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B.C. Johnson: Why does God allow suffering?

That is a classic mistake in opinion, especially for those yet to believe.

First of all, "If God is all-powerful", is a failure to know the God of creation as absolute perfection; with out it nothing would exist!
My goodness, he spoke everything in to existence . Perhaps your not a believer yet.

To clarify to all... I am a believer, have been all my life. But I am constructing a philosophical argument to counter the B.C. Johnson claim.

B.C. Johnson is an atheist philosopher and we are currently discussing this topic in my philosophy class. He/she (no body knows the true identity of this person) is author of the book "Atheist Debater's Handbook". My original thread on this post talks about the specific claim more in depth.

Anyway, just to clarify, I AM a believer and I don't mean to be impertinent, I am simply searching for other opinions on the original claim. You must understand that in philosophical arguments legitimate reasons are essential and "faith" or "belief" is not quite sufficient. I am constructing an argument based on natural theology as opposed to revealed theology which does not stand a chance against atheistic arguments. And for this purpose I was hoping to gain an understanding of how other Christians would explain God to a non-believer.
 
God is God ,every non-believer should know what's that mean by literally meaning,what we can do is try the best way to explain the word of god . tell non-believer bible truth by simple word,simple understanding,simple wisdom,simple scripture,simple scientific knowledge.:shade:BUT the word of god really depth and be difficult to understand
 
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To clarify to all... I am a believer, have been all my life. But I am constructing a philosophical argument to counter the B.C. Johnson claim.

B.C. Johnson is an atheist philosopher and we are currently discussing this topic in my philosophy class. He/she (no body knows the true identity of this person) is author of the book "Atheist Debater's Handbook". My original thread on this post talks about the specific claim more in depth.

Anyway, just to clarify, I AM a believer and I don't mean to be impertinent, I am simply searching for other opinions on the original claim. You must understand that in philosophical arguments legitimate reasons are essential and "faith" or "belief" is not quite sufficient. I am constructing an argument based on natural theology as opposed to revealed theology which does not stand a chance against atheistic arguments. And for this purpose I was hoping to gain an understanding of how other Christians would explain God to a non-believer.

For me, I do understand that "philosophical arguments legitimate reasons" is a man thing and "faith or belief" is a God thing. True non-believers will never understand, they are hard-wired differently; one has to have a change of heart or born anew to understand God's ways.

When it comes to discussing God, philosophical arguments are a dead-end; I will just stick with real answers and real truth, God's holy word!!!
 
For me, I do understand that "philosophical arguments legitimate reasons" is a man thing and "faith or belief" is a God thing. True non-believers will never understand, they are hard-wired differently; one has to have a change of heart or born anew to understand God's ways.

When it comes to discussing God, philosophical arguments are a dead-end; I will just stick with real answers and real truth, God's holy word!!!

True True. But there has to be some way. I'm not giving up. I've found faults in the argument and logical fallacies, plus I have legitimate arguments supporting God. I know there has to be a way to argue the existence of God based on reason... and I'm going to find it lol. I've been working on it for quite a few years.

Atheists aren't the only ones that can debate... two can play at that game!!
 
True True. But there has to be some way. I'm not giving up. I've found faults in the argument and logical fallacies, plus I have legitimate arguments supporting God. I know there has to be a way to argue the existence of God based on reason... and I'm going to find it lol. I've been working on it for quite a few years.

Atheists aren't the only ones that can debate... two can play at that game!!

God said : " I am who I am", he just is.

If you know God's word thoroughly, the bible is enough proof. He first sought me and then I sought him and personally, I know he lives in me, that's good enough for me! Jesus, being God, said that: " he is the truth and the truth will set you free".

Good luck on your search for truth!
 
True True. But there has to be some way. I'm not giving up. I've found faults in the argument and logical fallacies, plus I have legitimate arguments supporting God. I know there has to be a way to argue the existence of God based on reason... and I'm going to find it lol. I've been working on it for quite a few years.

Atheists aren't the only ones that can debate... two can play at that game!!

if you didn't feel suffering,so you didn't fully understanding bible the word of god.

the suffering should be not from secular humanism;

the suffering is

Mat 13:1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
Mat 13:2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


let me show you Why does God allow suffering?


1ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

so be made for what? all men

what will be made for all? supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks,

BUT THIS IS NOT MEANing THE content will be made for all men!!!!!ONLY "supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks,what action about BLESSING" will be made for all men!!!!!

Pro 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not(and do not betray truth); also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Revelation 13:17 kjv:And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

SAVE HE ( that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. ) WHO CAN'T BUY truth OR betray truth.(And that no man might buy or sell)

Linkin Park - The Catalyst
God bless us every one 上帝保佑我们每一个人
We're a broken people living under loaded gun 我们却是活在枪口之下不完整的人
And it can't be outfought 谁都无法脱离争斗
It can't be outdone 永远没有结束
It can't be outmatched 永远无法停止较量
It can't be outrun 永远无法停下脚步
No no
God bless us every one 上帝保佑我们每一个人
We're a broken people living under loaded gun 我们却是活在枪口之下不完整的人
And it can't be outfought 谁都无法脱离争斗
It can't be outdone 永远没有结束
It can't be outmatched 永远无法停止较量
It can't be outrun 永远无法停下脚步
No no
And when I close my eyes tonight 当我今夜在无数的炫目的光线中闭上眼睛
To symphonies of blinding light
(God bless us every one / we're a broken people living under loaded gun)
Oh / like memories in cold decay 好像记忆彻底的腐朽了
Transmissions echoing away 传送的信息回荡着散开
Far from the world of you and I远离我们所在的世界
Where oceans bleed into the sky去到大海渗入天空的地方
God save us every one 上帝拯救我们每一个人
Will we burn inside the fires of a thousand suns 我们会在一千个太阳的火焰中被焚烧吗
For the sins of our hand 因为我们手上肮脏的罪恶
The sins of our tongue 那源自我们语言中的罪恶
The sins of our father 那来自我们父辈的罪恶
The sins of our young 那来自下一代的罪恶
No no
God save us every one 上帝拯救我们每一个人
Will we burn inside the fires of a thousand suns 我们会在一千个太阳的火焰中被焚烧吗
For the sins of our hand 因为我们手上肮脏的罪恶
The sins of our tongue 那源自我们语言中的罪恶
The sins of our father 那来自我们父辈的罪恶
The sins of our young 那来自下一代的罪恶
No no
And when I close my eyes tonight当我今夜在无数的炫目的光线中闭上眼睛
To symphonies of blinding light
(God save us every one上帝拯救我们每一个人 /
will we burn inside the fires of a thousand suns我们会在一千个太阳的火焰中被焚烧吗)
Oh / like memories in cold decay好像记忆彻底的腐朽了
Transmissions echoing away传送的信息回荡着散开
Far from the world of you and I远离我们所在的世界
Where oceans bleed into the sky去到大海渗入天空的地方
Oh / like memories in cold decay 好像记忆彻底的腐朽了
Transmissions echoing away 传送的信息回荡着散开
Far from the world of you and I远离我们所在的世界
Where oceans bleed into the sky去到大海渗入天空的地方
Lift me up, let me go 带我走 让我走
Lift me up, let me go 带我走 让我走
Lift me up, let me go 带我走 让我走
Lift me up, let me go 带我走 让我走
Lift me up, let me go 带我走 让我走
Lift me up, let me go 带我走 让我走
Lift me up, let me go 带我走 让我走
Lift me up, let me go 带我走 让我走
Lift me up, let me go 带我走 让我走
Lift me up, let me go 带我走 让我走
God bless us every one 上帝保佑我们每一个人
We're a broken people living under loaded gun 我们却是活在枪口之下不完整的人
And it can't be outfought 谁都无法脱离争斗
It can't be outdone 永远没有结束
It can't be outmatched 永远无法停止较量
It can't be outrun 永远无法停下脚步
No no
God bless us every one 上帝保佑我们每一个人
We're a broken people living under loaded gun 我们却是活在枪口之下不完整的人
And it can't be outfought 谁都无法脱离争斗
It can't be outdone 永远没有结束
It can't be outmatched 永远无法停止较量
It can't be outrun 永远无法停下脚步

then THE BLESSING IS
1ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


THE TRUTH IS
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Mat 13:53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.
Mat 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Mat 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Mat 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Mat 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
 
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Ok... I'm going to play devil's advocate here...

A Devil's Advocate is someone who takes the opposing view strictly for the purpose of stimulating discussion. Its a tool that is used regularly in college and university debating classes.

