A discussion about believing you are born again

[KingJ]

One minute you are saying I am wrong about ..... a person's good deeds will be burned up with the hay and stubble if they do not have Christ in their life.

It is as though you have memorized Christianity. You don't grasp it. I just typed a lengthy post explaining why I made that statement. Once more our interaction on a subject we completely disagree on results in you being elusive. I apologize for some statements I made. But you need to understand how frustrating discussion with you is. You are very elusive. When pinned your play is always these type of replies. I have seen you do this to others who disagree with you.

 

[Bill]

@Bill
You asked me as an answer , what do I know about angels.

I said why do you ask.
That statement or question is N.A to any other question or reply.
So again why do you ask?

Also when I said please don't combine the old and new testament ,

This again was only directed to ONE statement or reply from you.

You asked how did Moses hear from God without knowing Jesus.
That was an answer you gave which really did not even fit into the conversation quoted.

Please try to keep quotes and replies in their proper area. Other wise it makes it look as if people are saying things they are not in many different areas.

Thanks !!
Blessings to you

My friend, i was asking you about Angels for a reason. Infact all my questions are linked.

As you remember, i mentioned about veggies, meat and everything.

It is true with many Christians that where they stand at this moment, they will argue to the ends of the earth, they have it all figured out. It wont matter if the Christian has 2 yrs, 10 yrs or 50 yrs. The point i was trying to make, is that as God is eternal, it will take an eternity to learn of all He is. Sure, we grow, we learn. We figure out the basics. We grow with what is most important.

Jesus is the cornerstone. He is the basis of all we know and believe.

Never stop learning, comprehending, growing in God. If you ever get to a point where you think you know it all, then you know the devil has decieved you.

Peace Always in Christ

 

[At Peace]

You can't get away from 1st John 3:9; your whole doctrine is on this one verse. What does your KJ Bible says about the other verses I posted.
I notice you didn't say anything about them.

Are you inferring that you are espousing a doctrine that tolerates sin but this one verse stands in your way?

Php 3:12; Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

That which Paul had yet to "obtain" was listed in verse 21..."Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,"
He had yet to "obtain" his perfect new body.

Jas 1:12; Blessed is a man who perseveres under temptations; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Can you say that sinners "love Him"?
Will the sinner be "blessed?

1 Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Final judgement will occur on the last day.
Sin is the result of not having faith.

1 Pet 1:9; obtaining as the outcome of your testing in the faith the salvation of your souls.

Final judgement will occur on the last day.

Php 2:12; So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Another exhortation from an apostle warning us to "toe the line".

As you are having trouble digesting 1 John 3:9, how are you doing with verse 10?
It is written..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
Perhaps 1 John 5:18 can help clear up my "one verse doctrine".
It is written..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Those born of God can as likely commit sin as an apple tree is to bear onions.
"His seed remaineth in him"..

 

[At Peace]

I like the King James, I use it. I have 3 copies of it. But as the language has changed, people don't understand the meaning of words.
Some articles about this. Let me know if you know of others that disagree with these.

Early Modern English - Wikipedia
old English verbs eth endings...
What happened to the “‑est” and “‑eth” verb suffixes in English?



Plural present... plural denotes "multiple. Generally words ending in "th" denote plural.. or multiple.
But even King James doesn't always follow this.

Luke 17:7; But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?

In todays language we would say.. He "has" come from the field. Has being past tense.. Is being present tense.
But you can't "go and sit down" until you've already come in from the field. In fact, you can't even tell the servant
to sit down until he comes in from the field.

If this is true... then (every?) word that ends in th could be translated as....

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth(mutiple) sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth(multiple) hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth(multiple) righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth(multiple) sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth(multiple) from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth(multiple) not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth(multiple) not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The only people adhering to you "doctrine" are those wishing they could still commit sin while calling themselves Christians.
That which is born of God cannot bring forth evil fruit.

 

[At Peace]

My brother, there are many people who do stupid things in thier lifetime. But as long as they are breathing, i will never stop hoping that they may find Jesus. Nothing is impossible with God.
Look at the thief on the cross, just before his death he found Salvation.
If God is so merciful to that man, who am i to condemn anyone. If i condemn, then it is i who judge. Not God

Frankly, we can't "condemn" anyone.
But to ignore one's status outside of Christ edifies no one.
There is no hope in tolerating sin.

