antimonianism

[papajim]

The word tells us there is no now righteous no not one ...when we pass from this flesh only then will I be found perfect in Christ ..to be absent from the body is to be present with God ...only then will I be able to stand before God or man as a whole soul ..every day His word tells us to take up our cross and follow Him...He knows we will face daily struggles in this body but there is hope ! For we have and advocate in Christ ..it does not give us licsence to stay as we are or pop in and out but it does give us the right to contend for the Faith ,reach for perfection in Christ and access to the power of God to assit us in becomg the image of Christ on Earth....if we dont show that perfection in faith to a hurting and lost world that there is hope in Christ what good are we?...thats what He showed us ! ....Rev

Rev T.S. Perkins I disagree with you here aside from Christ there is no righteousness, but with Christ in us we can achieve spiritual perfection in Christ.
I do not believe the text that says to be absent from the body is to present with the Lord is talking about dying and going to Heaven, it is talking about the flesh, our sinful nature. To be absent from our sinful nature is to be present with the Lord. The body is another word for the flesh, and this is consistant with the rest of Pauls writings.

 

[Eddy Fire]

Christ is righteousness,... but ... we can achieve spiritual perfection in Christ.

...I do not believe

what where who how when can WE achieved this?
not being narky but this is a bit worksish if ever there was one
as with a lot of the goings on here

too much I! I! I!

I! am righteous!
I1 am better!
I1 am above
I1 Can do all things because I! I! I!
please stop all this silly talk men

None is Righteous
all the high holy spiritual talk is boastings about things you have neither seen or heard

stop it men, in Jesus name

 

[brakelite]

Eddyfire. You misunderstand, or rather underestimate the importance of this discussion. We are talking about what Jesus has accomplished on our behalf at Calvary. What power is there in His shed blood. Some say we cannot stop sinning, others say we cannot sin at all, others say we can stop if we surrender to God's grace. We are not talking about works here. We are talking about what Christ is able (or not able depending on your point of view) to accomplish in your life. These are important questions, even challenges, and they demand answers. After all, either we accept the full gospel or someones half gospel, or someone elses wrong gospel. These issues must be discussed and settled. Whether we can or cannot or must not continue to sin with or without any consequences is an eternal issue which cannot be swept under the proverbial spiritual rug.

 

[papajim]

what where who how when can WE achieved this?
I1 None is Righteous
all the high holy spiritual talk is boastings about things you have neither seen or heard

stop it men, in Jesus name

That's the whole point Eddyfire, all of Christ and none of me. Only when we die to self, can Jesus live.
1Jn4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world."

 

[B-A-C]

That's the whole point Eddyfire, all of Christ and none of me. Only when we die to self, can Jesus live.

I totally agree, but would like to add...

1 Cor 15:31; I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Luke 9:23; And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Dying to "self" and denying ourselves is something that needs to be done everyday.

 

[Barny]

Imputed righteousness for our positional/judicial salvation (towards God), imparted righteousness for Christ's life expressed through us to the outside world (towards man). I believe there is an accelerated program of imparted righteousness if we do not achieve perfection in this life. 1 Cor 3:15 etc suggests we can suffer loss. 2 Tim 4:8 Paul would be rewarded with a crown of righteousness that is given only to those who are approved at the judgement seat of Christ. This is why Jesus said be careful about judging others because we are going to be judged at the judgement seat.

The "imparted righteousness" doctrine is an Adventist doctrine. Perhaps you can correct me if I misunderstand but from what I heard from Adventists I've spoken to, they judge others to be unrighteous and lost based on physical lifestyle/obedience to the law

 

[papajim]

The "imparted righteousness" doctrine is an Adventist doctrine. Perhaps you can correct me if I misunderstand but from what I heard from Adventists I've spoken to, they judge others to be unrighteous and lost based on physical lifestyle/obedience to the law

I have a real difficulty with anyone that judges. Love does not judge but the law judges. We are not to judge each other but uplift one another in righteousness.

