★ Christians AREN'T perfect!

[RJ]

Who says that the "face to face" cannot occur before the dirt is shoveled on our faces

The Bible does!!! I am sorry if this may offend you but, I really don't think you understand what "Face to Face" means. You best go back and read Exodus 33:18-23

 

[RJ]

One of things we may not be able to see is a perfect Christian standing before us.

I am sorry but there is no such thing as a perfect Christian....that is prideful and satin talking. If there was a possibility of an individual Christian personally obtaining perfection, there would be no need of Christ. It is his perfection, holiness, blamelessness that God imparts to us ...not because of us!

 

[RJ]

o say We are not goes against the Word of God and is a lie of the deceiver. The devil wants you to believe you will never be perfect! I can hear The devil scream it.

That is it! You said it and you are so right...the devil doesn't want us to believe we will ever be perfect. But, God's perfect plan eliminates error....he does not have to rely on us....it is all about Jesus....It is his perfection in us that God sees and credits us with perfection...a fooproof plan to defeat the devil, while not relying on us for anything........I will say it time and time again: " It is ALL of him and NONE of us!!!!

 

[amadeus2]

God credits us with the perfection of Jesus in us, not ourselves.

• Are you more perfect than St. Paul...what does it mean when he said: Romans 7:14-20 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.c]" data-fn="#fen-NIV-28110c">[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.....(1) Why did he struggle doing what was right?

What must be perfect is the direction of our hearts. This is why David, in spite of his sins, was called a man after God's own heart or the apple of His eye. This is why Job in the very first verse of the Book bearing his name is called "perfect". It was not that they were sinless. It was not because they never made mistakes.

David was always struggling to do better. When he sinned in matter of Bathsheba and Uriah, he knew that the punishment for each offense under the law of Moses was death and he was willing to pay the price. Because he was really willing, this is why God looking at his heart forgave the sin and spared his life.

• What does it mean. " when the perfection comes" if we already can have it, why is it yet to come. In this verse, (2) what has happened for the "perfection" to finally come? [/quote]

See it in the question of overcoming. All of us who have met the Master have already overcome things that stood between us and God. But... have we already overcome everything that does or could stand between us and God. Consider Jesus: When he went up to be tempted by satan, Jesus overcame every one the temptations presented by the Word of God. Later we see Jesus in the Garden of Gethesemene tempted to not drink the cup that God had put before Him. He asked that the cup be removed, but when he three times, "nevertheless not my will but thine", he again was an overcomer.

Even as He was an overcomer each time he was also perfect each time in what he had already done...

Similarly each of walk with our Lord and overcomes (or should be) each of those things that in our way. At each point when we have completed a task as God desired, we are perfect in His eyes.

But... this is like a little child who did the right thing and his parents praised him for it. To them he was a perfect little angel. Then minute later when he though mama was not looking is little hand takes hold of a freshly baked cookie even though he had been clearly told he couldn't have any before supper. If mama is doing it all right, probably by the time the boy is 18 years old he won't break her rules about cookies any more.

Each time he does it right he is an overcomer and he is perfect. Then comes the next trial so that he can continue to grow and mature...

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

One step at the time:

"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." Isaiah 28:13

(3) What does it mean to see "face to face"...with who? 1 Corinthians 13: 8-12 but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." Mark 10:15

As a little child is with innocence and in that innocence there is a perfect little heart ready to be whatever is required to please those (parents, God) who love him. But... a child is a selfish creature. More selfishness is tolerated in an infant than in a toddler. More selfishness is tolerated in a toddler than in an 8 year old. More selfishness is tolerated in an 8 year old than in a teenager.

A very selfish adult is tolerated or like by few. In each of those stages there is perfection, but the perfection of the adult is only "dimly" seen by the teenager.

Whose face is it we are to see? What did God say to Moses?

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Ex 33:20

But was the face of God never to be seen? Consider this Psalm of David's:

"How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?" Psalm 13:1

And this one:

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

So then we come to the story of the healing I quoted previously:


"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

Men have been blind for a long time. Some men have started to see and perhaps at the first it was as through a "glass darkly", but as Moses who unable to see God face to face and as David who was seeking God's face, our vision could improve with God's help: We must have a vision:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

Are we, when it comes our salvation, seeing "every man clearly"? But, when it comes to other deeper things of God, are we still seeing "men as trees, walking"?

