666 Chip
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mikemattice
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Antichrist revealed
I believe the revelation of the antichrist you refer to is not his rise to power, but the revelation of who he really is. I believe his 3 1/2 year reign will already existent, and the two witnesses will reveal to the world who he is, resulting in their very public execution.
I believe the revelation of the antichrist you refer to is not his rise to power, but the revelation of who he really is. I believe his 3 1/2 year reign will already existent, and the two witnesses will reveal to the world who he is, resulting in their very public execution.
Well Brother,
You're right, the Anti-Christ comes out when the lamb breaks the first seal, but here he comes out to conquer the whole world. He is not yet risen to power. After he conquers the whole world, (this is after the 7th trumpet) he will desecrate the Jerusalem temple and claim himself to be the Son of God. He will cause all people to wear his mark.
By the way, welcome to Talk Jesus, nice to have you here.
God bless you.
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Hi there! New here and was looking at some of these posts. Some very interesting.
There's a lot of confusion about Revelations, 2 Thessalonians and the words Jesus spoke about the end times as recorded in Luke, Matthew and Mark. One can see why; it is hard to understand prophesy which is why it needs to be read with the utmost care. There is literally hundreds of different viewpoints to all sorts of Revelations-related themes - ie. the Beast, the *****, 666, etc. etc. The problem with most, if not all of these viewpoints is that they are not inter-related, continuous, consistent or linear. In other words, some theories believe that the Beast is a single man. If this is true, then how does "the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Rev. 17:8) amongst many other verses fit in to this paradigm? Fact is, it doesn't. The problem with most theories is interpretation - man's interpretation.
This brings me to 666. The actual number "666" is only mentioned once in Revelations. It is mentioned as the "number of the beast" elsewhere. 666 has been looked over the centuries to mark a specific man, country or group of nations. This pre-villification is obviously not Christian, nor accurate. Neither is this number to be found in the outside world. It is right there in the text of I Kings 10:14.
Remember that Rev 13:18 starts with "Here is wisdom..." Who is the example of wisdom personified (excepting Jesus, of course)? Solomon. What did Solomon's 666 talents of gold gain him? All of the sins "under the sun." God warned that Israel not amass wealth and weapons because it was a trap that turned away faith. So, Solomon did just that, and with his God-given wisdom recieved wealth and with his wealth broke from the faith. Finally he returned to God.
People spend so much time looking for what is not said. They take one verse and rest their theories upon it. This is entirely irresponsible especially when looking at prophecy.
666, the number of the Beast, will NOT be revealed by looking at the secular world. The number will not be cracked by those who seek to villify others. The number is no secret. It is only hidden in plain sight.
There's a lot of confusion about Revelations, 2 Thessalonians and the words Jesus spoke about the end times as recorded in Luke, Matthew and Mark. One can see why; it is hard to understand prophesy which is why it needs to be read with the utmost care. There is literally hundreds of different viewpoints to all sorts of Revelations-related themes - ie. the Beast, the *****, 666, etc. etc. The problem with most, if not all of these viewpoints is that they are not inter-related, continuous, consistent or linear. In other words, some theories believe that the Beast is a single man. If this is true, then how does "the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Rev. 17:8) amongst many other verses fit in to this paradigm? Fact is, it doesn't. The problem with most theories is interpretation - man's interpretation.
This brings me to 666. The actual number "666" is only mentioned once in Revelations. It is mentioned as the "number of the beast" elsewhere. 666 has been looked over the centuries to mark a specific man, country or group of nations. This pre-villification is obviously not Christian, nor accurate. Neither is this number to be found in the outside world. It is right there in the text of I Kings 10:14.
Remember that Rev 13:18 starts with "Here is wisdom..." Who is the example of wisdom personified (excepting Jesus, of course)? Solomon. What did Solomon's 666 talents of gold gain him? All of the sins "under the sun." God warned that Israel not amass wealth and weapons because it was a trap that turned away faith. So, Solomon did just that, and with his God-given wisdom recieved wealth and with his wealth broke from the faith. Finally he returned to God.
People spend so much time looking for what is not said. They take one verse and rest their theories upon it. This is entirely irresponsible especially when looking at prophecy.
666, the number of the Beast, will NOT be revealed by looking at the secular world. The number will not be cracked by those who seek to villify others. The number is no secret. It is only hidden in plain sight.
mikemattice
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That is a fascinating perspective, connecting Solomon's wealth with the number of the beast. In all my years of study, I'd never heard that. Thank you for that insight.
Personally, I believe that many are deceived in the world and even within Christianity about that number. I've read and heard many suggestions that three sixes is the devil's number, and even that its the mark of the beast. I don't read either of those in Scripture. My studies of Scripture don't say what specifically the mark is. It's my opinion that it could refer to a microchip placed under the skin (which is already being done in USA. The military have been using this technology for several years for key personnel, and in recent years, it has been marketed as a security device. But that's my opinion.
