antimonianism

[Eddy Fire]

God will never leave or forsake us and marriage is supposed to be a physical representation of Christ and the church.

Like getting thrown out of church?
I remember the Charismatic movement of the 70's and the first Christians to speak in tongues were not well received.

mescratchumheadumagainum?
polygoorainic for: what does all this mean, please?

something tells me elsewhere too that there seems to be a possibility for 'Christians' to sin?

can you please tell me/us where the first line:
God will never leave or forsake us and marriage is supposed to be a physical representation of Christ and the church.
is in Scripture, my friend?
perhaps not here but at one point it would be interesting for it doesn't appear to be in the Scriptures. I think it might have mentioned a passing shadow or something? Don't want to tread on anyone's holy toes so please all be gentle with me.

and the bit about tongues? don't see this as Scriptural at all and even if that doesn't matter, it tends to prove that something was amiss and therefore not in liberty and righteousness?

don't want to argue with you
reap together and help each other is a love thing

 

[Eddy Fire]

believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
....
As Jesus himself said, our works are to believe in him, John 6:29
And believers keep his commandments, 1John 3:22,23
......
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
....
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
....
Believe in Jesus, .

best advice

believe!
what does it mean?
and do we believe about or in?

I think maybe you and B-A-C might get a little closer with the second part of the summary of the 'ten commandments' where Jesus said, "and love one another, as He gave us commandment. "
it is this LOVE part that is a doing part which somehow implies a possibility of being able to not do it too?
would disobeying Jesus on this most holy commandment constitute sin?

how do we labour if we already are saved and sinless? and if we don't? is that sin? can a Christian do something like that?
if they did how would it be in their heart, mind and motive and could that constitute or involve sin at all?

anyway, let's get back to the love one another part and the believing!
it is best and covers a multitude of sin!

 

[james1523]

Two trees in the Garden of Eden.. tree of life... and tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you're living according to your sense of right versus wrong, good versus bad.. light versus darkness.. whether it's Moses's law, Sharia Law, Confucious, Buddhism, or ethics and morality, from the good side of your human nature, you've doing it wrong.

The law of the orange tree is like this.. when you plant an orange seed in the ground.. and you water it (nourish it) .. and the sun comes down on it (some trials, tough times).. that little seed will grow into a young plant, and then a bigger plant,, eventually grow into a big tree and will produce orange fruit.

The Law of the Spirit of life is like this.. when God put His seed in you, and you water it, and trials test it.. it will grow and produce the fruit of life.. the nature and character of Christ...the fruit of the Spirit.

This is the difference between law of letters and law of Spirit. Letters you will try to keep by using the good side of your human nature..you will find it difficult and then find yourself in a pattern of 'try hard... fall.. sin.. repent, confess... try hard.. fall.. sin... repent.. confess' Law of Spirit you don't have to keep it or try too hard, it's a work of Christ just cooperate with His Spirit... don't quench Him He will do the work.

Most of us are still arguing according to the tree of knowledge of right versus wrong, the law of letters not law of Spirit.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

can you please tell me/us where the first line:
God will never leave or forsake us and marriage is supposed to be a physical representation of Christ and the church.
is in Scripture, my friend?
perhaps not here but at one point it would be interesting for it doesn't appear to be in the Scriptures. I think it might have mentioned a passing shadow or something?

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral
Hebrews 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
Ephesians 5:31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."
Ephesians 5:32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church.

I don't think it is that difficult to make the connections,if you don't see it perhaps that's where the mystery part comes in.

and the bit about tongues? don't see this as Scriptural at all and even if that doesn't matter, it tends to prove that something was amiss and therefore not in liberty and righteousness?

I was responding to this:

I totally agree. But claiming you have the Holy Spirit is one thing. If the Spirit is in you, there will be evidence.

John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.

Charismatic movement of the 70's was a movement that emphasized the baptism of the Holy Spirit which in the U.S had almost completely disappeared.Many mainstream denominations came down hard against it.
Your right it doesn't matter the point is the truth is often resisted by those who claim to posses it.
The Pharisees attitude toward Jesus's would be a scriptural example.

don't want to argue with you

Don't want to tread on anyone's holy toes so please all be gentle with me.

