JerryfromMass
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Or this one?
Are you a Christian if you don't believe in the eternal Triune nature of God?
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Hi thanks for the reply. I would offer.
There is no power in "signs" they simply make a person wonder. How far? How long? How much? Will I be on time? They are not the end of the matter. . They are a shadow of the substance.
Hospital 10 miles ahead exit 27. Signs cannot heal.
No such thing as "sign gift" . . .spiritual unseen gifts yes they are listed .
It was the faithless generation, (generation means beginning ). . The generation of no faith coming from God as it is written, no faith to please God who works in us .That faithlessness began with Adam the evil or corrupted dying generation . The redeemed generation. . by Christ.
Unredeemed mankind's the evil generation Their goal was make Jesus into a circus seal . . do a miracle then we will believe.
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
In that way they mock the "spirit of judgment” making a senseless noise falling backward slain in the spirit, the evidence of their wondering. And as we are informed of the law or foundation of the doctrine of the "tongue of God's prophecy" (Isaiah 28) Yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1 Corhtitains 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
It was because of strange fire (personal self edifying touch) that they were consumed by fire . The baptism of fire cleanses removing the dross daily.
Exodus 29:3-5 King James Version (KJV) And thou shalt put them into one basket, and bring them in the basket, with the bullock and the two rams.And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water. And thou shalt take the garments, and put upon Aaron the coat, and the robe of the ephod, and the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the curious girdle of the ephod:
The order was passed on to the new kingdom of priest men and woman from all nations holding out the gospel . Today if one has a desire to be a member of the priesthood they can perform the ceremonial shadow .
Fire like water is used to represent the spirit of judgment of the spirit of cleansing. Water or fire coming down inspired from heaven defines the doctrines of God. They can destroy or cleanse.
Like the water of the word we are commanded to wash our wife’s with as Christ washes the church to edify his unseen glory not edify the church.
Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
[/QUOTE]And we are told the gifts aren't for self-edification, but rather church edification. [/QUOTE]
When the apostles spoke prophecy the word of God it was not to edify themselves but him unseen .Some do edify the apostles as false apostles in that way .
Let all things be done for edification of our God who works in us with us
B-A-C
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Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Mark 16:17 "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
1Cor 14:22; So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Mark 16:17 "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
1Cor 14:22; So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
BunnyOnion
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I think too it ought to be observed, as to answer the OP question, that of course one is born again and saved by God through his free irrevocable gift of faith and saving grace, because Jesus pre-exists the man made doctrine of the trinity teaching.
Because Jesus never spoke of a triune nature.
www.ucg.org
Because Jesus never spoke of a triune nature.
The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine
Few understand how the Trinity doctrine came to be accepted - several centuries after the Bible was completed! Yet its roots go back much farther in history.
www.ucg.org
@BunnyOnion -- I clicked into the article you included. And ' oh, my gracious'. That the trinity is a Man-made teaching?!
The trinity is seen throughout Scripture.
The rise of the RCC is incredible -- but it has no bearing on Scripture. The Protestant Reformation came to be Because some of the educated men within the RCC were reading Scripture for the 1st time and saw how wrong it's / RCC really was.
The trinity IS God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. It's Doctrine. It makes our salvation possible.
The Counsel of Nicea was convened to debate various areas Of Scripture -- what was true and what Wasn't. A bunch of Men were debating Scripture.
'we' need to let Scripture speak for itself. Which is does very nicely.
The trinity is seen throughout Scripture.
The rise of the RCC is incredible -- but it has no bearing on Scripture. The Protestant Reformation came to be Because some of the educated men within the RCC were reading Scripture for the 1st time and saw how wrong it's / RCC really was.
The trinity IS God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. It's Doctrine. It makes our salvation possible.
The Counsel of Nicea was convened to debate various areas Of Scripture -- what was true and what Wasn't. A bunch of Men were debating Scripture.
'we' need to let Scripture speak for itself. Which is does very nicely.
Baptism by immersion -- is something born again believers do After their salvation -- to show others around them -- either in a baptistry Or a lake or river -- what they already believe in their heart. That they believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and was buried and rose again on the 3rd day. And that That gives us 'new' life in Christ. Thus -- a person -- the new convert -- is lowered into the body of water -- completely immersed and then raised again. 'buried with Christ and raised to newness in life.'.
It's not part Of salvation, but it Is to show what has already taken place in the person's heart. They are seen as being Christ - followers.