With regards to the number of the beast's name, John wrote in Greek three numbers, and only one of them was a six. He wrote that the number of the beast's name was 600, 60, and 6. Its unfortunate that our modern english translates that to "666". Greek, like many other ancient languages, used letters for their numbering system. So, John was actually writing letters (I haven't figured out how to get my computer to allow me to type the Greek text) and it is the name of a man. The Bible was written in three original languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. If you write the numbers 600, 60, and six in each of these languages, you are writing that man's name in all three. That name is Nero Caesar. Nero matches every description of the beast in the Old and New Testaments. And he was truly the most anti-Christian that ever lived. He had his mother executed because she had become a follower of the Way. He used to have Christians tied to stakes and set afire to burn alive, to provide lighting in the arena. It drove him even further into insanity that, as the Christians were burned alive, they sang praises to God. He was killed by a sword wound to the head. These are just little inklings of the man's wickedness. John wrote Revelations after the death of Nero, so he was, but was not at the time of the writing. However, in some way (again, this would be open to interpretation and the teaching of God The Holy Spirit) John saw this beast as Nero Caesar.
Now, I believe that all these things will probably happen in my lifetime (my opinion). I am prepared to stand in as public a forum as possible then, and proclaim that this man is the beast, the antichrist, his name is Nero Caesar (I don't think he will call himself that), and the number of his name is six hundred, sixty, and six. There are two possibilities for the result of my declaration:
1. I will be executed. I'm okay with that. Hopefully, someone will be encouraged to stand up for the truth as the result of my martyrdom.
2. They may not be able to kill me. The ancient Hebrews spelled God's name, Yaweh, in such a way that they could not pronounce it. This was because of the ancient belief that, if you had (said) the name of someone, you had power over them. There is power in a name. Revelations 13:17 says:
"and that no one may buy or sell (work, eat, all that good stuff) EXCEPT one who has the mark (they will prosper at this time) OR the name of the beast OR the number of his name."
[emphasis and parenthetical mine]
So, people who are looking for the trinity of sixes as some way of identifying the beast are literally chasing after numerology and are being deceived. There are plenty of examples in our world today where people find three sixes and interpret it as being "of the devil". For example, every UPC barcode has three sixes.
Isn't it possible that the devil would utilize this preoccupation people have with "666" in the world (which is his domain)? Wouldn't Satan be delighted if he ushered in his final attempt to take the world while multitudes of believers don't even recognize it, because they 1) don't believe the church will be here for it and 2) It has nothing to do with "666"?
Selah (think about it)
Peace to you.
Well, Mike, It couldn't of been Nero. Let me give you some key verses on why he wasn't.
1# he didn't use any mark to stop trading, buying or selling.
Revealtion 13:16 <SUP id=en-KJV-30925>16</SUP>And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
2# He killed himself. Revelation says Jesus would kill him
Revealtion 19:19-21 <SUP>19</SUP>And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
<SUP id=en-KJV-31038>20</SUP>And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. <SUP id=en-KJV-31039>21</SUP>And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
3# He died before 70Ad. Anti-christ dies at the end of the tribulation. not 2/3rds of the way in. For verse, See 2#
1# he didn't use any mark to stop trading, buying or selling.
Revealtion 13:16 <SUP id=en-KJV-30925>16</SUP>And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
2# He killed himself. Revelation says Jesus would kill him
Revealtion 19:19-21 <SUP>19</SUP>And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
<SUP id=en-KJV-31038>20</SUP>And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. <SUP id=en-KJV-31039>21</SUP>And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
3# He died before 70Ad. Anti-christ dies at the end of the tribulation. not 2/3rds of the way in. For verse, See 2#
mikemattice
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You are absolutely right, that Nero Caesar did not do those things in his lifetime. Those events are yet in our future. John said that the beast he saw in the revelation of the end times was (he had lived before), was not (he was not alive at the time John was writing this), but will be again. And all the world will marvel that he was raised from the dead (many will likely believe he is Jesus because of this).
So, there's a few possibilities as I see it:
1) This man could literally be Nero Caesar brought back from the dead. God could permit the devil to do this, in order that His word come to pass. Honestly, I tend toward:
2) The same spirit of antichrist that possessed Nero will live in this man. Perhaps when John saw the vision of this man, he recognized the spirit which he'd seen in Nero, and that's why John called the beast Nero Caesar. I'm not sure.
I do know that I am prepared to stand against this man when the time comes. I have no reason to fear him or his world system, and I will not submit, even if I have to die. I definitely will not run and hide from him. And as I said, I will speak as publicly as possible what I believe to be true. Whatever the outcome, even if I'm completely wrong about it, even if it costs me my life.
I don't think he will die. I think he will be mortally wounded because Satan can't bring the dead back too life. If he could, He would of done it by now. Now,
I believe in the Pre-tribulation Rapture theory because it is the only one that is supported by the bible.(just my personal belief anyway.)
mikemattice
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My dear brother,
"mortally wounded" means killed, dead. Satan could not do it without God's permission, and I was suggesting that it could happen that way if God says it will.
Secondly and more importantly, Joebob, is the issue of whether the church are "the saints" that the beast is given power to make war with for his 3 1/2 year reign. While I hope those who believe in pre-tribulation rapture are right, what if they're not? Won't the multitude of believers who have been taught they would not have to go through the purifying tribulation be devastated, maybe even be a "great falling away" as Jesus said would happen in the midst of greater tribulation than ever before (in Matthew 24), and that He will not return until these things occur?
Again, I say, I hope for rapture before the purifying tribulation of the saints, but I cannot find a convincing Scriptural basis for it. But if its true, praise God! And if the church are the saints that will be purified into the spotless bride by tribulation, then praise God! I would rather be prepared to go through it (that kind of sold-out commitment has to have already happened. It won't materialize suddenly in the heat of the moment, when faced with the choice of submitting to the beast or dying), than to believe I won't have to suffer the tribulation of the saints and then find out I do.
