Atheism

[ItinerantLurker]

So. . .it's okay to open a thread about how to convert atheists. . .but when one (well. . .agnostic at least) honestly asks what evidence and/or arguments you could use to convert them your reply is to look elsewhere?




Lurker

 

[s.i.e.]

Lurker: who is "you"? I didn't start the thread. Perhaps you should ask the starter of the thread if he can give you all the evidence you're looking for, if you believe his motive for starting such a thread was as you believe it to be?

 

[Beans]

Hi Lurker. I'm sorry you seem to be getting the cold shoulder here. I think the truth is that you are asking some very tough questions and a lot of us do not have answers that will satisfy you. That does not mean that we don't believe in a creator force greater than ourselves, but perhaps that we lack the to communicate it to you. Our answers may not be your answers.
I don't know if you ever say that movie called Contact, with Jodie Foster. That brought out some very interesting issues of faith and non belief and how difficult it can be to explain to or convince others about subjective or unmeasurable experiences.

You asked me some questions a while back and I never got around to answering them. Sorry. I will have a go now.

Lurker - Precisely, which implies that our current doctrines and theologies are also effects of different political and popular trends. How else can we explain the lack of a definite and consistent understanding of most issues from the church over the last two thousand years?

Yes, you are right. That is why I am pointing you to the teachings of Jesus which have remained fairly consistent for the past 2000 years! The "Church" is political, but God's kingdom is invisible.

Lurker - While I believe that Christ's teachings do indeed deserve much profound respect and admiration - I think this is due to their being an amazing and honest attempt to understand a meaningful altruism and not because Jesus was God. I also agree that the records we have of those teachings are very imperfect, of questionable authorship, and probably contain quite a bit of ad hoc material.

Yes, that may be the case, but as you say, they still contain some amazing material and represent an honest attempt to understand meaningful altruism! You don't need to be a believer to see that what Jesus is recorded as teaching was something pretty special.

Now, I think that you would agree with me when I say that the biggest turn off from Christianity is people talking theory and not trying to find practical applications.
Now, I put it to you that there is nothing that says that you can't experiment with the teachings of Jesus, to see if what he says really works in practice. You may find that you don't actually need all the answers before you set out on your journey.

Lurker - While that does make sense to me, I don't see why this should be exclusive to Christianity, as if atheism and all other belief systems could not offer any more meaningful goals other than "survival". If we are, to quote Sagan, "the custodians of life's meaning" then what would stop us from finding a worthy goal without faith in Christ?

That's fine. I'm sure there are many many places to find a more meaningful existence than mere survival. But I am left wondering if your search for a more meaningful existence alone or one that is specifically without Christ?
Love is a common theme that runs through just about every religion on earth. And there is a very good reason why that is. Because love is very important for us as individuals and as a species. Simply because if we don't learn how to love each other we will destroy each other.

If becoming a Hindu or an Atheist helps you to love other people then that's wonderful and I wish you well. But that is not the same conclusion that I came to and it does not need to be. It takes all kinds to make up a world. We need to respect the fact that each person must ultimately find and walk their own path.

 

[s.i.e.]

Love is a common theme that runs through just about every religion on earth. .

Beans: that could not be more patently untrue.

If becoming a Hindu or an Atheist helps you to love other people then that's wonderful and I wish you well. But that is not the same conclusion that I came to

How has that flavor of relativism allowed you to find conviction on much of anything? Either there is truth, or there is no truth...but that kind of relativism tells me that you have chosen it because "that's what you concluded"...which doesn't really tell me much of anything, if I knew nothing of Jesus prior to hearing your opinion.


"I like licorice ice-cream...but that's just me. Vanilla might be really good to, if it fits your taste-buds. Give it a try, and see how it works! I'm sure you'll find something you like."


Beans: you may need more stakes in your tent when the wind blows bro!?

 

[Beans]

Actually S.I.E. I was not talking to you. What happened to Lurker?

I know that human nature fights against love, but that does not mean that the basic tenants of most religions are not based on love, and that it is a common theme. How is that "patently untrue"?

How has that flavor of relativism allowed you to find conviction on much of anything? Either there is truth, or there is no truth...but that kind of relativism tells me that you have chosen it because "that's what you concluded"...which doesn't really tell me much of anything, if I knew nothing of Jesus prior to hearing your opinion.

Excuse me? Talk about jumping to conclusions!
Lurker was saying that he was not finding the answers in Christianity, why be defensive about that? I was asking him to look into the teachings of Jesus and I have confidence that he will find more truth in them than any other religion. But you can't just bible bash people into seeing that. You have to lead them with reason.