Do you have a reason to believe that I want to argue?
In all love brother I feel I should tell you that if I was easily offended those kinds of things might bother me because it comes across as a little demeaning.However I am not easily offended so no foul

 

[DHC]

What we define as sin doesn't matter. What God defines as sin is what matters.
Jesus said don't murder. ( Matt 5:21; )
Jesus said don't call anyone a fool or a good for nothing ( Matt 5:22; )
Jesus said commit adultery (Matt 5:27
Jesus said don't even lust after a married woman ( Matt 5:28; )
Jesus said don't get divorced for any reason except unfaithfulness ( Matt 5:31-32; )
Jesus said don't make false vows or false promises ( Matt 5:33-37; )
Jesus said love your neighbors and your enemies ( Matt 5:43-44; Matt 19:19; )
Jesus said forgive others of the wrongs they have done against you, or else God won't forgive you of the wrongs you do ( Matt 6:14-15; )
Jesus said bear good fruit ( Matt 7:17-20; )
Jesus said honor your father and mother ( Matt 15:4; )
Jesus said don't steal or lie ( Mark 10:19; )
There are many other things Jesus said to do and not to do. But I think this list is sufficient.

Disobedience to God is sin. Jesus is God. Disobedience to Jesus is disobedience to God.
We can call something a sin or not a sin all we want to. It doesn't matter what we call it.
We aren't the ones who define what a sin is or isn't.

Hello B-A-C.

Have been reading your posts and I am curious as to the bias you exhibit
towards the commandments.

I noticed your list was a partial list, there are many other commands in the Old Testament
and in the New Testament. There does appear to be a problem however with this approach.
Which laws are to be obeyed and which laws are ignored.

For example, Jesus said "don't make false vows or false promises" ( Matt 5:33-37; ).
This is not one of the Ten Commandments, so in effect the entire Mosaic Law system
would need to be adhered to, otherwise sin is crouching at the door.

Obviously, there are many more commandments than just the famous Ten Commandments.
If you wish to correlate disobedience to the Mosaic law then you would also need to consider
the entire legal system across multiple covenants.

So the question is B-A-C what are the commandments that you believe you must follow.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

@DHC

Obviously, there are many more commandments than just the famous Ten Commandments.
If you wish to correlate disobedience to the Mosaic law then you would also need to consider
the entire legal system across multiple covenants.

Good point and lets not forget that Jesus gave some new commands for this new covenant such as, there was previously no requirement to pray for,bless or love your enemies.

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Jesus also tossed out the provision for divorce given by Moses and said remarriage after divorce is adultery.
He also told us to overcome evil with good which a fairly new and somewhat shocking command.
There are more but I think these show enough contrast between covenants.

 

[Barny]

1 Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

John 13:34; A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 15:12; This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:17; These things I command you, that ye love one another.

We agree here.
And love forgives 7x70.
Just as God loves us and forgive us we likewise love one another and forgive.
Hence there is no judging one another whether they are saved based on how good their behavior or obedience to the law is.

As our faith is counted for righteousness then we should see Christ in each other, just as God sees Christ in us.
And any Christian who does wrong in behavior, God will discipline them. But their wrong behavior is not what determines their righteousness. If it did then nobody would be saved.

 

[Barny]

best advice

believe!
what does it mean?
and do we believe about or in?

I think maybe you and B-A-C might get a little closer with the second part of the summary of the 'ten commandments' where Jesus said, "and love one another, as He gave us commandment. "
it is this LOVE part that is a doing part which somehow implies a possibility of being able to not do it too?
would disobeying Jesus on this most holy commandment constitute sin?

If we didn't love one another then we would not forgive them 7x70. Instead we would judge them to be unrighteous/lost based on works of the law. This is the sin of unbelief in Jesus as judging by works of the law is rejecting righteousness by faith.

how do we labour if we already are saved and sinless? and if we don't? is that sin? can a Christian do something like that?
if they did how would it be in their heart, mind and motive and could that constitute or involve sin at all?

anyway, let's get back to the love one another part and the believing!
it is best and covers a multitude of sin!

