Are We In The End Times?

[newname]

Hmmm -- Jesus Christ became our High Priest -- the One and Only.

In the Old Testament there were many high priests. They were the only ones' allowed in the Holy of Holy's. Eventually they All died.

Where is Joshua ever taking off his filthy clothes to clean heaven with his blood.?!

I thought it was about Jesus or pointing at Him.

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan[a] standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel.
4 Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.”
5 And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.”
So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the Lord stood by.
The Coming Branch
6 Then the Angel of the Lord admonished Joshua, saying, 7 “Thus says the Lord of hosts:
‘If you will walk in My ways,
And if you will keep My command,
Then you shall also judge My house,
And likewise have charge of My courts;
I will give you places to walk
Among these who stand here.
8 ‘Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,
You and your companions who sit before you,
For they are a[b] wondrous sign;
For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.
9 For behold, the stone
That I have laid before Joshua:
Upon the stone are seven eyes.
Behold, I will engrave its inscription,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10 In that day,’ says the Lord of hosts,
‘Everyone will invite his neighbor
Under his vine and under his fig tree.’ ”

Zecharia 3


Hebrews 9:

But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be [j]purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

 

[Sue D.]

@newname -- I'll admit that some of the Old Testament Major and Minor prophet books puzzle me greatly. Visions and such can be confusing to read -- trying to understand. I know it's All God's Word , but some is over my head in understanding. And That passage is -- well -- one of them that causes my brain to glaze over.

 

[Trevor]

3?
Jesus went to heaven after He died and after Mary wanted to touch Him and came back before He went to heaven.
There is at least one rapture during the trib. The 2 witnesses get raptured.

Jesus said "I will never leave you or forsake you" If this is the case why are we all getting hung up on the meanings of this or that for, don't we believe that Jesus will be with us every step of the way and hold our hands through it. We are asked to be servants of mankind, to walk the extra mile, give our shirt to him that steals our coat, feed the hungry, turn the other cheek etc... If we do this, do we believe that Jesus would let us down because we didn't understand some obscure scripture, or do we believe that when we need to understand something, the helper will open our eyes at the appropriate time.

 

[newname]

Jesus said "I will never leave you or forsake you" If this is the case why are we all getting hung up on the meanings of this or that, don't you believe that Jesus will be with us every step of the way and hold our hands through it. We are asked to be servants of mankind, to walk the extra mile, give our shirt to him that steals our coat, feed the hungry, turn the other cheek etc... If we do this, do we believe that Jesus would let us down because we didn't understand some obscure scripture, or do we believe that when we need to understand something, the helper will open our eyes at the.apropriate time.

We have to be ready and pray that we will be worthy to escape all these things.

 

[newname]

22Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Reasons to Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture | Calvary Chapel Oxnard

calvaryoxnard.org

 

[Sue D.]

@newname -- that's a very good presentation.

 

[saginon]

The first reason we believe the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation is because it’s called the Blessed Hope in Titus 2:13.
. . . looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

The blessed hope is the appearing of Christ. When does he appear? At the Parousia which is at the end of tribulation

2 – God’s Wrath
In Revelation 6:15-17 we learn the Tribulation is a time of God’s wrath being poured out on the “earth-dwellers.”[1]

The wrath mentioned in Revelation 6:15-17 is God's wrath. At least that's the perception of people who appear to be unbelievers.
15And the kings of the earth, the great men, £the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

The wrath mentioned Revelation 6 is a peculiar one. Why would people believe the wrath of the Lamb has come yet and then hide in caves and wish to die? This wrath is the perception of people who don't know God. That wrath is all different than the wrath mentioned in "not appointed to wrath" which is averted at judgment.

3 – Lot’s Example
In Genesis 18, Lot and his family were delivered from the flaming judgment of God on wicked Sodom. God didn’t protect them in the midst of judgment. He removed them from the time and place of the judgment and took them up into the hills.
In 2 Peter 2:9, Peter speaks of Lot as an example to us and says . . .
. . . the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
The word “temptations” is the same word for tribulation.

Judgment day comes at the end of tribulation. That's not an example at all.

4 – Enoch’s Example
In Genesis 5 we read about Enoch. His story is interesting because he never died, God simply took him one day. This occurred prior to the Flood, which was God’s judgment on a rebellious world.

Nothing to do with a rapture!

5 – Daniel’s Example
Have you ever wondered where Daniel was when Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego were in the fiery furnace in Daniel 3? They were there for refusing to bow to Nebuchadnezzar’s image. But where was Daniel? Certainly he didn’t bow either; so where was he in the story? He’s missing.

