A discussion about believing you are born again

[sarah123]

Follow the entire conversation and here is a question for you.
Why do you say I was not being polite?
Blessings to you

i just thought we could answer a question with another question i wasnt thinking u werent being polite i was just simply saying

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

i just thought we could answer a question with another question i wasnt thinking u werent being polite i was just simply saying

Thank you for the reply.
I was not exactly sure , so i asked.
Blessings to you

 

[amadeus2]

you said " The person whose heart is circumcised may not be praised by man, but he will be praised by God. my question for you is...Now why is The person whose heart is circumcised may not be praised by man....why isnt he being praised by man and by god?

Lots of details and lots of scripture, but how is it that God works? Does He comes to us Only as a still small voice as He did that one time to Elijah or could He not also come to a person in the wind or in an earthquake or the fire... of some combination of those or another way altogether?

When Jesus was giving what is called the sermon on the Mount, there were thousands listening to Him. Once He took the lunch of a small boy and with it fed thousands. They praised Him did they not, those thousands, but where were they when he was made prisoner and was whipped? Where were they when the people [different people?] called out "Give us Barabbas" and with regard to Jesus they said "Crucify Him".

And then remember what Jesus said to His followers:

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." John 15:20

Do we have the "eyes to see" of which Jesus spoke and if not should we feint in our faith? Should we worry because we cannot at the moment seem to be able to see Him or hear Him? When we get into such a place we should perhaps remember this verse:

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29

 

[amadeus2]

I know what you are saying.

Also there are times the devil doesnt want you to talk to a person. Whenever i get a yuck feeling from someone, i make a point to meet them.

Bikers, unbathed, characters you name it. I take on that challenge head on.

When i go home, and park the truck. Ill ask the guy next to me at the truckstop. Here for the weekend? If they say yes, ill let them know they would be welcome for dinner.

The first time i brought a guy home, my wife wasnt too thrilled, lol. Now she is the one who invites the poor in and those who just need help.

This reminds me of many years ago when during an evening church service a lady came into the room obviously quite drunk on alcohol wearing very dirty clothes with a stink to her that caused people to turn away. She went immediately to the front where there was an altar for that purpose and knelt down burying her face in her hands and began to cry and call out to God for forgiveness and help.

Most of the assembly including the pastor and the ministers on the platform tried to ignore her as if hoping she would somehow go away. The only one to say anything loud enough for the lady to hear was the pastor's son who said in effect: "Who turned on the light on the cross over the church?" If you don't understand what he meant, just consider that it was a very negative statement.

My wife and I were fairly new to that assembly and waited a bit on the others... But when no one else moved, my wife... yes, my wife who had always loved and helped people as a matter of course long before she really knew the Lord, got up and walked to that crying woman. My wife got up and walked up to that crying, drunken, stinking woman and knelt beside her putting her arms around her prayed with her. I was slower, at least in part because it was a woman, not my wife, who was in need, but finally seeing that still no one else was going to lend support, I went to support my wife as she supported that hungry, thirsty woman. [To be honest, I am not sure I would have done better than the rest if it were not for my wife.]

It turned out that the woman was a backslidden Pentecostal lady who was stranded from out of state in her small nearly worn-out old motor-home with a couple of small children. Why she was drunk I don't know, but that she needed help was a certainty. After praying for a while she left the building and went to her vehicle parked in a vacant lot across the road. My wife followed her and came back shortly to ask me for money which I gave her. My wife said she was going to buy them some food from a near-by store, which she did and I helped her carry several bags of groceries to them. No one else in the congregation made any move to help in any way. I guess that was the beginning of the end of our connection with that assembly. My wife has always given me the lead in spiritual things for us, but sometimes, as in that case, it has been her through which God has made the initial move.

Give God the glory!

 

[At Peace]

In what ''sense''?

Yes, as the "flesh" has been killed, and we have been "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life", we are still walking in "skin" that will not go to heaven.
Our spirit/soul however, will go to heaven to receive a new "mansion" to live in for eternity.

You say 'steps'. Are these two steps (repentance and baptism) all the steps? Is baptism an essential step?

They are all the steps to start on the road to the redemption manifested at the day of judgement. (Eph 4:30)
Both are essential.

