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666 Chip

They died before the crucifixion of Jesus, but they did not die before He lived or before He acted on earth, and both had personal experience with Him.

Keeping John 1:1 in mind look at Genesis 15:1.

I'm sorry- I'm not finding the similar reference for Moses.

My understanding is that many places where we havd "LORD" was originally the Word of the LORD.

I am trying to learn where all that has happened in the OT.

It certainly makes sense in the Genesis though, since no-one can see God yet God appears to Abram/Abraham several times.

Genesis 19:24 is one place where translating the Word of the LORD as simply LORD causes a bit of confusion.

Is there a reference specifically to Abraham and Moses not knowing Jesus somewhere in the NT that I have missed? My reading of the OT is constantly revealing His presence throughout the entire time of Creation's existence.

And yes, this is relevent to the chip, somehow.

;)

Thank-you.
Bless up!

Natty Threads -
My reference to 20:11-15 is clarified this way: First read Revelations 20:4-5. Here you find that the first resurrection is for the Christian, not those who lived before Christ. Christ is referred to as the "firstfruits" by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:12-23. Here, Paul establishes an order of resurrection - Christ until those alive at His return. So what happens to those who died before His time? That is found in Revelations 20:11-15. The sea AND death / hell give up the dead and they are judged according to their works. Notice that the book of life is opened; this is the book mentioned first in Exodus 32:32.
This is the reason I used Moses or Abraham as examples. They lived before Christ but they are written in the book of life. (Now, it is possible that they are two of the 24 elders in heaven but that's pure speculation.) Hope that helps!!
 
Natty Threads -
My reference to 20:11-15 is clarified this way: First read Revelations 20:4-5. Here you find that the first resurrection is for the Christian, not those who lived before Christ. Christ is referred to as the "firstfruits" by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:12-23. Here, Paul establishes an order of resurrection - Christ until those alive at His return. So what happens to those who died before His time? That is found in Revelations 20:11-15. The sea AND death / hell give up the dead and they are judged according to their works. Notice that the book of life is opened; this is the book mentioned first in Exodus 32:32.
This is the reason I used Moses or Abraham as examples. They lived before Christ but they are written in the book of life. (Now, it is possible that they are two of the 24 elders in heaven but that's pure speculation.) Hope that helps!!

It is my belief that the two groups you talk about here in Rev are not to time classes but rather the first is all who are saved from Adam to end and
the next class are those who are not in Christ thus they are the dead they have no part in the reward of the saved. thus they are not written in the book of life.

we must remember and this is a common mistake but those before Christ are judged in the same way those after are. it is by faith read Hebrews not by works. even James tells us that we should live as those who are judged by the law. yet we are saved by faith not works just as all those who came before Christ are.

see there are two judgments one before the second coming of Christ and one after. the one before is to judge those who claime to be Gods. "judgment shall start at the house of the Lord" this has to be true and is found in the book of Daniel and also the first few chapters of Revelation are in fact this first judgment seen. also rev 11 we see a judgment seen that comes after the time of the gentiles but before the second coming. this is why Jesus says "behold I come soon and my reward is with me"
The reward is with Him because they have already been found worthy hence they have already been judged.

now on the other hand there is a judgment that goes on after the second comming but this one is for those who do not follow God in any way. they have refused Christ this is the second class who are called the dead and it is said of them they will suffer the second death. although there will be some in this class form the first judgment as well. eg those who claime to have Jesus and though they may follow Jesus at least on the outside are not truly converted. we are told this "do you not know that we will even judge angels"

If you read some of the parables of Jesus even the saved will be judged by there works not just the unsaved Ill let you find this one that way no one can say i made it up and put the idea in your head. let me clarify one thing
while we may be judged by our works it is grace of Christ that saves us not our works, but that being said our works what we say and do show what is in the heart " by their fruits ye shall know them" James said "show me your faith without works and I'll show you mine with works" and "do not just be hearers of the word but doers of the word" and again "live as those who will be judged by the law of liberty" and if anyone is confused what the law of liberty is read what James said just prior to this and it is clear it is the ten commandments which can only be fulfilled by love.

sorry I dont like putting references becasue people don't read then and they don't really know the context or if its true or not so i figure true seekers will hunt down wether these things are true or not

blessings God be with you
 
It is my belief that the two groups you talk about here in Rev are not to time classes but rather the first is all who are saved from Adam to end and
the next class are those who are not in Christ thus they are the dead they have no part in the reward of the saved. thus they are not written in the book of life.

