You say your a christian and don't go to church ??

[Bendito]

Of course. I have been studying covenant for a long time. I understand blood covenant. I'm saying though, that we have standards of conduct among our fellow Christian brethren but we are not in covenant with them. When did you cut covenant with anyone?
The New Covenant was not entered into by you, nor me. Jesus was the only human ever to enter into the New Covenant with the Father..He ratified it with His blood. We are the beneficiaries of it. Not the covenant makers.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Starting in Acts and through to Jude. Its all through the New Covenant, but there is no place that we should be a member of an organized church. There is lot that says 'if you are a Christian then you ARE a part of the body.

Hebrews 13:17

Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

 

[Bendito]

Hebrews 13:17

Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

That does not say we are in covenant with them. It says that God placed Christians in general in a structured system. Again though. The organized churches, in general, do not follow scriptural principle but their own way. Leading the people into ignorance by their own rules.
I've already said that the majority of Christians NEED to be in a structured society of believers. But that is still not a covenant between them and any organization. Christians are beneficiaries of the Covenant between Jesus and the Father and did not cut any covenant for this dispensation.

 

[Hekuran]

Hebrews 13:17

Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

That's a powerful verse. Thank you.

I am finding the talk of institutions, man-made religion, marketing programmes, money and building obsession troublesome. Surely it is abundantly clear in every part of the New Testament that the church is instituted by God, that we are to live in sharing community, mutually accountable, and submitting to the authority of the leaders that God has raised up.

I find the claim that it is possible to live out the Christian life with submitting to, and being nourished by a church fellowship deeply unconvincing. None of the people that have had an influence on the growth of my faith have operated outside a church community.

This has nothing to do with the outward trappings of buildings, denominations and organisation of the community, and everything to do with a people who are committed to each other because they live under the lordship of Jesus Christ.

 

[Bendito]

That's a powerful verse. Thank you.

I am finding the talk of institutions, man-made religion, marketing programmes, money and building obsession troublesome. Surely it is abundantly clear in every part of the New Testament that the church is instituted by God, that we are to live in sharing community, mutually accountable, and submitting to the authority of the leaders that God has raised up.

I find the claim that it is possible to live out the Christian life with submitting to, and being nourished by a church fellowship deeply unconvincing. None of the people that have had an influence on the growth of my faith have operated outside a church community.

This has nothing to do with the outward trappings of buildings, denominations and organisation of the community, and everything to do with a people who are committed to each other because they live under the lordship of Jesus Christ.

I'll say it just once more...The majority of Christians NEED to be in a structured society of believers. Nonetheless...One NEEDS to be where God plants them. If that is outside of an organized church assembly, so be it. It's God who does the teaching, its God who calls the shots. My friend Hekuran I strongly suggest you stay in your organization. You need it. Bloom where you are planted my friend. Others, whom God calls out of that structure will not bloom in that structure. They will bloom elsewhere. Home churches, internet church or whatever. God is the teacher, counselor, He is the author and the finisher of our faith.

 

[Hekuran]

That misses my point. All Christians should be a part of a fellowship in which they submit to each other, grow and nurture each other. There is no substitute for it. There is no whisper of a notion anywhere in the New Testament that anyone should be outside the fellowship of believers.

How could God call someone to be outside a church assembly? The very idea makes no sense to me at all, and I can reconcile it with no part of the Bible I can think of. Even where churches were going badly wrong (Corinth, Laodicea) the apostles never hinted that anybody would be better off away from the church.

Most of the first churches probably most closely resembled house churches. But there was still clear leadership and accountability. I would still look at the description of the fellowship of the first believers as a template for the church, and from that, 'internet church' cannot be adequate. As wonderful as the internet can be, neither baptism nor communion can be shared over the internet.

 

[Sue J Love]

The pastor is NOT the one who tells anyone to do anything. He is a servant, like the demons and the elders.

I assume you meant deacons and elders?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Blessings to All.
I am not going stay in a thread in which constantly words are released against the church or God's Servants.

Scripture says pray not gripe and complain.
; )
Blessings

 

[Bendito]

I assume you meant deacons and elders?

Oops. It was a tip of the slung A Freudian slip?

