Atheism

[Beans]

How am I contradicting myself? Are you implying that the spiritual world is subjective? So it has no objective truth value whatsoever?

Yes, I am. People experience God in subjective ways. If you can't accept that, then stay an athiest.

I don't believe I've told anyone what they should believe. There remains no sufficient justification for me to conclude that any God, including the God of the Bible, exists.

Oh come on! You want us to believe that you are just innocently coming to a Christian forum to say that you don't think God exists? Please!

I'm not really interested in getting you and other theists to not believe in God. I'm more curious about your explanations for your belief in God, and whether you apply those standards for belief consistently to other such claims.

Right and so if we don't apply your standards accross the board then that justifies your campaign against belief in God? No, I don't want to play. Thanks.

But like I said, the scientific method tells us what is and can certainly help inform your position on what ought to be.

I thought you were not going to tell us what to believe?

I find it difficult to ascribe the property of "truth" to subjective value assignments like "meaning" and "purpose". It may be true that you find meaning and purpose in your belief in this one particular God, but that doesn't necessitate the objective truth that this God exists. It also doesn't necessitate that this meaning and purpose is the "one true" meaning and purpose (whatever that really means).

What a hypocrite! Scientists do it all the time. One guy has a hypothesis that leans one way and some other guy has a different hypothesis and they each base it on what they have seen and experienced themselves. Each scientist believes that he has "the Truth" but it's not the whole picture. Why would the search for spiritual truthes be any different?

What is the spiritual world?

Respectfully,

Traverse

Why pretend that you respect my beliefs? Don't insult to my intellegence. You came here to pick a fight. Respect implies that you value my position, which clearly you do not.

 

[Mr. Traverse]

Yes, I am. People experience God in subjective ways. If you can't accept that, then stay an athiest.

Just because we experience something subjectively doesn't mean it is subjective. If the spiritual world has no objective existence, then within that context of the word it doesn't actually exist.

Oh come on! You want us to believe that you are just innocently coming to a Christian forum to say that you don't think God exists? Please!

I would rather you understand where I'm coming from, but you certainly don't have to accept it. I'm merely stating a fact. I don't believe, if I remember correctly, that I've told anyone here that they must or must not believe in anything. I'm more interested in the discussion to better understand why some people hold a different position than I do, not any sort of de-conversion.

Right and so if we don't apply your standards accross the board then that justifies your campaign against belief in God? No, I don't want to play. Thanks.

What? Again, I'm only interested in the standards you use, why you believe what you believe, and if you apply those standards for belief in God consistently to other such claims. I don't see how that is a "campaign against God". It sounds more like an invitation to conversation.

I thought you were not going to tell us what to believe?

There is no need for you to be so defensive. You don't have to believe it, but if you dispute that I'd certainly want some justification. Science is not meant to show anyone what they should value, as values are subjective personal opinions, not objective facts. Objective reality can certainly help inform regarding our opinions, however.

What a hypocrite! Scientists do it all the time. One guy has a hypothesis that leans one way and some other guy has a different hypothesis and they each base it on what they have seen and experienced themselves. Each scientist believes that he has "the Truth" but it's not the whole picture.

I can generally only speak on my behalf, so what other scientists do or do not do is kind of irrelevant. But I don't think you understand the differences between values and hypotheses. A hypothesis is a prediction about the "behavior" of objective reality. We then use our subjective observations, compare and contrast, and determine whether the hypothesis is valid or invalid.

A value is a personal, subjective opinion.

Why would the search for spiritual truthes be any different?

It shouldn't be, which is why I find it interesting that you think the spiritual world (again, thus far undefined), can't be objectively determined to exist like anything else. Just because we experience something subjectively does not mean it doesn't exist objectively. I would have thought you'd agree with that.

Why pretend that you respect my beliefs? Don't insult to my intellegence. You came here to pick a fight. Respect implies that you value my position, which clearly you do not.

What have I done that allows you to conclude I'm here to pick a fight?

Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd answer my previous question so I can better understand what you mean. What is the spiritual world?

By all means, though, if you don't want to engage in a polite discussion with me, then maybe it's better we don't converse, don't you think?

