antimonianism

[papajim]

I guess we'll just have to disagree.

The doctrine you follow denies that believers are righteous in Christ until physical evidence of perfect obedience to the law is achieved. The implication of such a doctrine is that believers are not in Christ but are of the devil instead, until such time as their faith grows to the point where they perfectly obey the law consistently.

The doctrine you follow reminds me of Gal 3:3
"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

We disagree in how we see the law.
What the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
That means if your under the law then you have to meet it's requirements of perfect obedience for righteousness. And if you fail this perfect obedience then you have sinned (being guilty of all the law, James 2:10), and the penalty is death.

But Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9, Gal 3:25.
As we're not under the law then how can anyone charge us with it's transgression/sin?
And yet we see that our faith is counted for righteousness instead, Rom 4:5. So again, as we're righteous in Christ how can anyone charge us with sin/unrighteousness?
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Barny,
The imputed righteousness is where our christian walk begins, you are mixing the two aspects of the gospel. Please be patient with me. When we first become christians we are excited and at the same time feel remorse for our past lives (exceptence and repentence). I'm sure you experienced this some twenty years ago I know I did. At the time I accepted Jesus and believed in Him, I was covered by His imputed righteousness as you and I agree whole heartedly. At this point He accepts us as we are, filthy rags and all.
But Jesus does not leave us in the condition that He found us in, He begins to clothe us with His rightousness and there comes a process of growth in our christian walk, this is where the law benifets us. it shows us our filthy rags and guides us to Christ to develope the character of Christ in us, until the fullness of faith comes. As we grow in Christ the law has less and less power, for our filthy rags are being replaced with white linnen. As we grow in faith we grow in righteousness all the while being covered by Christ's imputed righteousness so that God continues to see His son in us. Finally the last generation the ones that will meet Jesus face to face without seeing death (the bride) will be compatible with Jesus (the groom) they will be evenly yoked, for they will be one. The point of christian growth is to grow up into Christ so that when faith is complete, if Jesus were to walk away God would still see His son in us. This is a love story, where the bride is also in love with the groom so much so that she becomes like Him.

In every aspect of the imputed righteousness of Christ you are correct and we desperately need this as we grow in our walk with Christ. When the babies in Christ grow to be a grown woman (the church) then Christ will come to get His bride.
Looking at the bible in this way helps us to undersand what is written.

If were to look at only the imputed righteousness there would be no point in overcoming anything, but Jesus said to overcome as He overcame. Jesus overcame ALL sin so in Him we overcome ALL sin.
I could go on Barny, but I just want to sum it up. The Lord has gotten me up at three this morning to give this message to you.

 

[Coconut]

He begins to clothe us with His rightousness and there comes a process of growth in our christian walk, this is where the law benifets us. it shows us our filthy rags and guides us to Christ to develope the character of Christ in us

19 pages later the glorious light of the gospel is laying on the table in a big glob of wax...

The Lord has gotten me up at three this morning to give this message to you.

...and papajim after a lot of tossing and turning has decided that a good dose of the law is just what is needed to make Gods children grow up.


Please be patient with me also, but what the Lord really said is the law has not been - can not be - will never be - beneficial to the growth or development of a single born again child of God....ever... so I say the law will only stunt the growth of those who lean on its crutch at best...but i`m being too generous...

Scripture says explicitly that the law kills.

Hows that for a warning label on the theological medicine bottle? :coocoo:

 

[papajim]

19 pages later the glorious light of the gospel is laying on the table in a big glob of wax...




...and papajim after a lot of tossing and turning has decided that a good dose of the law is just what is needed to make Gods children grow up.


Please be patient with me also, but what the Lord really said is the law has not been - can not be - will never be - beneficial to the growth or development of a single born again child of God....ever... so I say the law will only stunt the growth of those who lean on its crutch at best...but i`m being too generous...

Scripture says explicitly that the law kills.