We labor in our works of believing in Jesus, as Jesus defined in John 6:29.
And in believing in Jesus we are imputed with righteousness. This means we are without sin.
Being righteous in Christ, nobody, not even Satan the accuser, can charge believers with sin, Rom 8:33.
And as for that imperfect physical body, that is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. It was crucified with Christ on the cross, Rom 6:6. Hence we don't judge our righteousness by it's behavior. If we did then we'd all be lost.

 

[papajim]

I have re-posted your earlier post to seek clarification where I misunderstood you.


.



Please correct me if I misunderstand you here, but it seems that your saying that obedience to the law/10 commandments is proof that we are righteous. You seem to be suggesting that Christians should be living their physical lifestyle in complete perfection in obedience to the law.

No it is not proof that we are righteousness, it is proof that we believe that we are righteousness.

Hello Barny, I have a little story for you so that you and I can agree that we cannot recieve salvation through the works of the law.

A gambler gambles away all that he has and far more, to where his debt is a trillion dollars now the man he owes wants to be paid, but the gambler does not have that kind of money and has never seen that kind of money. So the man he owes seeks to take his life. Another man sees the situation and has compassion on the gambler. He just happens to have a trillion dollars, but it is all he has, but this kind man has such love and pity for the gambler he pays off his dept in full. The gambler has a job making 10 dollars and hour and he is working at his job. The kind man comes to the job where the man is working and says I have paid your dept for you. The gambler dosen't even look up at the kind man and continues to work to pay off his dept. Now the gambler can never pay his dept at ten dollars and hour it is way to high to ever pay in his lifetime but yet he continues to work. Would this not be also insulting to the kind man?

So for now on from this post if I mention the law it is not by works for I percieve this would be insulting to Christ.

That being said I would like to continue from the context of my last post if you agree.

We both agree that you cannot sin in Christ, we disagree in what that means. If I am in Christ I am freed from sin so, I must first seperate myself from Christ to commit sin, the actual sin is the seperation, sinning is the effect of the seperation.
You have used 1Jn3:9 many times and that is where I will start. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Now if I am in Christ and there is no sin in Christ then I cannot sin. So if I sin I cannot be in Christ. Let me continue. John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou Father, art in me, and I in thee", Here you see the Father and Son are one, as there is no sin in the Father, and Christ is one with the Father Jesus could not sin. "and that they also may be one in us:" Here we see that the relationship that the Father had with the Son, where Jesus could not sin, is the same relationship we have as being one with the Father in Christ, so that we cannot sin. Only when we are one with the Father and the Son we will cease to sin. Only when we depart from being one with the Father and the Son can we commit an act of sin. An act of sin is transgression of the law 1Jn3:4. Looking at 1Jn 3:9 should be brougt into a whole new light in this context. I believe John is telling us what we are to become through a fantastic relationship with the Father and the Son so that ALL sin can and will be overcome "in Christ"

 

[DHC]

Ephesians 2
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place
of the two, so making peace,
16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows in to a holy temple in the Lord.
22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

I would be interested in how different folk read the verses above.

1) What was the dividing wall of hostility (line 14)?
2) Who were the two men (line 15)?
3) If you are a fellow citizen (present tense, line 19) are you then already seated
with Christ in the heavenly realms?

 

[B-A-C]

1) What was the dividing wall of hostility (line 14)?
2) Who were the two men (line 15)?
3) If you are a fellow citizen (present tense, line 19) are you then already seated
with Christ in the heavenly realms?

1. The ordinances of the law.
2. The Jews and the Gentiles.
3. Those verse say nothing about being seated by Christ present tense.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Originally Posted by DHC
1) What was the dividing wall of hostility (line 14)?
2) Who were the two men (line 15)?
3) If you are a fellow citizen (present tense, line 19) are you then already seated
with Christ in the heavenly realms?