 

[At Peace]

The sense that the reborn are already with Jesus.

Yes, "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (Col 3:3)

 

[At Peace]

I would have to say we all agree there are "steps", there are things that need to happen. Repentence, acceptance of Jesus. And a form of Baptism. I say form, because if we get into semantics (i.e. water baptism) then we need to explain the thief on the cross.

The thief on the cross had, in my opinion, a baptism of grace. There are circumstances that just dont fit into everyones box of what we think it should be.

If you read Romans 6:3-6, you will see that the thief did exactly as we do when we are water baptized..
He was crucified with Christ, buried with Christ...(same day), and promised to be "raised with Christ".

 

[KingJ]

Yes, as the "flesh" has been killed, and we have been "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life", we are still walking in "skin" that will not go to heaven.
Our spirit/soul however, will go to heaven to receive a new "mansion" to live in for eternity.

They are all the steps to start on the road to the redemption manifested at the day of judgement. (Eph 4:30)
Both are essential.

You said you need to fast to show the skin who is boss. Fasting is not something that should even be mentioned with a belief in perfection. It is ''10000%'' applicable to imperfection. We can't say ''look how holy I am, I can go without food''.
I will give you an example.

Lets say you attend a church where everyone drives a modest Toyota. You drive a Mercedes and an old lady in the church drives an old broken down Ford.

If you fasted, God would show you the need to sell the Mercedes and buy a Toyota for yourself and that old lady. If you already new to do that, you would not need to fast.

As for steps. I cannot disagree more. We have either been judged and passed God's judgement or we have not. There is ''one'' step. The criminal next to Jesus on the cross was not baptized.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

If you fasted, God would show you the need to sell the Mercedes and buy a Toyota for yourself and that old lady. If you already new to do that, you would not need to fast.

Fasting simply crucifies or makes your flesh , human nature submit.

Why would God tell you to sell your Mercedes and buy a Toyota for you and the old lady?
She may like the mercedes.
So we need to have lesser things to be humble?

Brother poverty does not equal humility .
Blessings to you

 

[Br. Bear]

my neighbour owns a mercedes. It is of much less value than a modest toyota due to it's vintage but still a well designed and built piece of machinery. He likes it which is why he owns it.

Greetings,

I am not sure what owning a mercedes has to do with being born again but sometimes i wonder if our Lord, Who made this amazing world in which we live, is all that impressed with any polluting machinery at all.
In fact, when you sit back and take off any prejudice due to either owning or making good of them, any petroleum powered machinery, while it serves men purpose, have so many bad side-effects that I once again wonder why it is that people in general use them, be it any oil based item, but vehicles are perhaps the most treacherous of all in their ownership and use. Of course the vehicles themselves are only refashioned bits of creation so it must be somehow linked to people being the real problem?
And as Christians, do we ever really consider the vileness of things like motor vehicles or aeroplanes or fuel powered boats, etc?

So using the analogy of selling a car to buy someone one is not necessarily a selling point for doing good and arguing fasting or not.
Do we ever think outside of our own little box? The box that we try to put and keep the Almighty God Who made all things and is Mighty to save in?

While it can be a way to pass time, arguing over things of God is not very glorifying to Him, especially if we profess to go by His name.

Has anyone here ever heard or read a Scripture that mentions 'building one another up in Truth'? Not tearing each other down to inspect the foundations. Not passing accusations against another who God has to deal with and for all we know from our little boxes, is faithfully doing that which is fitting as a member of the Body, according to the working of God in Christ Jesus the Lord. Not seeking to devour one another and bring each other down....? Anyone?

I think most of us agree the days are evil. Let us examine ourselves, not the next man. Encourage him, exhort him, build him up, but don't shoot or crucify him if he testifies of the Scriptures that they are trustworthy and true.

Regarding 'believing that we are born again', what advice can we give readers who may be searching for answers in order to examine themselves?
For the most part, the content of this thread has been at best confusing and a definite signpost against even wanting to become Born Again (whatever that really means).

So, how about it men. Can we proceed in the goodness that has been shown to us and let our lights so shine before men.... you know the rest.


Bless you ....><>

Ps.. I shall now close this thread, for a short while, in order for all participating members to read what I have written and if possible to grasp what is being said and then consider his ways before both God and man.