 

[DHC]

DHC, I would like you to look at Romans 6 and tell me if you can see two ways of looking at this, don't be to quick to answer me, but meditate on it for a while. I can see it two ways, I see it your way and also another way, can you?
I suggest to you that both ways are correct.

Hello Papajim.


Thanks for the invitation to read (Romans 6).

The book of Romans is crammed with doctrine and is often
the most poorly understood letter in the entire Bible. Romans
is the pivotal letter for many theologies and an array of church
denominations.

You mentioned Papajim that you could read both your theology
and my theology in (Romans 6). I do not see your theology at all
Papajim, in context Paul is speaking to his brothers from Israel.
Which is proven by consulting (Romans 9, 10, 11).

This is the key to understanding Romans.

Paul is directly addressing the Jews who fled Israel in AD70.
They had infiltrated the Roman church and infected the
Gentiles with the Law of Moses.

So reluctantly I will quote the important verses from (Romans 6)

Romans 6

14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law
but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?
May it never be!

22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God,
you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the
outcome, eternal life.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is a pivotal line in chapter 6.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?
May it never be!

Simply the question is and rightly so, since I have been clothed
in the righteousness of Christ. Does it matter now whether I sin
or not? I have been forgiven, justified, sanctified, what does it
matter if I sin? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

We are no longer under the juristiction of the law so we can do
what we wish? This is the question that has been asked.

Since the acceptance of the Gospel clearly means that we
have died with Christ. We no longer live a selfish life, no
longer a life filled with satisfying our desires. Our life is
Christ centered, Holy Spirit filled, a new creation designed
for love. Actually love is the debt we owe to Christ.

A New Covenant has been established by Jesus Christ,
a covenant sealed by His blood.

We died with Christ and daily we die to our flesh that Christ
lives within us to fully execute His will. That we believe in
Jesus to the day we die, and that we love others.

Anyone disagree?

 

[Barny]

Hi papajim,

I see in your post #200 that you too have difficulty with posting on this forum.
Whilst TalkJesus is an interesting forum I find sometimes my posts get lost and it also takes a long time to open a page. I have been on other forums as well but find this one to be more problematic to post on.

I'll respond to your post #200 quoting parts of it in green below, as it was not possible to simply click "reply with quote"

You said regarding the thief on the cross:
" Christ righteousness was imputed to Him, he believed and was saved. However if he had come down from the cross he also would have been a changed man, for the same reason when you excepted Christ you became a changed man, and I hope you are still changing into the fullness of Christ. In what you believe there is no point in spiritual growth.

Barny we are going in circles here. My point is there is two ways to look at the gospel and both sides are correct. We are righteous by faith and we become righteous through faith. Every scripture you use to make your point I can also use to make my point, I believe that we are fighting one truth against the other. Unfortunatly you only see this one way, when I see it both ways. Please be open minded Barny. If we ARE freed from sin we are also freed from sinning, the two are together. Jesus freed us from sin alltogether so if we still sin it is through unbelief, Faith is a process as I have already said, but the gift is instant. The problem lies within us.

What you seem to be missing is that righteousness is perfect obedience to the law. Any believer (including the thief on the cross) will not have this perfection in the physical.
And partial obedience to the law is not keeping the law. Partial obedience is not righteousness. James 2:10; shows that perfect obedience is required or else your guilty of all the law.

So with this in mind we can see that we do not "become righteous by faith" in terms of physical behavior.
I have spoken to many who follow doctrines similar to what you do and none of them have ever "become righteous" in their physical behavior. They all speak in terms of one day in the future, by faith, I will be in perfect obedience to the law in this physical life.

I had said the following:
"If Christians are righteous in Christ then that means we're not sinners. And remember anyone who does sin is a "servant of sin," John 8:34; and "of the devil," 1 John 3:8"

You replied:
"I agree so then why do we sin?"

