Pre-trib Rapture: A popular but false doctrine

[Admon Mikha'el]

No it's NOT. It's a heresy invented by John Nelson Darby. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 is talking about mass RESURRECTION - when Christ returns as the Bridegroom AND the King of Kings, same as 1 Cor. 15:50-58, that's our real blessed hope, not raptured into heaven. Yeshua compared it to the days of Lot and the days of Noah, check out the reference in Genesis, Lot was delivered to Zoar (Gen. 19:20-23), Noah and his family went into the Ark (Gen. 7:1), neither went to heaven or ascended into the sky.


Sorry, brother, biblical definition for that "air" is NOT high up in the sky as most people think, but a general reference of this fallen world. This definition is given in Ephesians 2:2 - Satan is the prince of the air. Therefore when we meet Yeshua, that's when He came to this world to establish His kingdom - in THIS WORLD.

Well you don't have to worry about it...Those caught up are the ones who have made themselves ready and are watching for Him...The rest will go through the tribulation period and meet Him on the other side.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

The issue I have with a pre-trib theory is it is not stated in the bible anywhere, and the bible says Jesus only comes back one more time, not two more times.

Now when I was taught the pre-trib theory they would say Jesus coming in the clouds does not count as his second coming he has to touch the ground for that to count. I personally have an issue with it and would not believe it. Since when does being in the earth's atmosphere not count as being on earth??

The Bible clearly says Jesus' return is after the tribulation, anyone stating anything different is speculating at best, with no scripture to back it up. There is NO scripture that says Jesus returns prior to the tribulation to remove the church NON at all. Yes, people take verses out of context and read into them and base their opinion on that. For example, many claims that the blessed hope is the rapture of the church, yet my blessed hope is Jesus whenever he comes.

You probably would not see it if you keep superimposing two separate events (the rapture and the second coming) into one event

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

If I may interject a thought. Salvation is through the blood of Jesus Christ. The rapture is Jesus christ coming to meet all born-again believers and rescuing us from this mess of the world. It is Not anyone's praying to God to rescue us from this mess. It's not escapism.

Yes it is escapism, as a result, people just play religion, stop engaging with evil and wait for this escape.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Yes it is escapism, as a result, people just play religion, stop engaging with evil and wait for this escape.

You'd better believe its escapism....Jesus promised we'd escape the wrath to come if we walked in His anointing! But escapism is not spoken of in the bible....Like so many other things you throw out because the bible says nothing about

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

How long have 'Christians' been fighting over this, and for what? Two thousand years? Now though it seems to be heating up. "Where is the promise of His coming?" they ask. Wake up people! You cannot overlap two separate events and then fight over the resulting confusion. Believe the Word as its written...Don't read the Word as you believe it......Don't presume to tell God what He means when He says something!

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You'd better believe its escapism....Jesus promised we'd escape the wrath to come if we walked in His anointing! But escapism is not spoken of in the bible....Like so many other things you throw out because the bible says nothing about

Oh really? Jesus warned about intense persecution of the Church, which was fulfilled as soon as the hatred against the early church in Acts. He never promised that we'll "escape" from this wrath, and that's your big mistake. You're conflating the wrath of God with the wrath of Satan. The church will surely be spared from the wrath of God, but not the wrath of Satan, God is using that to test our resolve and faith.

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. - Matt. 24:9-13

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Oh really? Jesus warned about intense persecution of the Church, which was fulfilled as soon as the hatred against the early church in Acts. He never promised that we'll "escape" from this wrath, and that's your big mistake. You're conflating the wrath of God with the wrath of Satan. The church will surely be spared from the wrath of God, but not the wrath of Satan, God is using that to test our resolve and faith.

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. - Matt. 24:9-13

Again you are using one thing to prove another....That IS tribulation but not THE tribulation....One, the first, you mention is a thing that has always been...The second is tribulation the like of which has not been see. The seven years of tribulation will be quite literally hell on Earth

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Again you are using one thing to prove another....That IS tribulation but not THE tribulation....One, the first, you mention is a thing that has always been...The second is tribulation the like of which has not been see. The seven years of tribulation will be quite literally hell on Earth

And that's why I told you that don't conflate the wrath of Satan with the wrath of God.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

And that's why I told you that don't conflate the wrath of Satan with the wrath of God.
Well, why would anyone fuse the two into one anyway? The wrath of God is the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan is his own brand...