"I like licorice ice-cream...but that's just me. Vanilla might be really good to, if it fits your taste-buds. Give it a try, and see how it works! I'm sure you'll find something you like."

Hey Pal. Do you think Christianity is any different? Are people really interested in Truth or do they just look for something that's comfortable?

"I like this church...but that's just me. That church might be really good to, if it fits your taste-buds. Give it a try, and see how it works! I'm sure you'll find something you like."

Beans: you may need more stakes in your tent when the wind blows bro!?

Actually bro, it may be safer to just pull up stakes and trust the wind! (John 3:8)

 

[strages]

sorry, this one was sent twice.

 

[strages]

*sigh* if you use only directly observable facts, of course you can't prove God exists. In fact, you can't even prove anything past the end of your nose! (well, maybe a little bit further) Using your argument, you can't even prove that I exist! Despite me typing, if you can't observe me, apparently I don't exist. Use some reason namith, when you responded to "The universe exists. Is it eternal or did it have a beginning?" and said nobody knows?!?!? If something is here, something made it. Everything had something that made it. I'll use evolution for this one, if the universe is in a cycle (one universe made another) then what about the first universe? Something outside of time must have made it. I'll call this being God. Does this make sense to you?

 

[Kit Carson]

Well I have a very simple answer to Atheism. For one thing I do not worry about it at all. If I tell you God exists and you tell me no he does not, I will simply ask God to show you that he does. End of story. At some point in your life God will speak to you. You see he tells me this and I believe it. I have seen it happen. Maybe not today or even this year, but it will happen. So I do not get involved in conflict with some person who wishes to challenge God. As you see it also takes faith to believe God does not exist, but it is an empty faith, as Faith in what is real will eventually prove to you it is so. So now I just grin and say......yea..yea........OK. I will just ask God to sneak up on you. Lol!

So what is the purpose of life anyway?? Well God tells us we cannot understand his purpose, he teaches us that in the story of Job. Job had faith and stuck to his guns, and still did not understand the full meaning of the why, he just took it on faith.

I think we are a part of all, that we are created to become more like God in our lives, we have the choice to or not. We are like a butterfly and the cocoon hatches and we become more , and later more.

To me this is the purpose of life. To live, learn and to strive for the day we will know all.

It has all became very simple to me.

One thing you have to watch out for is the cleverness of your opponent. If you are not careful they will cause you to doubt and question.....so for me, I run from this stuff. I run to God and say, Hey .........Help. lol! You go talk to them. Please..........And he will when the time is right.

Kit.

 

[Beans]

Well I have a very simple answer to Atheism. For one thing I do not worry about it at all. If I tell you God exists and you tell me no he does not, I will simply ask God to show you that he does. End of story. At some point in your life God will speak to you. You see he tells me this and I believe it. I have seen it happen. Maybe not today or even this year, but it will happen. So I do not get involved in conflict with some person who wishes to challenge God. As you see it also takes faith to believe God does not exist, but it is an empty faith, as Faith in what is real will eventually prove to you it is so. So now I just grin and say......yea..yea........OK. I will just ask God to sneak up on you. Lol!

So what is the purpose of life anyway?? Well God tells us we cannot understand his purpose, he teaches us that in the story of Job. Job had faith and stuck to his guns, and still did not understand the full meaning of the why, he just took it on faith.

I think we are a part of all, that we are created to become more like God in our lives, we have the choice to or not. We are like a butterfly and the cocoon hatches and we become more , and later more.

To me this is the purpose of life. To live, learn and to strive for the day we will know all.

It has all became very simple to me.

One thing you have to watch out for is the cleverness of your opponent. If you are not careful they will cause you to doubt and question.....so for me, I run from this stuff. I run to God and say, Hey .........Help. lol! You go talk to them. Please..........And he will when the time is right.

Kit.

Hi Kit. Yes, I agree that sometimes we are just not going to be able to reach some people, and when we recognise that we are not getting anywhere, then we should leave them for the Lord to deal with in his time. I have also found that talking to athiests takes a lot of honesty and self examination of your own beliefs. Athiests are not usually stupid people and they have spent a lot of time thinking through the issues before they confront you on something. I know some athiests can be pretty hurtful and destructive, I'm not talking about opening yourself up to them. I'm talking about people who have genuine reasons for not believing and who are open to at least hearing your side. Even if we cannot find answers that will satisfy them, just sharing the process that you went through to find God, including all your doubts and fears, can really help someone understand the genuineness of your faith.
Whereas just saying "YOU MUST BELIEVE!" is not going to cut it with them.