In many countries -- when a person Is baptized -- they are disowned by their families. Or -- these days -- martyred for their faith.
So -- to suggest that it's an Old Testament 'ritual' would not be correct. It was only done in the New Testament.
People in the Old Testament placed their faith in the future work of Jesus Christ who'd been prophesied to be born later in history. 'We' place Our faith in history that we've read about but weren't around to witness. Or reject Him. The same in the Old Testament -- they either accepted or rejected what they heard. There were all kinds of man-made gods in the Old Testament that people worshipped. Some worshiped Both -- their idols And Jehovah.
And we do pretty much the same thing Now days.
And, yes, Any gifts given by the Holy Spirit upon salvation -- well -- the only way a person Receives gifts -- are for the edification of the church body.
I think too it ought to be observed, as to answer the OP question, that of course one is born again and saved by God through his free irrevocable gift of faith and saving grace, because Jesus pre-exists the man made doctrine of the trinity teaching.
Because Jesus never spoke of a triune nature.
The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine
Few understand how the Trinity doctrine came to be accepted - several centuries after the Bible was completed! Yet its roots go back much farther in history.
Three is a metaphor used in parables to denote the end of a matter as to whatever is in view. Two represents the Father working together with the Son in perfect harmony with one another .The government of peace.
Three can be used but two is more befitting as the witness of one God .The father not seen working in the son of man seen.
The dynamic duel. Two is the witness of God. Law and the prophets, or Moses and Elisa (sola scriptura) used to represent the two witnesses that becomes one as the greater witness than that of man .The same two in Revelation 11 that will be silenced or killed when God sends a famine for hearing and therefore believing in our Holy Father not seen .
He set that up with Moses who represents the law Giver (unseen God) His name Moses signifies the power to drawn mankind from amongst other nations as in no man can come to the son unless the father does the work of drawing. Aaron the other part of the dynamic duo.
Exodus 4: 15-16 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.
Again a picture of our unseen Holy Father signified as Moses working with Aaron the son seen ressurection power called holiness of the spirit . No power attributed to the flesh.
The same would apply to davit and Jonathon a dynamic duo or Deborah and Barak etc. a whole kingdom of priests men and woman prophets from all the nations of the world.
Judges 4:9 And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the Lord shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh
BunnyOnion
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I don't think Athanasius went to that extent to arrive at his creation of the trinity doctrine.
We follow Christ who did not teach God was three. Our God is one.
Just as I am not three separate and distinct women when I am a wife, an employee, and a Christian.
I am one woman. The same with God.
God is holy spirit. And Jesus was God with us. His entire being was of and from God. Who formed a male child and begat himself upon Mary to deliver the new covenant to the world.
He and the father are one, not two.
BunnyOnion
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Yes, it does. And it does not say our God is three.
Nor did Jesus say, I and the father are two.
Hear oh Israel, our God our God is one.
B-A-C
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That's the whole point of the trinity. One God, three persons.
One egg, three parts - shell. egg-white. yolk.
Tricycle - one cycle, three wheels.
US government - one government, 3 branches - judicial, executive, legislative.
One God - three persons - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Gen 1:26; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Waggles
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Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the LORD out of heaven.
19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
(WEB) Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of the sky.
(LSV) and YHWH has rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH, from the heavens;
(YLT) and Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens;
19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
(WEB) Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of the sky.
(LSV) and YHWH has rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH, from the heavens;
(YLT) and Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens;
BunnyOnion
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People are free to be Trinitarians. As previously mentioned and linked, that doctrine has a genesis that arrived many generations after Christ.
Yes The Son and the Father are one made up of two attributes . God is not a man as us.
BunnyOnion
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God is a spirit. Jesus was spirit made flesh. Flesh, bone, all that makes up the human form are both of and from God. As are all things that exist.
The trinity = God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Holy Spirit.
And, yes, God is Spirit -- Jesus Christ is the part of the Godhead / trinity / who came into this world to die on the cross. The God / man.
John 10:30 I and My Father are One.
In Matthew -- Immanual = God with us.
B-A-C explained it very well.
And, yes, God is Spirit -- Jesus Christ is the part of the Godhead / trinity / who came into this world to die on the cross. The God / man.
John 10:30 I and My Father are One.
In Matthew -- Immanual = God with us.
B-A-C explained it very well.
I would offer. God is not a man as us and neither is there any infallible fleshly umpire called a daysman (Pope) that stands between God not seen and mankind seen as us.