we must remember and this is a common mistake but those before Christ are judged in the same way those after are. it is by faith read Hebrews not by works. even James tells us that we should live as those who are judged by the law. yet we are saved by faith not works just as all those who came before Christ are.

see there are two judgments one before the second coming of Christ and one after. the one before is to judge those who claime to be Gods. "judgment shall start at the house of the Lord" this has to be true and is found in the book of Daniel and also the first few chapters of Revelation are in fact this first judgment seen. also rev 11 we see a judgment seen that comes after the time of the gentiles but before the second coming. this is why Jesus says "behold I come soon and my reward is with me"
The reward is with Him because they have already been found worthy hence they have already been judged.

now on the other hand there is a judgment that goes on after the second comming but this one is for those who do not follow God in any way. they have refused Christ this is the second class who are called the dead and it is said of them they will suffer the second death. although there will be some in this class form the first judgment as well. eg those who claime to have Jesus and though they may follow Jesus at least on the outside are not truly converted. we are told this "do you not know that we will even judge angels"

If you read some of the parables of Jesus even the saved will be judged by there works not just the unsaved Ill let you find this one that way no one can say i made it up and put the idea in your head. let me clarify one thing
while we may be judged by our works it is grace of Christ that saves us not our works, but that being said our works what we say and do show what is in the heart " by their fruits ye shall know them" James said "show me your faith without works and I'll show you mine with works" and "do not just be hearers of the word but doers of the word" and again "live as those who will be judged by the law of liberty" and if anyone is confused what the law of liberty is read what James said just prior to this and it is clear it is the ten commandments which can only be fulfilled by love.

sorry I dont like putting references becasue people don't read then and they don't really know the context or if its true or not so i figure true seekers will hunt down wether these things are true or not

blessings God be with you

Thank you for your post. While I agree that you cannot be saved by works, let me show you why I believe what I wrote.
Revelations 20:4 states that all who will NOT die in the second death are raised. It is obvious that they are Christians from the text. Judgment is given unto them. This is the judgment seat of Christ as mentioned in Romans 14:10. This judgment is a judgment of works while in Christ. There is punishment and rewards - small and great. There is no punishment of eternal death according to verse Rev. 20:6. You will notice that the book of life is not mentioned. Why? Because these have the seal of God; these have been marked and are permananently sealed to Christ's sacrifice.
This is mentioned again in 2 Thessalonians 4:16 and in 1 Corinthians 15:23. Christ is the first to be resurrected and everyone saved by His blood from His time forward.
The judgment in 20:11-15 has books opened, including the book of life. This book is first mentioned in Exodus 32:32. While the passage in Revelations does say, "judged...according to their works" and while I agree that works CANNOT save you, look at Mark 12:28-33. Here, Christ establishes that while the Law cannot save, it does have written the "greatest commandment." Since a commandment is meant to be obeyed, it is a "work" if you will. He also showed in this passage that sacrifices and burnt offerings did nothing, but the heart of the one sacrificing was the "value" of the sacrifice.
Looking at the story of Cain and Abel in Genesis 4, we see that God respected Abel's sacrifice, but not Cain's. There was no Law yet, no promise of a Messiah. Yet, God knew that Abel's sacrifice was out of love and honor while Cain's was out of necessity and command. While one loved God, the other didn't. The same thought is shown Mark 12:41-44 - the poor widow giving two mites.
Moving back to the judgment of God in Rev. 20:11-15, one would wonder why God would open the book of life if none of those before Him were written therein. One would also wonder why it states that the sea & death/hell gives up its dead, but it only shows death/hell being thrown to the lake of fire. One would also wonder why this would be called "judgment" or why any book would be opened if this were purely damnation.
Finally, when I mentioned the book of life earlier, this is not to say that we aren't in it, because Phillippians 4:3 says we are. The book of life has everyone's name from the beginning to the end who is saved within.
God bless!
 
