Beware of the "Rapture Ready" Forum

[Stephen1]

The most significant thing to know is that one's salvation comes by the Lord's grace through faith in His willingness and ability to save one for eternity .... without this connection nothing else makes any difference

The knowledge of Bible prophecy means absolutely nothing without the above truth .... Bible prophecy is a powerful witness to the unbeliever and a faith builder for the believer .... but it can be greatly abused by those who use it for personal gain

Many have and do use the Lord's Word for the purpose of attracting attention to themselves, gaining power and influence over those who follow, and for making merchandise by fraud and outright deception .... and many do follow them, and much of professing christianity toay is trapped by the same with the numbers growing

Today's believer needs to be well grounded in the knowledge of the scriptures so that one is not misled and also for being able and willing to witness to those who are lost ..... and particularly reaching out to those who think they are saved when they are not

Satan offers temptation to those who engage in the process of false teaching, and because of human weakness many fall to his drawing .... Jesus christ said that many would come in His name and would deceive many ..... they are prevalient today as the world moves closer to His coming intervention

 

[youngjohn]

post trib

Sometimes I get lost in this forum. I want to give evidences for the post trib rapture view.

Someone sent me this message: Actually there is nothing in scripture that supports a post-tribulation "rapture"

There are several problems with the statement.

1: How can he be so sure before he asks the reasons for my view?

I am sure he could not have said this if he had had more knowledge of the Bible.

As s child I was daily reading my Bible before I ever heard of a pretrib rapture. It was evident to me that the theory is missing from Matthew 24 where it would bve if it were true.

As a college boy I had to read the works of Dr. John Rice. Afterwards I wrote to him to ask him "What is the biblical basis for the pretrib rapture view?" He could not answer the question, though I wrote to him five times with the same question.

There is something wrong with teaching a doctrine for which we canno find a biblical basis.

John

 

[Stephen1]

YJ,

Give me your statements and or questions one at a time and I will answer all of them regarding the timing of the Lord's action to immortalize the church

But keep in mind that here can be no attempts to turn the discussion into an arguement and I do not tolerate those who make statement's that are condescending and disrespectful

You may not want to have the discussion and that is ok with me .... I will be posting all of the scriptures that relate to the subject and will demonstrate the biblical support for a pre-tribulation event without a doubt

The problem with many who teach this view today is that their presentations have numerous flaws and this makes their teaching vulnerable to dispute .... when taught properly the case is an air tight one

My objective is to set the record straight and not to convince anyone to change their position ..... this is something that all must do for themselves .... if you are convinced of your view then that is where you will most likely stay

But what I will do is explain why I believe that post-tribulational teaching has potential and dangerous undercover deceptions which can result in one's loss of eternal life

It is not necessarily the rejection of the pre-tribulation "rapture" itself that is suspect ..... but it is the rest of what is attached to the false teacher's objectives that may be a killer for those who follow

Removing the pre-tribulation view is a strategy that is used to then open up the scriptures for adding many deceptions .... there are many who do this and the list is a long one ..... a number of known "cult like" presentations of professing christian movements are offered by post-tribulation pushers ..... and there is a definite reason for it

 

[spirit1st]

YJ,

Give me your statements and or questions one at a time and I will answer all of them regarding the timing of the Lord's action to immortalize the church

But keep in mind that here can be no attempts to turn the discussion into an arguement and I do not tolerate those who make statement's that are condescending and disrespectful

You may not want to have the discussion and that is ok with me .... I will be posting all of the scriptures that relate to the subject and will demonstrate the biblical support for a pre-tribulation event without a doubt

The problem with many who teach this view today is that their presentations have numerous flaws and this makes their teaching vulnerable to dispute .... when taught properly the case is an air tight one

My objective is to set the record straight and not to convince anyone to change their position ..... this is something that all must do for themselves .... if you are convinced of your view then that is where you will most likely stay

But what I will do is explain why I believe that post-tribulational teaching has potential and dangerous undercover deceptions which can result in one's loss of eternal life

It is not necessarily the rejection of the pre-tribulation "rapture" itself that is suspect ..... but it is the rest of what is attached to to the false teacher's objectives that may be a killer for those who follow

Removing the pre-tribulation view is a strategy that is used to then open up the scriptures for adding many deceptions .... there are many who do this and the list is a long one ..... a number of known "cult like" presentations of professing christian movements are post-tribulation pushers ..... and there is a definite reason for it

Salvation is a new heavenly being.
It has only one great desire to serve the LORD 100%. It cannot sin , nor would it!
we cannot lose salvation if we cannot sin!