 

[Aida Agraan]

All be honest I don't believe in a lot of what the bible says and My faith in god is sometimes completely not there or it's 70% there. I've been up and down with this since I was 13 and I'm now 19 and about last year I only considered myself as an atheist I've been through most of these kinds of questions before and always had a way to answer them. Some of these questions I haven't seen before or looked at them in that way I think they're pretty interesting and could work well for someone who is in an argument with an atheist. I found them kinda hard to reply back to.

 

[my_little_pony]

Yes, that may be the case, but as you say, they still contain some amazing material and represent an honest attempt to understand meaningful altruism! You don't need to be a believer to see that what Jesus is recorded as teaching was something pretty special

What a fantastic quote, and something I feel very strongly myself.

The question is, regardless of a belief in God or Jesus' divinity, did Jesus have ANY teachings worth following? And if so, what are those teachings and WHY are they worth following?

For example, what did Jesus teach about love, money, sincerity, hypocrisy, and fear?

Is there any atheist who can really say that his/her lack of belief in God inspires him to reject a teaching that he should help someone in need? Most likely not, and to do so would betray an irrational bias against something, like being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

If Jesus had any teaching worth following, based on the merits of the teachings themselves, why not follow them?

So, can we hear from the atheists, if there is ANY teaching of Jesus which they feel is reasonable or worth applying? I'm not asking for anyone to convert, but just to discuss the merits of his teachings. We could even do it on the basis that he is not divine, but simply a very wise man, if you'd like.

This is not to say that I am compromising on my own understanding of his divinity, but simply acknowledging that, based on what I've seen, Jesus would far rather have people applying his teachings than arguing over his divinity.

In some cases, I believe, it is THROUGH the application of those teachings that "non-believers" could be inspired to believe. After all, it would be silly to ask someone to buy a car on the basis that it looks very special. The buyer should test drive it first, if they are skeptical of it's integrity.

BUT, the "test drive" should include ALL the features of the car, as the manufacturer instructs, and not based on traditions, bias, or myths about what the car should be like while driving.

In order to do that,though, we need a fairly deep investigation of what the manufacturer really told us to do with the car.

So, in case anyone missed it...what did Jesus tell us to do?

 

[Beans]

All be honest I don't believe in a lot of what the bible says and My faith in god is sometimes completely not there or it's 70% there. I've been up and down with this since I was 13 and I'm now 19 and about last year I only considered myself as an atheist I've been through most of these kinds of questions before and always had a way to answer them. Some of these questions I haven't seen before or looked at them in that way I think they're pretty interesting and could work well for someone who is in an argument with an atheist. I found them kinda hard to reply back to.

Hi Aida. Thank you for your very honest and open post.
I think there is a big difference between a "clever" argument and a good argument. In the sense that people can be very good at coming up with clever ways to "defeat" the arguments of their enemies or critics, but a good argument should take into account the truth on both sides of the debate, including the weaknesses of our own position.
Grandstanding and point scoring are not (IMO) very convincing, but honest searching discussion is much more compelling and convincing to someone who is looking for answers beyond the usual cliques.

I hope you don't mind me asking, Aida, but what do you feel made you become an atheist?
Do you think you need more evidence that God exists or is it something else?

Love Beans

 

[Aida Agraan]

Well I don't fully see myself as an atheist and well I obviously am not because I'm struggling, and if I didn't believe in god their would be no struggle. I was at one point in my life an atheist because I had punched so many holes into my faith with questions and when all I ever got back was silence and more questions there wasn't any faith left in me so I just belivied in one thing which was science. It it sounds like such a cold and lonely word and it was at first but that's a different story. Soon like I did with my faith I dug deeper and deeper into the world around us and I found that the more and more I knew the less I understood and I found that I didn't know anything at all and hope that makes sence lol. There's just so many possibility and answers it can drive a person nuts but now because I've seen both sides of having faith and then relying on nothing but what the world has to offer and the fact that theres always going to be other possibilities and questions. But thats what makes us so human is that we are thinkers. It's natural for us to be inquisitive. I don't expect to get my answers till I'm dead but for now Im just going to believe that things are incredibly complicated.

 

[my_little_pony]

I don't expect to get my answers till I'm dead but for now Im just going to believe that things are incredibly complicated.