For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. 2Corinthians 1:12

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings men,

thread re-opened.

Post in Peace


Bless you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Why would God tell you to sell your Mercedes and buy a Toyota for you and the old lady?

Deal with our pride and have a love for others.

She may like the mercedes.

C'mon Jim. Red herring

So we need to have lesser things to be humble?

Generally, yes. If you have a Ferrari, you can say you care about the old lady with a broken down ford, but nobody will believe you.

Brother poverty does not equal humility .

I did not mention poverty. But I will propose we should live at a certain poverty level. In a world where everyone is taken care of, that would not be needed. We are not in that world.

As an extreme example of my point, you need to consider those who died in concentration camps from starvation. When you are given a little bread, knowing it is not enough to keep you alive. But were you to give it to your child. Theirs and your portion will keep them alive. You not doing it is you not fulfilling the second commandment. Even if it is not your child, but rather your enemy.

Now, today we simply have no excuse. The excuses just get all the more hilarious. Google has empowered us to see all the needy.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Greetings @Br. Bear ,
Out obedience and honoring your post #150,

I would like to respond to post #152
I however do not desire to get off topic of the O.P

So if you feel it is worthy as a good thread. I was wondering if you could take these post on giving and humility and so forth and start a new thread.

Thank You Sir
Blessings to you

===========
EDIT: @Wired 4 Fishen
you are not obliged to reply to the post. I appreciate that you are sincere about not wanting to get off topic which is why i am editing here rather than posting a reply.

I shall look into it. You could however, start a similar thread yourself and from what i understand you should be able to multi-quote and insert those quotes on a new post in a new thread if you do start one. I could be wrong but I am sure you used to be able to do so. Try it, if you like and if it doesn't work, let us know, please. (if you do try it, that is)

Thank you for tagging me on this. Humbling stuff....


Bless you ....><>
Br. Bear

 

[At Peace]

You said you need to fast to show the skin who is boss. Fasting is not something that should even be mentioned with a belief in perfection. It is ''10000%'' applicable to imperfection. We can't say ''look how holy I am, I can go without food''.
I will give you an example.

While I didn't use the word "need" to fast, the availability to do so is another tool given by the grace of God for our enrichment.
No Christian brags about how long they have subjected the "skin" to a lack of comfort.

Lets say you attend a church where everyone drives a modest Toyota. You drive a Mercedes and an old lady in the church drives an old broken down Ford.
If you fasted, God would show you the need to sell the Mercedes and buy a Toyota for yourself and that old lady. If you already new to do that, you would not need to fast. .

Perhaps He would have, but perhaps He would have shown me a way to help repair her car instead.
I can't speak to rhetorical examples.

As for steps. I cannot disagree more. We have either been judged and passed God's judgement or we have not. There is ''one'' step. The criminal next to Jesus on the cross was not baptized.

Which step do you disagree with?
The turn from sin, (repentance), or the washing away of your past sins by the blood of Christ, (baptism)?
Do you feel that one with their old sins still clinging onto them will be judged worthy?
Do you feel that one who is still rebelling against God is worthy?

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

next time you get to a doorway of your house, going in, see that you can not take only one step to enter.
Once 'in', you would probably feel fairly daft if you stayed put and stood there for long.

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given Himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Ephesians 5:2

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings all,

Reading these replies over again, I was wondering how these points and principles help us or anyone in believing they are born again.... or not?

You said you need to fast to show the skin who is boss. Fasting is not something that should even be mentioned with a belief in perfection. It is ''10000%'' applicable to imperfection. We can't say ''look how holy I am, I can go without food''.
I will give you an example.

Lets say you attend a church where everyone drives a modest Toyota. You drive a Mercedes and an old lady in the church drives an old broken down Ford.

If you fasted, God would show you the need to sell the Mercedes and buy a Toyota for yourself and that old lady. If you already new to do that, you would not need to fast.

As for steps. I cannot disagree more. We have either been judged and passed God's judgement or we have not. There is ''one'' step. The criminal next to Jesus on the cross was not baptized.

Fasting simply crucifies or makes your flesh , human nature submit.

Why would God tell you to sell your Mercedes and buy a Toyota for you and the old lady?
She may like the mercedes.
So we need to have lesser things to be humble?