My oh my the lengths people go through to support a pre-trib rapture.

[By the way, the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar serves as a picture of the antichrist who makes an image and demands the world worship it.]

Now that I can agree with.

6 – We Are To Pray For Escape!
I’m weary of those who mock the Pre-Tribulation position by saying it’s escapist. They claim that since countless believers have faced tribulation, persecution and martyrdom, why should we hope to escape it?

You can hope all you want and you won't escape it.

The “Day” He refers to here is the Day of the Lord, a period of history that begins with the Rapture.

That's an outright fabricated lie, and a heretical abomination. For centuries the Day of the Lord was the one and only day that begins at His return/Parousia the END of tribulation..

36Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
A Pre-Trib Rapture isn’t escapist. It’s the thing Jesus told us to look and pray we’d be ready for.

Right, being worthy to escape all these things doesn't mean you are removed. It means to flee out of.

7 – The Jewish Wedding Ceremony
In John 14 Jesus spoke some incredibly comforting words –
1“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Correct, at the end of tribulation at the parousia of Christ.

8 – The Outline of Revelation
After speaking to the churches, John was taken up to heaven. It’s from that vantage point that he saw a description of the terrors of the Tribulation.

The word “church,” used 18 times in chs. 1-3, isn’t used even once after that until the very end of Revelation. Chapters 6-19 describe the Tribulation but don’t once mention the “church.” Because the church isn’t on earth; it’s in heaven. Chapters 4-5 describe the church in heaven, worshipping God.
It isn't ???
CHURCH IN REVELATION
There is no mention of the Christian church in Revelation anyway! The word CHURCH describes Churches in Asia Minor.
CHURCH...
They are called saints, servants, fellow-servants, brethren, and martyrs, etc.
The church is the saints with whom the beast makes war with.
The Church is the dead who die in the Lord.
The church is the chosen (Christians) and faithful of ch. 17.
The church is the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
They are the great multitude, which no man could number!
They are the ones who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb!
They are the ones who overcame the beast by the blood of the Lamb!
They are the ones who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ!
They are the ones who would not worship the image of the beast! I could go on!

If the mid-Tribulation Rapture position is correct, then chapters 4-5 would have to be placed after chapter 11, and if the post-Tribulation view is right, chapters 4-5 would have to come after chapter 19. Only the Pre-Tribulation Rapture makes sense of the flow of the Book of Revelation and follows the outline Jesus gave John in 1:19.

That makes no sense. They say that because they think Revelation 4:1 - "come up hither" is the rapture.

9 – A Conditional Tribulation
In the Letter to the Church at Thyatira in Revelation 2, Jesus rebuked the church for allowing a gross moral and spiritual polluter to remain among them. In v. 22 Jesus says –
22Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
If the Rapture occurred after the Tribulation, this wouldn’t make any sense. This is one more proof that the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation and will sort out the genuine believers from those who are mere professors. Genuine believes will repent, and so be delivered from Great Tribulation.

WOW! Really? It makes no sense whatsoever to me to think that they believe that supports pre-trib.

10 – Unknown Time Of Christ’s Return
One of the most powerful proofs for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that it’s the only one that can account for the repeated reference to the coming of the Lord being at a time not expected.

It says we don't know the DAY or HOUR. Think about that. That implies we would know the season! Post trib you would know the season!

Daniel 9 spells out clearly that there will be 1260 days from the time the Antichrist enters the temple in Jerusalem and declares himself god, till the Return of Jesus Christ. Yet Matthew 24:36 makes it clear that no one knows the day of Jesus’s Return. The only way to reconcile this is to see the Rapture and the Second Coming as two different events, separated by 7 years.

Daniel 9 has nothing to do with the last days. It's already fulfilled.

11 – Tribulation Is Unnecessary for the Church
In Jeremiah 30:7, the Tribulation is called Jacob’s trouble. It’s called this because it’s a unique time in which God awakens the Jews to embrace Jesus as their Messiah. In Deuteronomy 4, Moses made this remarkable statement –

What about the remarkable statement/passage in 1 Thes. I keep posting that says we are to endure tribulation and Jacobs trouble??? Tribulation will purify the church.

12 – It Squares with the “70 Weeks of Daniel 9”
This is a rather complex and involved proof, but one of the most powerful.

Complex, yes. Powerful, no.