Thank you for your post. While I agree that you cannot be saved by works, let me show you why I believe what I wrote.
Revelations 20:4 states that all who will NOT die in the second death are raised. It is obvious that they are Christians from the text. Judgment is given unto them. This is the judgment seat of Christ as mentioned in Romans 14:10. This judgment is a judgment of works while in Christ. There is punishment and rewards - small and great. There is no punishment of eternal death according to verse Rev. 20:6. You will notice that the book of life is not mentioned. Why? Because these have the seal of God; these have been marked and are permananently sealed to Christ's sacrifice.
This is mentioned again in 2 Thessalonians 4:16 and in 1 Corinthians 15:23. Christ is the first to be resurrected and everyone saved by His blood from His time forward.
The judgment in 20:11-15 has books opened, including the book of life. This book is first mentioned in Exodus 32:32. While the passage in Revelations does say, "judged...according to their works" and while I agree that works CANNOT save you, look at Mark 12:28-33. Here, Christ establishes that while the Law cannot save, it does have written the "greatest commandment." Since a commandment is meant to be obeyed, it is a "work" if you will. He also showed in this passage that sacrifices and burnt offerings did nothing, but the heart of the one sacrificing was the "value" of the sacrifice.
Looking at the story of Cain and Abel in Genesis 4, we see that God respected Abel's sacrifice, but not Cain's. There was no Law yet, no promise of a Messiah. Yet, God knew that Abel's sacrifice was out of love and honor while Cain's was out of necessity and command. While one loved God, the other didn't. The same thought is shown Mark 12:41-44 - the poor widow giving two mites.
Moving back to the judgment of God in Rev. 20:11-15, one would wonder why God would open the book of life if none of those before Him were written therein. One would also wonder why it states that the sea & death/hell gives up its dead, but it only shows death/hell being thrown to the lake of fire. One would also wonder why this would be called "judgment" or why any book would be opened if this were purely damnation.
Finally, when I mentioned the book of life earlier, this is not to say that we aren't in it, because Phillippians 4:3 says we are. The book of life has everyone's name from the beginning to the end who is saved within.
God bless!

Cheers Brother for your explanation

I now see at least in part what you believe We see things quite differently here. but thats fine. I beleave that before god rewards or punishes he will first judge, now question does GOd need to look into everything? No He already knows all about us so why? well for the sake fo those who are unfallen out there in other worlds as the Bible briefly mentions other worlds. GOd is assuring them that sin will not rise again if He lets these people who have accepted His sacrifice in to heaven. after this when all is satified with Gods decission and that they can see and understand that GOd is just and loving then He will come and collect His own. at this point during the 1000 years those who are saved will partake in judgment of the dead and thus we will see why those who are left are not in heaven but remember God is just and the Word says that every knee will bow not just those who accept Him.

thus at the end of the 1000 years we and the entire creaton of God will see clearly the justice and fairness of GOd in dealing with sin. at this point we will return to earth and the dead all those who are not saved will be ressurected again and even then they with Satan will try to take the city of GOd by force. But God will stop them and show them how by their own choice they will not be saved then they will bow before God and admit their guilt and choice to walk away from GOd but their hearts will not be changed they just acknowledge truth but they are unrepentant then fire and brimstone wil come down and the second death will be complete for the wages of sin is death eternal. that is my understanding of the events in short. sorry no scriptures I can see that you are aware of the references of the judgment.

thankyou brother blessings And God be with you
 
Letusgo27, thanks for your reponse.

First, what do you mean by "other worlds"? I don't recall Scripture pointing to other worlds. I would like to see a reference on this.

Second, judgment is given before rewards or punishment, like you stated. But there is a difference between the judgment seat of Christ and the great white throne judgment of the sea & death/hell. If you read Rev. 20:6, those who are judged of Christ are of the first resurrection and the second death has no power over them. So what is their judgment? 2 Corinthians 5:10 states that it is the "things done in his body, whether it be good or bad." This is indicative of works. Where we can see that works don't damn or save the soul, they do have purpose and structure your reward in heaven.

This is different than the great white throne judgment of God in Revelations 20:11-15. This is the second resurrection. This is not to say that it is the second death. However, those in the death/hell scene (eg. those who refused Christ or God) partake in the second death, which is referred to as the "lake of fire" in 20:14. The sea, however, is judged "according to their works". As everyone knows, works can't save you, so how does this verse apply if it seems to say so? What about an Aborigine in 1632 who never heard of God or Jesus? Was he created simply for the sake of damnation? What about those who waited on the Lord to come but died before His redemptive blood was shed? Did they die in their sins, or was their hope in the promises of God enough to save them? What about Abel or Adam who died before the Law or the promises were made? Could their faith and love for God have been enough to save them? What about those born with mental incapacties or those who died before the age of reasoning? Where I totally agree that Christ is the only way to God, I also believe God is a just Judge. No one can be closed-minded enough to believe that every human being in the world has at one point in their life heard of Christ or the gospel. These are ignorant, not willingly rebellious. I believe that these are the "sea" in the great white throne judgment. And I do not believe everyone in the "sea" is damned, else why would it be written that the "books were opened" and the "book of life was opened" and "whosoever was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" if no one was found in the book of life?