Historically, God has many times permitted persecution of His people (Israel and the Church), to divide the wheat (real value truly committed believers) from the chaff (those who say they believe, but when it comes down to it, they love this world and their own life more).
I thank God for you and this wonderful dialogue.
Peace to you
Best evidence for a Pre-tribulation rapture: Revelation 4and 5. The 24 elders are the 24 Representatives of the Church. How do we know this? Because Of the 3 times the Throne of God is talked about, Only once are the elders ever mentioned. And that is in Revelation. which means they were add and That they are Christians. Which means a Pre-trib Rapture because Chapter 6 is the seals and Chapters 4 and 5 are before seal 1.
Also, Mid-trib, Post-trib, Pre-wrath, and Partail trib all have problems with them. Mid-trib and Post-trib all give us an exact date for the rapture. Pre-wrath would mean that the blessed hope Jesus promised us would be a Blasted hope, Not a Blessed hope. We have to sit through war, Meteors, Fire, Demonic armies and Locusts and We can pass that off as Blessed Hope? That seems kinda wrong. And Partial Trib is based on Good works.
Also, Mid-trib, Post-trib, Pre-wrath, and Partail trib all have problems with them. Mid-trib and Post-trib all give us an exact date for the rapture. Pre-wrath would mean that the blessed hope Jesus promised us would be a Blasted hope, Not a Blessed hope. We have to sit through war, Meteors, Fire, Demonic armies and Locusts and We can pass that off as Blessed Hope? That seems kinda wrong. And Partial Trib is based on Good works.
Thank you for your response. Read Rev. 20:4-6. This explains that those who have overcome the beast have part in the 1000 year reign of Christ. As you can see from verse 4 and 5, these are not only souls that are alive at His coming, but that have died over the eons in Christ. You must note that these people are either A) martyrs for Jesus and/or B) overcame the beast. According to v. 6, these are the ONLY ones to take part in the 1000 year reign. According to v. 12, the rest of the dead are raised AFTER the 1000 year reign and are judged according to their works - these would be those who A) died and went to hell (v. 14) and B) died before the Christ (v. 15) but are written in the book of life (like Abraham or Moses).
Now, keeping this in mind, you must either be part of the 1000 year reign of Christ (dying in Christ and THEREBY overcoming the beast) OR be a part of the book of life (lived before Jesus but believed in the salvation of the Messiah and lived according to the Law.) What are you seeing here?
I want to take a minute here to explain something about the beast that a lot of people have a hard time with. The beast is not one man. I know, I know, "it's a number of a man, though!" Read the original text. "Man" in this verse (13:18) is "anthropos" which is a derivative of anthropology and means "mankind" or human being. Contrast this with "arrhen" or "arsen" which means "male" - a clarification of a distinct, individual man. Why would John not write arrhen over anthropos if he were talking about a distinct individual?
Also, let's look closer at the beast and see how it is possible that it is an individual: 13:2 "like unto a leopard and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as a mouth of a lion.." Contrast this with Daniel 7 and you see the same imagery, which is known to be Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. How is one man capable of encompassing these awesome world powers of the past? 13:3 "...one of his heads as it were wounded to death and his deadly wound was healed..." How can a man be wounded to death and then live, excepting in the case of miracles of God? Further, how is "one of his heads" consistent with one man? 13:7 "...and power was given him over all kindreds and tongues and nations..." If a man is given power over ALL of these, he must've lived through ALL time. Sound impossible yet? Don't believe "all means "all"? Ok, read on... 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him WHOSE NAMES ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD." (emphasis added) Why would John say something like this if he didn't mean it? "ALL... SHALL..." -- This is a verse with magnitude. This is absolutely saying that those who DO NOT worship Jesus DO worship the beast. Moving on, to ch. 17:8, the angel says "The beast that thou sawest was and is not...and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." 17:9-17 goes on to explain about the seven heads and ten horns which are upon the beast that they are kings. How is one man 17 kings? Is there any doubt anymore that the beast is NOT a man? The beast is a multi-faceted creature, as the imagery conjures and the prophecy states. To say that the beast is one man is a bold-faced lie. There is no evidence to support this claim. Iron sharpens iron as much as Scripture sharpens Scripture - if Scripture is not supporting Scripture then the INTERPRETATION of Scripture MUST be false.
I have heard the Nero theory. It is obviously not plausible. Rome, however, is a part of the beast. It is one of the seven heads. Rev. 17:10 - "...five are fallen, one is and the other is not yet come..." There is little room for doubt when looking at the imagery and consistency of the beast format.
Finally, as far as the 666 literal number, one must remember that this is the "number of his name"... not the beast itself. Remember, the beast is a multi-faceted creature... it is fallen powers, it is current powers, it has a number and a mark and an image. I believe, as I've said before, that the number is written as an arrow pointing back to Solomon. Is it pure coincidence that "Here is wisdom" would introduce the sentence introducing the number of the beast? Is it pure coincidence that Solomon is most known for his wisdom and gold... 666 talents of it? Is it worth mentioning that Paul stated "For the love of money IS the root of all evil..." (I Tim. 6:10 - emphasis added) - that is a very powerful sentence... Could you believe that overcoming the "number of his name", if that truly meant the love of money, could really mean "overcoming the love of money"? After all, doesn't every country - past or present - mint its own currency? Didn't Christ - after asking "whose image is this?" - say "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"?