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[Beans]

Hi Traverse.
I guess I would just prefer not to have to debate the existence of God. I am aware that I have been pretty impatient with you about it, so I'm sorry about that. But the truth is I am a bit bugged by your "line of questioning" and where you seem to be trying to take it. I guess you figure you have some clever arguments about why God does not exist and you want to try them out on me. Well yeah, like I said, I'm not really interested.

The main problem I see is that because of your need for empirical evidence you will never accept that God is anything more than a possibility. And God, (for what appears to be the purpose of cultivating faith on Earth) seems to be concealing empirical evidence of his existence from Mankind (not that Creation isn't enough evidence in itself!).

So my friend, I believe something that I cannot prove to you (at least not in a way that you would accept as evidence) and I am not in the mood to continue a conversation which seems to be heading towards belittling and maligning my faith because of a lack of empirical evidence.

I'm not sure that it is possible to navigate this impasse. I was hoping for a more conciliatory tone from you, but you seem unable to see beyond the empirical box you have created for yourself.

 

[Beans]

Just read this quote on another thread. It spoke to my condition.

...as Christians we have to "personally" decide what constitutes proof...to us...in order to base our personal conclusion about God. My salvation is not dependent on what others think, it is only dependent on what God thinks. However, just because I cannot prove my conclusions to others through experimentation and repeatability as what the scientific method requires, it doesn't mean I am forced to forgo my personal conclusions. That's the beauty of faith, and God's personal connection to our personal situations.

 

[Mr. Traverse]

Hi Traverse.
I guess I would just prefer not to have to debate the existence of God. I am aware that I have been pretty impatient with you about it, so I'm sorry about that. But the truth is I am a bit bugged by your "line of questioning" and where you seem to be trying to take it. I guess you figure you have some clever arguments about why God does not exist and you want to try them out on me. Well yeah, like I said, I'm not really interested.

The only place I'm "trying to take" this discussion is a place where I can understand why you believe what you believe, because it seems so utterly unjustifiable to me.

You aren't interested in hearing about my position, fine. I'm interested in hearing yours. So who is being more open minded?

The main problem I see is that because of your need for empirical evidence you will never accept that God is anything more than a possibility. And God, (for what appears to be the purpose of cultivating faith on Earth) seems to be concealing empirical evidence of his existence from Mankind (not that Creation isn't enough evidence in itself!).

The problem is a problem of credulity. I have a standard that I try to use consistently in my every day life for gathering truth. You seem to use this same exact standard, even when it comes to other Gods or religious claims. However, the moment we get to your own particular God and religion, this standard is seemingly dismissed altogether.

The same reason you probably don't believe that UFO's abducted me last night, or that an invisible dragon lives in your home, is the same reason I don't believe in your God.

So my friend, I believe something that I cannot prove to you (at least not in a way that you would accept as evidence) and I am not in the mood to continue a conversation which seems to be heading towards belittling and maligning my faith because of a lack of empirical evidence.

But can you prove it to yourself? If the answer is "Yes" that's what I want to know.

If the answer is "No" then you are admitting to believing in something for absolutely no justifiable reason.

I'm not sure that it is possible to navigate this impasse. I was hoping for a more conciliatory tone from you, but you seem unable to see beyond the empirical box you have created for yourself.

I'm willing to better understand your position, if you're willing to communicate it to me in a polite manner. The ball is in your court. I'm not dismissing anyone off hand, that's just the lie you tell yourself to justify ending this discussion prematurely.

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[David777]

Hello Mr Traverse.

You seem determined to hold to an untenable position sir.

You claim objectivity is your claim to truth, this is untenable.

Sir, I would like to remind you that there does not exist true objectivity.

The position of objectivity is a position that no human can subscribe to.

Why do you continue to draw a line of demarcation between subjectivity and objectivity.

You cannot do this!

Christians do not separate the consciousness of man into these areas.

You need to correct previous posts.

 

[strages]

David777, why do you say that there is no objective truth? No true objective truth, as you say, would mean that Jesus did not come to save everybody. It would also mean that Jesus could have come for you, but not for me (meaning that, for some people, He doesn't exist at all). Finally, 2x2=4 always, and everywhere. There is a difference between subjective and objective truths, as I have shown. To be otherwise would mean that the world would not be as orderly as it is.

 

[David777]

Hello strages.

This is what you said,

"David777, why do you say that there is no objective truth? No true objective truth, as you say, would mean that Jesus did not come to save everybody."