SLE
 
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I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the B.C. Johnson philosophy. We were discussing it in my philosophy class today and it brought up an interesting topic. Its basically the battle between good and evil, and Johnson presents the common argument, if God is all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing, why is there evil?

Johnson uses an interesting example:
"A house catches fire and a six month old baby is painfully burned to death. Could we possibly describe as "good" any person that had the power to save this child and yet refused to do so? God undoubtedly has this power and in many cases of this sort he has refused to help. Can we call God "good"? Are there adequate excuses for this behavior?"
I have developed my own critic of this argument and I think I have enough info about God to respond, but I was wondering what everyone else thought. Esp. those with a more mature relationship and understanding of God........ How would you respond to this?

Genesis - 创世记 8:21
kjv:And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
niv:The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
amp:When the Lord smelled the pleasing odor [a scent of satisfaction to His heart], the Lord said to Himself, I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination (the strong desire) of man's heart is evil and wicked from his yo
asv:And Jehovah smelled the sweet savor; and Jehovah said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man`s sake, for that the imagination of man`s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done.
nasb:The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.
esv:"And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, ""I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done."
zhpy:yē hé huá wén nà xīn xiāng zhī qì ,jiù xīnli shuō :“wǒ búzài yīn rén de yuán gù zhòu zǔ de (rén cóngxiǎo shí xīnli huái zhe è niàn ),yě búzài àn zhe wǒ cái xíng de ,miè gèzhǒng de huó wù le 。
cuv:耶和华闻那馨香之气,就心里说:“我不再因人的缘故咒诅地(人从小时心里怀着恶念),也不再按着我才行的,灭各种的活物了。
cxz:耶和华闻那馨香之气,就心里说:“我不再因人的缘故咒诅地(人从小时心里怀着恶念),也不再按着我才行的,灭各种的活物了。
big5:耶和華聞那馨香之氣、就心裡說、我不再因人的緣故咒詛地、(人從小時心裡懷著惡念)也不再按著我纔行的、滅各種的活物了。
ncv:耶和华闻了那馨香的气味,就心里说:“我必不再因人的缘故咒诅这地(因为人从小时开始心中所想的都是邪恶的);我也必不再照着我作过的,击杀各样的活物。
ko:여호와께서 그 향기를 흠향 하시고 그 중심에 이르시되, 내가 다시는 사람으로 인하여 땅을 저주하지 아니하리니 이는 사람의 마음의 계획하는 바가 어려서부터 악함이라. 내가 전에 행한 것 같이 모든 생물을 멸하지 아니하리니
fr:L'Éternel sentit une odeur agréable, et l'Éternel dit en son coeur: Je ne maudirai plus la terre, à cause de l'homme, parce que les pensées du coeur de l'homme sont mauvaises dès sa jeunesse; et je ne frapperai plus tout ce qui est vivant, comme je l'ai fait.
de:Der Herr wurde durch das Opfer gnädig gestimmt und sagte sich: "Nie mehr will ich wegen der Menschen die Erde vernichten, obwohl sie von frühester Jugend an voller Bosheit sind. Nie wieder will ich alles Leben auslöschen, wie ich es getan habe!
ru:И обонял Господь приятное благоухание, и сказал Господь в сердце Своем: не буду больше проклинать землю за человека, потому что помышление сердца человеческого - зло от юности его; и не буду больше поражать всего живущего, как Я сделал:
ja:主は, そのなだめのかおりをかがれ, 主は 心の 中でこう 仰せられた. 「わたしは, 決して 再び 人のゆえに, この 地をのろうことはすまい. 人の 心の 思い 計ることは, 初めから 惡であるからだ. わたしは, 決して 再び, わたしがしたように, すべての 生き 物を 打ち 滅ぼすことはすまい.
la:odoratusque est Dominus odorem suavitatis et ait ad eum nequaquam ultra maledicam terrae propter homines sensus enim et cogitatio humani cordis in malum prona sunt ab adulescentia sua non igitur ultra percutiam omnem animantem sicut feci
he:חיר־תא הוהי חריוהוהי רמאיו חחינהףסא־אל ובל־לא־תא דוע ללקלםדאה רובעב המדאהער םדאה בל רצי יכףסא־אלו וירענמ־תא תוכהל דוע׃יתישע רשאכ יח־לכ
el:Kai wsfranqh KurioV osmhn euwdiaV
es:Y percibió Jehová olor de suavidad; y dijo Jehová en su corazón: No tornaré más á maldecir la tierra por causa del hombre; porque el intento del corazón del hombre es malo desde su juventud: ni volveré más á destruir todo viviente, como he hecho.
:shock:
sorry!this is what you were trying to ......................say,the fire not because of God!!!!just as the Global warming and the climatic fluctuations not because of God!!!!!cuz people didn't take precautions against!!!
cuz people lack of wisdom,lack of take precautions against。why?becaus people already know Science.
so what's Science ?it's all about Fiction.
logic 1.Fiction that god is true.
logic 2.Fiction that god is False.
this is Science,this is really called Science.but how about now?the Science complete denial of GOD and bible.