Sorry, I do go on and on... Again, thank you for your response and I encourage you to read Revelations symbollically... remember that this is a SPIRITUAL PROPHECY. Literal interpretations aren't consistent within symbolic text. In other words, when John is describing the beast we see one ugly, weird look-ing thing rising out of the sea. We know that this won't literally happen. Yet, for some reason, we automatically go to literal interpretations of things like receiving a mark in the forehead or a wound to the head. Revelations is highly symbolic and spiritual. Old symbols have been reused and symbolic clues have been given to support new prophecy. Also, this book MUST be read with a spiritual mindset that knows, appreciates and recalls all other Scripture. This CANNOT be read alone and hoped to be understood. God bless you in your search for truth - and always seek Him first!
Now, keeping this in mind, you must either be part of the 1000 year reign of Christ (dying in Christ and THEREBY overcoming the beast) OR be a part of the book of life (lived before Jesus but believed in the salvation of the Messiah and lived according to the Law.) What are you seeing here?
I want to take a minute here to explain something about the beast that a lot of people have a hard time with. The beast is not one man. I know, I know, "it's a number of a man, though!" Read the original text. "Man" in this verse (13:18) is "anthropos" which is a derivative of anthropology and means "mankind" or human being. Contrast this with "arrhen" or "arsen" which means "male" - a clarification of a distinct, individual man. Why would John not write arrhen over anthropos if he were talking about a distinct individual?
Also, let's look closer at the beast and see how it is possible that it is an individual: 13:2 "like unto a leopard and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as a mouth of a lion.." Contrast this with Daniel 7 and you see the same imagery, which is known to be Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. How is one man capable of encompassing these awesome world powers of the past? 13:3 "...one of his heads as it were wounded to death and his deadly wound was healed..." How can a man be wounded to death and then live, excepting in the case of miracles of God? Further, how is "one of his heads" consistent with one man? 13:7 "...and power was given him over all kindreds and tongues and nations..." If a man is given power over ALL of these, he must've lived through ALL time. Sound impossible yet? Don't believe "all means "all"? Ok, read on... 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him WHOSE NAMES ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD." (emphasis added) Why would John say something like this if he didn't mean it? "ALL... SHALL..." -- This is a verse with magnitude. This is absolutely saying that those who DO NOT worship Jesus DO worship the beast. Moving on, to ch. 17:8, the angel says "The beast that thou sawest was and is not...and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." 17:9-17 goes on to explain about the seven heads and ten horns which are upon the beast that they are kings. How is one man 17 kings? Is there any doubt anymore that the beast is NOT a man? The beast is a multi-faceted creature, as the imagery conjures and the prophecy states. To say that the beast is one man is a bold-faced lie. There is no evidence to support this claim. Iron sharpens iron as much as Scripture sharpens Scripture - if Scripture is not supporting Scripture then the INTERPRETATION of Scripture MUST be false.
I have heard the Nero theory. It is obviously not plausible. Rome, however, is a part of the beast. It is one of the seven heads. Rev. 17:10 - "...five are fallen, one is and the other is not yet come..." There is little room for doubt when looking at the imagery and consistency of the beast format.
Finally, as far as the 666 literal number, one must remember that this is the "number of his name"... not the beast itself. Remember, the beast is a multi-faceted creature... it is fallen powers, it is current powers, it has a number and a mark and an image. I believe, as I've said before, that the number is written as an arrow pointing back to Solomon. Is it pure coincidence that "Here is wisdom" would introduce the sentence introducing the number of the beast? Is it pure coincidence that Solomon is most known for his wisdom and gold... 666 talents of it? Is it worth mentioning that Paul stated "For the love of money IS the root of all evil..." (I Tim. 6:10 - emphasis added) - that is a very powerful sentence... Could you believe that overcoming the "number of his name", if that truly meant the love of money, could really mean "overcoming the love of money"? After all, doesn't every country - past or present - mint its own currency? Didn't Christ - after asking "whose image is this?" - say "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"?
Sorry, I do go on and on... Again, thank you for your response and I encourage you to read Revelations symbollically... remember that this is a SPIRITUAL PROPHECY. Literal interpretations aren't consistent within symbolic text. In other words, when John is describing the beast we see one ugly, weird look-ing thing rising out of the sea. We know that this won't literally happen. Yet, for some reason, we automatically go to literal interpretations of things like receiving a mark in the forehead or a wound to the head. Revelations is highly symbolic and spiritual. Old symbols have been reused and symbolic clues have been given to support new prophecy. Also, this book MUST be read with a spiritual mindset that knows, appreciates and recalls all other Scripture. This CANNOT be read alone and hoped to be understood. God bless you in your search for truth - and always seek Him first!
Yet, Revelation seemingly goes right along with Daniel perfectly and Daniel had a very literal passage. The 70 weeks anyone? 69/70 of the weeks have been fulfilled and they have all been LITERALLY fulfilled. So why cant the 70th week be Literally fulfilled?
Joebob787, I'm not sure you understand me when I say, "symbolic". Symbolism was used extensively in Daniel as well as Revelations. The lion in Daniel was Babylon. That's symbolic: using a creature to represent a country is symbolism. If it was literal, then Babylon would truly be a big cat roaming around roaring and snarling. This was my point: Revelations is SYMBOLIC, not LITERAL.