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

the called can fall away the elect cannot!

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Joh 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

this is the way My Father God sees each of His Holy children!
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

He is looking at our spirit. not our flawed bodies!
WE are HIS body and His body has no flaws , none!

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

saran always 100% of the time, attacks our faith , he does not wanting us having faith !
we are saved though faith and every heavenly gift must come by faith . Every miracles we get must come by faith!

We Cannot please God without Faith!
The devil knows it!

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

I really do not like it when others faith is under attack !
WE need to believe our FATHER GODS word and want to be in HIS perfect Will!

The wrath of GOD cannot ever be toward HIS Holy kids!
WE do suffer tribulation on the earth. But its because the devil hates us.
But we never feel the wrath of Our Father GOD !
Nor will we!

 

[greatlybeloved]

Stephen,

I know you're discussing with YJ, but could you give ONE DIRECT verse that support pre-tribulation?

When i say "direct verse", the following arguments (that pre-tribbers give) don't count, because they are based on assumptions:

Argument# 1. God has not appointed us to "wrath". So we won't go through tribulation.
Objection: Do you know there are many "wraths" mentioned in the Bible. There is wrath of Satan, Wrath of God, Wrath of the Lamb, etc., So which "wrath" do you mean?

Argument# 2: We don't read about the "church" after Revelation 3, so the "church" must have been raptured by then.
Objection# 1: That is an assumption. Logic tells us that just because something is not mentioned does not mean it is not there.
Objection# 2: The "church" mentioned in Revelation 1-3 does not guarantee that it is the "body of Christ". The term "church" is a broader term. It is used for Israel in Acts 7:38. So why can't it be tribulation saints (i.e., Israel)? If it is true, it could be possible that the whole Revelation is Jewish and the "body of Christ" is just not mentioned there.
NOTE: I'm not saying my objections are accurate, but it gives different possibilities, so we can't be dogmatic there.


Argument# 3: The 24 elders in Revelation 4 are the church (body of Christ). We see them before opening the seals, so they would have been raptured.
Objection: This is another assumption and the argument is very shallow (in that it doesn't explore other possibilities). The elders could be representatives of whole mankind who have been redeemed. Or could be 12 apostles and 12 sons of Israel (therefore 24 number). If you insist on "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation", and argue that they can't be just Israel (i.e., 12 apostles and 12 tribal heads), then even the four BEASTS sing that song. How can the beasts say, "redeemed us to God by thy blood" (Rev 5:9)?

Argument# 4: During the tribulation, we see jewish traditions (like keeping the sabbath, etc.,). We learn from Apostle Paul that observing Sabbaths, new-moons, days, years, etc., are BEGGARLY ELEMENTS. So if the Lord expected the tribulation saints to observe sabbath (Mat 24:20), then the dispensation for the "body of Christ" must have ended (by rapture) and therefore the Jewish traditions are seen in tribulation.
Objection: This is the ONLY good argument (to some extent) that I see from pre-tribbers (this is why Darby/others came to a conclusion that the body of Christ must have been raptured by then). However, there is NOTHING in the Scripture that tells us that one dispensation has to end to begin another. NOR a dispensation is a TIME period, it is merely an administration (dispensing) of something (in our case, it is dispensation of grace). And Scripture doesn't support the idea that a group can only belong to ONE dispensation. Or even same group (the body of Christ) can be MOVED to different dispensation. There are MANY possibilities. So just because we see Jewish elements during the tribulation doesn't mean the body of Christ is raptured.

Argument# 5: We will not go through the "day of the Lord" according to 1 Thessalonians 5:2-5. So we will not go through tribulation.
Objection: This is the argument that made me believe the pre-trib rapture before. But not anymore! Because the pre-tribbers wrongly assume that the "day of the Lord" means tribulation. It is NOT! The "day of the Lord" comes AFTER the tribulation ENDS. I showed it clearly in the chart I prepared. Please have a look.
http://www.talkjesus.com/members/gr...udy-charts-picture4065-prophetic-timeline.jpg
(Please open it in a new window to get bigger picture)
If you have any objections based on Scriptures, please come forward.