For the one thing our vision may be very clear, but for things it may still be quite dim or dark. Are we an infant, or a toddler, or an 8 year old, or a teenager, or a mature adult in the Lord?

So then what is the "face" we are looking to see? How clearly do we see it?

 

[amadeus2]

I am sorry but there is no such thing as a perfect Christian....that is prideful and satin talking. If there was a possibility of an individual Christian personally obtaining perfection, there would be no need of Christ. It is his perfection, holiness, blamelessness that God imparts to us ...not because of us!

You are not understanding what I said. My words would certainly be prideful if for my own glory and without God's direction I said I was a perfect man. Notice that I never said that.

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee." Luke 14:10

 

[RJ]

What must be perfect is the direction of our hearts. This is why David, in spite of his sins, was called a man after God's own heart or the apple of His eye. This is why Job in the very first verse of the Book bearing his name is called "perfect". It was not that they were sinless. It was not because they never made mistakes.

David was always struggling to do better. When he sinned in matter of Bathsheba and Uriah, he knew that the punishment for each offense under the law of Moses was death and he was willing to pay the price. Because he was really willing, this is why God looking at his heart forgave the sin and spared his life.

• What does it mean. " when the perfection comes" if we already can have it, why is it yet to come. In this verse, (2) what has happened for the "perfection" to finally come?

See it in the question of overcoming. All of us who have met the Master have already overcome things that stood between us and God. But... have we already overcome everything that does or could stand between us and God. Consider Jesus: When he went up to be tempted by satan, Jesus overcame every one the temptations presented by the Word of God. Later we see Jesus in the Garden of Gethesemene tempted to not drink the cup that God had put before Him. He asked that the cup be removed, but when he three times, "nevertheless not my will but thine", he again was an overcomer.

Even as He was an overcomer each time he was also perfect each time in what he had already done...

Similarly each of walk with our Lord and overcomes (or should be) each of those things that in our way. At each point when we have completed a task as God desired, we are perfect in His eyes.

But... this is like a little child who did the right thing and his parents praised him for it. To them he was a perfect little angel. Then minute later when he though mama was not looking is little hand takes hold of a freshly baked cookie even though he had been clearly told he couldn't have any before supper. If mama is doing it all right, probably by the time the boy is 18 years old he won't break her rules about cookies any more.

Each time he does it right he is an overcomer and he is perfect. Then comes the next trial so that he can continue to grow and mature...

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

One step at the time:

"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." Isaiah 28:13



"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." Mark 10:15

As a little child is with innocence and in that innocence there is a perfect little heart ready to be whatever is required to please those (parents, God) who love him. But... a child is a selfish creature. More selfishness is tolerated in an infant than in a toddler. More selfishness is tolerated in a toddler than in an 8 year old. More selfishness is tolerated in an 8 year old than in a teenager.

A very selfish adult is tolerated or like by few. In each of those stages there is perfection, but the perfection of the adult is only "dimly" seen by the teenager.

Whose face is it we are to see? What did God say to Moses?

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Ex 33:20

But was the face of God never to be seen? Consider this Psalm of David's:

"How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?" Psalm 13:1

And this one:

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

So then we come to the story of the healing I quoted previously:


"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

Men have been blind for a long time. Some men have started to see and perhaps at the first it was as through a "glass darkly", but as Moses who unable to see God face to face and as David who was seeking God's face, our vision could improve with God's help: We must have a vision:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

Are we, when it comes our salvation, seeing "every man clearly"? But, when it comes to other deeper things of God, are we still seeing "men as trees, walking"?

For the one thing our vision may be very clear, but for things it may still be quite dim or dark. Are we an infant, or a toddler, or an 8 year old, or a teenager, or a mature adult in the Lord?