Hows that for a warning label on the theological medicine bottle? :coocoo:

I'm not suggesting that we lean on the law, we lean only on Christ. The law is our schoolmaster until the faith comes, then we no longer need the schoolmaster. Also I did not toss and turn. Bye he way coconut the law can ony kill those that hold on to thier filthy rags. I hope you are not holding on to yours. Those who sin are he servants of sin, and the light destorys the darkness!

 

[B-A-C]

Hello B-A-C.
I am not sure if I understand your answer to the first question.
What are the "ordinances of the law" B-A-C?
I also noticed your reply to the third question appeared incorrect.
but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
If you are a fellow citizen in the household of God, then you are also seated with
Christ.

Eph 2:11; Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--
Eph 2:12; remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13; But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14; For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Eph 2:15; by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
Eph 2:16; and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
Eph 2:17; AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;
Eph 2:18; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19; So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,

Obviously the "ordinances in this passage are the ones that put enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews weren't supposed to have anything to do with the Gentiles.

Lev 20:24; 'Hence I have said to you, "You are to possess their land, and I Myself will give it to you to possess it, a land flowing with milk and honey."
I am the LORD your God, who has separated you from the peoples.
Lev 20:26 'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I have set you apart from other nations to be Mine.

Lev 18:24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
Lev 18:25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.

(KJV) Eph 2:6; And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

"In" Christ is slightly different from "with" Christ. We are seated their clothed in him and his authority. We aren't seated next to him (at least not yet)

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The obvious answer to Rom 8:33; would be Rom 8:34;
Rom 8:34; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

 

[B-A-C]

#3 Yes,but if you judge by appearances you will miss it because it is on a different level but it is actual and took place 2000 years ago.
Actually on another level The lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world so you have been there before or out of time.
This can be confirmed by Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

These are two different events. Christ is seated in heaven. But you aren't there "in" him until you receive him and accept him as your personal savior.
Universalists believe the 'whole world' was saved two thousand years ago. But the whole world is the Jews and Gentiles who are followers of Christ.

I assure you, that if you are practicing certain things. You are not seated in the heavenly places.

Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:29; being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
Rom 1:30; slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31; without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only those who do these things but even if you approve of others who do these things.

 

[Coconut]

I'm not suggesting that we lean on the law, we lean only on Christ. The law is our schoolmaster until the faith comes, then we no longer need the schoolmaster. Also I did not toss and turn. Bye he way coconut the law can ony kill those that hold on to thier filthy rags. I hope you are not holding on to yours. Those who sin are he servants of sin, and the light destorys the darkness!

whew, thats a relief to hear! If that be so your previous post is most confusing...maybe my coffee was too watered down ...but better to have a Coconut with a watered down coffee than to have the children swallow a watered down gospel .. right?

Sorry I threw a bucket of suds at you...but if you indeed carry the true light, your candle was never in any danger.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

These are two different events. Christ is seated in heaven. But you aren't there "in" him until you receive him and accept him as your personal savior.

I agree that it appears that way,standing in time looking out we can only look forward or back.
But it will never make any sense until our mind is released from the bondage of linear time.
The names written in the Lamb's book of life are not our earthly names that our parents gave us.

Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

If this book is contains our carnal earth names then there is a lot of blotting out and rewriting going on.

Revelation 3:12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

You are seated in his name not yours.

Revelation 2:17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

So,I certainly understand why you see things the way you do and on a certain level( what we think and perceive as reality) I agree with you.

Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The new creature created in Christ with God's name written on him(actually "it"since gender is an earthly thing) is the seed of God and does not even know what those things are much less do them.It is a role that we "step into" or "put on".

How do you explain how this statement fits our understanding of time and space?

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Job 38:19“What is the way to the abode of light?And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!You have lived so many years!

I would also like an informed opinion on these verses because I have never heard anyone even try.

 

[papajim]

DHC, I would like you to look at Romans 6 and tell me if you can see two ways of looking at this, don't be to quick to answer me, but meditate on it for a while. I can see it two ways, I see it your way and also another way, can you?
I suggest to you that both ways are correct.