"There is some fiction in your truth,and some truth in your fiction."
LET ME TELL YOU THE TRUTH
at the coming of the Son of Mankind, will He be finding the faith on the earth? Luke 18:8
 
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True True. But there has to be some way. I'm not giving up. I've found faults in the argument and logical fallacies, plus I have legitimate arguments supporting God. I know there has to be a way to argue the existence of God based on reason

You are completely right, and the reason that I know you are right is because God is a God of reason and order and logic, not one of chaos. You could use the argument that if God does not exist then there is no truth in the world at all. except if you you did, your professor, being as "educated" as he is, would probably agree with you and bring up the post-modern view that truth is relative to every individual and that absolute truth does not exists. at which point you could ask him whether it was right or wrong to kill someone for no reason. if he said this was also relative you could ask whether it would be right or wrong if you killed HIM. if he is dumb enough to say that it is still relative, then you can move on and tell him that he is full of it and that it would be absolutly wrong for you to kill him for no reason. every civilization in the world has argreed that murdering a neighbor is wrong. why? because it is an issue that goes beyond opinion, it is morally hard wired into humanity as a whole that murder is wrong.
 
Ok... I'm going to play devil's advocate here...

IF God is all-powerful, all-knowing, He knew that Adam and Eve would make a bad choice, so why didn't He use his power to create them to always choose good?

And why can't/doesn't He use his power to stop suffering...??

Maybe this will help you with finding an answer.

While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could deliver him out of death. And God heard his prayers because of his reverence for God. So even though Jesus was God's Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. Hebrews 5:7-9

For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross. This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.
But you must continue to believe this truth and stand in it firmly. Don't drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed by God to proclaim it. Colossians 1:19-23
 
Atheists aren't the only ones that can debate... two can play at that game!!

Audrey, before the game starts, make sure you are "Prayed Up" personally and that you have as many people praying for you as possible. And don't think small with this prayer campaign; think BIG!

Some years ago, I mounted a prayer campaign for my son to get saved and be healed of liver disease. I had nearly a hundred Christians on my e-mail address list and I asked them all to pray. What I didn't realize was that many of them were forwarding my request to people on their lists. This hit me one day when a friend said to me, "You know, you've probably got a thousand people praying." God chose to not heal my son's body, but, I had the honor and priviledge of leading him to Christ approximately half an hour before he died.

There's power in prayer! Use it to the max.

SLE
 
God said : " I am who I am", he just is.

If you know God's word thoroughly, the bible is enough proof. He first sought me and then I sought him and personally, I know he lives in me, that's good enough for me! Jesus, being God, said that: " he is the truth and the truth will set you free".

Good luck on your search for truth!

Sorry my friend. God did NOT say I am who I am. That's something you can say.

God said something very very different.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

So how is it different? Do you need salvation? That's the I am that I am. Do you need healing? That's the I am that I am. Do you need deliverance from debt, suffering, bondage? That's the I AM that I AM!!!! Any need you may have He has promised to meet it because that's the I am that He are.
 
So here's my question.... Some have said philosophy, some have said faith......

Where in the Word does it say God will make you sick, break your arm, kill your baby just to teach you something. Then What kind of father would inflict such pain on his child and not tell him what he is to learn? If an earthly father broke his sons arm to teach him something, (tell him or not what he should learn), he would rightly go to jail. And you would judge him a beast. So why does God do that and we judge Him Loving?