 

[Bendito]

That misses my point. All Christians should be a part of a fellowship in which they submit to each other, grow and nurture each other. There is no substitute for it. There is no whisper of a notion anywhere in the New Testament that anyone should be outside the fellowship of believers.

How could God call someone to be outside a church assembly? The very idea makes no sense to me at all, and I can reconcile it with no part of the Bible I can think of. Even where churches were going badly wrong (Corinth, Laodicea) the apostles never hinted that anybody would be better off away from the church.

Most of the first churches probably most closely resembled house churches. But there was still clear leadership and accountability. I would still look at the description of the fellowship of the first believers as a template for the church, and from that, 'internet church' cannot be adequate. As wonderful as the internet can be, neither baptism nor communion can be shared over the internet.

I do wonder....At what point in time did Christians start to gather in huge cathedrals, in huge crystal palaces and huge fancy buildings and call it the only way to attend church. At what point in time was the church converted to mean a fancy building? At what point did the church decide that if you didn't gather into massive herds you were not gathering yourselves together? At what point did the church decide that its Gods will to be sheeple? God always had His individuals, His 'lone' players. God has always had a single man to speak to the leaders of different groups. Where in the bible does it say we are supposed to gather in large crowds. Where in the bible does it say that six people gathered together is not 'gathering yourselves together? Or four people, or even two people? Show me in the bible. All spiritual snobbery aside....Let's have it true according to the WORD

 

[Sue J Love]

That misses my point. All Christians should be a part of a fellowship in which they submit to each other, grow and nurture each other. There is no substitute for it. There is no whisper of a notion anywhere in the New Testament that anyone should be outside the fellowship of believers.

How could God call someone to be outside a church assembly? The very idea makes no sense to me at all, and I can reconcile it with no part of the Bible I can think of. Even where churches were going badly wrong (Corinth, Laodicea) the apostles never hinted that anybody would be better off away from the church.

Most of the first churches probably most closely resembled house churches. But there was still clear leadership and accountability. I would still look at the description of the fellowship of the first believers as a template for the church, and from that, 'internet church' cannot be adequate. As wonderful as the internet can be, neither baptism nor communion can be shared over the internet.

Notice the picture at the end of the video depicting the "body of Christ." It is a building with a steeple on top. That is not the body of Christ. That is a building, and it is an organization, and probably a corporation under the headship of the federal government, which makes it a business, just like any other business. And, if the church does exist within that building, i.e. if this is where they meet, and they have incorporated under the feds, then they have unequally yoked together with unbelievers, which God forbids, and they have looked to "Egypt" for protection and support instead of looking to God, and they have turned the house of prayer, the body of Christ, into a marketplace, all three things which scripture forbids. Not only that, but this is speaking of Babylon, and God has commanded his true church to come out of her so that we do not share in her sins and in her punishment, because her sins are piled high to heaven, so joining in with her would also be against scripture, so strike 4.

For me, it IS NOT that God has called me outside a church assembly, i.e. outside the gathering together of the body of Christ in unadulterated relationship with Jesus Christ, who are meeting together for the teaching of the Word, prayer, the breaking of bread and fellowship. He has called me out of Babylon, which is the church living in adultery with the US government (here in America), in an unholy union, and he has called me out of the worldly, adulterated, and sensual church which has turned the church into a marketplace and has thus diluted the gospel to make it more appealing to human flesh. This is not the body of Christ meeting together for the purposes for which ACTS 2 dictates. These are businesses which are run just like businesses, and they will lie, cheat, steal, abuse and step on those who get in their way, i.e. who stand on the Word of God and who do not compromise with the world. Most of these "churches" are not about Acts 2 or 1 Co. 12 or Ro. 12 or Eph. 4, etc. but they are businesses with customers and they are appealing to the flesh of these customers because they want them to come back. They pack the auditorium with people of the world and then they entertain them with more of what the world is offering, only maybe a slightly cleaned up version, and everything follows marketing 101. It is all about drawing the world into the "church" using worldly means and methods, and this represents a vast majority of America's churches, cross-denominational. So, I obeyed the Lord, and I came out of Babylon.