The head of the beast that is wounded to death by a sword is most likely a powerful country that is destroyed by war. SYMBOLISM. The mark of the beast in the hand and the head is the example of thought and action in conjunction with the beast. SYMBOLISM. Notice that those who are saved have a seal in their foreheads and palms in their hands showing peace and the love of God. SYMBOLISM. The angel goes on to say that the 7 heads are 7 kings. SYMBOLISM.
In fact, nearly all prophecy regarding Jesus is symbolic. Very little is literal, such as the fact that He'd be born in Bathlehem. Jesus, too, spoke many parables to illustrate points. Symbolism.
I could go on and on. The entire book (except the first three chapters) are symbolic. As you see from the first verse in chapter 4, the door is opened in heaven for John to "come and see" what was to happen.
Thank you for your response!
The head of the beast that is wounded to death by a sword is most likely a powerful country that is destroyed by war. SYMBOLISM. The mark of the beast in the hand and the head is the example of thought and action in conjunction with the beast. SYMBOLISM. Notice that those who are saved have a seal in their foreheads and palms in their hands showing peace and the love of God. SYMBOLISM. The angel goes on to say that the 7 heads are 7 kings. SYMBOLISM.
In fact, nearly all prophecy regarding Jesus is symbolic. Very little is literal, such as the fact that He'd be born in Bathlehem. Jesus, too, spoke many parables to illustrate points. Symbolism.
I could go on and on. The entire book (except the first three chapters) are symbolic. As you see from the first verse in chapter 4, the door is opened in heaven for John to "come and see" what was to happen.
Thank you for your response!
mikemattice
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Saul,
Again, I say that's a fascinating perspective about Solomon. I agree with you that the Book of Revelation cannot be understood unless reading the entire Bible. The Bible interprets itself, and if one reads only select texts, they are trying to see the entire world through a pinhole. For example, Gen. 3:15 is the first prophecy about Jesus being born of a virgin; yet many don't even recognize that.
I do have a question... since Revelation was written to instruct a specific generation in a specific time in future history, what does your understanding suggest that generation do?
And I'm not sure I understand why, in your opinion, John would have called that endtimes system "Nero Caesar" specifically?
About Daniel's vision compared with John's description of the beast, I think everyone reading these texts knows these are symbolic representations of real events and people as revealed by God (because He wants His people to recognize what will be happening at the time). Many of the symbols have been examined by biblical scholars and kooks over the centuries, each having their interpretations. This is the danger of overspiritualizing Scripture that has very practical purpose. It opens the door to individual interpretation. That is contrary to the nature of TRUTH. Truth is not "open to individual interpretation".
Now, because these symbols represent events and people in the future, there are certain things that we cannot say for certain "this is the way it will be". But we can be certain that God's Word will come to pass. This world will come to an end. But before it does, humanity will develop a global governmental/economic system that is godless. But, to try to seduce those who are religious-minded, it will align with a one-world religion, and try to convince the world that the leader of this system is God among us. This world system will seem to bring utopia, to recapture Eden (paradise on earth). But this earth, while it is good in many ways, is not intended to be paradise, and its God who forbade re-entrance into Eden. We know for certain that this system will "be given power to make war with the saints" for 3 1/2 years. We can say for certain that this system will kill many who do not submit. Today, anyone who takes a stand for the Christian faith is considered at best a radical; but even often an enemy of human rights and are societal outcasts. Jesus said it would be that way, and worse, for believers at the end of the age. As it gets tougher and increasingly more dangerous to be a real Christian, those who are not seriously sold-out for Jesus, loving Him more than their own lives and this world, will falter and just simply walk away. If the world offers religion that doesn't challenge us to be holy and serve Jesus even unto our death and allows us to flourish and love the things of this world (and the world already has such a religion), those who are Christians but not "radical about it" will slide on over to the Church of the Comfortable, Convenient, and Casual. But I guess I'm preaching.
At any rate, we also can say with certainty that, at an appointed time that only our Heavenly Father really knows, Jesus will return. Every eye on earth will see Him coming in the clouds. Some will rejoice as the dead in Christ are raised to Him, and then those who are alive in Him at that time will be taken up into the heavens with Jesus. Others (actually, most of the world) will be terrified. Then God will pour out His wrath on the wicked world for 3 1/2 years. After at least 1,00 years of events here on Earth following the outpouring of wrath, God will judge all who have ever lived on the earth, starting with His own. The judgment of the righteous will be to determine our rewards, based on what we did with our faith. And the judgment of the unrighteous will be based on their response to Jesus salvation was offered to them (which, by the way, we are accountable for what we did about the opportunities God gave us to share Jesus).
And we can say with certainty that this world will pass away, and God will judge the prince of this world (Satan) and his faithful servants. And God will then reveal the new heaven He's been preparing for that specific time.