Answer? God does not put any kind of suffering on you. period.
Jesus came that you might have LIFE. Not death.

So show scripture from our covenant that God wants you to suffer. Come on!! Show it.

We are the salt of the Earth. There is suffering in the world because God does not allow us to suffer. WE allow it. "he who now letteth....." That's us!
 
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So here's my question.... Some have said philosophy, some have said faith......

Where in the Word does it say God will make you sick, break your arm, kill your baby just to teach you something. Then What kind of father would inflict such pain on his child and not tell him what he is to learn? If an earthly father broke his sons arm to teach him something, (tell him or not what he should learn), he would rightly go to jail. And you would judge him a beast. So why does God do that and we judge Him Loving?

Answer? God does not put any kind of suffering on you. period.
Jesus came that you might have LIFE. Not death.

So show scripture from our covenant that God wants you to suffer. Come on!! Show it.

We are the salt of the Earth. There is suffering in the world because God does not allow us to suffer. WE allow it. "he who now letteth....." That's us!

I posted earlier in this thread but maybe you missed it.

While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could deliver him out of death. And God heard his prayers because of his reverence for God. So even though Jesus was God's Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. Hebrews 5:7-9


Here's some more to go with the above scripture.
For God is pleased with you when, for the sake of your conscience, you patiently endure unfair treatment. Of course, you get no credit for being patient if you are beaten for doing wrong. But if you suffer for doing right and are patient beneath the blows, God is pleased with you. This suffering is all part of what God has called you to. Christ, who suffered for you, is your example. Follow in his steps. 1Peter 2:19-21

So then, since Christ suffered physical pain, you must arm yourselves with the same attitude he had, and be ready to suffer, too. For if you are willing to suffer for Christ, you have decided to stop sinning. 1Peter 4:1

In his kindness God called you to his eternal glory by means of Jesus Christ. After you have suffered a little while, he will restore, support, and strengthen you, and he will place you on a firm foundation. 1Peter 5:10

There are many more scriptures I can post on this and I think there was a similar discussion with you where it was brought up that God kept the Hebrews out in the wilderness until they died off.

Now I have a question for you El Hombre. From whom did the curse come from?:wink:
 
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Sorry my friend. God did NOT say I am who I am. That's something you can say.

God said something very very different.

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

So how is it different? Do you need salvation? That's the I am that I am. Do you need healing? That's the I am that I am. Do you need deliverance from debt, suffering, bondage? That's the I AM that I AM!!!! Any need you may have He has promised to meet it because that's the I am that He are.

"Yes my friend", I didn't say it but many more translations than your KJV say it:

  • New King James Version (NKJV)
    14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
  • New International Version (NIV)
    14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
  • English Standard Version (ESV)
    14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM."[a] And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel,(A) 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
  • And none state my original point more than: Amplified Bible (AMP):14And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM and WHAT I AM, and I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE; and He said, You shall say this to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you!
Like I was originally referring to, he just is and we do not fully understand the perfect vastness and limitlessness that he is.

Like ST. Paul says: (paraphrasing), " When perfection comes, we will see him "face to face" and we will know him as fully as he knows us!".......and, not until then can we truly say perfectly, who he is!!:wink:
 
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I posted earlier in this thread but maybe you missed it.

While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could deliver him out of death. And God heard his prayers because of his reverence for God. So even though Jesus was God's Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. Hebrews 5:7-9


Here's some more to go with the above scripture.
For God is pleased with you when, for the sake of your conscience, you patiently endure unfair treatment. Of course, you get no credit for being patient if you are beaten for doing wrong. But if you suffer for doing right and are patient beneath the blows, God is pleased with you. This suffering is all part of what God has called you to. Christ, who suffered for you, is your example. Follow in his steps. 1Peter 2:19-21

So then, since Christ suffered physical pain, you must arm yourselves with the same attitude he had, and be ready to suffer, too. For if you are willing to suffer for Christ, you have decided to stop sinning. 1Peter 4:1

In his kindness God called you to his eternal glory by means of Jesus Christ. After you have suffered a little while, he will restore, support, and strengthen you, and he will place you on a firm foundation. 1Peter 5:10

There are many more scriptures I can post on this and I think there was a similar discussion with you where it was brought up that God kept the Hebrews out in the wilderness until they died off.