So then what is the "face" we are looking to see? How clearly do we see it?
[/QUOTE]
You won't or can't answer the questions because it would not fit into your theology. You have no clue what Face to face means, when God told Moses exactly what it was, you completely ignore that. And, as far as, your refusing to explain the exact meaning of "perfection to come, in conjunction with that, I won't bother having you explain what it means when Paul said that prophecies will end and tongues will cease at the same time..because you are in denial!
You can have the last word...I am respectfully done....Best wishes and prayers for your maintaining you perfection!

 

[rag4aCrown]

The Bible does!!! I am sorry if this may offend you but, I really don't think you understand what "Face to Face" means. You best go back and read Exodus 33:18-23

God shows us ourself, brother. A face to face with self and the disgusting flesh being we are; we look through a glass darkly and then face to face. But first We must be in submission to God, humble ourself and pull the log out mine eye, so I may see clearly to help my brother with his stick.

 

[RJ]

we look through a glass darkly and then face to face.

Yes and this face to face is who?...and it is not self!

 

[amadeus2]

You won't or can't answer the questions because it would not fit into your theology. You have no clue what Face to face means, when God told Moses exactly what it was, you completely ignore that. And, as far as, your refusing to explain the exact meaning of "perfection to come, in conjunction with that, I won't bother having you explain what it means when Paul said that prophecies will end and tongues will cease at the same time..because you are in denial!
You can have the last word...I am respectfully done....Best wishes and prayers for your maintaining you perfection!

I am very sorry to have this end with harsh feelings on your part.

My theology as you call it is a day to day thing between me and God, which is changing.

On His face, I mean that I am [and each believer is] seeing His face through a lattice and as we grow, if we are growing, the spaces between the cross bars of the lattice grow smaller all of the time so that we can see more and more of Him all of the time. What is this face that we see? It is not the face of a man. What does it look like? It is described with lots of detail in scripture yet it cannot be seen at all without the help of the Holy Spirit. You want more than that? Remember my friend that only God gives the increase.

Prophecies will end and tongues will cease because all of us who have come to see His face will know as He knows and will speak as He speaks and understand as He understands.

You are talking about the end of faith when the faith of those really living by faith has finally and completely been replaced by perfect knowledge, but the way to that end is through each believer who is growing toward that end.

That speaks of the whole Body of Christ with Jesus firmly in place as the Head. All of the parts, the you and the me who will form the parts, must be perfect before they can be joined together perfectly.

 

[rag4aCrown]

Yes and this face to face is who?...and it is not self!

Brother, why so nasty? Maybe you should look at yourself and you wouldn't be so nasty.
Just maybe God will bless you with vision. For the mouth tells on the heart; the Spirit tells on the spirit. Amen.
Humble yourself before Him; He will show you all things.
He may introduce you to perfect love, it casts out fear, you know.
All praise glory and honor be unto God. Amen

 

[rag4aCrown]

I am very sorry to have this end with harsh feelings on your part.

My theology as you call it is a day to day thing between me and God, which is changing.

On His face, I mean that I am [and each believer is] seeing His face through a lattice and as we grow, if we are growing, the spaces between the cross bars of the lattice grow smaller all of the time so that we can see more and more of Him all of the time. What is this face that we see? It is not the face of a man. What does it look like? It is described with lots of detail in scripture yet it cannot be seen at all without the help of the Holy Spirit. You want more than that? Remember my friend that only God gives the increase.

Prophecies will end and tongues will cease because all of us who have come to see His face will know as He knows and will speak as He speaks and understand as He understands.

You are talking about the end of faith when the faith of those really living by faith has finally and completely been replaced by perfect knowledge, but the way to that end is through each believer who is growing toward that end.

That speaks of the whole Body of Christ with Jesus firmly in place as the Head. All of the parts, the you and the me who will form the parts, must be perfect before they can be joined together perfectly.

Praise God how the Spirit in you is stirred.
With each stirring comes greater revelation. Amen
Yes, Faith IN HIM, not self.
Yes, confident IN HIM, not self.
With God, all things are possible. Glory be to God. Amen

 

[amadeus2]

As I [and every other man] stumble along the way, I let out some of my garbage. When I do or say something right then it is God in me leading the way. Then, yes then, give God the glory!