 

[papajim]

whew, thats a relief to hear! If that be so your previous post is most confusing...maybe my coffee was too watered down ...but better to have a Coconut with a watered down coffee than to have the children swallow a watered down gospel .. right?

Sorry I threw a bucket of suds at you...but if you indeed carry the true light, your candle was never in any danger.

Tell me coconut why is it confusing? maybe I can clear it up for you.

 

[brakelite]

Barny,
The imputed righteousness is where our christian walk begins, you are mixing the two aspects of the gospel. Please be patient with me. When we first become christians we are excited and at the same time feel remorse for our past lives (exceptence and repentence). I'm sure you experienced this some twenty years ago I know I did. At the time I accepted Jesus and believed in Him, I was covered by His imputed righteousness as you and I agree whole heartedly. At this point He accepts us as we are, filthy rags and all.

This whole post papajim is an excellent description of the gospel. A process that starts at the cross and our acceptance of what Christ has done for us, and ends with the resurrection and our formal welcome home. In between these two events is a life-time of warfare. War against the devil, and war against that old man who died along with Jesus but who constantly seeks to be resurrected and once again play the dominant role in our everyday living. As Paul so eloquently described, we all were once slaves to sin, in bondage to our passions, and to our addictions, but praise be to Jesus who has set us free and yearns that we be delivered from those things which crippled us.

But Jesus does not leave us in the condition that He found us in, He begins to clothe us with His rightousness and there comes a process of growth in our christian walk, this is where the law benifets us. it shows us our filthy rags and guides us to Christ to develope the character of Christ in us, until the fullness of faith comes. As we grow in Christ the law has less and less power, for our filthy rags are being replaced with white linnen. As we grow in faith we grow in righteousness all the while being covered by Christ's imputed righteousness so that God continues to see His son in us.

Isn't that wonderful!!! Thankyou Jesus that you have the power and are willing to change these sin-sick bound up helpless excuses for men and women and make them saints! That by your grace and mercy we are born again , new creatures created once again in the image of God. Isn't it great papajim that this is real! Not a fairy tale or a far off wished for fanciful dream belonging to a future age, no, no, but right here, right now, we can be new creatures; loving those things we once hated, and hating those things we once loved. Rejoicing in the hope of eternal life; living in the reality of an imparted righteousness that changes, redefines, and radically transforms our wishy washy weak diluted selfish proud characters and makes us fit for the company of angels and heaven. And cooler still is our attitude toward the things of God. Living and walking in holiness is such a delight! Having the victory over circumstances which once were our downfall; having the victory over temptations which once found us out;having the victory over the devil who once took us wherever he desired; having the victory over self who lorded our lives and led us into deeper and deeper sin and wickedness through lust, covetousness, anger, jealousy, I could go on and on. Praise God and thankyou Jesus for your grace and power and for all you accomplished for us at Calvary!!! And coolest of all is our new found lave for the law! Where we once hated the law because it accused us of sin, condemned us outright over and over again and there was nothing we could do about it! The law doesn't lie; we couldn't argue with it, if the Holy Spirit was convicting we couldn't ignore it, (not easily at least); we couldn't excuse ourselves before it and explain ourselves away; we couldn't propose mitigating circumstances to lessen our guilt. No, we were guilty, all of us, for all manner of sin and iniquity, and oh how we hated the law! We didn't want to be known as sinners, God forbid!! No, not me said I. A sinner? Me??? Never!! But now? Now that Jesus has changed me and continues to change me day by day? the law is my delight! I love the law!!! Why? Because it accurately and unerringly portrays the righteousness of Christ, and not only so, promises , yes promises, that I too can be like Him.
For just as Jesus has only one God, so also the law promises
Thou (meaning me) shalt have no other gods before Me. Wow! Thankyou Jesus!!!!
And just as Jesus never worshipped an idol, sl also the law promises me that
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image etc etc. Hallelujah!!!
And it doesn't stop there! Oh no. Listen to this...just as Jesus never profaned the name of His Father, so also the law promises me that
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. (An interesting note here. In the language of my homeland this text has been interpreted in our language Bible you shall not remove the sacredness from the name of the Lord your God. I think this gives an interesting perspective to the KJV text.