So, Christian websites are where I am part of the body of Christ, where I can minister, receive and give teaching, use my gifts, receive encouragement, and fellowship with other believers, plus I have a little of this in our apartment building, too. But, other than to disobey God by going to a business which calls itself a church, but is run just like any other business, and is in partnership with the gov., I don't presently have an avenue to participate in such a structured church setting as what you describe. We are not in the same situation as the early church. They came out of the Jewish religion, and they met together, at least initially, in unadulterated fellowship with God and with each other, but I have not found that in any institutional church, and I have attended many over my lifetime. Still a business is not the church, even though the church may exist within it. Just because a group of Christians meet together at a restaurant does not make that restaurant the church, either. And, God is calling his church to come of this Babylon. Maybe if more of us left Babylon and decided to go back to meeting in the manner of the early church, there wouldn't be some of us who have to get our fellowship on the internet. But, this is where God sent me, and this is where I am, and I have found on here more of Acts 2, Eph. 4, 1 Co. 12 and Ro. 12 than I have found inside the doors of the institutional church in probably 40 years now.

 

[Curtis]

The Church is not being built here on earth, it is being built were the chief corner stone has been laid which is on Mt Zion the city of the living God the Heavenly Jerusalem.
We are the "living stones" which are the building blocks that make it up.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1Peter 2:5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Peter 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

 

[Sue J Love]

John 10 (Select vv. NIV)

“Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father…”

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

 

[Sue J Love]

Zeal for Your House
An Original Work / August 1, 2016

Based off Jn. 2:17; Ps. 69:9

Zeal for Your house, it consumes me.
Lord, I love my times with You.
I love to worship You and sing Your praises.
Time in Your Word brings me closer to You,
List’ning to You speaking to me,
Gently guiding me in truth.

Lord, You are my life’s example,
Showing me how I should live.
I love to walk with You where’er You lead me.
No greater joy have I when serving You.
Loving, giving, resting in Your strength,
I’m yielding to Your will.

Zeal for Your house, it consumes me.
See the church turned upside down:
Marketing ventures taking place of worship,
Men of the gospel turning into clowns.
Gospel message made appealing,
So the world will feel at home.

Lord, we need a great revival.
Turn their hearts, Lord, back to You.
Open the blind eyes, turn them all from darkness,
Lord, to the light. May they return to You,
Turn from their sin, forsake idols,
Be restored to God again.

 

[Lanolin]

Sue, please stop this right now. You ask why I 'go' to church.

BECAUSE I HAVE NO PHYSICAL HOME TO INVITE PEOPLE TO!!! I live with unbelieving parents. My home is at church with other believers in the body of Christ do you not get it?! And yes we do happen to meet in a building so we don't get wet when it pours with rain and our bibles don't get soaked. And yes there are regular times we gather because there's lots of believers and we all like to gather at certain times of the day and YES that takes some organisation but we all do it together and work together. And yea we call that building a church just so people don't mistake it as a gathering place for politicians.

Why are you complaining all the time? Are you not able to discern where believers gather or just want to be divisive? We aren't all rich middle class people with our own homes you know.

 

[Lanolin]

If it's that bad why don't you just call the buildings 'christian meeting centres' like some of them do. Do you not know Jesus gave his life for the church so don't try and sully it's name by trying to suggest there is something wrong with gathering in one place and maybe even inside a building and calling it a church. I mean what else would you call it. We don't call them temples, our body is the temple and we are living stones, but where we gather especially if its somewhere permanent, ie if we not renting it why not call it a church. There is NOTHING wrong with saying that's where you go and have the Lord's supper cos it's with other believers!!

After all the building is really just a big house and some believers like to gather in one place on a regular basis. We can't stay in our own homes all the time! It's a place where we all share together. Nothing wrong with that. Even the book of Acts said the early believers had ALL THINGS IN COMMON.

I even have the key to a church, cos I do flowers there. I go to different churches where the spirit leads me. I know I will find believers there more often than not rather than some random house or a shopping mall!

 

[Sue J Love]

Sue, please stop this right now. You ask why I 'go' to church.

BECAUSE I HAVE NO PHYSICAL HOME TO INVITE PEOPLE TO!!! I live with unbelieving parents. My home is at church with other believers in the body of Christ do you not get it?! And yes we do happen to meet in a building so we don't get wet when it pours with rain and our bibles don't get soaked. And yes there are regular times we gather because there's lots of believers and we all like to gather at certain times of the day and YES that takes some organisation but we all do it together and work together. And yea we call that building a church just so people don't mistake it as a gathering place for politicians.