Just for the record I'm neither pre-tribber, nor a post-tribber. Actually I have not come to a full conclusion yet. But my thoughts kind of match pre-wrath mostly, bu tI could be wrong. However, I can say with 100% confidence that pre-trib is unscriptural. We need to be open to the correction of the Scriptures instead of sticking to our pet theories. I have seen many people who "believe" pre-trib rapture without even knowing any Scripture supporting it. How can anyone believe before proving it with the Scripture is beyond me!

God bless!

John.

 

[Stephen1]

John,

I will address your concerns with a number of responses, both to your stated comments and also why I believe that the Lord is going to immortalize the church of today, both those asleep and living at the time, just before He brings His coming wrath and judgment against a world of pent up intransigence that He is no longer willing to tolerate

No one should ever just believe what others might say, but must discover and learn from the scriptures alone .... especially in today's environment where false teaching and deception abounds ..... one cannot afford to throw their own salvation to the wind and all will be held accountable for themselves ..... following prescribed doctrines will not be accepted as an excuse

The problem as I see it is one of neglect, and reliance upon others to do one's thinking and due diligence ..... this position reflects a lack of focus and effort to seek the truth regarding the Lord's message to humanity on many issues ..... and this is the prevalent behavior of today's "professing" church across many sectarian denominations

Understanding the Lord's Word correctly requires one to spend the time and to seek His guidance in the process .... there are no short cuts and this is especially true for the teacher of Bible prophecy who is to lead and assist others with the correct rendering of the prophetic scriptures

Unfortunately there are few around today who can and are willing to accomplish this mission and instead most involved are out to achieve personal gain .... many are being led astray by following them and their religious organizations, but there will be no excuse for doing this

Many subjects of the Bible require that one seeks and discovers a number of related scriptures which must be taken together in order to gain a correct rendering ..... not just one or two verses .... the Lord's timing of His intent to execute His future calling for the believer is one of them

So I will give all of these .... not just one; I will also demonstrate why a number of the current supporting ideas offered by pre-tribulation teachers are flawed

.... and I will also give the same for the pre-wrath and post-tribulation views [I do not consider preterism as a valid form of interpretation, but will address it separately if asked], which are both seriously flawed, and why they do not meet overall scriptural requirements including the reasons why many false teachers use them among other misleading ideas for promoting their agendas

I will respond on this thread with a number of related postings for the forum and then readers must decide for themselves .... and the process will include evaluations of various denominational teachings which may not be what every reader wants to hear, but necessary for giving a completed analysis

I have no intention of judging anyone, but only to give what I consider to be correct scriptural renderings ..... only Jesus Christ can and does judge the individual .... so I do not generally address those who cry judgmental motivations for the purpose of argumentation

 

[tghslh]

rr reply

one thing that the devil likes is to put doubt in the heart of believers so they will stumble and fall. sometimes people are used this way and don't even know they are being the devils advocate. especially religious but lost people. lets look at the first time doubt was put in the heart of a person. Gen.3 the serpent said to the woman, ye hath God said. this question is still asked today. hath God said.and then by one person saying i don't believe it. having an evil heart of unbelief, changes the word, by saying its not like that. and causes many to fall. we read also in 1 thess. 4 around v.15,17. it says the dead shall rise first. and then we that are alive and remain shall be caught up.. to wit rapture out. now God made the world and all that in it is. how be it there are those who say this did not happen.,never the less he promised us a new earth , after rapture . will this not happen either. but of course it will. God is faithful, his word changes not. regardless of unbelieving statements people make.

 

[youngjohn]

Stephen:

Dearly beloved asked that you "you give ONE DIRECT verse that supports pre-tribulation?" This seems to me an appropriate request.

youngjohn

 

[Stephen1]

YJ,

I am going to give all of the direct verses related to the Lord's pre-tribulation "Harpazo" action for the believer

I will also post the flaws in the pre-tribulation view; and those of pre-warth, post-tribulation, and preterism ... sighted will be examples of professing christian teachers and organizations who embrace them

Included will be the potential dangers for following the pre-wrath, post, and preterism views .... these false teachings hold the seeds of keeping one from eternal life

Hold on

 

[Stephen1]

Here are a number of the common errors contained in the make up of the pre-tribulation views held by most reformation theologies of the past and today:


1.Events of last 2000 years on the earth between the Lord's first and second advent are recorded in the scope of the visions of the Bible prophets

2.The ancient Roman Empire is recorded in the visions and it will be revived at the time of the end [most suggest Europe]

3.The people of the "prince who shall come" in Daniel 9 were the Romans in 70 A.D.