Do you understand what I am getting at here? I could repeat all this with every single commandment. The Sabbath. Honouring your parents. Murder and unrighteous anger. Lust for and adultery with women. Thieving, in all its forms, (including tax evasion and tithes), lying, covetousness. Just as Jesus was holy and kept all God's commandments, so also can we, if we have faith!!!

Finally the last generation the ones that will meet Jesus face to face without seeing death (the bride) will be compatible with Jesus (the groom) they will be evenly yoked, for they will be one. The point of christian growth is to grow up into Christ so that when faith is complete, if Jesus were to walk away God would still see His son in us. This is a love story, where the bride is also in love with the groom so much so that she becomes like Him.

Yes papajim! This is an experiential reality that does indeed take place in the lives of God's children, so long as they are willing to surrender their lives to Him and submit themselves to the righteousness of God.

In every aspect of the imputed righteousness of Christ you are correct and we desperately need this as we grow in our walk with Christ. When the babies in Christ grow to be a grown woman (the church) then Christ will come to get His bride.
Looking at the bible in this way helps us to undersand what is written.

If were to look at only the imputed righteousness there would be no point in overcoming anything, but Jesus said to overcome as He overcame. Jesus overcame ALL sin so in Him we overcome ALL sin.
I could go on Barny, but I just want to sum it up. The Lord has gotten me up at three this morning to give this message to you.

 

[Barny]

At this point He accepts us as we are, filthy rags and all.
But Jesus does not leave us in the condition that He found us in, He begins to clothe us with His rightousness and there comes a process of growth in our christian walk, this is where the law benifets us. it shows us our filthy rags and guides us to Christ to develope the character of Christ in us, until the fullness of faith comes. As we grow in Christ the law has less and less power, for our filthy rags are being replaced with white linnen. As we grow in faith we grow in righteousness all the while being covered by Christ's imputed righteousness so that God continues to see His son in us.

I see a contradiction in what you say.
If believers are righteous in Christ then why then say we are yet to attain righteousness by a growing process?
The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was righteous in Christ. That thief did not go through a growing process to gradually be clothed with righteousness. Are you saying that the thief on the cross was fast-tracked in righteousness whilst those like us have to go through a gradual process?

If Christians are righteous in Christ then that means we're not sinners. And remember anyone who does sin is a "servant of sin," John 8:34; and "of the devil," 1John 3:8.

Note 1Pet 4:18
if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

There are 2 very different groups described in this verse.
Group 1: Righteous and saved
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner/unsaved.

Clearly we can't be both righteous and a sinner. Hopefully you can see why I see a contradiction in your claim that believers are righteous and yet still having to attain righteousness through a growth process.

If were to look at only the imputed righteousness there would be no point in overcoming anything, but Jesus said to overcome as He overcame. Jesus overcame ALL sin so in Him we overcome ALL sin.
I could go on Barny, but I just want to sum it up. The Lord has gotten me up at three this morning to give this message to you.

1John 5:4-5 tells us how we overcome and what we overcome.
1John 5:4-5.
For whatever is born of God (1John 5:1) overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

As this shows, it's not a process of gradually overcoming bad physical behavior.

Getting up at 3am is too early. Hope you slept in to make up for that sleep interruption.

 

[james1523]

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was righteous in Christ.

There is no scripture that says the thief on the cross was righteous in Christ. Christ had not died and resurrected yet. The thief was saved by faith in Christ before Christ died and resurrected and sent the Spirit .. so the thief on the cross was saved under the Old Covenant not the New Covenant. Christ didn't even say the thief was saved.. merely that he would be in paradise with Christ. Paradise was the side of Hades, place of the dead, where the Old Testament saints rested (c.f. poor man and rich man parable). Under the new covenant, we go straight to the Lord in heaven.