What you are missing is that our body is dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. So then why would we then judge our righteousness (whether we sin or not) based on works of the law?
Note Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:

And how do we make ourselves a sinner?
We turn back to works of the law for righteousness.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness through works of the law), I make myself a transgressor. (Sinner)

Believers are not under the law. Rom 8:2; Rom 10:4; Gal 5:18; 1Tim 1:9.
So how can anyone accuse a believer of transgression of the law/sin when we're not under it?
God has justified us so "who can lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?" Rom 8:33
Our righteousness is by faith instead.

The doctrine you follow is a mix of grace with works of the law. This cannot be.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


I quoted the following scripture:
1 John 5:4-5
For whatever is born of God (1 John 5:1 overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
You replied:
and if we are without sin already then why do we need to overcome? Jesus freed us from sin and we still sin does that mean we don't believe? sure it does.

Believers overcame the world with it's lusts to rebel against God through establishing it's own righteousness through dead works (sin).
Believers have submitted to God's righteousness. God has justified us. So then why are you still accusing believers of transgression of the law/sin when our faith is counted for righteousness? Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4

You said:
"Sure it does, because faith is a process that overcomes bad physical behavior.
If you are still sinning then it is a process , because you don't believe you are without sin."

I agree that faith is a process. But, scripture speaks of this as a testing of our faith James 1,; and not as a "process "ofgradually improving in physical behavior until one day in the future we will be perfect in obedience to the law in this physical life (which nobody ever attains anyway).

 

[james1523]

The "imparted righteousness" doctrine is an Adventist doctrine. Perhaps you can correct me if I misunderstand but from what I heard from Adventists I've spoken to, they judge others to be unrighteous and lost based on physical lifestyle/obedience to the law

It's Wesleyan doctrine. It's how we partake of the Divine nature and is related to our sanctification. Not to be confused with the works doctrine of infused righteousness, which is a Roman Catholic doctrine.

If you don't believe in imparted righteousness, are you telling me that if Christ who is the righteous one dwells in us.. then His righteousness does not affect or change us whatsoever? That at the end of your life.. you are in the same state as you were when you were first saved?

 

[Barny]

It's Wesleyan doctrine. It's how we partake of the Divine nature and is related to our sanctification. Not to be confused with the works doctrine of infused righteousness, which is a Roman Catholic doctrine.

If you don't believe in imparted righteousness, are you telling me that if Christ who is the righteous one dwells in us.. then His righteousness does not affect or change us whatsoever? That at the end of your life.. you are in the same state as you were when you were first saved?

I don't believe in "imparted righteousness" as it's not in scripture. And what "imparted righteous" implies is perfect obedience to the law in this our physical lives.

As your focus is only on physical behavior I will add that I do believe a Christian will often display improvement in behavior as they grow.
And this will vary for each person due to our unique circumstances. But we will never see perfection in the physical.

Getting back to "imparted righteousness", it's a doctrine that subtly mixes grace with works of the law. It's proponents proclaim we're saved by grace, but then they argue that works of the law is the demonstrated proof one is abiding in Christ. And of course this then leads to the conclusion that anyone who does not have this proof of obedience to the law in their lives, is lost.

Interestingly some followers of such doctrines argue that perfect obedience to the law is required as proof, and profess that one day in the future they will attain this, in the physical, by faith.
And then others claim some unknown minimum standard of obedience is required.
Niether of these views are supported in scripture.
And both of these views are mixing grace with works of the law.

In answer to your question about what state we're in at the end of our life, I would hope that Christians endure to the end believing in Jesus. That they would not turn back to righteousness by works of the law, thus making themselves sinners, Gal 2:18.
And whilst for many, their physical lifestyle improves as their faith grows, such believers will know that their physical works are not what determines whether they are righteous or not. A true believer knows that their faith is counted for righteousness, hence they will not be lured into spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law.