4.The first "he" in Daniel 9:27 is the other prince [the "antichrist]

5.The antichrist will rise out of Europe

6.The "antichrist" is the Pope

7.The "antichrist" will claim to be Jesus Christ

8.The 10 kings are Europeans or a global government [NWO]

9.A peace treaty of 7 years will be made by the "antichrist" between Israel and the nation's enemies

10. A tribulation temple will be rebuilt for the Lord

11.The temple of Revelation 11:1 is on the earth during the tribulation period

12.The removal of believers at the "rapture" is the same as the Lord standing aside [taken out of the way] to allow for the "antichrist" to be revealed

13.Revelation 14:14 is a resurrection of believers

14.The passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are a focus upon the church

15.Daniel's and the other prophets' visions incude the church

16.Ezekiel 38, 39 is a war before the end of the tribulation period and is not the battle of Armageddon

16.Gog is a Russian

17.John's call to "come up" is the "rapture" of the church

18.The church is not seen in Revelation after chapter 3

19.The seals of the scroll are actual sequential events of the tribulation period

20.The symbol of the white horse of the first seal is the "antichrist"

21.The first beast of Revelation is a world government system

22.The first beast of Revelation is a resurrected human

23.MBG [the "woman"] is the RCC

24.The Lord's two tribulation prophets serve during the first 1260 days

25.The great multitude seen in Revelation are the martyrs of the tribulation period

26.The 200 million of Revelation 9 are human armies

27.Satan and the first beast of Revelation are the same entity


I will address each of these and give the correct rendering in a following post soon

All of them weaken the pre-tribulation, pre-millennial, dispensational structure of the Bible and are vulnerable to refutation by the false teachers of post-tribulation, pre-wrath, and historical [preterism] exegesis

These false views are taught by false teachers and false prophets who desire to draw attention to themselves seeking power and influence; and to attract a following for their own self gain

I will sight examples of them and their organizations and just why they must refute the correct pre-tribulation view .... then I will demonstrate that the scriptures teach a pre-tribulation "rapture"

 

[Stephen1]

Suggested alternative interpretations of prevalent reformation theology that will make the pre-tribulation view impervious to attack by the false teachers who reject the Lord's pre-tribulation action to immortalize the church of today:

1.Events of last 2000 years on the earth between the Lord's first and second advent are recorded in the scope of the visions of the Bible prophets

>There is nothing recorded in the breach of the visions between the end of the 69th week [about 33 A.D.] of the 70 weeks of years [490 prophetic years] decreed for Israel and the beginning of the 70th week [7 prophetic years]

2.The ancient Roman Empire is recorded in the visions and it will be revived at the time of the end [most suggest Europe]

>Ancient Rome is recorded in the N.T. as a matter of historical fact, but not in the visions of the Bible prophets .... the existence of this ancient empire lies in the breach and it will not be revived at the time of the end

3.The people of the "prince who shall come" in Daniel 9 were the Romans in 70 A.D.

>These will be the followers of the beast [in the little horn] at the time of the end .... not Romans in the first century

4.The first "he" in Daniel 9:27 is the other prince [the "antichrist]

>It is the Lord who will confirm the covenant with Israel by meeting the 6 objectives stated in Daniel 9:24 for a believing remnant of the nation during the 70th week .... the beast [in the little horn] is the second "he"

5.The antichrist will rise out of Europe

>The beast [in the little horn] is called the "Assyrian" in the visions and he will rise out of the northern Middle East [Tigris/Euphrates River basin]

6.The "antichrist" is the Pope

>The Pope is not recorded in any vision of the Bible prophets, but this position has and does lead a large sector of apostate professing christianity

7.The "antichrist" will claim to be Jesus Christ

>The beast [in the little horn] will not claim to be Jesus Christ, but will be openly "against" the Lord and will blaspheme Him