Well, that may depend on your questions.

I was at one point in my life an atheist because I had punched so many holes into my faith with questions and when all I ever got back was silence and more questions

I feel I went through something similar. I never got to the point of referring to myself as an atheist, but in my attitudes I was probably one off and on depending on how the circumstances around me affected my attitude.

Most of the time I believed there must be something "up" there but I just got so frustrated with the whole church scene that I stop caring about it.

Years later I met some people who were preaching about the teachings of Jesus, but in a way I had never heard before, and which I liked.

They emphasized the practical application of Jesus' teachings and taught against the religious aspect of looking/talking like a Christian.

Their emphasis mostly revolved around working for love and money issues. I found the answers I was looking for, not by praying for a voice from Heaven or whatever, but by actually doing what Jesus said to do.

I believe this same kind of approach is what is needed for everyone to get a greater appreciation for the values of the Kingdom of Heaven or to find answers to what they are looking for regarding God.

In the context of God sending his son down here to Earth as the ultimate representation of what Heaven is like it makes sense that, in order to understand God, we need to do what his representative told us to do.

But, even for atheists, I don't see this as a problem, because most of what Jesus taught centers around showing love for one another, and I've never heard an atheist claim that showing love is against his/her beliefs as an atheist.

Even if you don't believe he is divine or whatever, the teachings are still there and are extremely relevant and practical.

 

[Beans]

Well I don't fully see myself as an atheist and well I obviously am not because I'm struggling, and if I didn't believe in god their would be no struggle.

Well that's good to know! I think you're right! If you're struggling you must still be alive! :thumbs_up

I was at one point in my life an atheist because I had punched so many holes into my faith with questions and when all I ever got back was silence and more questions there wasn't any faith left in me so I just belivied in one thing which was science. It it sounds like such a cold and lonely word and it was at first but that's a different story. Soon like I did with my faith I dug deeper and deeper into the world around us and I found that the more and more I knew the less I understood and I found that I didn't know anything at all and hope that makes sence lol.

My parents actually raised me as an atheist, but after having accepted science's version of history as "fact" for most of my childhood, when I was about 15, I realised that it did not answer many questions for me at all. Fundamental questions like "why am I here?" and "what is my purpose?". I also wanted to know what the purpose of the whole planet was, but all science could tell me was "survival". The purpose of life is just to survive? No way! That just doesn't cut it for me. We are more than just animals fighting for survival, we have a conscience and a higher purpose. Jesus showed me that our purpose is to love each other and to rise above our animal nature, something that science could never have done, because science teaches that all there is, is the animal nature.

There's just so many possibility and answers it can drive a person nuts but now because I've seen both sides of having faith and then relying on nothing but what the world has to offer and the fact that theres always going to be other possibilities and questions. But thats what makes us so human is that we are thinkers. It's natural for us to be inquisitive. I don't expect to get my answers till I'm dead but for now Im just going to believe that things are incredibly complicated.

No, I don't think it is complicated at all. It's only complicated if you want it to be. Love is so simple that even a child can understand it. "Love your neighbour as you love yourself". That's all you need to know. If you believe it, then you will start living it, and that's faith.

Love Beans

 

[Mr. Traverse]

My parents actually raised me as an atheist, but after having accepted science's version of history as "fact" for most of my childhood, when I was about 15, I realised that it did not answer many questions for me at all. Fundamental questions like "why am I here?" and "what is my purpose?". I also wanted to know what the purpose of the whole planet was, but all science could tell me was "survival". The purpose of life is just to survive? No way! That just doesn't cut it for me. We are more than just animals fighting for survival, we have a conscience and a higher purpose. Jesus showed me that our purpose is to love each other and to rise above our animal nature, something that science could never have done, because science teaches that all there is, is the animal nature.

Science doesn't deal with what ought to be, it deals with what is. However, it can inform our positions of what ought to be by giving us a better understanding of what is.

Also, just because science doesn't have the answers to certain questions, doesn't mean we should believe anything and everything without scrutiny. It's OK to say "I don't know.".

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[Beans]

Science doesn't deal with what ought to be, it deals with what is. However, it can inform our positions of what ought to be by giving us a better understanding of what is.

Hi Trav. Thanks for that. I guess that's what I was talking about. Science does not give us meaning as individuals. It can only show us the physical world, which some people say means that the spiritual world does not exist. But our existence has a lot more purpose than mere survival and procreation of the species.
If we believed that we would do something rediculous like enslave ourselves in meaningless jobs in order to survive!