13 – The Rapture Is Imminent!
Paul even told the Thessalonians that it was a mistake! The rapture is NOT imminent!
The apostles and the early Church all believed in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. We know that because they believed Jesus could come at any moment, yet they knew they weren’t in the Tribulation.
We find the expectation of Jesus’ coming all over the letters of Peter, Paul, and John. The writings of the earliest of the church fathers carry a strong expectation of the Lord’s coming for the Church. This simply isn’t what we would find if they believed in a mid- or post-tribulation rapture.
They took Jesus’ words literally and seriously when He said, “Watch and be ready, for in such an hour as you think not, the Son of Man comes.” [3]
Finally, Revelation 3:10
In Revelation 3:10-11, Jesus promised the Church at Philadelphia –

More fabrication. We are preserved, not removed from the hour of trial. Nobody was ever removed from their trials.

 

[newname]

.

That's an outright fabricated lie, and a heretical abomination. For centuries the Day of the Lord was the one and only day that begins at His return/Parousia the END of tribulation..

Isaiah 2:12-22 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 For the day of the Lord of hosts
Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
Upon everything lifted up—
And it shall be brought low—
13 Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up,
And upon all the oaks of Bashan;
14 Upon all the high mountains,
And upon all the hills that are lifted up;
15 Upon every high tower,
And upon every fortified wall;
16 Upon all the ships of Tarshish,
And upon all the beautiful sloops.
17 The [a]loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low;
The Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
18 But the idols [b]He shall utterly abolish.
19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks,
And into the caves of the [c]earth,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily.
20 In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver
And his idols of gold,
Which they made, each for himself to worship,
To the moles and bats,
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks,
And into the crags of the rugged rocks,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily.

 

[newname]

Tribulation will purify the church.

There is no need to be purified by tribulation if the church is purified by His blood. Church does go through persecution before it happens. When the bride is purified and without spot or wrinkle, she gets raptured.

 

[newname]

WOW! Really? It makes no sense whatsoever to me to think that they believe that supports pre-trib.

It says if they convert, they won't go though great tribulation.

 

[saginon]

There is no need to be purified by tribulation if the church is purified by His blood. Church does go through persecution before it happens. When the bride is purified and without spot or wrinkle, she gets raptured.

Can you quote one verse that shows the Lord returns BEFORE the tribulation? If the rapture is the sensational event you all claim it is, then there must be at least ONE verse showing he returns BEFORE tribulation.

Muslim's believe they purify themselves in several different ways. Even by blowing themselves up.

Jews believe they purify themselves in certain rituals before pasover.

Tribulation will bring unbelievers to the Lord and bring Christians both weak and strong closer to Him. "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."

Tribulation always brings people closer to God.

Why would God remove the Church before the earth goes into the most troublesome times the earth would ever endure, when He, and unbelievers, need His church most? To Remove his servants before would be counter-productive to His Kingdom.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

I'm very impressed at the amount of people who have zero of a hermeneutic and who have fallen for this deceitful, contradictory, completely made up doctrine of pretribulationism.

What trouble do people have understanding the words of Jesus?

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,....And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Brother-Paul]

22Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Reasons to Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture | Calvary Chapel Oxnard

calvaryoxnard.org

An excellent explanation which makes more sense to me than the mid or post-trib explanations.

Bless you

 

[newname]

Can you quote one verse that shows the Lord returns BEFORE the tribulation? If the rapture is the sensational event you all claim it is, then there must be at least ONE verse showing he returns BEFORE tribulation.

Muslim's believe they purify themselves in several different ways. Even by blowing themselves up.

Jews believe they purify themselves in certain rituals before pasover.

Christians - they don't need purification. "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."

Tribulation always brings people closer to God.

Why would God remove the Church before the earth goes into the most troublesome times the earth would ever endure, when He, and unbelievers, need His church most? To Remove his servants before would be counter-productive to His Kingdom.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

I'm very impressed at the amount of people who have zero of a hermeneutic and who have fallen for this deceitful, contradictory, completely made up doctrine of pretribulationism.

What trouble do people have understanding the words of Jesus?

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,....And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

He does not return before the tribulation on the Mount of Olives. He just picks up His bride. No need to come to earth. We go there.
He did not come to earth with Eliah and Enoch. He was in them already on earth.
It's when the dead get raised. The dead from the trib get raised and reign with Christ, but the other dead ( there are also saints who died ages before that time) do not get raised then. So they must get raised another time, before that, because being changed in a twinkle of an eye does not precede the raising of the dead. The ppl raised when Jesus died, I wonder if that's somewhere in the O.T.

 

[saginon]

It says if they convert, they won't go though great tribulation.