 

[james1523]

I don't believe in "imparted righteousness" as it's not in scripture. And what "imparted righteous" implies is perfect obedience to the law in this our physical lives.

As your focus is only on physical behavior I will add that I do believe a Christian will often display improvement in behavior as they grow.
And this will vary for each person due to our unique circumstances. But we will never see perfection in the physical.

Getting back to "imparted righteousness", it's a doctrine that subtly mixes grace with works of the law. It's proponents proclaim we're saved by grace, but then they argue that works of the law is the demonstrated proof one is abiding in Christ. And of course this then leads to the conclusion that anyone who does not have this proof of obedience to the law in their lives, is lost.

Interestingly some followers of such doctrines argue that perfect obedience to the law is required as proof, and profess that one day in the future they will attain this, in the physical, by faith.
And then others claim some unknown minimum standard of obedience is required.
Niether of these views are supported in scripture.
And both of these views are mixing grace with works of the law.

In answer to your question about what state we're in at the end of our life, I would hope that Christians endure to the end believing in Jesus. That they would not turn back to righteousness by works of the law, thus making themselves sinners, Gal 2:18.
And whilst for many, their physical lifestyle improves as their faith grows, such believers will know that their physical works are not what determines whether they are righteous or not. A true believer knows that their faith is counted for righteousness, hence they will not be lured into spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law.

Yes, the doctrine of imparted righteousness is also proved by our experience re: "I do believe a Christian will often display improvement in behavior as they grow"

re: faith and works..you have described the Catholic doctrine of infused righteousness, they are two completely different things.
If you do not believe in imparted righteousness you must not believe in Christ's dwelling within the believer to bring them to maturity. If Christ the righteous one dwells in you, what do you think he imparts ? unrighteousness?
If there is no outward proof of Christ dwelling within a person then Christ must not be living within them.
Perhaps you have ignored the many and varied scriptures about the outward acts or signs of fruit which are shown in a genuine believer's life.

 

[DHC]

If there is no outward proof of Christ dwelling within a person then Christ must not be living within them.
Perhaps you have ignored the many and varied scriptures about the outward acts or signs of fruit which are shown in a genuine believer's life.

Not sure that what you wrote is correct James.

No outward signs, no fruit of the Spirit, does not necessarily
imply that the Holy Spirit is not present. The garden may
need some tender care James.

Ultimately James, the main sign is love from a pure heart.

This is the goal of the Christian instruction, without love
we are stone, cold, dead. God is love and displayed the power
of His pure love towards us in Christ at calvary.

 

[Barny]

Yes, the doctrine of imparted righteousness is also proved by our experience re: "I do believe a Christian will often display improvement in behavior as they grow"

re: faith and works..you have described the Catholic doctrine of infused righteousness, they are two completely different things.
If you do not believe in imparted righteousness you must not believe in Christ's dwelling within the believer to bring them to maturity. If Christ the righteous one dwells in you, what do you think he imparts ? unrighteousness?
If there is no outward proof of Christ dwelling within a person then Christ must not be living within them.
Perhaps you have ignored the many and varied scriptures about the outward acts or signs of fruit which are shown in a genuine believer's life.

I'm an ex-Catholic myself, but that was long, long ago. And being the typical Catholic I knew little of Catholic doctrine anyway. Having said that, the little I did know does not correspond with what you describe of "infused righteousness". I've never even heard such a term before.

However "imparted righteousness" is a term I am familiar with due to discussions with Adventists. And Adventists conclude that people are lost without the evidence of "imparted righteousness" (obedience to the law) in their lives.

Are you an Adventist?
You said "If there is no outward proof of Christ dwelling within a person then Christ must not be living within them."
This is consistent with what I have heard from Adventists.

By the way, the proof we should be seeking in another is that they believe in Jesus. Afterall this is the gospel, its God's will for us (John 6:40 and it's the works that shows our faith (John 6:29. If they believe in Jesus then they have Christ the firstfruits. And this is the fruit by which you shall know another believer.