 

[Barny]

There is no scripture that says the thief on the cross was righteous in Christ. The thief was saved before Christ died and resurrected and sent the Spirit .. so the thief on the cross was saved under the Old Covenant not the New Covenant.

Are you saying that the thief on the cross was not righteous and yet still entered paradise regardless?
How would sin/unrighteousness get in to paradise? It can't.

 

[james1523]

Are you saying that the thief on the cross was not righteous and yet still entered paradise regardless?
How would sin/unrighteousness get in to paradise? It can't.

How would anyone under the Old Covenant get into paradise? By faith in God. The same faith that Abraham had. But you said he was "righteous in Christ". Righteousness in Christ is only under the New Covenant after the Spirit of Christ is sent and we are born again. The thief on the cross was not born again...Christ was not living within Him... so he could not be "righteous in Christ" as you claim... but he was justified by faith, just like Abraham was. So the thief on the cross is a poor example to use to explain New Covenant truths.

 

[Barny]

How would anyone under the Old Covenant get into paradise? By faith in God. The same faith that Abraham had. But you said he was "righteous in Christ". Righteousness in Christ is only under the New Covenant after the Spirit of Christ is sent and we are born again. The thief on the cross was not born again...Christ was not living within Him... so he could not be "righteous in Christ" as you claim... but he was justified by faith, just like Abraham was. So the thief on the cross is a poor example to use to explain New Covenant truths.

Sorry, now I understand your point. Your correct, scripture does not say the thief was righteous in Christ.

But my point remains that believers are righteous, including the thief on the cross. Hence if we teach that believers are yet to go through a process to attain righteousness then this contradicts righteousness by faith. And as the thief on the cross was righteous by faith then did he get fast-tracked to righteousness whilst others have to go through a process?

Also note that under the OT we see:
Rom 4:3
Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

The thief on the cross believed in Jesus and his faith was counted as righteousness. Just as Abraham did.

That thief on the cross was not believing on Jesus but was really believing on God, just as Abraham did.
John 12:44
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

So we see the same gospel was being presented in both OT and NT.

 

[james1523]

Sorry, now I understand your point. Your correct, scripture does not say the thief was righteous in Christ.

But my point remains that believers are righteous, including the thief on the cross. Hence if we teach that believers are yet to go through a process to attain righteousness then this contradicts righteousness by faith. And as the thief on the cross was righteous by faith then did he get fast-tracked to righteousness whilst others have to go through a process?

Also note that under the OT we see:
Rom 4:3
Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

The thief on the cross believed in Jesus and his faith was counted as righteousness. Just as Abraham did.

That thief on the cross was not believing on Jesus but was really believing on God, just as Abraham did.
John 12:44
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

So we see the same gospel was being presented in both OT and NT.

Imputed righteousness for our positional/judicial salvation (towards God), imparted righteousness for Christ's life expressed through us to the outside world (towards man). I believe there is an accelerated program of imparted righteousness if we do not achieve perfection in this life. 1 Cor 3:15 etc suggests we can suffer loss. 2 Tim 4:8 Paul would be rewarded with a crown of righteousness that is given only to those who are approved at the judgement seat of Christ. This is why Jesus said be careful about judging others because we are going to be judged at the judgement seat.

 

[brakelite]

I see a contradiction in what you say.
If believers are righteous in Christ then why then say we are yet to attain righteousness by a growing process?

Barny, your statement above is at the core of your confusion. Justification means we are declared righteous. We are accounted righteous by a holy yet gracious God. Because of what His Son accomplished through the shedding of His blood on our behalf, the atonement is made and God now looks upon us as if we had never sinned. God can compare us with His law, He sees we are yet imperfect, yet for Christ's sake declares us innocent of all charges. This is not amnesty, for justice was done in Christ. This is grace and mercy. However, unlike your quote above, while the believer in Jesus is declared righteous, this does not make him righteous. Declaring one righteous is a completely separate concept to making one righteous. One is justification, the other sanctification. One grants us the licence for eternal life, the other the fitness for eternal life. One happens the moment we believe, the other takes time, and constant vigilance, prayer, Bible study, and hungering and thirsting for it on our part. One declares us righteous in accordance with God's laws, the other recreates us in the image of Christ making us conformable to God's laws.
Two things they have in common.
1. Both are accomplished by God, and neither can be accomplished by ourselves.
2. Neither can be received by anyone without faith.