Third, you said that we would go somewhere and then return to earth. I beg to differ here. First, Revelations 6:14-17 shows His return as mighty and present. Revelations 11:15-18 shows God actually taking over the kingdoms of the world. Revelations 19:11-21 shows Christ taking the beast (ie. the world powers) and the false prophet (ie. the false church) & casting them to a lake of fire. He overpowers the world (eating the flesh of kings, captains, etc.). There is no where in Revelations that shows Him taking us to a different world or plane, etc. There is no mention of us returning from the aforementioned, either. It is only after the judgments in that we see the new heaven, earth and holy city (Revelations 21).

Thank you for your post! I don't aim to change people's minds; I don't aim to offend. I want people to read and study; not just Revelations but the entire Bible. I aim for truth. I've referenced my beliefs with Scripture. I do hope you'll read the references. God bless and have a wonderful day!!
 
There was no Law yet, no promise of a Messiah.

OH my post was eaten.

There is the promise of the Messiah to the serpent in Genesis 3:15. (see also Romans 16:20)
While we are not given a Law, there is no evidence that there was no Law. Our best reasoning should lead us to believe that there was Law from the beginning, not that God ruled a Lawless world.

David very obviously believed that he had eternal salvation, for his faith AND for his lawfulness. Psalm 16 is a good one to demonstrate this, but many of the psalms express the same faithful hope.

Regard Isaiah 1:16-20, and especially Ezekiel 18: well, all of it.

Always a pleasure to read the posts.

Bless up!
 
Mmm- It's "Revelation" not "Revelations"- which will help because "Revelation" will provide a verse link.

Bless up!
 
Natty Threads -

This is the reason I used Moses or Abraham as examples. They lived before Christ but they are written in the book of life.

They both had a relationship with the Word of God, which Christ is.
Also, the Word is through whom all was created. Clearly Jesus in some form has been present throughout time, from the first God spoke.

Abraham and Moses are not dead.
First, there is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus and Abraham's bosom. Second, there is the incident where Jesus is overseen speaking with Elijah and Moses.

I agree with your analysis for the most part.
This is why I asked if Moses and Abraham were specifically mentioned in the context that you presented.

I don't pretend to know anything about the 24 elders other than that they exist. However, if the only choice is that Moses and Abraham are dead waiting to be judged or of the 24 elders, clearly they must be of the 24 elders.

I don't know what happens after we die.

Bless up!
 
I hope me responding in bits is helpful rather than distracting.

Natty Threads -
My reference to 20:11-15 is clarified this way: First read Revelation 20:4-5. Here you find that the first resurrection is for the Christian, not those who lived before Christ.

"...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image..."

This refers to martyrs. Since it includes those martyred for the word of God, it is possible to include those from before Jesus' physical human manifestation. I would really have to read it in the Greek and do some serious thought to form a concrete opinion as to exactly to whom it refers. The English certainly leaves some room.

Revelation 20:13, "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every one according to their deeds."

Yes, all that were in the sea, death, and Hades were judged.
What of those who were not?

What of those who shall not taste death?
Because Revelation 20:14 calls the lake of fire the second death.

And what of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom?
Surely neither Abraham nor Lazarus are dead in this parable.
And the point of the parable is that they are not in Hades.
(As well as to point out that those in Hades are aware.)

And again, even ignoring Jesus' pervasive presence throughout the Old Testament, what about His speaking with Moses?
Moses could not possibly in the sea, Hades, or death if he is speaking with Jesus.

And SaulC, I am not trying to disagree with you, just trying to get more out of you. Thank-you.

Bless up!
 
OK thankyou for your response maybe I need to provide some scriptures here to better show why I think what I think.