So, you see, Christians should not read Revelations with fear, nor superspiritualization. We should understand, with study and God the Holy Ghost's instruction, what God intends to do to purify His church. In the early church days, if you lied to the Holy Spirit, you dropped over dead. That was to keep the church pure. God allowed the Roman empire to persecute the church, killing multitudes of followers of the Way, and causing the faithful to scatter. That was the method of reaching out to the lost world of that time: God kicked the church out of their comfort zone (I'm convinced that's the most destructive place Christians can be), and they took their faith with them. Many reading this forum post would not be Christians, if not for that time of Roman persecution causing the church to scatter. When the nation of Israel was torn apart and for many centuries, there was no country of Israel, God always keeps a remnant of His people in the world. Then, in 1948, the prophesied return and re-establishing of the country of Israel. Then in 196- (oh my gosh, it just slipped my memory if it was '68 or '69!), the Jews took back Jerusalem and switched the capitol from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. This too was the fulfillment of prophesy, and in fact is designated in Scripture as a crux in history ("the end of the times of the Gentiles"). The next biblical age defined is "the end times". Many say that it began immediately at the end of the times of the Gentiles. I believe that's true. If that's the case, we are currently living in what the Bible calls "the end times" (notice its not "end time"). And if we are, then we are the generation and this is the time that the Book of Revelation was written for. The scroll is now open, and we are to read it with understanding. Come, let us reason together.
Wow, I can't seem to write a short post on this subject. Because every statement I make about what I believe requires explaining why I believe it. I did not come to these beliefs by any pastor, preacher, or teacher. Years of prayerful study. I've read several books with various interpretations, history, and I have researched the original languages of the Bible. But this belief I have is not solely based on any intellectual research and study. When God the Holy Spirit teaches me something, illuminating Scripture, I test it. Is it consistent with all Scripture (and yes, I've read the Bible several times over)? And, is it consistent with God's character and purpose? I test, because I know that I'm just as capable of being deceived as anyone else, and because I know that God will prove Himself and His Word faithful. God is not who I think or believe He is. He is who He is. And I know Him personally.
Would God allow His church to suffer tribulation to separate the marginal lukewarms from the 100% believers? Absolutely. He's done it before, and its conceivable He will do it again, to prepare His spotless bride.
Would God give permission to the devil to do signs and wonders (including raising someone from the dead) to deceive the world and test the the saints' devotion to TRUTH? Of course He would. He's done it before. God doesn't change.
I could go on and on (and already have). Most will probably see the length of this post and just bypass it. That's okay. It helps me to clearly lay it out there. I am thankful for this site and the opportunity for forums such as this. Never before in history has the entire world been so accessible for the purpose of the gospel! Its an exciting time we live in! We have been born and born again for such a time as this!
Mike, I'm so glad that you took the time to write all of this! Now I don't feel like I'm the only one that has to clarify every point; I see that you do it too! This is great, because it is always good to know WHY you believe the way you do.
So, let me start by saying that I'm not trying to change anyone's mind; I'm trying to explain the Scriptures that are in front of us by backing them up with other Scripture. The entire theme of the Bible is not about God vs. Satan or good vs. evil. It is about man's relationship to God and how it ought to be. This has remained the case from Moses first five books to David's works to the prophets to the gospels to the epistles. The Bible exhorts, edifies and reproves. It uses history, prophecy, poetry, proverb, parable and epistle to expound on God, His character and man's attitude toward Him. Please keep this in mind as you read.
You asked me "since Revelation was written to instruct a specific generation in a specific time in future history, what does your understanding suggest that generation do?
For starters, there's no evidence that Revelations was written for a specific generation in a specific time in "fuure history." Chapter 1-3 are written to the 7 churches - Laodecia, Smryna, etc. These were alive and well at the time. Why would John then go on for 19 more chapters of a bunch of stuff that had no application to them? Senseless. Now, of a surety there are still SOME parts of Revelations that have not yet happened - even today. But there are also many parts of Revelations that have already happened and/or are still current (namely, the beast.) Fact is, there is much of Revelations that was pertinent to the churches at that time and would continue to be pertinent until the "day of the Lord."
What do I suggest that generation do? I suggest that they understand that the "son of perdition" will continue to wax stronger and "wear down the saints" but to "overcome" as was the constant warning to ALL 7 churches because Jesus would finally return with power and glory.
"I'm not sure I understand why, in your opinion, John would have called that endtimes system "Nero Caesar" specifically". Actually, I didn't say that. I didn't call it Nero, nor a system. First, let's clarify that "endtimes" to me means as soon as Christ ascended. Second, I deny that Nero is the beast. I do not deny that in some way he is part of the beast. Having said that, I mean only that he was an antiChrist (for definition of antiChrist read 1 Jn. 2:22) AND he was a Roman dictator and the Roman Empire is one of the heads of the beast. Third, I deny that the beast is a system. Let's look at the verses that explain the beast... I've already posted those in the last post... There is no way a SYSTEM can live throughout millenia, throughout kingdoms and throughout cultures. As I've stated before, the beast is a multi-faceted being. Heads are kings. Horns are kings. The body is a conglomerate of ancient empires. Are those kingdoms connected? No. EXCEPT IN ONE WAY - the spirit of antiChrist. All deny God and Jesus. All will/have persecuted Christianity.
"About Daniel's vision compared with John's description of the beast, I think everyone reading these texts knows these are symbolic representations of real events and people as revealed by God (because He wants His people to recognize what will be happening at the time). Many of the symbols have been examined by biblical scholars and kooks over the centuries, each having their interpretations. This is the danger of overspiritualizing Scripture that has very practical purpose. It opens the door to individual interpretation. That is contrary to the nature of TRUTH. Truth is not "open to individual interpretation"."