Brother poverty does not equal humility .
Blessings to you

Deal with our pride and have a love for others.
C'mon Jim. Red herring
Generally, yes. If you have a Ferrari, you can say you care about the old lady with a broken down ford, but nobody will believe you.

I did not mention poverty. But I will propose we should live at a certain poverty level. In a world where everyone is taken care of, that would not be needed. We are not in that world.

As an extreme example of my point, you need to consider those who died in concentration camps from starvation. When you are given a little bread, knowing it is not enough to keep you alive. But were you to give it to your child. Theirs and your portion will keep them alive. You not doing it is you not fulfilling the second commandment. Even if it is not your child, but rather your enemy.

Now, today we simply have no excuse. The excuses just get all the more hilarious. Google has empowered us to see all the needy.

While I didn't use the word "need" to fast, the availability to do so is another tool given by the grace of God for our enrichment.
No Christian brags about how long they have subjected the "skin" to a lack of comfort.

Perhaps He would have, but perhaps He would have shown me a way to help repair her car instead.
I can't speak to rhetorical examples.

Which step do you disagree with?
The turn from sin, (repentance), or the washing away of your past sins by the blood of Christ, (baptism)?
Do you feel that one with their old sins still clinging onto them will be judged worthy?
Do you feel that one who is still rebelling against God is worthy?

'rhetorical examples' like what if.... can and will lead us into all manner of rhetorical answers. Good laboratory stuff for those who are experimenting but will they help anyone to be yhey are born again .... or not?
At the same time, a rhetorical question can help immensely in opening up what we are trying to say and in themselves that are not bad and to be shunned.

My thoughts went to other departments, like, at least she can get to 'church'... what about those who don't own a car at all and can't get there... which led me to.... how many 'churches' do we drive past in order to get to the one we attend?
from there.... do you really want to know?

in all these replies, how can we shape them into some evidence of being born again? Is it possible?

What is, after all, being 'born again'?
I think most use it because that term is used. Not for any other reason but because it has become part of christianese. From what little i know, it is a term used twice in the New Testament (albeit, in English translation) when Jesus was talking to a Pharisee about seeing the Kingdom of God.
I did a study on this a few while ago's ago and was not all that convinced that 'our' liberal use of the term was spot on or anywhere near to it.

John Chapter 3
1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

However, for the context of this thread, (perhaps "Believing you are a Christian" might be better?), what is it that is a hallmark for us, a landmark for others and a sure testimony before God that we are?

In my wee experience in life, I have met many very kind folk who help others and in their own philantophic way are 'loving' others.
In all the major 'religions' they have the Golden Rule which is very similar to that of the Christian, about doing unto others... etc.

So, did the lady need a new car or have it fixed or was the Lord working a different work in her life? Only those who actually HAVE inclined their ears unto the Lord will know if they should do anything about her car or not.
This brings me to the inclining. Do we ever hear from the Lord? To me, that is a reassuring sign from Him that He is still there and I am still receiving from Him, his Word.

What do you all think to this?


Bless you ....><>

 

[At Peace]

Greetings all,
'rhetorical examples' like what if.... can and will lead us into all manner of rhetorical answers. Good laboratory stuff for those who are experimenting but will they help anyone to be yhey are born again .... or not?
At the same time, a rhetorical question can help immensely in opening up what we are trying to say and in themselves that are not bad and to be shunned.

I think I should have used the word "hypothetical" instead of "rhetorical".
English is my second language, (baby talk was my first), so I'm still learning.,

in all these replies, how can we shape them into some evidence of being born again? Is it possible?

However, for the context of this thread, (perhaps "Believing you are a Christian" might be better?), what is it that is a hallmark for us, a landmark for others and a sure testimony before God that we are?

"Born again" is a manifestation that the first "self" has been killed with Christ.
There can't be two of you/me.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Walking in the Spirit, instead of in the flesh, is the proof necessary to self-determine our rebirth.