The first important fact about hell is this: The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. Christ explicitly taught this truth in the well-known parable of the wheat and the tares. After the householder had sown the wheat in the field, his servant came to report that tares were growing among the grain. His question was whether he should pull up the weeds while they were still very small. The householder's answer was, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:29, 30.
Now follow the words of Christ as He explains the meaning of the parable: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-42.
No one can simplify the parable by enlarging on what Jesus said. It is so clear that a child can understand it. He said the tares represented the wicked people, and that they would be cast into the fire "at the end of the world." It was in the harvest that the separation would take place, and He plainly stated, "The harvest is the end of the world." How can anyone misconstrue these words of Christ? The whole idea of the wicked going into the fire at the time of death contradicts our Lord's specific teaching that they would be cast into the fire at the end of the world.
Since the judgment also takes place after Christ comes we can see how impossible it would be for anyone to be punished before that time. Justice demands that a person be brought into judgment before being punished. Peter declared, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9. That certainly makes sense, doesn't it? Suppose a man should be brought into the court accused of stealing, and the judge said, "Put him away for ten years; then we'll try his case." Listen, even a human judge would not be that unfair! He would be impeached for such an action. Surely God would not be guilty of such a farce.
If we let the Bible mean what it says, there can be no doubt on this point. The wicked are "reserved" until when? Until the "day of judgment." To be what? "To be punished"! This means they cannot be punished before that judgment day. Does the Bible tell where they are reserved until then? Christ Himself said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29.
How plain! Jesus said that both good and bad will come forth from their graves to receive either life or damnation. This proves that from the time of death until they come forth in the resurrection they are not receiving any recompense or punishment. It all happens after they come forth. They are reserved until that day just as Peter indicated, but Christ spelled out where they will be reserved-"in the graves."
If plainer words are needed, listen to Jesus speaking in Luke 14:14, "Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Or hear Him again in Matthew 16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." When is "then"? When He comes with His angels. No reward or recompense is handed out until the resurrection of the just, when He comes with all the angels. These verses are beyond controversy. Taken in their context, they contain no ambiguity or hidden meaning.
Again Christ is quoted in the very last chapter of the Bible, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. Here He reminds us that "every man"-every person-will receive his just reward when Christ returns to this earth. Job declares "that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction. They shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Daniel wrote that they which "sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2. Can there be any doubt where the wicked are reserved before facing resurrection, judgment, and punishment? We have the testimony of Peter, Daniel, Job and the Master Himself. There is no room to quibble. They are reserved in the grave.
Now we come to the second great fact about hell: None of the unsaved will be cast into hell-fire until after the second coming of Jesus at the end of the world. Although we have already seen substantial evidence on this point, let's look even more. Describing the punishment of the wicked, John wrote: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

Here the lost are pictured in the fires of hell, suffering the punishment for their sins. And what is that punishment? "The second death," says John. Do you realize what this proves about the wicked? It proves they will not be cast into the lake of fire until after the resurrection takes place. These people die the second death in the fire, but they cannot suffer a second death until they get a second life. They lived the first life in this world and died the first death, going into the grave. Before they can die a second death they must be resurrected-they must be given a second life. This, of course, is what happens at the end of the world. Jesus said, "All that are in the graves shall come forth."
Now after getting that second life in the resurrection, the wicked will be punished for their sins in hell-fire, "which is the second death." By the way, that second death is the final, eternal death from which there will be no resurrection. But the point to be noted is the time of this hell-fire punishment-it is after the resurrection at the end of the world. It does not take place at the time of the first death as so many have been led to believe.
Does the Bible tell us how the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire? Yes, it does. John describes the dramatic events that take place at the close of the millennium. "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:7-9.
Here at the end of the millennium all the wicked people who have ever lived will come forth in the second resurrection. After describing how the righteous would come to life and reign with Christ during the thousand years, John wrote, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Revelation 20:5.
The rest of the dead, of course, had to be the wicked, and their resurrection will provide opportunity for Satan to take up his continuing battle against God and the saints. He goes out to gather the host of lost ones, who have been raised from the dead. He has people to deceive once more, and he convinces them that they can prevail against the New Jerusalem which has descended from God out of heaven (Revelation 21:2). As they march up and encompass the city, the wicked are suddenly cut down by the devouring fire which rains upon them from heaven. This is the hell-fire which is the final punishment for sin.