Now this is what I stated,

"Sir, there does not exist true objectivity."

Stages you believe that Jesus is the objective truth.

This is a subjective opinion, this is what you believe.

Revelation is above subjectivity and objectivity.

We are talking about human understanding Stages.

More precisely: Jesus is the truth.

This is revelation, not subject to subjectivity or objectivity.



Is Jesus the objective truth?

Each individual will have to research and draw their own subjective conclusion.

Subjectivity determines objectivity.

What is truth? Whatever you think it is Stages.

 

[ItinerantLurker]

This is a subjective opinion, this is what you believe.

Revelation is above subjectivity and objectivity. . .

. . .This is revelation, not subject to subjectivity or objectivity.

Surely all those who claim to have received revelations from god have not, in actuality, received such. What's more, many "revelations" conflict with each other. Therefore you must choose between these often conflicting "revelations" as to which you will believe.



Lurker

 

[strawberry]

The only place I'm "trying to take" this
If the answer is "No" then you are admitting to believing in something for absolutely no justifiable reason.

...The famous last words of an Atheist.

If you are an Atheist, then you are admitting you've let your fears of the unknown defeat you and you settle for the hypothetical nonexistence of something for absolutely no justifiable reason: you cannot prove God doesn't exist. Look around you, man. Open your Bible. Knock, and the door will open. Seek, and you will find. God will meet you where you are. Nobody here can do that for you. You have to sincerely want to know God, and open your heart to him. The justifiable reason is that we are all sinners; we all need a savior. The blood of Jesus washes away all record of our sin.

 

[David777]

Hello itinerant lurker.

See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal;
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)

This is revelation itinerant lurker.

It excludes other so called revelation.

I am not sure what you mean by other revelation.

I can assure you that this revelation is the only revelation.

I think i remember the Roman Emperor Caligula (AD 41?) claimed to be God, that was not revelation, he is dead.

Is that what you are referring to?

 

[Mr. Traverse]

...The famous last words of an Atheist.

If you are an Atheist, then you are admitting you've let your fears of the unknown defeat you and you settle for the hypothetical nonexistence of something for absolutely no justifiable reason: you cannot prove God doesn't exist. Look around you, man. Open your Bible. Knock, and the door will open. Seek, and you will find. God will meet you where you are. Nobody here can do that for you. You have to sincerely want to know God, and open your heart to him. The justifiable reason is that we are all sinners; we all need a savior. The blood of Jesus washes away all record of our sin.

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QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif][if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]--> The only thing atheism necessitates is a lack of belief in a god or gods. That does not necessitate fear of anything. It is also does not necessitate any assertion of belief. I have been presented assertions and arguments for various gods. I have not been convinced, therefore I lack belief. The burden of proof is not on me to prove a negative, it is on the individual asserting the positive claim which in this case is the theist.

If you don't believe in bigfoot, do you have to prove that bigfoot doesn't exist? Of course not.

Respectfully,


Traverse

 

[strages]

Mr. Traverse, God's existence is very easy to prove. How did the universe begin? (It's not science but philosophy, I know) Even using the evolutionary theory, God's existence is quite obvious. If everything came from evolution, what did the first thing come from? Meaning that if it started with just two little atoms, Who put the atoms there?

Or the movement argument. Everything is moved by something. I can type because I was born, and also because I continue to eat. The world was made (according to evolution) because tons of debris formed together. But how did those begin to move? The big bang, or dying stars right? Well, What moved the first thing? Something that could move Itself, and I call that person God.

 

[Mr. Traverse]

Mr. Traverse, God's existence is very easy to prove. How did the universe begin? (It's not science but philosophy, I know) Even using the evolutionary theory, God's existence is quite obvious. If everything came from evolution, what did the first thing come from? Meaning that if it started with just two little atoms, Who put the atoms there?

Or the movement argument. Everything is moved by something. I can type because I was born, and also because I continue to eat. The world was made (according to evolution) because tons of debris formed together. But how did those begin to move? The big bang, or dying stars right? Well, What moved the first thing? Something that could move Itself, and I call that person God.

To ask the question "Who put it there?" presupposes a "who". Why must it be a being at all?

But we don't know all the answers to everything, and likely never will. That doesn't mean we should default to an unsubstantiated assertion of God. Why can't we just say "I don't know."?