The tribulation period is God turning His wrath on Satan and his followers, and Satan's puny attempts to beat God

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

And that's why I told you that don't conflate the wrath of Satan with the wrath of God.
Well, why would anyone fuse the two into one anyway? The wrath of God is the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan is his own brand...

The tribulation period is God turning His wrath on Satan and his followers, and Satan's puny attempts to beat God

The problem is not about this message, but the messaging, the way this message is being delivered from the pulpit to the pews. The common impression from any dispensationalist preacher is that the world is going down to hell in a handbasket whatsoever, which is presented with no distinction between the two, and we'll be "raptured" to escape from both. That's the "ecapism" attitude, and that's not in the Scripture.

 

[Garee]

Then according to you the 7 yr tribulation has already come and gone. And John Darby simply shared scripture that was already there. And Where do you get your information from. And Abel being an apostle?! And the Church is the Bride of Christ not His wife.

I would offer seven in parables the signified understanding of prophecy as parables equals "perfect or complete" . Nothing can be added to it or taken away from it as it is written.

Matthew 24:20-22King James Version But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath dayFor then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

In that way it has come and will stay till the last day under the Sun (temporal time)

The great tribulation as the beginning of the last days under the Sun the temporal time keeper. called athousand years a metaphor in parables . The first century reformation has come .There will be tribulation until the end of time.

The gospel continues to do it work of the Holy Father working in sons or daughter of mankind .... converting mankind.

The law as oral traditions of the Jewish fathers was passed on to the two forms of Catholicism .The Roman and Greek orthodox .

In the same way as the Pharisees with Sadducees two false sects that created a hierarchy government of men where the non venerable have there faith lorded over by the oral traditions of those kind of fathers .. What the eyes see after the god of this world false pride of this world .Non venerable seeking the approval of puffed up mankind.

They put aside their differences in order to create a hierarchy of men false gospel, false apostles the faithless pagan tradition.

Matthew 16 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? ...

This shows mankind has violated the warning and changed the meaning of apostle "sent messenger" (angel) into highly venerable ones .

Both words apostle and angel a new word coined were changed to make it complete(false gospel )

Deuteronomy 4:1-2King James Version4 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you Ye shall not add unto the word (single) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it,(single0 that ye may keep the commandments (all commandments plural) of the Lord your God which I command you.

Abel was the first sent with the gospel . . .the first listed martyr.The first member of the bride or wife of Christ the church .

Revelation 21:1-2King James Version And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

 

[Sue D.]

@Garee. -- consider this regarding parables. Matthew 22 : 1. And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said : the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king .... and in chapter 21 : 33 " hear another parable: there was a certain landowner...."

Then in chapter 25 : 1 and 14 start out with " then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to' and " the kingdom of heaven is like..."

Jesus is teaching what heaven is like in terms that the people could understand in their everyday lives.


Adam and Eve's first three children that are told about were Cain,.Abel

Abel kept sheep and Cain was a tiller of the ground. Cain ended up murdering Abel because God accepted the sacrifice of the sheep rather than Cain offering. So yiu feel that Abel wad a martyr for the cause of Christ.?! Jesus christ wasn't around until the New Testament.

 

[Sue D.]

And we're not told anything about Abel being the 1st to spread the Gospel. In the New Testament we have the the four gospels Matthew , Mark , Luke and John.

 

[Garee]

@Garee. -- consider this regarding parables. Matthew 22 : 1. And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said : the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king .... and in chapter 21 : 33 " hear another parable: there was a certain landowner...."

Then in chapter 25 : 1 and 14 start out with " then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to' and " the kingdom of heaven is like..."

Jesus is teaching what heaven is like in terms that the people could understand in their everyday lives.


Adam and Eve's first three children that are told about were Cain,.Abel

Abel kept sheep and Cain was a tiller of the ground. Cain ended up murdering Abel because God accepted the sacrifice of the sheep rather than Cain offering. So yiu feel that Abel wad a martyr for the cause of Christ.?! Jesus christ wasn't around until the New Testament.

Hi thanks for the reply

I would offer but first the term Jesus Christ must be defined. It does not refer to flesh and blood. Jesus like the word Joshua mean savior.

Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God that works in flesh and blood. Jesus said to Christ the Father. . . not as I will but you the one with power to finish

The parable found in Genesis 4 is also used the represent the first born of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God. the spiritual unseen seed Christ. The Son of man Jesus genealogy that began with Abel the second born . . . to represent our new birth. The genealogy given in Luke Genesis 4 points ahead to the revealed glory the three days and nights propmised denonstration of the Father working in the Son of man Jesus

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Seth was given to replace the second born to protect the spiritual seed .It was about more than Abel obeyed God and brought a bloody sacrifice. . It confirmed what God had said .