Why are you complaining all the time? Are you not able to discern where believers gather or just want to be divisive? We aren't all rich middle class people with our own homes you know.

Lanolin, I am sorry about your home situation. I empathize. I did not know. I was merely responding to your question as to where you would send your friend, and I made a suggestion. Please do not take offense. No offense was intended, I assure you.

Regarding what I have been sharing, I am teaching what the Bible teaches, and what God leads me to share. I am not complaining nor am I being divisive. I am supporting the teachings of scripture, and I am expressing the heart of God in these situations of which I spoke about. I don't know your situation in your country. I am talking about the vast majority of American congregations which have partnered with the US government in an unholy union (2 Co. 6:14-18), which is against scripture, and who have literally turned the house of God into a marketplace (Jn. 2:13-22), which is also against scripture, and who have turned to their "Egpyt" (a reference to Is. 36) for support rather than God, which is also against scripture. Many of them have turned to the ways of the world and are busy entertaining the world instead of calling the world to repentance and God-given faith in Jesus Christ, and God has said we must come out of this Babylon (Rev. 18:4-5) so we don't share in her sins or in her punishment, because her sins are piled high to heaven. So, I am sharing God's Word and what it teaches, for this is what God has called me to do.

If this does not apply to your local congregation, then praise the Lord! I am happy for you!

I certainly, also, was not suggesting everyone is rich and has their own home. My husband and I live in a high-rise apartment complex. We live on Social Security. I am able to meet with people here and share Christ with them and even disciple people who want to be discipled. So, a home is not necessarily a house. You can have Bible studies anywhere, too, like at a mall, or at a restaurant, and you don't have to buy a meal in some places, either, maybe just get a cup of coffee, and if you can't afford it, then go to a food court in a mall, if you have such a thing, where you can sit and talk with people without having to purchase anything. There are ways to meet with people besides in church buildings, and where we can share Christ and disciple them. But, your situation may be entirely different from what I have been talking about, and you may, indeed, be functioning as God intended, so again, if that is the case, then praise be to God! I am happy for you. But, I must keep teaching what God's Word teaches, and I must keep giving out the messages he has for me to give. I have to obey God rather than man, as the disciples said.

 

[Lanolin]

Ok, well meeting in a shopping mall is not really conducive to prayer and bible study I found. There are too many distractions..and then you have to pay for a coffee or hot drink cos you cant just go there and ask for free water.

And its noisy.

Im sorry the situation in the US is so bad that many churches have joined hands with babylon. In that case Jesus tells them to repent and go back to their first love.

 

[Lanolin]

Perhaps address your letter to the church in america. Just to make it clearer.

In revelation Jesus did get John to address his letters to different churches in different locations and you will see most did have failings and were not perfect. Jesus admonishment was said in love but he didnt say that every church was the same.

 

[Sue J Love]

Perhaps address your letter to the church in america. Just to make it clearer.

In revelation Jesus did get John to address his letters to different churches in different locations and you will see most did have failings and were not perfect. Jesus admonishment was said in love but he didnt say that every church was the same.

Lanolin, the letter (Dear Church Member) was addressed to church members in general, because most of it applied or could apply to the church anywhere, but where I believed it applied to America, I made that clear in the letter, but that is not saying it could not apply in other countries, too.

As far as on this thread, the OP (the original poster) is American, but my opening response on here could also have applied to the church anywhere. It may not be specific just to America, but America is what I know. I know that Babylon, in general, is not just American, so the call to come out of Babylon is given to the church, as a whole. I believe there are churches in other countries to which this may apply, as well, for I know some which are under the authority of their governments, too. But, I can't speak for other nations because I don't know their situation, but it may apply elsewhere, too.

Although I am aware of much of what is going on in America within today's modern church movement, that is not to say that everything I have shared only applies to America. Each person reading this must examine for themselves what applies to them and what does not apply to them, although the teachings of Christ and of his NT apostles to the church, unless obviously specific to a particular time or situation, are for the church, as a whole.