First, I totally agree that individual interpretation is not truth. My insights are Biblically-based; nothing more. I disagree with many mainstream lines of thought on the subject of Revelations because the mainstream does not adequately identify Scripture in their thought-processes. In other words, if the beast is an individual, show me how all of the above-posted Scripture identify the beast as a man. It's impossible to do so. Therefore, the idea must be rejected. If Scripture seemingly contradicts Scripture, it is not Scripture that is at fault; it is man's interpretation. So, I make the case: how is the beast a man? How is the beast a system? Not conjecture; Scripture!
"This world will come to an end. But before it does, humanity will develop a global governmental/economic system that is godless." The world will come to and end - that is written in Scripture. Don't know about that last part. The only thing that MAY allude to that is the ten horns being of one mind (17:13). Other than this, there's no evidence of a "one-world government" before Christ's 1000 year reign. Again, where's the Scripture to support this?
"This world system will seem to bring utopia, to recapture Eden (paradise on earth). But this earth, while it is good in many ways, is not intended to be paradise, and its God who forbade re-entrance into Eden." Where is this in Scripture? Jesus said in Mt. 21:26 "Men's hearts failing them for fear and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth for the powers of earth shall be shaken. 27) AND THEN THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY." Hardly sounds liek a utopia before his coming. 1 Thessolonians 5:3 says "For when they shall say, Peace and safety (sound familiar?) then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." Doesn't sound like paradise to me.
"We know for certain that this system will "be given power to make war with the saints" for 3 1/2 years. " i could take way too long on the 3 and half year thing, but the fact is, the 42 months cannot be literal; why? For starters, everything else surrounding "42 months" is symbolic. For seconds, the beast has just been described as a multi-faceted, millenia-living creature; how can it reign only 42 months suddenly? And don't we see in Rev. 17:12 that the ten horns have only "one hour" as kings with the beast - and yet the ten horns are part of the beast? Makes no sense to me if we're still talking literally. But then, why is it that we keep shifting from symbolic to literal and back again? I have much more to say on this subject, but will desist.
"God allowed the Roman empire to persecute the church, killing multitudes of followers of the Way, and causing the faithful to scatter. That was the method of reaching out to the lost world of that time: God kicked the church out of their comfort zone (I'm convinced that's the most destructive place Christians can be), and they took their faith with them. Many reading this forum post would not be Christians, if not for that time of Roman persecution causing the church to scatter." - I 100% concur.
I agree with your conservative stance on Christianity and the need to get "out of our comfort zones." I think that you are very mindful of your duty to God. As I've stated before, I don't seek to change minds - I seek to challenge perspective of prophecy (not doctrine, of which I have no argument) if it's not Scripturally sound. I invite you to show me in Scripture what you believe prophetically.
Thanks again for your response and God bless you!
So, let me start by saying that I'm not trying to change anyone's mind; I'm trying to explain the Scriptures that are in front of us by backing them up with other Scripture. The entire theme of the Bible is not about God vs. Satan or good vs. evil. It is about man's relationship to God and how it ought to be. This has remained the case from Moses first five books to David's works to the prophets to the gospels to the epistles. The Bible exhorts, edifies and reproves. It uses history, prophecy, poetry, proverb, parable and epistle to expound on God, His character and man's attitude toward Him. Please keep this in mind as you read.
You asked me "since Revelation was written to instruct a specific generation in a specific time in future history, what does your understanding suggest that generation do?
For starters, there's no evidence that Revelations was written for a specific generation in a specific time in "fuure history." Chapter 1-3 are written to the 7 churches - Laodecia, Smryna, etc. These were alive and well at the time. Why would John then go on for 19 more chapters of a bunch of stuff that had no application to them? Senseless. Now, of a surety there are still SOME parts of Revelations that have not yet happened - even today. But there are also many parts of Revelations that have already happened and/or are still current (namely, the beast.) Fact is, there is much of Revelations that was pertinent to the churches at that time and would continue to be pertinent until the "day of the Lord."
What do I suggest that generation do? I suggest that they understand that the "son of perdition" will continue to wax stronger and "wear down the saints" but to "overcome" as was the constant warning to ALL 7 churches because Jesus would finally return with power and glory.
"I'm not sure I understand why, in your opinion, John would have called that endtimes system "Nero Caesar" specifically". Actually, I didn't say that. I didn't call it Nero, nor a system. First, let's clarify that "endtimes" to me means as soon as Christ ascended. Second, I deny that Nero is the beast. I do not deny that in some way he is part of the beast. Having said that, I mean only that he was an antiChrist (for definition of antiChrist read 1 Jn. 2:22) AND he was a Roman dictator and the Roman Empire is one of the heads of the beast. Third, I deny that the beast is a system. Let's look at the verses that explain the beast... I've already posted those in the last post... There is no way a SYSTEM can live throughout millenia, throughout kingdoms and throughout cultures. As I've stated before, the beast is a multi-faceted being. Heads are kings. Horns are kings. The body is a conglomerate of ancient empires. Are those kingdoms connected? No. EXCEPT IN ONE WAY - the spirit of antiChrist. All deny God and Jesus. All will/have persecuted Christianity.