 

[At Peace]

But for each of the question remains: Are some people really born again [born from above, born of God] when they think they are or when they say that they are?
This is really perhaps the point of contention for many, isn't it? People can really repent [turn from sin] for to believe otherwise is to call Jesus a liar.

The fruit determines who one is "born of".

Whether or not a person is instantaneously placed into a state of sinlessness when he receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is another question. I don't believe that it is usually an instantaneous occurrence although it could be. If it is not instantaneous at the first moment of repentance this does not mean the person can never be fully repentant of all that he needs to be... at least while he still has time.

An unrepentant soul won't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What God has provided as I see it is all that a person need to become sinless. The reason many people fall short on this is not because it is impossible for God but because they say it is impossible while they remain in this fleshly vessel. This is what I have called a "negative faith".

Why worry about the "fleshy vessel"?
It was crucified with Christ, buried and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...at baptism (Rom 6:3-6)
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
True words, validated by the faithful in lives without sin.

In the following verse Jesus healed some blind men but he used some very significant words:
"Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you." Matt 9:29
"According to your faith be it unto you" is saying what we really believe is what is going to happen... or NOT. If a person does not believe that God can stop even this corrupted vessel from committing sin, to me that is a negative faith and truly we will not be able to stop committing sin.

Agreed.

If we have not really repented for everything, then it would seem to me that we are not yet fully born again. Can a person be partially born? Ask the natural mothers if it is possible for the birth of the natural child to be delayed.

If a child isn't yet born, it isn't yet born.

When the devil is our father then it is the devil that we are obeying or following. When we are a child of God then it is not God we are obeying or following?

Not if you are committing sin.

Can a natural child disobey the natural parent without being disinherited or without becoming an Illegitimate child?

It's more like...is a child born of human parents a human or not.
As we are reborn of God, won't we be Godly people?
I know so.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.

What do these verses mean?
"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Heb 12:7-8

Why do you think this chastening is for sin?
How about for some stupidity?

I understand that there is a point where a father might disinherit his biological child, but if he really loves the child he would be very slow to go so far...

You are trying to equate God to men, unsuccessfully.
Men should be acting as God would act.

Repentance is a possibility until there is no more time for it. Does not God determine how much time each of us has? Consider Esau:
"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." Heb 12:16-17
Does that mean that Esau has run out of time?

It certainly does.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

two things I would like to raise, please. (I shall raise one in this post and post the other following.)[no particular order or importance intended in the order}

As we gaze in wonder at the masterpiece of the Word,
As we discuss and delve into its intricacy,
As we get involved in the discovery of the work itself...
It becomes futile
to say the least
if we in so doing
forget the Master Himself.

Do we ever push the Master aside in our zeal to be heard, to be right, to be seen or even so simply in order to examine the Masterpiece more thoroughly?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Is there at any point after repentance that we cease to need a saviour?

If not, then can someone please attempt to explain for what reason this may be?

And, who is our saviour... us, in our own strength or Him Who is our Saviour, both Christ and Lord?


Bless you all ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

My friend, i was asking you about Angels for a reason. Infact all my questions are linked.

As you remember, i mentioned about veggies, meat and everything.

It is true with many Christians that where they stand at this moment, they will argue to the ends of the earth, they have it all figured out. It wont matter if the Christian has 2 yrs, 10 yrs or 50 yrs. The point i was trying to make, is that as God is eternal, it will take an eternity to learn of all He is. Sure, we grow, we learn. We figure out the basics. We grow with what is most important.

Jesus is the cornerstone. He is the basis of all we know and believe.

Never stop learning, comprehending, growing in God. If you ever get to a point where you think you know it all, then you know the devil has decieved you.

Peace Always in Christ

Thanks but you are preaching to the choir here.
Believe it or not I have been ridiculed for saying the more I learn the more I see how much I don't know.

Scripture says we only know in part.
So that means there are parts we don't know and those parts we don't know are like wholes in our doctrine.

Blessings to you

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Is there at any point after repentance that we cease to need a saviour?

If not, then can someone please attempt to explain for what reason this may be?

And, who is our saviour... us, in our own strength or Him Who is our Saviour, both Christ and Lord?