We must look to the foundation of a doctrine and not what some call the four gospels which is one gospel of Christ His gospel is after no man..not after the apostle, Abel, Samael, Mathew, Mary, Moses, luke, John .Deborah, . etc

David said if mankind destroys the foundation of the teaching of God . . .how could we rightly divide the whole book of prophecy the Bible? The end from the beginning.

In that way Christ is the Alpha and the Omega the author and perfecter of our new born-again faith a faith that alone comes from hearing God's understanding..as it is written

Genesis 4:3-4 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

The lord had respect of Abel’s born again spirit that worked with preaching the gospel. It offended Cain the atheist.

When approached by God as our Father. . . Cain exposed his source of lying. The father of lies a murderer from that very beginning with Abel . . .spoken of below. .

Cain is the one that buried him under the corn "out of sight out of mind" the foundation of paganism. . no belief in God not seen.. . not little none.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Abel our brother in the lord his blood cries out for the promised new body just as Jesus the Son of man.

God is not a man as us

Genesis 4:5-8 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

 

[Dave M]

Dave. Why do born-again believers need purification. Are you getting some of rcc belief in purgatory into it.

I can only speak for myself I need all the refining and purifying I can get, just because we are born again does not mean we are finished growing, How does one grow by going through tough times is one way,

 

[Sue D.]

Dave -- as born-again believers , we are to be growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. God leads us one day at a time. Everyday life can give us up's and downs to respond to. But there's no reason to Want to have problems in order to grow spiritually. Growing more like Christ, yes. None of us will be completely Anything until we are with Jesus christ. Weather it be the result of the rapture or dying physically.

 

[Curtis]

we're not told anything about Abel being the 1st to spread the Gospel.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. (NKJV)

Abel was one of the first persons to preach the Gospel. Even though he is "dead yet he still speaks today"
Abel by faith (which only comes from God) knew that it could only take a "blood atonement sacrifice" to redeem man back to God which is why God witness that he was righteous.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hi thanks for the reply

I would offer but first the term Jesus Christ must be defined. It does not refer to flesh and blood. Jesus like the word Joshua mean savior.

Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God that works in flesh and blood. Jesus said to Christ the Father. . . not as I will but you the one with power to finish

The parable found in Genesis 4 is also used the represent the first born of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God. the spiritual unseen seed Christ. The Son of man Jesus genealogy that began with Abel the second born . . . to represent our new birth. The genealogy given in Luke Genesis 4 points ahead to the revealed glory the three days and nights propmised denonstration of the Father working in the Son of man Jesus

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Seth was given to replace the second born to protect the spiritual seed .It was about more than Abel obeyed God and brought a bloody sacrifice. . It confirmed what God had said .

We must look to the foundation of a doctrine and not what some call the four gospels which is one gospel of Christ His gospel is after no man..not after the apostle, Abel, Samael, Mathew, Mary, Moses, luke, John .Deborah, . etc

David said if mankind destroys the foundation of the teaching of God . . .how could we rightly divide the whole book of prophecy the Bible? The end from the beginning.

In that way Christ is the Alpha and the Omega the author and perfecter of our new born-again faith a faith that alone comes from hearing God's understanding..as it is written

Genesis 4:3-4 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

The lord had respect of Abel’s born again spirit that worked with preaching the gospel. It offended Cain the atheist.

When approached by God as our Father. . . Cain exposed his source of lying. The father of lies a murderer from that very beginning with Abel . . .spoken of below. .

Cain is the one that buried him under the corn "out of sight out of mind" the foundation of paganism. . no belief in God not seen.. . not little none.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Abel our brother in the lord his blood cries out for the promised new body just as Jesus the Son of man.

God is not a man as us

Genesis 4:5-8 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

What parable in Genesis 4?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. (NKJV)

Abel was one of the first persons to preach the Gospel. Even though he is "dead yet he still speaks today"
Abel by faith (which only comes from God) knew that it could only take a "blood atonement sacrifice" to redeem man back to God which is why God witness that he was righteous.

Abel was considered righteous because he trusted God...not because his blood was shed

 

[Curtis]

Abel was considered righteous because he trusted God...not because his blood was shed

Abel did NOT offer himself, he offered a "blood sacrifice" How did Abel know what to offer? Faith only comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God told him what to offer!