetic Pronunciation:tar-tar-o'-o
cast down to hell - this word is referred to just 1 time
Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell)

GEENA - the 3 references to 'hell fire' are...

Matthew 5:22 (KJV)
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18:9 (KJV)
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:47-48 (KJV)
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

To understand in context each section from the verses just mentioned, it is recommended further reading and study in full.

From the true translations stated in this post and the longer one from yesterday, my understanding is as follows, please do comment as to how you read the translated text.

As I cannot put the items I wish in tree form showing how I read the nature of the words and translations I will add as a single line starting from the key word, then the words related to it. Hope that makes sense.

SHEOL (OT-Hebrew) ----- refers to grave, hell and pit (Hades is the world of the dead)

SHOEL (NT Greek) ----- refers to the words hades, geenna and tartaroo (meaning grave or hell)

Hades - the place of departed souls

Geenna - a valley of Jerusalem - valley of (the son of) Hinnom; outside Jerusalem

Tartaroo - cast down to hell - (the deepest abyss of Hell)

Which link and come back to grave and hell.

2 Peter 2:4 is the only one that appears to stand out different to the others.
Foretelling of the coming false teachers and the coming destruction for them and their followers

2 Peter 2:1-6 (KJV)
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

This extreme punishment is therefore stated as being for... sinning angels, false prophets, false teachers.

Hi Brother Paul,

I'm always cautious when looking at lexicons. Just like everything else the people who write them already have a belief system in place when the write them. I would question the idea that Hades is a place of departed souls. If it the grave as it's often translated it's a place of dead bodies, not souls.

In the passage from 2 Peter 2, the word that is translated hell in that passage is tartarus. I don't read that passage as saying false prophets go to tartarus, but rather that just as those angles cast there reserved for judgement so to will the false prophets be reserved for judgment.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Butch5

Greetings brother

When I study I clear the ground so to speak, start with a blank canvas and an open mind. Many find the open mind hard as they are influenced by what they already believe, you touched on that above. I then stand on step one, taking all the pieces of the picture and assess them, 'at that stage'. By keeping an open mind I only look at the components and those related to them, I then move to step two and do the same. It is a little like going upwards slowly and seeing over the hill, with each step you see more. The problem with this is when you are sharing these thoughts, because each step reveals other items not considered until you are on the step. The benefit (for me) is by the time I get the full view I have all the pieces that make up the picture and have assessed them as I progresses.

So you see what I have written has taken all the scriptures in the OT for hell, then all the scriptures in the NT for hell. Step 1.
I then moved to step 2, I checked all the translations for every reference to the word hell in the OT, they all had the same meaning. So I then did the same with the word hell in the NT and saw three differences, so at that stage compared the meaning for each against each other, then against the OT ones.

My post was therefore at this stage, taking no other method into consideration (e.g. worldly dictionaries), it was at that point I shared these stages and floated the findings for discussion with members. That would lead me to stage three, sharing with other believers.

When I study scripture I stick to scriptural aids that have been used for a long time, I avoid worldly dictionaries because they have only got their explanations from other sources and they are not necessarily written by Christians.

We all have our own ways of studying, for me, probably because I was a building surveyor, I bottom off and start at foundation level, building up from there.

It is an interesting topic, I am tempted (I hate that word), I am of a mind that, now would be a good place to make clear the human body God created, each component and what happens to each at last breath.

1 - the flesh body
2 - the living soul
3 - the spirit

I add living soul not just soul.

I do not believe adding this takes the thread off topic, I believe it is very important as we discuss do people go to hell, that we also discuss which people go to hell, which parts of the created body go to hell and which parts go else where.

Shalom brother.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5

Greetings brother

When I study I clear the ground so to speak, start with a blank canvas and an open mind. Many find the open mind hard as they are influenced by what they already believe, you touched on that above. I then stand on step one, taking all the pieces of the picture and assess them, 'at that stage'. By keeping an open mind I only look at the components and those related to them, I then move to step two and do the same. It is a little like going upwards slowly and seeing over the hill, with each step you see more. The problem with this is when you are sharing these thoughts, because each step reveals other items not considered until you are on the step. The benefit (for me) is by the time I get the full view I have all the pieces that make up the picture and have assessed them as I progresses.

So you see what I have written has taken all the scriptures in the OT for hell, then all the scriptures in the NT for hell. Step 1.
I then moved to step 2, I checked all the translations for every reference to the word hell in the OT, they all had the same meaning. So I then did the same with the word hell in the NT and saw three differences, so at that stage compared the meaning for each against each other, then against the OT ones.