You need to show me where the page says that.

 

[saginon]

He does not return before the tribulation on the Mount of Olives. He just picks up His bride. No need to come to earth. We go there.

You can't see the fabrication in that? Returning to the earths 'clouds' is NOT a return??? He returns TWICE according to pre-trib, and that is a pipe dream.

 

[saginon]

An excellent explanation which makes more sense to me than the mid or post-trib explanations.

Bless you

A terrible explanation that makes no sense to me at all.

 

[saginon]

He does not return before the tribulation on the Mount of Olives. He just picks up His bride. No need to come to earth. We go there.
He did not come to earth with Eliah and Enoch. He was in them already on earth.

I will forever shake my head in awe over how people believe all this fabricated stuff.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Can you quote one verse that shows the Lord returns BEFORE the tribulation? If the rapture is the sensational event you all claim it is, then there must be at least ONE verse showing he returns BEFORE tribulation.

Muslim's believe they purify themselves in several different ways. Even by blowing themselves up.

Jews believe they purify themselves in certain rituals before pasover.

Tribulation will bring unbelievers to the Lord and bring Christians both weak and strong closer to Him. "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."

Tribulation always brings people closer to God.

Why would God remove the Church before the earth goes into the most troublesome times the earth would ever endure, when He, and unbelievers, need His church most? To Remove his servants before would be counter-productive to His Kingdom.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

I'm very impressed at the amount of people who have zero of a hermeneutic and who have fallen for this deceitful, contradictory, completely made up doctrine of pretribulationism.

What trouble do people have understanding the words of Jesus?

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,....And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Greeting brother

As we know scripture tells us somethings directly and some things indirectly, we are told to search the scriptures, it will reveal the Truth in The Word.

If you search born again you will find it a limited number of times, because you haven't found the verses that say, new creation, or other scriptures relating to it. To understand born again you have to read all of John 3:1-21, you also have to understand the new creation, by knowing these you are not deceived when you read, call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved. You have to be Born Again. On this I am just scratching the surface, it is easy to misread scriptures because we haven't read related scripture.

So regarding the current topic of The Rapture, whether pre-trib., mid-trib., or post-trib. We have to look at all scriptures relating to it. The point I am getting to here it is no use you saying show me a verse 'that says' the Rapture will be Pre-trib.

Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Taking this and a lot more verses we have looked at, I cannot see how anyone can come to the conclusion that The Rapture will be post-trib.

Is God going to let His Bride, The Church, the Saved believers suffer the tribulations and woes that are to be dished out on those who have rejected Jesus, rejected God. No way is he going to allow truly saved believers to experience these things, no way is he going to let us go through... hiding in caves and rocks in the mountains, to avoid the terrible wrath of God. The Wrath is the punishment for none believers that is very clear.

Luke 21:34-36 (NKJV)
34 "But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

God would not set a snare for those He has saved.

Bless you

 

[Brother-Paul]

A terrible explanation that makes no sense to me at all.

That is because your mind is closed to any other explanation, through out I have said, I believe it will be the pre-trib Rapture, but throughout I have also made clear I have an open mind. I keep an open mind for the reason mentioned above, another scripture may pop up to make me thing different, this has not happened and I have carefully read all your comments brother.

For me this concludes; we have discussed the topic well, some scriptures I wasn't aware of connected to this topic, I have considered them also. I cannot find any explanation that better fits the scriptures than pre-trib Rapture.

I respect your views brother, it has been great sharing in fellowship with you, I pray no matter what conclusion you have on the topic that you keep the timing option open and be ready and watching as scripture tells us to do, because no one knows the day and hour our Lord will return. My concern, maybe not for yourself my friend, is that some who follow the idea of post-trib. Rapture will not be ready when the Lord returns, and will be like the 5 foolish virgins and not the five sensible virgins.

May the Lord Bless you

Peace be with you.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I will forever shake my head in awe over how people believe all this fabricated stuff.

The Rapture will no doubt occur pre-trib, I believe. The Church being removed at the twinkling of an eye, without warning the Saved will meet with the Lord in the air, and go to the 'Current Heaven' with Him.

Christ will Return in Glory from the 'Current Heaven' at the end of the Tribulation Period, He will defeat the devil, He will return onto the Mount of Olives, Mount Olivet, there will be a massive earth quake

Zechariah 14:4-5 (NKJV)
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

The Rapture coming first, before the Wrath of God is poured out in the Tribulation Period(s)

His Return in Glory when He sets up His rule for 1000 years, the Millennium, being at the END of the Tribulation periods.