I'm curious what amount of evidence you expect to see of "imparted righteousness". Is it perfect obedience to the law or is it trying to obey the law to an acceptable level? If have seen both these beliefs hence I'm assuming your following one of these.

 

[james1523]

I'm an ex-Catholic myself, but that was long, long ago. And being the typical Catholic I knew little of Catholic doctrine anyway. Having said that, the little I did know does not correspond with what you describe of "infused righteousness". I've never even heard such a term before.

However "imparted righteousness" is a term I am familiar with due to discussions with Adventists. And Adventists conclude that people are lost without the evidence of "imparted righteousness" (obedience to the law) in their lives.

Are you an Adventist?
You said "If there is no outward proof of Christ dwelling within a person then Christ must not be living within them."
This is consistent with what I have heard from Adventists.

By the way, the proof we should be seeking in another is that they believe in Jesus. Afterall this is the gospel, its God's will for us (John 6:40 and it's the works that shows our faith (John 6:29. If they believe in Jesus then they have Christ the firstfruits. And this is the fruit by which you shall know another believer.

I'm curious what amount of evidence you expect to see of "imparted righteousness". Is it perfect obedience to the law or is it trying to obey the law to an acceptable level? If have seen both these beliefs hence I'm assuming your following one of these.

Infused righteousness is the Catholic doctrine of justification. It says by keeping Christ's commands, receiving the sacraments and regular confession and penance etc.. God's righteousness is infused into believers over time.. and it is on this basis they are righteous before God.

Google search 'imparted righteousness', you can read more about it there, it is not an Adventist doctrine exclusively, it is a Protestant doctrine.

I agree the proof we seek is that they believe in Jesus. And what is the proof? The works and the fruit. We cannot see into another person's mind Barny, we cannot see belief unless we see the outward actions.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of imparted righteousness. It has nothing to do with the law of Moses and everything to do with the Person of Christ. When Christ lives within a person, His righteousness will change that person's life. It will be seen in their speech, their actions, their leisure activities, who they keep company with etc. If Christ within you is directing your living by His righteousness, then that is His righteousness imparted into your being and directing your life. The imputed and the imparted righteousness go hand in hand , one cannot exist without the other. Imparted righteousness is all about His righteousness and His doing not our own. This is where the infused righteousness (Catholic) and imparted righteousness (Protestant) differs... the Catholic view of righteousness is the improvement of the self and the flesh which God has already rejected.. the Protestant view is Christ's righteousness lived and expressed through us, nothing of ourselves but all of Christ.

 

[james1523]

Not sure that what you wrote is correct James.

No outward signs, no fruit of the Spirit, does not necessarily
imply that the Holy Spirit is not present. The garden may
need some tender care James.

Ultimately James, the main sign is love from a pure heart.

This is the goal of the Christian instruction, without love
we are stone, cold, dead. God is love and displayed the power
of His pure love towards us in Christ at calvary.

Hmm a little contradiction there. You said no fruit does not mean the Spirit is not present.. yet you say the main sign is love. But love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit there can be no love. And if the fruit of love is present, then all the other fruit are present also.
If the Holy Spirit lives in person.. from the very first second of salvation, that person will display the fruit. The fruit does not take time to grow, it is already present. To say that the fruit grows.. is to say that the Holy Spirit grows, because they are His fruit, not ours.. but the Spirit does not grow in us, He is already whole complete and perfect within us.
At salvation a person normally experiences love, peace, acceptance, joy.. all these things.. these are signs the Spirit is present. To say otherwise is to say that the Holy Spirit is not a Spirit of power, and that His presence does not change lives.

 

[papajim]

I don't believe in "imparted righteousness" as it's not in scripture. And what "imparted righteous" implies is perfect obedience to the law in this our physical lives.