I would agree with BAC but it would appear different in each level or set.
It is helpful to know that the Hebrews judged things by their behavior and not there appearances.
Like "the pen is mightier than the sword" is now "the keypad is mightier than the drone".
Take a cow a horse and a sparrow.If I asked which two are more alike most people would say the horse and the cow.
But an ancient Hebrew would say the horse and the sparrow are more alike because they behave more alike than a cow who stands around chewing all day.

#1 a picture or figure of the law (spirit) represented in the temple (inanimate/matter level) as the veil which was torn and represented in the temple of Jesus's body(life giving being) by the piercing of the veil of flesh which covered a mans heart.

#2 Jews and Gentiles(world level) which are represented by many other two's that merge. Isreal and Judah (national level)
marriage(human level ) "the two shall become one",then on the spirit or cosmos level it is the mystery of Christ and the church.
Even the two thieves(one repentant the other belligerent) on the cross merged into Christ."today you shall be with me(in him)in paradise.

#3 Yes,but if you judge by appearances you will miss it because it is on a different level but it is actual and took place 2000 years ago.
Actually on another level The lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world so you have been there before or out of time.
This can be confirmed by Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

His resurrection was and is our resurrection which took place two thousand years ago in time but before the foundation of the world on an out of time level.

By the way I did not learn this anywhere its just the way I developed to make all scripture make sense(to me anyway) so feel free to critique as it is far from complete or refined.
I could also just be insane and just don't know it.

Job 38:19“What is the way to the abode of light?And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!You have lived so many years!

 

[DHC]

1. The ordinances of the law.
2. The Jews and the Gentiles.
3. Those verse say nothing about being seated by Christ present tense.

Hello B-A-C.

I am not sure if I understand your answer to the first question.

What are the "ordinances of the law" B-A-C?

I also noticed your reply to the third question appeared incorrect.

but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

If you are a fellow citizen in the household of God, then you are also seated with
Christ.

 

[Barny]

Hello Barny, I have a little story for you so that you and I can agree that we cannot recieve salvation through the works of the law.

A gambler gambles away all that he has and far more, to where his debt is a trillion dollars now the man he owes wants to be paid, but the gambler does not have that kind of money and has never seen that kind of money. So the man he owes seeks to take his life. Another man sees the situation and has compassion on the gambler. He just happens to have a trillion dollars, but it is all he has, but this kind man has such love and pity for the gambler he pays off his dept in full. The gambler has a job making 10 dollars and hour and he is working at his job. The kind man comes to the job where the man is working and says I have paid your dept for you. The gambler dosen't even look up at the kind man and continues to work to pay off his dept. Now the gambler can never pay his dept at ten dollars and hour it is way to high to ever pay in his lifetime but yet he continues to work. Would this not be also insulting to the kind man?

So for now on from this post if I mention the law it is not by works for I percieve this would be insulting to Christ.

That being said I would like to continue from the context of my last post if you agree.

We both agree that you cannot sin in Christ, we disagree in what that means. If I am in Christ I am freed from sin so, I must first seperate myself from Christ to commit sin, the actual sin is the seperation, sinning is the effect of the seperation.
You have used 1Jn3:9 many times and that is where I will start. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Now if I am in Christ and there is no sin in Christ then I cannot sin. So if I sin I cannot be in Christ. Let me continue. John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou Father, art in me, and I in thee", Here you see the Father and Son are one, as there is no sin in the Father, and Christ is one with the Father Jesus could not sin. "and that they also may be one in us:" Here we see that the relationship that the Father had with the Son, where Jesus could not sin, is the same relationship we have as being one with the Father in Christ, so that we cannot sin. Only when we are one with the Father and the Son we will cease to sin. Only when we depart from being one with the Father and the Son can we commit an act of sin. An act of sin is transgression of the law 1Jn3:4. Looking at 1Jn 3:9 should be brougt into a whole new light in this context. I believe John is telling us what we are to become through a fantastic relationship with the Father and the Son so that ALL sin can and will be overcome "in Christ"

You are correct, we do differ in what it means that in Christ we cannot sin.

Regarding your story about the gambler, whilst that corresponds in one part with Christ paying our debt for sin, that story lacks in explaining our position in Christ.