 

[RJ]

I am very sorry to have this end with harsh feelings on your part.

I have no "harsh feelings" that is your conception, not mine. Maybe you feel some form of chastisement , I don't know? All I have continued to contend, that to me, A Christian can not be perfect. That doesn't mean that God does not credit yo with Christ's perfection...in that since, it is Christ's perfection and not your own. Essentially you say you can achieve perfection...I say the only way "your" perfection would be of any importance, would be for you to personally do that 24/7..never failing...I say that you are not capable of that. Coupled with that and the "fact", that you refuse to acknowledge what the term "face to face" and "coming perfection" really means, we continue to disagree but, harsh feelings....not true! Those are words not mine!

 

[RJ]

Brother, why so nasty? Maybe you should look at yourself and you wouldn't be so nasty.

Nasty? Nasty, oh that is so Christian like! I disagree with you and, I am nasty...that is such a crude word! You won't answer my previous question of what does "face to face" mean...."Face to face" is whos face to whos face? You won't or can't answer that , so your best reply to this is ...I am being nasty...I thought this was an open forum for discussion, not pettiness! I am done with discussing this with you and @amadeus2 . You both can call me what ever you wish and, we will just have to agree to disagree or, if you wish to...disagree...that is your choice!

 

[rag4aCrown]

Nasty? Nasty, oh that is so Christian like! I disagree with you and, I am nasty...that is such a crude word! You won't answer my previous question of what does "face to face" mean...."Face to face" is whos face to whos face? You won't or can't answer that , so your best reply to this is ...I am being nasty...I thought this was an open forum for discussion, not pettiness! I am done with discussing this with you and @amadeus2 . You both can call me what ever you wish and, we will just have to agree to disagree or, if you wish to...disagree...that is your choice!

So brother you haven't been face to face with yourself in Him? You still looking through the glass darkly? But then shall I know even as also I am known.
It is God who knows us even better then we know ourselves. when the Potter begins His work on the clay, He shows us ourselves; and begins taking out the trash, but self has to submit to God and humble self.

Let me testify; once upon a time I found myself in a place where only myself and God exist. This entire world has forsaken me, family, my own son, so called friends and so called brothers and sisters. I had nothing but a roof over my head. For 7 months I walked and talked with God everyday; 8, 10, 12 he's a day I read the Word, pray and fast, seeking God fervently and diligently. Amazing... God is AMAZING, when self isn't divided between serving 2 world's, amazing the things God shows us about self.
With God, all things are possible.

Where is your faith, brother?
In self or in God?
Where is your confidence brother? In self or in God?

Christaians aren't perfect...
Christian simply means follower of Christ.
So you can't follow Him, perfectly?
Oh yeah, there is those scriptures that tell us what We must do; deny the flesh (self), forsake ALL, pick up our cross, and follow Him.
Who has left, lost, sold or simply walked away from everything they have known and loved in this temporal world?

Brother, God is my witness. He teaches us all things. And yes we are perfect in Him.

Brother, I hate this flesh. It is filthy and it disgust me, I WANT it off me and as close as I can get it off me right now is to deny it.
You don't have to believe someone who has been through it; for 7 months, God fed me, ministered to me, used the Word showing me self, cleansing and purging me, no flesh but mine and my God. I still say to you, WITH GOD, all things are possible.
All praise glory and honor be unto God. Amen

 

[RJ]

So brother you haven't been face to face with yourself in Him? You still looking through the glass darkly? But then shall I know even as also I am known.
It is God who knows us even better then we know ourselves. when the Potter begins His work on the clay, He shows us ourselves; and begins taking out the trash, but self has to submit to God and humble self.

Let me testify; once upon a time I found myself in a place where only myself and God exist. This entire world has forsaken me, family, my own son, so called friends and so called brothers and sisters. I had nothing but a roof over my head. For 7 months I walked and talked with God everyday; 8, 10, 12 he's a day I read the Word, pray and fast, seeking God fervently and diligently. Amazing... God is AMAZING, when self isn't divided between serving 2 world's, amazing the things God shows us about self.
With God, all things are possible.