As your focus is only on physical behavior I will add that I do believe a Christian will often display improvement in behavior as they grow.
And this will vary for each person due to our unique circumstances. But we will never see perfection in the physical.

Getting back to "imparted righteousness", it's a doctrine that subtly mixes grace with works of the law. It's proponents proclaim we're saved by grace, but then they argue that works of the law is the demonstrated proof one is abiding in Christ. And of course this then leads to the conclusion that anyone who does not have this proof of obedience to the law in their lives, is lost.

Interestingly some followers of such doctrines argue that perfect obedience to the law is required as proof, and profess that one day in the future they will attain this, in the physical, by faith.
And then others claim some unknown minimum standard of obedience is required.
Niether of these views are supported in scripture.
And both of these views are mixing grace with works of the law.

In answer to your question about what state we're in at the end of our life, I would hope that Christians endure to the end believing in Jesus. That they would not turn back to righteousness by works of the law, thus making themselves sinners, Gal 2:18.
And whilst for many, their physical lifestyle improves as their faith grows, such believers will know that their physical works are not what determines whether they are righteous or not. A true believer knows that their faith is counted for righteousness, hence they will not be lured into spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law.

Barny we see a contridiction in your statement here, and the life of Jesus. When Jesus was here He was full of the grace of God and also kept the law perfectly through faith and His relationship with His father. When Jesus is in us we also will be filled with the grace of God and keep the law perfectly through faith and our relationship with our father. Jesus obtained the righteousness of God in the physical, and we are to obtain the righteousness of God in the physical, because it is Christ in us. Remember we are dead, and Christ is now alive doing in us who He is, the righteousness of God.

 

[papajim]

Hello Papajim.


Thanks for the invitation to read (Romans 6).

The book of Romans is crammed with doctrine and is often
the most poorly understood letter in the entire Bible. Romans
is the pivotal letter for many theologies and an array of church
denominations.

You mentioned Papajim that you could read both your theology
and my theology in (Romans 6). I do not see your theology at all
Papajim, in context Paul is speaking to his brothers from Israel.
Which is proven by consulting (Romans 9, 10, 11).

This is the key to understanding Romans.

Paul is directly addressing the Jews who fled Israel in AD70.
They had infiltrated the Roman church and infected the
Gentiles with the Law of Moses.

So reluctantly I will quote the important verses from (Romans 6)

Romans 6

14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law
but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?
May it never be!

22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God,
you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the
outcome, eternal life.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is a pivotal line in chapter 6.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?
May it never be!

Simply the question is and rightly so, since I have been clothed
in the righteousness of Christ. Does it matter now whether I sin
or not? I have been forgiven, justified, sanctified, what does it
matter if I sin? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

We are no longer under the juristiction of the law so we can do
what we wish? This is the question that has been asked.

Since the acceptance of the Gospel clearly means that we
have died with Christ. We no longer live a selfish life, no
longer a life filled with satisfying our desires. Our life is
Christ centered, Holy Spirit filled, a new creation designed
for love. Actually love is the debt we owe to Christ.

A New Covenant has been established by Jesus Christ,
a covenant sealed by His blood.

We died with Christ and daily we die to our flesh that Christ
lives within us to fully execute His will. That we believe in
Jesus to the day we die, and that we love others.

Anyone disagree?