My post was therefore at this stage, taking no other method into consideration (e.g. worldly dictionaries), it was at that point I shared these stages and floated the findings for discussion with members. That would lead me to stage three, sharing with other believers.

When I study scripture I stick to scriptural aids that have been used for a long time, I avoid worldly dictionaries because they have only got their explanations from other sources and they are not necessarily written by Christians.

We all have our own ways of studying, for me, probably because I was a building surveyor, I bottom off and start at foundation level, building up from there.

It is an interesting topic, I am tempted (I hate that word), I am of a mind that, now would be a good place to make clear the human body God created, each component and what happens to each at last breath.

1 - the flesh body
2 - the living soul
3 - the spirit

I add living soul not just soul.

I do not believe adding this takes the thread off topic, I believe it is very important as we discuss do people go to hell, that we also discuss which people go to hell, which parts of the created body go to hell and which parts go else where.

Shalom brother.

Hi Brother Paul,

I applaud you on your hermeneutics. I use a fourfold method of hermeneutics, It's called the Grammatical/Historical method, It relies on the authority of Scripture, a gramatical/historical interpretation of the Scriptures, sound logic, and confirmation with those closest to the apostles.

Your methodology is sound starting at the foundation and building upon it a piece at a time. This is how God has revealed Himself to man, a little at a time. I also agree with your desire to look at what a man is. In my opinion this is the crux of the matter. Is a man a living flesh being or is he a spirit living in a temporary flesh body that gets discarded after it dies? The answer to that question will answer the question of hell. If a man is a flesh being who returns to the dust when he dies, then he obviously cannot burn forever. If he is a spirit hat lives on after death, trapped in a flesh body, then it is possible that he could suffer forever. That's why I've addressed this in these threads about hell. It answers the hell question.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I totally agree brother, that was why I felt it right, to raise the subject at this point.

That is also why I listed the 3 components separately.

The two things that, I feel, cause so much confusion in discussions are...
- not considering or making clear the different situation for lost souls and saved souls, though many believe they are saved and are not, so confusion is inevitable.
- not considering which components of the God created body go to heaven and which do not, which can only be considered in light of the first consideration above. Which is also understandable due to not fully understanding and false teaching, especially by those who don't know, ministers included.

That said, I am an humble servant, still learning, always willing to admit it. But have a thirst for The Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but The Truth in The Word. In Jesus Name Amen.

I will always listen to what anyone has to say regarding scripture, it doesn't mean I will accept it, but it does give me a thirst to take everything apart and rebuild it. From the bottom UP brother, I know no better way. Thanks be to God, The Word and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

I totally agree brother, that was why I felt it right, to raise the subject at this point.

That is also why I listed the 3 components separately.

The two things that, I feel, cause so much confusion in discussions are...
- not considering or making clear the different situation for lost souls and saved souls, though many believe they are saved and are not, so confusion is inevitable.
- not considering which components of the God created body go to heaven and which do not, which can only be considered in light of the first consideration above. Which is also understandable due to not fully understanding and false teaching, especially by those who don't know, ministers included.

That said, I am an humble servant, still learning, always willing to admit it. But have a thirst for The Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but The Truth in The Word. In Jesus Name Amen.

I will always listen to what anyone has to say regarding scripture, it doesn't mean I will accept it, but it does give me a thirst to take everything apart and rebuild it. From the bottom UP brother, I know no better way. Thanks be to God, The Word and the Holy Spirit.

A search for the truth is what got me really studying seriously. I had been in a church that taught a person could lose their salvation and later in one that taught one couldn't. I believe that the Scriptures are without error so that meant one of those churches was wrong. Through my searching I was lead to study the early Christians and what they believed. I also came a across a group that does deep studies and studies in the original languages. Being part of this group has been extremely beneficial. However, it also meant having an open mind and setting aside my presuppositions. I used to believe many of the things that others have said. It's only after serious and deep study that I came to different conclusions.

 

[Brother-Paul]

You seem to think as I think my friend, it is my salvation, I must know the Truth.

Having an open mind is key for me, never rule things out, suss them out. Another way I try explain is to step outside the window, see it from above, try see things as God sees them, we never can totally but stepping out of the frame is good practice, I am not influenced by my own thoughts or beliefs.

People can have some very strange ideas that are scripture based. False teachers who do not realise it.

Blessings.