Where is your faith, brother?
In self or in God?
Where is your confidence brother? In self or in God?

Christaians aren't perfect...
Christian simply means follower of Christ.
So you can't follow Him, perfectly?
Oh yeah, there is those scriptures that tell us what We must do; deny the flesh (self), forsake ALL, pick up our cross, and follow Him.
Who has left, lost, sold or simply walked away from everything they have known and loved in this temporal world?

Brother, God is my witness. He teaches us all things. And yes we are perfect in Him.

Brother, I hate this flesh. It is filthy and it disgust me, I WANT it off me and as close as I can get it off me right now is to deny it.
You don't have to believe someone who has been through it; for 7 months, God fed me, ministered to me, used the Word showing me self, cleansing and purging me, no flesh but mine and my God. I still say to you, WITH GOD, all things are possible.
All praise glory and honor be unto God. Amen

 

[amadeus2]

I have no "harsh feelings" that is your conception, not mine. Maybe you feel some form of chastisement , I don't know? All I have continued to contend, that to me, A Christian can not be perfect. That doesn't mean that God does not credit yo with Christ's perfection...in that since, it is Christ's perfection and not your own. Essentially you say you can achieve perfection...I say the only way "your" perfection would be of any importance, would be for you to personally do that 24/7..never failing...I say that you are not capable of that. Coupled with that and the "fact", that you refuse to acknowledge what the term "face to face" and "coming perfection" really means, we continue to disagree but, harsh feelings....not true! Those are words not mine!

Truly glad to hear that there are no such negative feelings in spite of our apparent differences. We must always recall the words penned by Solomon which still do apply today. The only way they are changed is when we have allowed God to change them in us:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

We must allow ourselves always to be directly by the Lord. He will lead us to the same Light even if we do not always agree on every point along the way.

Historically (my own history) I know that I have been wrong more than once since beginning to follow God through His Son, Jesus. I can recall more than one specific time when God nudged me gently or pushed me hard to get me better established on the highway of holiness. I was wrong those times but did not realize it until God opened my eyes to the problem [let me see myself better].

Likely there are still some such errors that are in need of correction in me. I believe that part of the solution to those problems, [presently unknown], in each of us will be found in opening ourselves completely to God so He can work within us.

We must love the Truth [Jesus], even that part of Truth that we do not recognize or understand:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11

 

[amadeus2]

The Bible does!!! I am sorry if this may offend you but, I really don't think you understand what "Face to Face" means. You best go back and read Exodus 33:18-23

And did Jesus not bring the eyesalve to make it possible for us that which was still impossible for the carnal man, Moses?

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18

Where do we get this eyesalve to see more clearly if not from the gift of the Holy Ghost made possible for you and me by the sacrifice of Jesus?

Moses, for all his humility, was still a carnal man, as we have been, but we have an advantage that Moses did not have yet.

 

[amadeus2]

I am done with discussing this with you and @amadeus2 . You both can call me what ever you wish and, we will just have to agree to disagree or, if you wish to...disagree...that is your choice!

Did I call you a bad name? If I did please forgive me. It was not my intention to get personal but to help you understand what I believe. You, I know, were trying to tell me what you believe. This is one way that God will help people to learn, but 'name calling' helps no one.

 

[Sam Canvas]

"...I'm made in HIS image & HE'S PERFECT!"

Has anyone else gotten any flack for wanting to turn your life over to God?

Hello "LordKnows".

There's no doubt, Joe Public gets fed a weird diet of misconceptions about what a Christian actually is. When they see a Christian 'label' some people get all kinds of ideas about who we are and how we should be. They're not usually at fault, in my opinion.

They often expect us to be squeaky clean dawn to dusk! But let's face it––all the perfected Christians have crossed over and left us behind. For us here it's a process, a daily challenge, an ongoing surrender towards spiritual maturity. Those people you mention can't get a handle on all that.

But we just get on with it. If we each give our whole heart to Him, we'll abide in Him and He will be apparent in us. We'll come to see the fruit of the Spirit growing in our conduct.