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Are some people predestined for hell no matter what they do.

Butch5 said:
Book studies are great, but if we don't consider the historical background, geopolitical situation, and the like we can still get off base.
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That is part Of the book study. The 5 W's in Bible study. Who, what, where, when and how (the 'w' is silent :))

All Scripture is given for our learning, etc.
 
LordKnows said:
Because you believe this, what is behind your question?
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MY question was to determine what hell is. People equivocate on this word. One time it mean Hades, another it may mean Gehenna, some people say it's the absence of God. People just seem to define it however they see fit. Unless we have a Biblical definition that doesn't change from person to person we can't really have a discussion about it.
 
Butch5 said:
It's just a matter of context. If you were reading an American history book and George Washington was quoted as saying all of us Americans have muskets, would you assume that all Americans today have muskets? I don't think you would. You would understand that in context his statement spoke of another time. Just because someone is an American today doesn't necessarily mean his statement applies to them. It's no different with the Scriptures. They are an historical document. When Jesus said, 'you did not choose me, but I chose you', He was speaking to a specific group of people. We were not there and were not a part of that group. We're told also in Scripture that He only came to the Jews.

When Paul said that God had chosen them before the foundation of the world, the context is the Jews. It was the Jews that were chosen. When he says, 'who He predestined, He called, it's all in the past tense. It's about people who God had known in the past and called. People like David, Moses, Abraham, though not a Jew per se he was the father of them.

The passage from Peter is mistranslated, It's not elect according to the foreknowledge of God. It's the elect sojourners of the dispersion.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (1 Pet. 1:1 YLT)

The dispersion or diaspora in Greek is a term used of the Jews who were scattered among the nations.

These passages aren't of Christians, let alone universally of Christians.

It's all context. Today, Christians are taught by theologians and pastors what the Bible says and then they're taken haphazardly through the Scriptures randomly gathering passages of Scripture out of context to supposedly support what has been taught. That's not that proper way to learn the Scriptures and it leads to what we see today, everyone having their own flavor of Christianity. When we do that we can make the Bible say almost anything we want it to say.
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The context of Ephesians 1:3 is that "us" includes the saints at Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus, and Paul.
 
Sue D. said:
That is part Of the book study. The 5 W's in Bible study. Who, what, where, when and how (the 'w' is silent :))

All Scripture is given for our learning, etc.
Click to expand...
But you have theologians that do those studies and yet they come to different conclusions. The Calvinist and the Arminian both do books studies on Romans and come to different conclusions. Something is wrong.
 
Isn't the most important aspect of Scripture is that God provided mankind with salvation.
 
The book of Ephesians is part of the Prison Epistles. Talking to believers / saints.

A verse to share -- Galations 2: 16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." was looking for another verse and came upon 'this'.

Look at Acts 13:45 "Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us."

We are now in the time of the Gentiles and the age of grace. Once the Church is lifted out and up -- there will be 7 yrs for the non-believing Jews to come to Christ. To accept Him as their promised Messiah.
 
David1954 said:
The saints at Ephesus and the faithful in Christ Jesus.
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Paul opens his letter to the Ephesians with an address to the Church. Then he defines two groups. One group he refers to as, us/we/our and the other group he refers to as
you/your. He includes himself in the first group, us/we/our. This group is the Jews. The context of verses 3-12 show this. Also verse 12 says, 'we who first trusted in Christ'. A more accurate translation would be, we who before hoped in the Christ. It was the Jews who had previously hoped in the Christ. Paul then contrasts this group with the you/your group and says they also, after they heard the word of truth, the Gospel. So one group had previously trusted in the Messiah and the other group trusted in the Messiah after they heard the Gospel. We know that the Jews had hoped in the Messiah for a long time, but after the Gospel the Gentiles too hoped in the Messiah. This shows us that the we/our/us group is the Jews and the you/your group is the Gentiles. However, if this isn't conclusive enough Paul states plainly that the you/your group is the Gentiles in chapter 2.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph. 2:11-12 NKJ)