Even Jesus the Son of man would not stand in the place of the Fathers hidden glory. . . when called good teaching Master as Lord .Jesus said only one is good. . God not seen. They are the words of agreement that the father gave to his prophet the Son of man Jesus the chief apostle who cried out. . not as I will but you the one with the power to bring it to the end of the matter.
He remains without mother or father beginning of spirit life or end thereof. No genealogy in the God head .No DNA .We simply do not know Christ after the rudiments and philosophies of men as oral traditions .He cannot be found under a microscope or through a telescope. In that way we are the temple of Emanuel (God with us) not made with human hands.
Hebrews 7: 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
We were created with temporal spirit coming from the Father of all spirits. He breathed into the clay of the field spirit life. That life was subject to the letter of the law death.(temporal)
If a person does not receive a new born again spirit that will never die they will not be raised on the last day and given their new incorruptible body. Those who have not been given a new born again spirit will not rise on the last day.
In the new heavens and earth those who have not the Spirit of Christ they will not be remembered or ever come to mind. It is like they were never born the first time.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
In that way some promise a false hope in life beyond the grave of suffering with no body or spirit .Like purgatory as some sort of continue suffering with no end in sight. Some would call that hell . Those dead without a spirit have no means to suffer. That idea simply does despite to the grace of Christ in respect to the fullness in the end even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (No underground breathing)
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
And?
Actually the physical body is temporary -- the Spirit exists Forever. Either in heaven or hell. The born again believer will receive a new , glorified body that Will live forever.
The person dying without salvation -- the account of the rich man and Lazarus -- both of them -- After death -- were aware of their surroundings and the rich man in hell Did feel pain / discomfort.
The temporal spirit is subject to law, (thou shall not or your whole person body soul mind) will die temporal body that the temporal spirit dwells in subject to the same law . Flesh is not spirit. While the life of the flesh is in the blood. . spirit is the essence of life not seen .Can’t see a spirit.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
I have viewed the doctrine of hell that way for some time. Not a salvation issue but more of how can we hear what the Spirit says as his understandings to the churches or Christians.
If the spirit does not die. Then that which the father of lies declared "you shall surely not die " would be the gospel .
It is an appointment to all who live in a corrupted dying body will face death once never to rise to new life. It can be seen I believe in many ways. One I think of would be with Peter used as an example of a serial denier as one who served a law of the fathers, a hierarchy of men that lord it over the faith of the non-venerable . .In his jealousy of the apostle John he went to town and started a new oral tradition of men (I heard it through the grape vine) that John would not die in agreement with the father of lies in the Garden of Eden demonstration.
Yet Jesus did not say he would not die. Jesus said if every time he to dispel that kind of lies that we would need a bigger planet to hold the volumes of books that could have been written. One warning not to go above it is written as the testimony of God should be enough.
I would also offer the parable in Luke that teaches “no man can serve two teaching masters” seeing one is our good teaching Master our father not seen. That parable amongst many all work towards the goal that no man can serve two Good teaching masters , Is not about defining the principle of hell but is teaches no man can serve two Good teaching Master as one Lord of lord and King of Kings
The parable. . No man can serve two teaching master as one Lord.
Luke 14: 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
There the Holy Spirit compares the wisdom or power of God to the wisdom of men using mammon to represent the wisdom of this world .1 John the lust of the eye the lust of the flesh the worker of false pride .
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Continuing in the parable.
The wisdom of God sola scriptura (all things written in the law and the prophets
Luke 14: 16-17 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
But Abraham is used to represent the unseen bosom of our heavenly father. He is used comfort Lazarus by the grace of Christ. Then the key to understanding the parable “there can no communication with the things of God .Sola scriptura (all things written in the law and prophets ) and those of men who seek after necromancy seeking the dead for the living . Oral I heard it through the grape vine traditions of men never become the tradition of God (all things written in the law and prophets)
Luke 14: 25-26 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Twice to emphasize the point the Holy Spirit confirmed one source of faith (sola scriptura) .And replied to that kind opposing understanding that even if one would raised from the dead they would still harden their hearts and seek after necromancy that shows there was no light of the gospel . Isaiah 8:20
Luke 14: 29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
BunnyOnion
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I accept you believe that.
I however do not deny the will and power of God that came into the world as a flesh and blood human, born from his mother's womb, lived as a newborn and grew into a man to deliver the good news.
And bleed on the cross when crucified in order to seal the new covenant for all time.