Thank you DHC for responding,
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
(Paraphrased ) Really? shall we continue to sin, that grace may abound? I believe that continuing in sin and sinning are the same thing.
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin live any longer therin? If we are dead to sin how shall we continue to sin any more.
3.Know ye not, that so many of us as were babtized into Jesus Christ, were babtized into His death? Don't you know? here is a good question, it signifies knowledge. It was our sinfull flesh that was crucified in Christ, sin is of the flesh, the flesh is dead, in Christ. That part of us that wants to sin is dead only in Christ apart from Christ it continues to sin.
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Our sinful nature is buried with Him that nature that wants to sin. That like Christ we are raised from the dead, again our sinful nature is dead in Christ if it is dead it cannot sin. If we sin we are saying that it is not dead and we are filled with unbelief. When we are raised with Him we are raised a new man our old ways are gone and we are a new man. The man that sins is dead and a new man that does righteousness is born. Notice that Paul uses the word "should" Walk in the newness of life. (physical behavior.)
5. repeats 4
6.Knowing this, (Good way to start this verse) that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Those that serve sin are the slaves of sin, but in Christ we no longer serve sin for we are dead to it, if we are dead to it we no longer indulge in it. (Physical behavior.)
7. For he that is dead is freed from sin. It is no longer part of our lives, we are apart from it, no longer participating in it. We are free. I ike the way verse 14 puts it "For sin shall not have dominion over you". Sin no longer has power over us it is dead to us for ye are not under the law. Only those that sin are under the law, we are free from sin so the law can no longer condemn us. We are back to the first two word of verse 6 "Knowing this" We have to know and understand what Paul is saying here, to live this message. For ye are not under the law but under grace. Finally we are free from sin, sin is the sting of death, the law comdemns sin, and grace has freed us from sin, and the comdemdation of the law.

Let me add here, that the law of God which is the part of the law written with God's own hand, is not to be confused with the Mosaic law which was written by Moses.
God is love which you already understand, I suggest to you that the law points only to those who are unloving, and only those that are unloving are under the law. Love Is God's righteousness if this is true then unloving is unrighteousness. The law can only comdemn that which is unrighteousness and unloving. That is why it says "thou shall not" The law is made up into parts and each part has a set of laws so we can understand sin (unloving). The first four is how we relate to God in love and the last six are how we relate to one another in love. Love is the fulfilling of the law so there is no law against love, the law is against only those who are unloving through lust.

 

[papajim]

Hi papajim,

I see in your post #200 that you too have difficulty with posting on this forum.
Whilst TalkJesus is an interesting forum I find sometimes my posts get lost and it also takes a long time to open a page. I have been on other forums as well but find this one to be more problematic to post on.

I'll respond to your post #200 quoting parts of it in green below, as it was not possible to simply click "reply with quote"

You said regarding the thief on the cross:
" Christ righteousness was imputed to Him, he believed and was saved. However if he had come down from the cross he also would have been a changed man, for the same reason when you excepted Christ you became a changed man, and I hope you are still changing into the fullness of Christ. In what you believe there is no point in spiritual growth.

Barny we are going in circles here. My point is there is two ways to look at the gospel and both sides are correct. We are righteous by faith and we become righteous through faith. Every scripture you use to make your point I can also use to make my point, I believe that we are fighting one truth against the other. Unfortunatly you only see this one way, when I see it both ways. Please be open minded Barny. If we ARE freed from sin we are also freed from sinning, the two are together. Jesus freed us from sin alltogether so if we still sin it is through unbelief, Faith is a process as I have already said, but the gift is instant. The problem lies within us.

What you seem to be missing is that righteousness is perfect obedience to the law. Any believer (including the thief on the cross) will not have this perfection in the physical.
And partial obedience to the law is not keeping the law. Partial obedience is not righteousness. James 2:10; shows that perfect obedience is required or else your guilty of all the law.

So with this in mind we can see that we do not "become righteous by faith" in terms of physical behavior.
I have spoken to many who follow doctrines similar to what you do and none of them have ever "become righteous" in their physical behavior. They all speak in terms of one day in the future, by faith, I will be in perfect obedience to the law in this physical life.

I had said the following:
"If Christians are righteous in Christ then that means we're not sinners. And remember anyone who does sin is a "servant of sin," John 8:34; and "of the devil," 1 John 3:8"

You replied:
"I agree so then why do we sin?"