Here he refers to the "you" group as the Gentiles. The saints are the Jews. This can be seen further down in chapter 2.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
(Eph. 2:14-19 NKJ)

After stating that the "you/your" group were aliens to the convenants of promise, were far off, were without Christ and God, were without hope, he goes on to explain how the Gentiles, through Christ, have been brought near. Near to what? Those things that they were far from, the covenants, of promise, hope, Christ, and God. So, they were far off but have been brought near. In this section Paul is contrasting the Jews who were near and the Gentiles who were far off then he says this.

17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, (Eph. 2:17-19 NKJ)

Those who were far off, the Gentiles, are no longer strangers and foreigner but are "fellow citizens with the saints". The Gentiles were far off but are now fellow citizens with the Jews. They now are a part of the covenants of promise made to Israel, they now have hope, Christ, and God.

This is a quick overview. If you'd like a more in depth look at it you can read my commentary on the passage, Ephesians 1
 
Butch5 said:
Paul opens his letter to the Ephesians with an address to the Church. Then he defines two groups. One group he refers to as, us/we/our and the other group he refers to as
you/your. He includes himself in the first group, us/we/our. This group is the Jews. The context of verses 3-12 show this. Also verse 12 says, 'we who first trusted in Christ'. A more accurate translation would be, we who before hoped in the Christ. It was the Jews who had previously hoped in the Christ. Paul then contrasts this group with the you/your group and says they also, after they heard the word of truth, the Gospel. So one group had previously trusted in the Messiah and the other group trusted in the Messiah after they heard the Gospel. We know that the Jews had hoped in the Messiah for a long time, but after the Gospel the Gentiles too hoped in the Messiah. This shows us that the we/our/us group is the Jews and the you/your group is the Gentiles. However, if this isn't conclusive enough Paul states plainly that the you/your group is the Gentiles in chapter 2.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph. 2:11-12 NKJ)

Here he refers to the "you" group as the Gentiles. The saints are the Jews. This can be seen further down in chapter 2.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
(Eph. 2:14-19 NKJ)

After stating that the "you/your" group were aliens to the convenants of promise, were far off, were without Christ and God, were without hope, he goes on to explain how the Gentiles, through Christ, have been brought near. Near to what? Those things that they were far from, the covenants, of promise, hope, Christ, and God. So, they were far off but have been brought near. In this section Paul is contrasting the Jews who were near and the Gentiles who were far off then he says this.

17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, (Eph. 2:17-19 NKJ)

Those who were far off, the Gentiles, are no longer strangers and foreigner but are "fellow citizens with the saints". The Gentiles were far off but are now fellow citizens with the Jews. They now are a part of the covenants of promise made to Israel, they now have hope, Christ, and God.

This is a quick overview. If you'd like a more in depth look at it you can read my commentary on the passage, Ephesians 1
Click to expand...

This is nonsense.

You're argument is that you know how to read and we don't?

I am a very good reader.
 
David1954 said:
This is nonsense.

You're argument is that you know how to read and we don't?

I am a very good reader.
Click to expand...
It's not nonsense at all. It's called reading it in context. I didn't create Koine Greek and I didn't write the rules that govern it. However, if I want to understand it then I better follow the rules. It's the same with English. I didn't create the language, nor the rules that govern it. However, if I want to understand what is being said, I need to follow the rules. We, us, and our are all first person pronouns. You and your are second person. According to the rules of the English language that indicates that two groups are being spoken of. Now that we know there are two groups we have to see how Paul defines them. I gave you that information in the post. You can choose to accept it or reject it. The difference is whether or not you will correctly understand what Paul said. It's really that simple.

My argument has nothing to do with anyone's ability to read. It has to do with context. Do we read the text in context or do we simple pull certain sentences out and say they mean this or they mean that. That many don't pay attention to the context can be seen quite easily. Calvinists often claim that Ephesians 1 is about God choosing who will be saved before the foundation of the world. Let's look at the verse.