Bless you all ....><>

I will answer this as such.
We make Jesus our Lord and Savior.
But in All Truth - how much of our life do we Allow Him to be Lord over?

Before any one says well all of it,
I challenge you to seek the Father and let Him show you any area you have become wayside in.

Blessings to you

 

[Dave M]

Jim

that is a good question to help keep us all in check. I would say a few things to looks at, what do you think about most of the day what is on you mind is it Christ? if its not Christ that may very well be some sort of red flag.
What do you do with your money where is the majority of your money (after bills and such) Go, is it spent on chasing fleshy pleasures or is it spent on helping the Kingdom? Show me a mans check book and most of the time you can see a mans heart,. free time what do you do with your free time is it seeking to grow your faith or is to satisfy worldly desires? Keeping Jesus commandments is the way to see if you truly Love him according to the bible. Whats your prayer life look like?

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Confession of what I could do better, I need to stop judging people I have a issue with picking apart people even my pastor is a Godly man and one of the best pastors/people I know I find myself picking him apart sometimes, I have been working on this area in my life and have seen God helping me improve but is slow, so I ask all to pray for me in Jesus name

 

[Bill]

Thanks but you are preaching to the choir here.
Believe it or not I have been ridiculed for saying the more I learn the more I see how much I don't know.

Scripture says we only know in part.
So that means there are parts we don't know and those parts we don't know are like wholes in our doctrine.

Blessings to you

I dont think i would call it holes in the doctrine so much.

By the way, i didnt mean to get you frustrated/ upset.

Just like everyday life

Jim

that is a good question to help keep us all in check. I would say a few things to looks at, what do you think about most of the day what is on you mind is it Christ? if its not Christ that may very well be some sort of red flag.
What do you do with your money where is the majority of your money (after bills and such) Go, is it spent on chasing fleshy pleasures or is it spent on helping the Kingdom? Show me a mans check book and most of the time you can see a mans heart,. free time what do you do with your free time is it seeking to grow your faith or is to satisfy worldly desires? Keeping Jesus commandments is the way to see if you truly Love him according to the bible. Whats your prayer life look like?

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Confession of what I could do better, I need to stop judging people I have a issue with picking apart people even my pastor is a Godly man and one of the best pastors/people I know I find myself picking him apart sometimes, I have been working on this area in my life and have seen God helping me improve but is slow, so I ask all to pray for me in Jesus name

Yes i totally agree with that. Putting God first in all things and not just in some things.

When i drive down the road. (I drive a truck for a living), i will be listening to the radio. The Lord will ask me, "do you love me more than this song?". I will reply, "you know i do". Then i will turn off the music.

Sometime we will talk, sometimes He will share/teach. And sometimes i just sit in His presence being quiet.

P.s. You are in my prayers

 

[Br. Bear]

so I ask all to pray for me in Jesus name

most certainly Dave, most certainly,


Bless you ....><>

 

[amadeus2]

The fruit determines who one is "born of".

Yes, and God can recognize whether the fruit is good or it is evil... and anyone to whom God has given "eyes to see" what kind of fruit it is.

An unrepentant soul won't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

While this is so, I do not believe gift the Holy Ghost is the final answer. It is rather the means God has given to men to allow them to attain what he wants them to attain. Whether or not they do is still up to them. When God gave men the gift of the Holy Ghost, He never removed from them the right to choose to follow the lead of the Holy Ghost or not. For this reason the apostle Paul wrote:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

Why worry about the "fleshy vessel"?

I believe that each person has been made a steward over a part of God's property. That includes that "fleshy vessel". Because the vessel is dying and will eventually go back to dust mean we should abuse it with improper food or improper actions or inactions? God has "given" us many things, but they are still His. We will be judged according to how well we handled our stewardship. Even as stewards we may also be heirs, but an heir is not an owner until the land is signed over to him or until he has inherited.

"The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever." Psalm 37:29

"And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?" Luke 16:12

"He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him." Luke 19:12-26

 

[Bill]

Thanks but you are preaching to the choir here.
Believe it or not I have been ridiculed for saying the more I learn the more I see how much I don't know.

Scripture says we only know in part.
So that means there are parts we don't know and those parts we don't know are like wholes in our doctrine.

Blessings to you

You will never be ridiculed by me. I relious a good discussion, even if we dont agree.