Ok lets look at what begins the 1ooo years Rev 20:4 says that Christ second coming at the resurrection begins the 1000 years
what resurrection is this its the first so there are two Rev 20:5-6 for the righteous people

when is the second resurrection and who will be raised in it Rev 20:5 the rest of the dead hear the word dead does not mean they are not living physically but spiritually. this is also shown in Jesus words John 5:28, 29 res of life and res of damnation only two one for life one for punishment. and this one takes place at the end of the 1000 years. please note that the resurrection of the righteous begins the 1000 years and the resurrection of the wicked ends the 1000 years

so at the second coming the 1000 years begine 1 Thes 4:16, 17 Rev 16:18,20 ,21 Jer 4:23-26 Isaiah 24:1,3 ,19, 20 and 2:21

what happens to the wicked at the second coming of Christ Isaiah 11:4, 2 Thess 1:7,8 , Psalms 68:2 Rev 20:5
these verses show clearly that the wicked will be slain by the very presence fo Christ at the second coming and thus the wicked will remain dead untill the end of the 1000 years.
Jereamiah 25:33 and 4:25 show that during this time there will be no living human on earth.

Revelation 22:11, 12 makes it clear that the case of every person is decided before Jesus returnes

where will Satan be in this time

The word for "bottomless pit" in the original Greek is "abussos," or abyss. That same word is used in the Greek version of the Old Testament in Genesis 1:2 in connection with the creation of the earth, but there it is translated "deep." "The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." How interesting! The words "deep," "bottomless pit," and "abyss" here refer to the same thing--the earth in its totally dark, disorganized form before God made order of it. Jeremiah, in describing this earth during the 1,000 years, used virtually the same terms as these in Genesis 1:2: "without form and void," "no light," "no man," 'black." Jeremiah 4:23, 25, 28. So the battered, dark earth with no people alive will be called the bottomless pit, or abyss, during the 1,000 years just as it was in the beginning before Creation was completed. Isaiah 24:22 also speaks of Satan and his angels during the 1,000 years as "gathered in the pit" and "shut up in the prison." so what begins the 1000 years?

1. Devastating earthquake and hailstorm (Revelation 16:18-21; Revelation 6:14-17).
2. Second coming of Jesus for His saints (Matthew 24:30, 31).
3. Righteous dead raised to life (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
4. Righteous given immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).
5. Righteous given bodies like Jesus (1 John 3:2; Philippians 3:21).
6. All righteous caught up into the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
7. Living wicked slain by the breath of the Lord's mouth (Isaiah 11:4).
8. Wicked in graves remain dead until the end of the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5).
9. Jesus takes righteous to heaven (John 13:33, 36; 14:1-3).
10. Satan bound (Revelation 20:1-3).

Revelation 20:4 says there will be a judgment in heaven during the 1,000 years. What for? Who will participate
"I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them ... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Revelation 20:4. "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? ... Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3.

The righteous of all ages (and probably even good angels) will participate in the judgment during the 1,000 years. The cases of all who are lost, including the devil and his angels, will be reviewed. This judgment will make details regarding the lost clear to each saved person. In the end, all will see that people are shut out of heaven only if they did not really want to live like Jesus or to be with Him.
what happens during the 1000 years

1. Earth in battered condition from huge hailstones and devastating earthquake (Revelation 16:18-21; 6:14-17).
2. Earth in total blackout/bottomless pit (Jeremiah 4:23, 28).
3. Satan and his angels forced to stay on the earth/bound (Revelation 20:1-3).
4. Righteous in heaven participating in the judgment (Revelation 20:4).
5. Wicked are all dead (Jeremiah 4:25; Isaiah 11:4

and the destruction of the dead at the end sorry running out of time.

hope this helps a bit Ill do more later if anything need clarification oh year and the worlds thing read Hebres 1:2 and Heb 11:3 uses worlds plural and it goes to reason that if GOd has always existed and is a creative God then we could not be the only living planet God created.

Blessings
 
OK thankyou for your response maybe I need to provide some scriptures here to better show why I think what I think.

The first important fact about hell is this: The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. Christ explicitly taught this truth in the well-known parable of the wheat and the tares. After the householder had sown the wheat in the field, his servant came to report that tares were growing among the grain. His question was whether he should pull up the weeds while they were still very small. The householder's answer was, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:29, 30.
Now follow the words of Christ as He explains the meaning of the parable: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-42.

Which would be the lake of fire, but please address the fact that there are dead in Hades before this who are removed from Hades and judged.

The whole idea of the wicked going into the fire at the time of death contradicts our Lord's specific teaching that they would be cast into the fire at the end of the world.

Again, address that dead are removed from Hades to be judged.

Since the judgment also takes place after Christ comes we can see how impossible it would be for anyone to be punished before that time. Justice demands that a person be brought into judgment before being punished.