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph. 1:4 NKJ)

The passage tells us what they were chosen for. They were chose to be holy and without blame. There's nothing in this sentence that says anything about being chosen to be saved. The Calvinist simply pulls part of the sentence from it's context and applies it elsewhere to fit a preconceived notion.

The same thing is done in Romans 9 when Paul is speaking of election.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated1." (Rom. 9:10-13 NKJ)

They say Jacob was chosen according to God's election, and that it was not of anything he did. That's correct, however, it doesn't say he was chosen to be saved. The passage states plainly why he was chosen. Verse 12 tells us.

12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."

There is nothing said here about Jacob being chosen to be saved and Esau not being. Again, the Calvinist rips part of a verse from it's context and applies it to a preconceived notion. That's not how one understands grammar. There are rules of language for a reason. One of those reasons is so that people don't do what the Calvinists have done with these two verses.
 
Butch5 said:
It's not nonsense at all. It's called reading it in context. I didn't create Koine Greek and I didn't write the rules that govern it. However, if I want to understand it then I better follow the rules. It's the same with English. I didn't create the language, nor the rules that govern it. However, if I want to understand what is being said, I need to follow the rules. We, us, and our are all first person pronouns. You and your are second person. According to the rules of the English language that indicates that two groups are being spoken of. Now that we know there are two groups we have to see how Paul defines them. I gave you that information in the post. You can choose to accept it or reject it. The difference is whether or not you will correctly understand what Paul said. It's really that simple.

My argument has nothing to do with anyone's ability to read. It has to do with context. Do we read the text in context or do we simple pull certain sentences out and say they mean this or they mean that. That many don't pay attention to the context can be seen quite easily. Calvinists often claim that Ephesians 1 is about God choosing who will be saved before the foundation of the world. Let's look at the verse.

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph. 1:4 NKJ)

The passage tells us what they were chosen for. They were chose to be holy and without blame. There's nothing in this sentence that says anything about being chosen to be saved. The Calvinist simply pulls part of the sentence from it's context and applies it elsewhere to fit a preconceived notion.

The same thing is done in Romans 9 when Paul is speaking of election.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated1." (Rom. 9:10-13 NKJ)

They say Jacob was chosen according to God's election, and that it was not of anything he did. That's correct, however, it doesn't say he was chosen to be saved. The passage states plainly why he was chosen. Verse 12 tells us.

12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."

There is nothing said here about Jacob being chosen to be saved and Esau not being. Again, the Calvinist rips part of a verse from it's context and applies it to a preconceived notion. That's not how one understands grammar. There are rules of language for a reason. One of those reasons is so that people don't do what the Calvinists have done with these two verses.
Click to expand...

There are two groups being spoken of.

The saints at Ephesus and the faithful in Christ Jesus. And,

The saints at Ephesus and the faithful in Christ Jesus and Paul.
 
David1954 said:
There are two groups being spoken of.

The saints at Ephesus and the faithful in Christ Jesus. And,

The saints at Ephesus and the faithful in Christ Jesus and Paul.
Click to expand...
Paul includes himself in the first group.
 
13 you also were included...marked in him with a seal... 14 ... a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance...
 
David1954 said:
Your rules, that verses three four and five are not talking about the people in verses one and two, are not the rules other humans use.
Click to expand...

As I said, I didn't write the rules of the either language. It's just up to us to understand them. If we don't, we come away not understanding the text and applying it incorrectly. If people make up their own rules, then they're probably not going to understand it. Which we see quite often.
 
David1954 said:
13 you also were included...marked in him with a seal... 14 ... a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance...
Click to expand...

This is why an accurate translation is better.

in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, (Eph. 1:13 YLT)

They do get included, but, it's after they believed. The things Paul wrote about in the previous verses happened in the past. Thus they Gentile had not been included at the time those things happened.
 
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