Now I have a question for you El Hombre. From whom did the curse come from?:wink:


Jigger. My answer is throughout this post. I answered each point as I came to them



Hebrews 5:7-9 (Young's Literal Translation)

7who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared,

8through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

9and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,


Ok This is talking about something Jesus came to do...He took our suffering to the cross..



1 Peter 2:19-24 (King James Version)
19For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


So Jesus took suffering for us. Why? SO THAT we can follow his example. Walking as he did. Teaching, healing…Walking in love

1 Peter 4:1 (KJV)
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
WHEN YOU QUOTE A SCRIPTURE YOU SHOULD QUOTE THE ENTIRE SENTENCE…..
1 Peter 4:1-2 (King James Version)

1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.


Jesus suffered for us in the flesh. (We no longer have to suffer in the flesh) We are to have the same mind. MIND So if we are suffering, its because we are saying no to the flesh. not because we are sick.

1 Peter 5:10 (KJV)
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.



Mark 4:24
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Luke 8:18
Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.


1 Peter 5:10 (Amplified Bible)

10And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace [Who imparts all blessing and favor], Who has called you to His [own] eternal glory in Christ Jesus, will Himself complete and make you what you ought to be, establish and ground you securely, and strengthen, and settle you.

What are the sufferings spoken of here? Not physical suffering. Jesus took that on himself on the cross. so we would not have to suffer. The suffering spoken of in this verse is more situational. As in a learning experience. Striving against the fleshly desires….LOL Saying no to the flesh can be ‘painful’ grin
I doubt not that you can throw more scriptures around. just be sure they say what you say they say. Don’t blame god for something he already took care of.



The curse is a natural result of walking outside the Word
 
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Hebrews 5:7-9 (Young's Literal Translation)

7who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared,

8through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

9and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,


Ok This is talking about something Jesus came to do...He took our suffering to the cross..

How do you get that from this scripture?
1 Peter 2:19-24 (King James Version)
19For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


So Jesus took suffering for us. Why? SO THAT we can follow his example. Walking as he did. Teaching, healing…Walking in love
Again here, while Christ did suffer for us I see no mention of taking suffering away but rather Peter states that when you do suffer take it patiently.
Jesus suffered for us in the flesh. (We no longer have to suffer in the flesh) We are to have the same mind. MIND So if we are suffering, its because we are saying no to the flesh. not because we are sick.
Care to expound on this some and just how you got that from the scripture referenced?
10And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace [Who imparts all blessing and favor], Who has called you to His [own] eternal glory in Christ Jesus, will Himself complete and make you what you ought to be, establish and ground you securely, and strengthen, and settle you.

What are the sufferings spoken of here? Not physical suffering. Jesus took that on himself on the cross. so we would not have to suffer. The suffering spoken of in this verse is more situational. As in a learning experience. Striving against the fleshly desires….LOL Saying no to the flesh can be ‘painful’ grin
I doubt not that you can throw more scriptures around. just be sure they say what you say they say. Don’t blame god for something he already took care of.

Your going to have to do better than that, again I see no mention of you paradigm here. I think you are the one struggling to find scriptural support for your opinion.

Not sure why you failed to answer the question in my last post. Do you know who the curse came from?
 
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Not sure why you failed to answer the question in my last post. Do you know who the curse came from?

Jigger are you too busy looking for an argument that you don't finish a post? I answered your question.

As to my answers on my previous post...Jesus was our substitute on the cross. Its us that had the death penalty not Jesus. He is the one who bore it all for us. Deal with it.:shade:
 
Not sure why you failed to answer the question in my last post. Do you know who the curse came from?

Jigger are you too busy looking for an argument that you don't finish a post? I answered your question.

As to my answers on my previous post...Jesus was our substitute on the cross. Its us that had the death penalty not Jesus. He is the one who bore it all for us. Deal with it.:shade:

OK sorry I didn't think that was your answer, thanks for the clarification. Now let me help you gain some understanding on this.

But how can I curse those whom God has not cursed? How can I condemn those whom the LORD has not condemned? Numbers 23:8


Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:1-3

"Today I am giving you the choice between a blessing and a curse! You will be blessed if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today. You will receive a curse if you reject the commands of the LORD your God and turn from his way by worshiping foreign gods. Deut. 11:26-28


P.S. Not trying to argue, just trying to set things straight.:wink:
 
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