You should have never been put down for what you said. It takes a wise man to admit there is so much more to learn.

It is Gods wisdom that teaches humility. And in the humility before God, you are wisest.

 

[amadeus2]

@At Peace

Amadeus said: Can a natural child disobey the natural parent without being disinherited or without becoming an Illegitimate child?

At Peace said: It's more like...is a child born of human parents a human or not.
As we are reborn of God, won't we be Godly people?
I know so.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.

The first man Adam was born of God... yet as we have seen he disobeyed God which was certainly not a Godly thing. It caused him to die. God is no respecter of persons. Adam lost Life when he disobeyed after being born of God. He moved from Godly to ungodly and was put outside of the Garden losing access to the Tree of Life.

God is no respecter of persons. As Adam lost Life through disobedience even though he was Godly, why should we being reborn of God expect better it we similarly disobey?

Amadeus said: What do these verses mean?
"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Heb 12:7-8

At Peace said: Why do you think this chastening is for sin?
How about for some stupidity?

We use whatever meaning we want for words, but whether we call it sin or stupidity or something else, the chastisement is administered because the father or the Father was displeased.

Amadeus said: I understand that there is a point where a father might disinherit his biological child, but if he really loves the child he would be very slow to go so far...

At Peace said: You are trying to equate God to men, unsuccessfully.
Men should be acting as God would act.

God gave us types and shadows in scripture to show us what should be done and what should not be done. He also showed what would be done in the end of the matter we did not properly use what He had provided for us to use.

We are not God and God does not expect us to be God, but He provided the means for us to do the necessary work while Light remains. If we fail to use those means it is we who will suffer the consequences. For us in our time and our place He gave us a Book [scriptures] and the gift of the Holy Ghost. With those things we can accomplish what Jesus accomplished while being tempted as a man.

Amadeus said:
Repentance is a possibility until there is no more time for it. Does not God determine how much time each of us has? Consider Esau:
"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." Heb 12:16-17
Does that mean that Esau has run out of time?

At Peace said: It certainly does.

Even so each of us has an allotted period of time to accomplish what God wants us to accomplish. Our end could be like Abel or like Esau. Our we not judged according to our stewardship?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I dont think i would call it holes in the doctrine so much.

By the way, i didnt mean to get you frustrated/ upset.

Just like everyday life

Well holes represents the blank, empty, unknown areas .

Frustrated? You have not even come close to getting me frustrated and if you ever did I would not reply at that point.
Blessings to you

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Jim

that is a good question to help keep us all in check. I would say a few things to looks at, what do you think about most of the day what is on you mind is it Christ? if its not Christ that may very well be some sort of red flag.
What do you do with your money where is the majority of your money (after bills and such) Go, is it spent on chasing fleshy pleasures or is it spent on helping the Kingdom? Show me a mans check book and most of the time you can see a mans heart,. free time what do you do with your free time is it seeking to grow your faith or is to satisfy worldly desires? Keeping Jesus commandments is the way to see if you truly Love him according to the bible. Whats your prayer life look like?

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Confession of what I could do better, I need to stop judging people I have a issue with picking apart people even my pastor is a Godly man and one of the best pastors/people I know I find myself picking him apart sometimes, I have been working on this area in my life and have seen God helping me improve but is slow, so I ask all to pray for me in Jesus name

Hi Dave,
Many believers will quickly boast that Jesus is Lord of Their life.....but, they have many areas where they have become wayside unto the Lord or another words won't go there or allow God in.

One example....Finances
Many folks will quickly shut the door when the thought of finances are concerned. After all they are theirs and they worked for them.

Dealing with or treating a spouse or child is a big one.

Walking in Love towards your rude co worker and so on.

You would be surprised at areas believers have been keeping off limits to God.

Blessings to you

 

[Dave M]

Hi Dave,
Many believers will quickly boast that Jesus is Lord of Their life.....but, they have many areas where they have become wayside unto the Lord or another words won't go there or allow God in.

One example....Finances
Many folks will quickly shut the door when the thought of finances are concerned. After all they are theirs and they worked for them.

Dealing with or treating a spouse or child is a big one.

Walking in Love towards your rude co worker and so on.

You would be surprised at areas believers have been keeping off limits to God.

Blessings to you

Can you say Luke warm, I fear most far to many are luke warm.