Also, just because science doesn't have the answers to certain questions, doesn't mean we should believe anything and everything without scrutiny. It's OK to say "I don't know."

Absolutely! I think it would be foolish to believe everything that the scientists tell us, just because they are scientists! I agree, we should scrutinise their conclusions about the purpose (or lack thereof) of the human race and life in general. Too narrow minded, in my view.

 

[Mr. Traverse]

Hi Trav. Thanks for that. I guess that's what I was talking about. Science does not give us meaning as individuals. It can only show us the physical world, which some people say means that the spiritual world does not exist.

Questions of existence are scientific questions. One needs to define "spiritual world" before we can even adequately discuss it.

But our existence has a lot more purpose than mere survival and procreation of the species.

Not objectively (at least not in the sense that you use the word "purpose").

If we believed that we would do something rediculous like enslave ourselves in meaningless jobs in order to survive!

Maybe some people define their purpose as occupying a meaningless job in order to survive. Again, it's subjective.

Absolutely! I think it would be foolish to believe everything that the scientists tell us, just because they are scientists! I agree, we should scrutinise their conclusions about the purpose (or lack thereof) of the human race and life in general. Too narrow minded, in my view.

I think you've misunderstood me. It's reasonable to accept the peer reviewed conclusions that have been arrived at through scientific pursuit.

However, to say that "scientists" are telling anyone what the meaning of their life is, is kind of ridiculous seeing as science isn't meant to tell us that. Science deals with the objective. "Meaning" is a value assignment that is subjective. Science isn't meant to tell us the meaning of anything in that sense. It is up to the individual to decide for themselves what they find meaning in.

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[Beans]

Questions of existence are scientific questions. One needs to define "spiritual world" before we can even adequately discuss it.

Traverse. You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here. On the one hand you say that "The Spiritual world" needs to be defined before it can be adequately discussed, while on the other hand you say science deals with the objective and can not assign subjective meaning. And that is where the problem is.

However, to say that "scientists" are telling anyone what the meaning of their life is, is kind of ridiculous seeing as science isn't meant to tell us that.

Yes exactly, but they still do. People like yourself keep telling us that we should not believe in anything that cannot be scientifically proven. The fundamental belief of 99% the scientific community is that if you can't measure it, then it doesn't exist!

Science deals with the objective. "Meaning" is a value assignment that is subjective. Science isn't meant to tell us the meaning of anything in that sense. It is up to the individual to decide for themselves what they find meaning in.

If science is not able to answer subjective questions about meaning and purpose in a spiritual sense then we should not tout it as the ultimate way of finding "Truth".

Perhaps science lacks the programming language to describe the spiritual world?

I think you've misunderstood me. It's reasonable to accept the peer reviewed conclusions that have been arrived at through scientific pursuit.

No I did not misunderstand you. I was responding sarcasticly to your previous comment (below).

Also, just because science doesn't have the answers to certain questions, doesn't mean we should believe anything and everything without scrutiny. It's OK to say "I don't know.".

 

[Mr. Traverse]

Traverse. You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here. On the one hand you say that "The Spiritual world" needs to be defined before it can be adequately discussed, while on the other hand you say science deals with the objective and can not assign subjective meaning. And that is where the problem is.

How am I contradicting myself? Are you implying that the spiritual world is subjective? So it has no objective truth value whatsoever?

Yes exactly, but they still do. People like yourself keep telling us that we should not believe in anything that cannot be scientifically proven. The fundamental belief of 99% the scientific community is that if you can't measure it, then it doesn't exist!

I don't believe I've told anyone what they should believe. There remains no sufficient justification for me to conclude that any God, including the God of the Bible, exists.

I'm not really interested in getting you and other theists to not believe in God. I'm more curious about your explanations for your belief in God, and whether you apply those standards for belief consistently to other such claims.

But like I said, the scientific method tells us what is and can certainly help inform your position on what ought to be.

If science is not able to answer subjective questions about meaning and purpose in a spiritual sense then we should not tout it as the ultimate way of finding "Truth".

I find it difficult to ascribe the property of "truth" to subjective value assignments like "meaning" and "purpose". It may be true that you find meaning and purpose in your belief in this one particular God, but that doesn't necessitate the objective truth that this God exists. It also doesn't necessitate that this meaning and purpose is the "one true" meaning and purpose (whatever that really means).

Perhaps science lacks the programming language to describe the spiritual world?

What is the spiritual world?

Respectfully,

Traverse