Not only was that past sin debt paid (meaning there's no more sin afterwards, Rom 3:25, 1Pet 4:1), but believers subsequently have their life hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. Hence being in Christ, righteousness is imputed to us by reason of our being in Christ, by faith. As you can see this goes well beyond the gambler story you told.

The scenario with salvation is more like the gambler's debt was paid in full by the king of the country PLUS the gambler was loved so much that he was adopted in to that royal family with all the privileges, benefits and position of the royal bloodline. Nobody would ever dare to attack or lay any charges against that gambler now that he is part of the royal family.

This is what 1John 3:9 refers to.

But, what I understand from your post, you disagree and claim that we are yet to become righteous/sinless when we eventually reach a stage in this physical life where we perfectly keep the law/10 commandments. Until then you say that we are not in Christ when we still disobey the law. In fact 1John 3:8 says that those who sin are of the devil, so it seems what you are saying is that we are of the devil until that time when we consistently obey the law perfectly, day by day.

What I understand from your doctrine, is that you don't accept that you are righteous in Christ until you see physical evidence for it. You are believing by faith that one day in the future, when the physical evidence of perfect obedience to the law is achieved, that then you will be sinless. I understand from your post that until that physical proof of perfect obedience to the law is achieved, that you believe we are not in Christ and are instead of the devil.

So if I understood your post correctly then yes, we do agree that we disagree in our understanding of 1John 3:6-9.

 

[DHC]

His resurrection was and is our resurrection which took place two thousand years ago in time but before the foundation of the world on an out of time level.

I do agree Thiscrosshurts.

We are finite beings created by an eternal, Spirit, God.

Our redemption has been granted from all eternity.

We need only to gaze into our eternal citizenship with Christ.

So peaceful these thoughts we possess.

 

[papajim]

You are correct, we do differ in what it means that in Christ we cannot sin.

Regarding your story about the gambler, whilst that corresponds in one part with Christ paying our debt for sin, that story lacks in explaining our position in Christ.

Not only was that past sin debt paid (meaning there's no more sin afterwards, Rom 3:25, 1Pet 4:1), but believers subsequently have their life hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. Hence being in Christ, righteousness is imputed to us by reason of our being in Christ, by faith. As you can see this goes well beyond the gambler story you told.

The scenario with salvation is more like the gambler's debt was paid in full by the king of the country PLUS the gambler was loved so much that he was adopted in to that royal family with all the privileges, benefits and position of the royal bloodline. Nobody would ever dare to attack or lay any charges against that gambler now that he is part of the royal family.

This is what 1John 3:9 refers to.

But, what I understand from your post, you disagree and claim that we are yet to become righteous/sinless when we eventually reach a stage in this physical life where we perfectly keep the law/10 commandments. Until then you say that we are not in Christ when we still disobey the law. In fact 1John 3:8 says that those who sin are of the devil, so it seems what you are saying is that we are of the devil until that time when we consistently obey the law perfectly, day by day.

What I understand from your doctrine, is that you don't accept that you are righteous in Christ until you see physical evidence for it. You are believing by faith that one day in the future, when the physical evidence of perfect obedience to the law is achieved, that then you will be sinless. I understand from your post that until that physical proof of perfect obedience to the law is achieved, that you believe we are not in Christ and are instead of the devil.

So if I understood your post correctly then yes, we do agree that we disagree in our understanding of 1John 3:6-9.