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[Brother Mike]

Proof.

That doesn't mean we should default to an unsubstantiated assertion of God.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Concrete, solid evidence right there.

Chad:

First, prove to me that you have 100% absolute infinite intellectual knowledge that GOD does not exist (including proof that extends beyond our universe, space and everything beyond). Once you can do that, feel free follow up with your responses to the above questions.

Your time is limited here. I suggest you stop ignoring what was asked long ago, and get busy in answering what Chad has already asked.

Mike.

 

[Mr. Traverse]

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Concrete, solid evidence right there.

How can the claim be evidence of what is being claimed?

Chad:


Your time is limited here. I suggest you stop ignoring what was asked long ago, and get busy in answering what Chad has already asked.

Mike.

That's a strawman. Why should I substantiate something I haven't claimed? I have never once stated that I "have 100% absolute infinite intellectual knowledge that GOD does not exist". If you'd like to make a call, hang up, pick up the receiver again and listen for a dial tone. Then try again.

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[strages]

To ask the question "Who put it there?" presupposes a "who". Why must it be a being at all?

But we don't know all the answers to everything, and likely never will. That doesn't mean we should default to an unsubstantiated assertion of God. Why can't we just say "I don't know."?

Respectfully,

Traverse

Because it is a cop-out. If you have a better way of proving, or dis-proving, God's existence state it. Or at the very least disprove my statement, otherwise it is true. Isn't that correct? :embarasse

 

[Brother Mike]

Chad said.

Please continue the discussion if needed.

Chad's announcement:

After discussing this with the mod team, these following accounts have been closed.

BCRE8TVE
Interant Lurker
Mr Traverse

Reason: unbelievers who come with no purpose of seeking Jesus, only to cause strife, express fruitless worldly knowledge, reject Word of God and evidence from helpful believers here.

In the end, they came with full intention of not seeking Jesus and disrespecting our community. My advice to these three: grow up. Little children go out of there way to bother others. The rules and motto of the community is crystal clear and you had ample time to receive knowledge which you rejected and continued in your own understanding. You have no respect for our beliefs either and some of you claim to be science teachers too?

Matthew 10:14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.

I am posting this to avoid response that will not get answered.
You are all blessed, and Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Beans]

Well I have to say that I agree with that move.
Things were getting a bit out of hand with those guys.
They were deliberately asking questions that they know are not empirically provable as a way of proving that having faith in God is irrational.
Even if you had a vision or said that God actually spoke to you in an audible voice, it would not be enough for them.
I don't think you would be able to convince them even if you got tissue samples from God!

So yeah, the constant arguing and being put on the defensive was starting to annoy me. We don't need permission from anyone to have faith.
It is a good example of what you will come up against with atheists though!

Personally, I think the only honest position a non believer can take is to be an agnostic. Atheism is the belief that is no God. It is not a neutral position as Traverse kept trying to pretend, it is a stand against the existence of God. Which is why we kept getting such closed and hardened responses. If someone is really searching and open to answers they will actually try to see things the way you see them, not legalistically demand that you prove every point.

Anyway, chalk it up to experience?

 

[Asanima]

Well I have to say that I agree with that move.
Things were getting a bit out of hand with those guys.
They were deliberately asking questions that they know are not empirically provable as a way of proving that having faith in God is irrational.
Even if you had a vision or said that God actually spoke to you in an audible voice, it would not be enough for them.
I don't think you would be able to convince them even if you got tissue samples from God!

So yeah, the constant arguing and being put on the defensive was starting to annoy me. We don't need permission from anyone to have faith.
It is a good example of what you will come up against with atheists though!

Personally, I think the only honest position a non believer can take is to be an agnostic. Atheism is the belief that is no God. It is not a neutral position as Traverse kept trying to pretend, it is a stand against the existence of God. Which is why we kept getting such closed and hardened responses. If someone is really searching and open to answers they will actually try to see things the way you see them, not legalistically demand that you prove every point.

Anyway, chalk it up to experience?

I am an agnostic atheist. However, i am not against personal experience as justification for belief. The only problem i have, is that Personal experience is necessarily personal, and i cannot base my belief on someone elses experience. So, i suppose my question is, how do you get past the hurdle of a lack of personal experience in order to believe?