 

[amadeus2]

I think I should have used the word "hypothetical" instead of "rhetorical".
English is my second language, (baby talk was my first), so I'm still learning.,

I also agree with you with regard to using 'hypothetical' rather than 'rhetorical', but hypothetical situations that people present to get their point across can troublesome when it comes to the things of God. In real situations things may or may not be so black and white as that to the eyes of a man. God, of course, always knows the correct answer to any question because He always knows all of the details on every side of a question. When a man uses a hypothetical example to make his point, he is presuming all of the facts, but in real situations only God knows all of the facts. For us to do a thing right for certain without knowing all of the facts we need to be following always the lead of the Holy Ghost.

Can we follow always the lead of the Holy Ghost if we are not "Born again"?

"Born again" is a manifestation that the first "self" has been killed with Christ.
There can't be two of you/me.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Walking in the Spirit, instead of in the flesh, is the proof necessary to self-determine our rebirth.

So then what is James saying here?

"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:8-10

They "ought not so to be", but apparently since he is writing to brethren they sometimes are anyway.

 

[At Peace]

I also agree with you with regard to using 'hypothetical' rather than 'rhetorical', but hypothetical situations that people present to get their point across can troublesome when it comes to the things of God. In real situations things may or may not be so black and white as that to the eyes of a man. God, of course, always knows the correct answer to any question because He always knows all of the details on every side of a question. When a man uses a hypothetical example to make his point, he is presuming all of the facts, but in real situations only God knows all of the facts. For us to do a thing right for certain without knowing all of the facts we need to be following always the lead of the Holy Ghost.

My usual encounters with "hypothetical" problems come from those who wish to justify a false pretense.

Can we follow always the lead of the Holy Ghost if we are not "Born again"?

No.

So then what is James saying here?

"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:8-10

In James 3, he is using the "too many cooks" analogy, illustrating the contrasting teachings of the "cooks".
Counter-teachings are the point of "salt and fresh water from the same spring", and "blessing and cursing from the same tongue".
Alleged beneficiaries of the gift of the Holy Ghost were teaching contradictory things.

They "ought not so to be", but apparently since he is writing to brethren they sometimes are anyway.

Those teaching against what the Spirit teaches were not brethren, and James made it clear for them to determine for themselves who was really in the faith.

Sometimes, it seems, that men will believe even the most vile person still has a connection to Christ.
Enemies of the faith were busy from the start, trying to destroy the "body of Christ".
Salt water and cursings make it easy for the man of God to turn from those posing as Christians..

 

[amadeus2]

My usual encounters with "hypothetical" problems come from those who wish to justify a false pretense.

Yes, that has often been my own experience but it may not always be so. The parables Jesus told could certainly be considered hypothetical. There might times when a teacher led by the Holy Ghost makes use of such as a teaching tool. Either way to properly receive and understand what another is teaching to telling us also requires the Holy Ghost working in us, as I see it.

No.

Quick short answer there with regard to the being led by the Holy Ghost. While I agree I must say that some people make me wonder by the direction they take what spirit it is they are following. Of course many people who claim to be born again are probably not and goodly number of them likely don't realize that they are not. This could where we find some people walking in delusions.

In James 3, he is using the "too many cooks" analogy, illustrating the contrasting teachings of the "cooks".
Counter-teachings are the point of "salt and fresh water from the same spring", and "blessing and cursing from the same tongue".
Alleged beneficiaries of the gift of the Holy Ghost were teaching contradictory things.


Those teaching against what the Spirit teaches were not brethren, and James made it clear for them to determine for themselves who was really in the faith.

Sometimes, it seems, that men will believe even the most vile person still has a connection to Christ.
Enemies of the faith were busy from the start, trying to destroy the "body of Christ".
Salt water and cursings make it easy for the man of God to turn from those posing as Christians..

Hmmm! Ok, but that has not been my own understanding of the verse I quoted. What I have understood is that when a person is in the Spirit then he speaks God's truth as it is written in his heart. When he is not in the Spirit, that is he is quenching the Holy Spirit in him, then it is something else other than God's Word coming out of His mouth. This to me is the double mindedness that must be avoided and done away with in believers. If the person is not already there and he continues on that double minded road he will eventually end up in the lukewarmness which John writes God will spit out of His mouth.

The example of double mindedness I have noted at times in person starts with a wonderful attitude while in a good church service followed by a condemnation and possibly even cussing only a few minutes later while driving home when cut off by a person without the legal right-of-way.