Love is of Christ, lust is of the Devil. If we love it is of Christ, If we lust it is of the Devil. That is simple enough.
I like the way you finished the story, we also agree on the imputed righeousness of Christ that I do not dispute, but sin is of the Devil. Righteousness is by faith we become righteous by faith. It is our faith that needs to grow so that we become what we believe. Paul said that the law is our schoolmaster until the faith comes then we are no longer under the schoolmaster. I believe Paul is saying that when our faith is complete or when we have the fullness of faith we are no longer under the schoolmaster. The problem is not in the gift we have in Christ but believing that we have the gift in Christ, so much so that we become the righteousness of Christ in this body. Faith has always been the issue. What you understand is not the complete Gospel but it is half of the Gospel. The other half is how we recieve that gift which is through faith. In Rev. 14:12 is says "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus." Here we see that works of obedience and faith work together not our works but the works of Christ in us through faith, like the faith of Christ. This is also a last day message for the last gerneration.
Also the ten commandments is about love God says thou shalt not because that is what we are doing but through heavenly love we will automaticlly stop doing these things, please read Romans 13:8-14. We have an earthly love, through faith we develope a heavenly love which will brings us into complete obedience to the law. If the law says "thou shalt not steal" and I love my neighbor I will not steal automatically, and God said "thou shall not commit adultry" if we love, we will not lust, for lust is of the Devil, love is of God and is God. God is love, the law is about love, to have one is to have the other. If you would see the law in this way we would come to an agreement and the dispute would end. In Christ we become love and through love we also fulfill the law.

The Jews saw the law only as a set of rules given by God, that is why the Pharisees were so corrupt, and because they lacked love they could not fulfill the law. Love is fulfilling the law! I believe this was the great battle Paul had with the Jews in which Paul also particpated in as Saul.

 

[Eddy Fire]

The LORD God repented

does that mean He sinned?

 

[papajim]

The LORD God repented

does that mean He sinned?

I believe that regret, would apply and maybe that is what repent means, to regret, biblicly speaking.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

We need only to gaze into our eternal citizenship with Christ.

Amen,a camel won't help you need to be a gazelle.
Flesh won't fit through those gates but focus will because it has no mass,time or speed.

Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all outside, and knelt down and prayed; and turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up.
Tabitha=Aramaic word that means gazelle.

So peaceful these thoughts we possess.

It is hard to kick against the pricks,but compliance brings relief.

 

[Barny]

sin is of the Devil.
Righteousness is by faith we become righteous by faith. It is our faith that needs to grow so that we become what we believe. Paul said that the law is our schoolmaster until the faith comes then we are no longer under the schoolmaster. I believe Paul is saying that when our faith is complete or when we have the fullness of faith we are no longer under the schoolmaster. The problem is not in the gift we have in Christ but believing that we have the gift in Christ, so much so that we become the righteousness of Christ in this body. Faith has always been the issue. What you understand is not the complete Gospel but it is half of the Gospel. The other half is how we recieve that gift which is through faith. In Rev. 14:12 is says "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus." Here we see that works of obedience and faith work together not our works but the works of Christ in us through faith, like the faith of Christ. This is also a last day message for the last gerneration.
Also the ten commandments is about love God says thou shalt not because that is what we are doing but through heavenly love we will automaticlly stop doing these things, please read Romans 13:8-14. We have an earthly love, through faith we develope a heavenly love which will brings us into complete obedience to the law. If the law says "thou shalt not steal" and I love my neighbor I will not steal automatically, and God said "thou shall not commit adultry" if we love, we will not lust, for lust is of the Devil, love is of God and is God. God is love, the law is about love, to have one is to have the other. If you would see the law in this way we would come to an agreement and the dispute would end. In Christ we become love and through love we also fulfill the law.

The Jews saw the law only as a set of rules given by God, that is why the Pharisees were so corrupt, and because they lacked love they could not fulfill the law. Love is fulfilling the law! I believe this was the great battle Paul had with the Jews in which Paul also particpated in as Saul.

I guess we'll just have to disagree.

The doctrine you follow denies that believers are righteous in Christ until physical evidence of perfect obedience to the law is achieved. The implication of such a doctrine is that believers are not in Christ but are of the devil instead, until such time as their faith grows to the point where they perfectly obey the law consistently.

The doctrine you follow reminds me of Gal 3:3
"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

We disagree in how we see the law.
What the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
That means if your under the law then you have to meet it's requirements of perfect obedience for righteousness. And if you fail this perfect obedience then you have sinned (being guilty of all the law, James 2:10), and the penalty is death.

But Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9, Gal 3:25.
As we're not under the law then how can anyone charge us with it's transgression/sin?
And yet we see that our faith is counted for righteousness instead, Rom 4:5. So again, as we're righteous in Christ how can anyone charge us with sin/unrighteousness?
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.