"About Daniel's vision compared with John's description of the beast, I think everyone reading these texts knows these are symbolic representations of real events and people as revealed by God (because He wants His people to recognize what will be happening at the time). Many of the symbols have been examined by biblical scholars and kooks over the centuries, each having their interpretations. This is the danger of overspiritualizing Scripture that has very practical purpose. It opens the door to individual interpretation. That is contrary to the nature of TRUTH. Truth is not "open to individual interpretation"."
First, I totally agree that individual interpretation is not truth. My insights are Biblically-based; nothing more. I disagree with many mainstream lines of thought on the subject of Revelations because the mainstream does not adequately identify Scripture in their thought-processes. In other words, if the beast is an individual, show me how all of the above-posted Scripture identify the beast as a man. It's impossible to do so. Therefore, the idea must be rejected. If Scripture seemingly contradicts Scripture, it is not Scripture that is at fault; it is man's interpretation. So, I make the case: how is the beast a man? How is the beast a system? Not conjecture; Scripture!
"This world will come to an end. But before it does, humanity will develop a global governmental/economic system that is godless." The world will come to and end - that is written in Scripture. Don't know about that last part. The only thing that MAY allude to that is the ten horns being of one mind (17:13). Other than this, there's no evidence of a "one-world government" before Christ's 1000 year reign. Again, where's the Scripture to support this?
"This world system will seem to bring utopia, to recapture Eden (paradise on earth). But this earth, while it is good in many ways, is not intended to be paradise, and its God who forbade re-entrance into Eden." Where is this in Scripture? Jesus said in Mt. 21:26 "Men's hearts failing them for fear and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth for the powers of earth shall be shaken. 27) AND THEN THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY." Hardly sounds liek a utopia before his coming. 1 Thessolonians 5:3 says "For when they shall say, Peace and safety (sound familiar?) then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." Doesn't sound like paradise to me.
"We know for certain that this system will "be given power to make war with the saints" for 3 1/2 years. " i could take way too long on the 3 and half year thing, but the fact is, the 42 months cannot be literal; why? For starters, everything else surrounding "42 months" is symbolic. For seconds, the beast has just been described as a multi-faceted, millenia-living creature; how can it reign only 42 months suddenly? And don't we see in Rev. 17:12 that the ten horns have only "one hour" as kings with the beast - and yet the ten horns are part of the beast? Makes no sense to me if we're still talking literally. But then, why is it that we keep shifting from symbolic to literal and back again? I have much more to say on this subject, but will desist.
"God allowed the Roman empire to persecute the church, killing multitudes of followers of the Way, and causing the faithful to scatter. That was the method of reaching out to the lost world of that time: God kicked the church out of their comfort zone (I'm convinced that's the most destructive place Christians can be), and they took their faith with them. Many reading this forum post would not be Christians, if not for that time of Roman persecution causing the church to scatter." - I 100% concur.
I agree with your conservative stance on Christianity and the need to get "out of our comfort zones." I think that you are very mindful of your duty to God. As I've stated before, I don't seek to change minds - I seek to challenge perspective of prophecy (not doctrine, of which I have no argument) if it's not Scripturally sound. I invite you to show me in Scripture what you believe prophetically.
Thanks again for your response and God bless you!
Stay my tongue...
Hi there all, I am going to bring two points of view to two different sub-topics that have risen here.
First - the Chip...
Hi there all, I am going to bring two points of view to two different sub-topics that have risen here.
First - the Chip...
If it werent for the Bible's warning on this, I'd have jumped on it for me and for my wife and children the moment it becomes available.
Imagine logging on to a GlobalTrack website, logging in and being able to see exactly where your precious children are on the planet, owing to the (probable) ability of the chip to act as a GPS.
However, that kinda rules out the need for faith in God's protection over them, doesnt it...
Also... without God's influence on your financials you cant buy or sell RIGHT NOW.
So, as with everything the Imitator does, he replaces God's authentic hand with some demented imitation that people can't wait to own :shade:.
The RC "Church" and the Pope - Imagine logging on to a GlobalTrack website, logging in and being able to see exactly where your precious children are on the planet, owing to the (probable) ability of the chip to act as a GPS.
However, that kinda rules out the need for faith in God's protection over them, doesnt it...
Also... without God's influence on your financials you cant buy or sell RIGHT NOW.
So, as with everything the Imitator does, he replaces God's authentic hand with some demented imitation that people can't wait to own :shade:.
Perhaps it's better that I stay my tongue, eh? :secret:
mikemattice
Member
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2007
- Messages
- 50
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So, come on... what do you think? Is the Roman Catholic Church (the organization, not the parishioners) the harlot who sits on seven hills? (by the way, look at a topographical map of Rome, Italy) Do you think a Pope will be the false prophet in Rev.? I don't. Not charismatic/universal enough to seduce all the world. But of course, that's my opinion.
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Everything, or most things we do everyday is printed ie food, electric, gas etc. Even our dogs can be chipped (though i haven't had mine done).
I agree chip has definiately something to do with security and keeping children safe.
We know our Lord will keep our families safe, but others don't, who don't know Jesus.
Jesus said: Not even a sparrow, worth half a penny, can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid. Matthew10: 20-31
Keep the faith
Jas
I agree chip has definiately something to do with security and keeping children safe.
We know our Lord will keep our families safe, but others don't, who don't know Jesus.
Jesus said: Not even a sparrow, worth half a penny, can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid. Matthew10: 20-31
Keep the faith
Jas