Maybe they are being chastened for cleansing.
This also puzzles me, but there's no disputing that the bible says there are souls in Hades as separate from the dead.

Peter declared, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9. That certainly makes sense, doesn't it? Suppose a man should be brought into the court accused of stealing, and the judge said, "Put him away for ten years; then we'll try his case." Listen, even a human judge would not be that unfair! He would be impeached for such an action. Surely God would not be guilty of such a farce.

So no-one goes to jail without a trial first?
Maybe the souls in Hades are like the thief who cannot be recogged waiting in jail for his trial.


This means they cannot be punished before that judgment day.
But they could be cleansed.

I used to believe that the dead were as if they were asleep until the judgement. A lot of scripture points that way and it is comforting to believe.

Maybe Hades refers to something other than a place for shades.
Maybe Hades isn't a place for punishment- it certainly was not punishment in Greek cosmology- just a place for the dead, some of whom happened to be receiving punishment.
 
Which would be the lake of fire, but please address the fact that there are dead in Hades before this who are removed from Hades and judged.


this verse or being in hades is not hard to fit togehter with the idea of sleep when dead, till the ressurection which comes after judgment. Hades which is a word used for the place where those who have departed from life simply means grave. the Idea of a hell that exists right now where people are tormented is not Biblical as I see it.

remember there is much to state that when in the grave there is no knowledge or understanding says solomon. and as you said Jesus calls it a sleep. God does not punish or reward until judgment has finished.
 
(This is not a letter to Chad, it is for everyone.)Speculation and Interpretation...meaning...Millions of professed christians walking in the muck, not knowing where to go. This is why sooooo many will run as fast as possible to follow the beast, thinking he is Jesus. Do you really believe Jesus left us blind without knowledge of the end of days? It would seem so, as millions speculate and try to interpret. Want to know where you stand? Consider the following...when you interpret the Word of God, it is no longer God's word, it is now 'Your' word!......( my response to '666 chip' )
 
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Mark of the Beast (666)

Hello!

Revelation Chapter 13 verse 16 It forced all the people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to be given a stamped image on their right hands or their foreheads,...

Interpretation: A FINGER PRINT (hand) or an EYE SCAN (foreheads) is a duty on entry into the United States.

Christian
 
over the years,and study chasing this topic im findind something interesting .
more "christians" that chase after who and what 666 is and stands for are doing 2 things ive learned are wrong.
firstly and christian must remember just who they are in CHRIST most of the time people are scared to look into this topic because they dont want to go through tribulation in any way shape or form john 16; 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

secondly we are to stand firm in our trust that JESUS and because of that we can lead others to him and through us he can care for others untill they are able to accept him.

i used to be all into chasing this topic both on forums and in church discussions and had arguments for every side of the discussion. unrill i woke up to john 16; 33 and
romans 8; 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
looking for leprachauns under rocks like this is achieving one thing sending souls to hell .
the "beast" will come and sao will his mark either choose JESUS or the ways of the world .
 
I have to say that I completely disagree with the original post because of Revelations 13:15-17. I will in no way get any permanent mark or implant into my body that causes people to find me or scan me or anything like that.

Revelation 13:15-17

New International Version (NIV)

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30924">15</sup> The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30925">16</sup> It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30926">17</sup> so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
 
The Mark?

The Universal Product Code, which is the bar code on all products
bought and sold.

If you look carefully at the numerals at the bottom of the code
there is a 9 and two sets of six digits. Turn the 9 upside down
and you get 666. Interesting.

I know that not all bar codes have this combination.

Nor, do I think this is the numbering system of the end times.

Could it be a forerunner for another system? Now that we are
accustomed with the UPC.
 
Do you mean to say that you think 'the mark' will be a bar code? I, personally, don't think so because tattoos can be hidden, ruined and removed.
 
Not sure.

Hello Kingofkings316, just an interesting idea.

It does not have to be a tattoo, it could
be a chip scanned with a wand.

There is no doubt that the mark will utilize
existing technology. We already use the UPC
to identify all products.

What would prevent the mark being an identification
in some new world order.

No one at this stage knows what the mark will be.

I am open to all possible theories.
 
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The Israelites were to keep God's laws with their hands (actions) and their eyes (minds/thoughts).

Deu 6:8 NKJV You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.


I think similarly the mark of the beast on hands and foreheads will be that of actions and thoughts.
 
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