What you are missing is that our body is dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. So then why would we then judge our righteousness (whether we sin or not) based on works of the law?
Note Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:

And how do we make ourselves a sinner?
We turn back to works of the law for righteousness.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness through works of the law), I make myself a transgressor. (Sinner)

Believers are not under the law. Rom 8:2; Rom 10:4; Gal 5:18; 1Tim 1:9.
So how can anyone accuse a believer of transgression of the law/sin when we're not under it?
God has justified us so "who can lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?" Rom 8:33
Our righteousness is by faith instead.

The doctrine you follow is a mix of grace with works of the law. This cannot be.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


I quoted the following scripture:
1 John 5:4-5
For whatever is born of God (1 John 5:1 overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
You replied:
and if we are without sin already then why do we need to overcome? Jesus freed us from sin and we still sin does that mean we don't believe? sure it does.

Believers overcame the world with it's lusts to rebel against God through establishing it's own righteousness through dead works (sin).
Believers have submitted to God's righteousness. God has justified us. So then why are you still accusing believers of transgression of the law/sin when our faith is counted for righteousness? Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4

You said:
"Sure it does, because faith is a process that overcomes bad physical behavior.
If you are still sinning then it is a process , because you don't believe you are without sin."

I agree that faith is a process. But, scripture speaks of this as a testing of our faith James 1,; and not as a "process "ofgradually improving in physical behavior until one day in the future we will be perfect in obedience to the law in this physical life (which nobody ever attains anyway).

Thank you Barny, you truly are a master with this site.

 

[B-A-C]

[ Copied from The Abuse of Grace Thread]

Good to hear that your not speaking of Antimonianism.

And just to clarify, we so called "Antimonianists", that some label we believers as, do not simply say "we have no sin". Instead we say that we abide in Christ (believing in him) and therefore our position in Christ is that "we have no sin". Our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5; ) instead of by works of the law.

Our faith. What is faith? Is is simply saying I believe in something. I believe the answer is yes, or I believe the answer is no. Do you believe in the words "yes and "no" or do you believe in the answer?
There are people who say, "I believe in Jesus". What Jesus? Some believe in a Jesus from the planet Kolob, some believe in a Jesus who had a sinless mother and a grandmother named Anne,
some believe in a Jesus who is not God, some believe in a Jesus who was only a prophet, and some.... believe in the word Jesus like they believe in the words "yes or "no".
To really believe in Jesus, is to believe in the things Jesus believed in. To acts like Jesus, to walk like Jesus, to love like Jesus, to follow his teachings, to become a servant like Jesus, are some of
the things you do if you really "believe" in Jesus. Otherwise it's kind of like saying I believe the Dallas Cowboys is the best football team, but I'll wear Green Bay Packers clothing, root for the Patriots,
and go to all the Ravens games, even though I live in Dallas. Faith isn't just what you say, it's what you do.

You quoted Rom 4:5; above.
Four verses later it gives an example of this.
Rom 4:9; Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

What was the faith that was credited to Abraham? Was it merely saying he believed? Or was it something he did that proved his faith when it was tested?
Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21; Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22; You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was proven;
Jas 2:23; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Jude 1:3; Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

"the faith", not "a faith" what is the difference? A faith is believing in anything about anyone. 'The faith' is about believing in Jesus and all he stood for. Obeying the commandments, loving people, serving people, praying for people, and even denying himself (to the point of death on a cross) to save people. If we aren't denying ourselves, and putting other people first, loving them and serving them, we aren't
really believing in Jesus. We are just saying we do. Kind of like saying we believe in the Dallas Cowboys.

Back to Jude above.
Jude 1:8; Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
Jude 1:12; These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
Jude 1:16; These men are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
Jude 1:17; But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Jude 1:18; that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."

Notice all the verses say "these men" (who are opposed to 'the faith') are people who don't follow the teachings of Jesus, only "caring for themselves", and "following after their own ungodly lusts".

If you're following yourself, you aren't following Jesus, no matter who's football jersey you're wearing.

1 Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

If your faith is only what you say, it isn't faith at all.