 

[Eddy Fire]

Hi, me again

Adam sinned.

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:9

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

The word tells us there is no now righteous no not one ...when we pass from this flesh only then will I be found perfect in Christ ..to be absent from the body is to be present with God ...only then will I be able to stand before God or man as a whole soul ..every day His word tells us to take up our cross and follow Him...He knows we will face daily struggles in this body but there is hope ! For we have and advocate in Christ ..it does not give us licsence to stay as we are or pop in and out but it does give us the right to contend for the Faith ,reach for perfection in Christ and access to the power of God to assit us in becomg the image of Christ on Earth....if we dont show that perfection in faith to a hurting and lost world that there is hope in Christ what good are we?...thats what He showed us ! ....Rev

 

[papajim]

I see a contradiction in what you say.
If believers are righteous in Christ then why then say we are yet to attain righteousness by a growing process?
The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was righteous in Christ. That thief did not go through a growing process to gradually be clothed with righteousness. Are you saying that the thief on the cross was fast-tracked in righteousness whilst those like us have to go through a gradual process?

Not at all, he was save by what Christ was going to do, same as the righteousnes before him. They were looking to the cross in what Christ was going to do and we look back at the cross in what Christ has done. All men are saved by the life and death of Christ as well as the ressurection. Christ righteousness was imputed to Him, he believed and was saved. However if he had come down from the cross he also would have been a changed man, for the same reason when you excepted Christ you became a changed man, and I hope you are still changing into the fullness of Christ. In what you believe there is no point in spiritual growth.

Barny we are going in circles here. My point is there is two ways to look at the gospel and both sides are correct. We are righteous by faith and we become righteous through faith. Every scripture you use to make your point I can also use to make my point, I believe that we are fighting one truth against the other. Unfortunatly you only see this one way, when I see it both ways. Please be open minded Barny. If we ARE freed from sin we are also freed from sinning, the two are together. Jesus freed us from sin alltogether so if we still sin it is through unbelief, Faith is a process as I have already said, but the gift is instant. The problem lies within us.

If Christians are righteous in Christ then that means we're not sinners. And remember anyone who does sin is a "servant of sin," John 8:34; and "of the devil," 1John 3:8.

I agree so then why do we sin?

There are 2 very different groups described in this verse.
Group 1: Righteous and saved
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner/unsaved.

If we are still sinning then we are also sinners.

Clearly we can't be both righteous and a sinner. Hopefully you can see why I see a contradiction in your claim that believers are righteous and yet still having to attain righteousness through a growth process.

Amen, so if we are still sinning then we cannot be righteousness. I can also use the same argument for you.

If we are righteous then why do we sin there is no sin in righteousness? The contridiction also lies in your claim, that the flesh is dead and sin is of the flesh so how can it sin? I know how you will answer this already, but I also see it another way which is also correct.

1John 5:4-5 tells us how we overcome and what we overcome.
1John 5:4-5.
For whatever is born of God (1John 5:1) overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This verse tells us how to overcome the world what is in the world that needs to be overcome? and if we are without sin already then why do we need to overcome? Jesus freed us from sin and we still sin does that mean we don't believe? sure it does.

As this shows, it's not a process of gradually overcoming bad physical behavior.

Sure it does, because faith is a process that overcomes bad physical behavior.
If you are still sinning then it is a process , because you don't believe you are without sin.

Getting up at 3am is too early. Hope you slept in to make up for that sleep interruption.

Yeah I agree but I was wide awake, right now it is 4:24

Sorry Barny, you will have to excuse my inability to use this site.