8.The 10 kings are Europeans or a global government [NWO]

>The 10 kings who unite with the beast are of Middle Eastern origin .... and there will be no new world order, but extreme disorder is scheduled for the time of the end

9.A peace treaty of 7 years will be made by the "antichrist" between Israel and the nation's enemies

>The covenant confirmed in the context of Daniel 9 is not a peace treaty and neither does the "antichrist" destroy by using a vailed "peace" agreement .... he will be a war monger from the get go and will use "peace" as a rational for killing billions who will not submit to him

10. A tribulation temple will be rebuilt for the Lord

>There will be no tribulation temple of the Lord's on the temple mount during the period, there are no instructions to build one in scripture, and the beast in the little horn will sit in a temple of "his" god .... this edifice is on the mount today

11.The temple of Revelation 11:1 is on the earth during the tribulation period

>This is a reference to the Lord's temple in heaven .... not one on the top of the temple mount in Jerusalem

12.The removal of believers at the "rapture" is the same as the Lord standing aside [taken out of the way] to allow for the "antichrist" to be revealed

>The Lord Himself is the restrainer of satanic contrivance, not the church [Daniel 10]

13.Revelation 14:14 is a resurrection of believers

>This is a harvest of the grapes of unbelievers who will be cut, gathered, and trampled in the winepress of the Lord's indignation at Armageddon

14.The passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are a focus upon the church

>These projected end time events are all about national Israel during the 70th week decreed for the nation .... not the church

15.Daniel's and the other prophets' visions include the church

>The church is not included in any of the visions of the Bible prophets .... only national Israel and the nations are presented

16.Ezekiel 38, 39 is a war before the end of the tribulation period and is not the battle of Armageddon

>Ezekiel's vision has two parts; the invasion of Israel .... and the ensuing battle of Armageddon 1260 days later

16.Gog is a Russian

>The Lord is addressing satan [gog] and modern Russia is not in this vision .... "rosh" means "head" or "chief" and is not a reference to Russia .... the land of Magog and associated post flood settlements were all northern Middle Eastern the same as today .... this land has been ruled by many different inhabitors and they are the adherents of Islam today

17.John's call to "come up" is the "rapture" of the church

>John's spirit was taken into the future [time travel] and to heaven to be shown the time of the end which is still pending .... he was then returned to Patmos where he died in prison .... his experience was not the "rapture" of the church

18.The church is not seen in Revelation after chapter 3

>The church of today of both those asleep and living at the time are seen in heaven with the Lord just before and during the tribulation period

19.The seals of the scroll are actual sequential events of the tribulation period

>These seals are portents of the actual events of the coming tribulation period and they must all be removed before the scroll of the actual events can open .... the tribulations on the earth begin in chapter 8

20.The symbol of the white horse of the first seal is the "antichrist"

>The symbol in this portent represents the Lord and His salvation offer which will continue to be operative [to conquer] during the tribulation period

21.The first beast of Revelation is a world government system

>This beast is the fallen angelic Abaddon-Apollyon who rules human kingdoms on the earth for satan .... human government systems do not go into and come out of the abyss

22.The first beast of Revelation is a resurrected human

>Abaddon-Apollyon will possess a human [the little horn of Daniel's visions], but the human little horn [king] will not be a resurrected human .... it is this beast who will be released [healed] from his prison in the abyss to rule again during the coming tribulation period

23.MBG [the "woman"] is the RCC

>Mystery Babylon the Great is symbolic of all of lost humanity past, present, and future .... not just the RCC .... apostate human religions are just a part of the "woman's" intransigent make up .... her seductions are legion and activated by the fallen condition of lost humanity

24.The Lord's two tribulation prophets [Enoch and Elijah] serve during the first 1260 days

>These two Israelite prophets will serve during the last 1260 days of the 70th week decreed for Israel during the occupation of Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount by the beast and his followers .... and they will not be Enoch and Elijah .... they will be mortal humans who will be killed and resurrected at the end of their service

25.The 24 elders and the great multitude seen in Revelation are the martyrs of the tribulation period

>These will not be martyred during the tribulation period and they are immortals who will be dwelling in heaven and are worshiping around the throne .... the martyrs of the tribulation period are those who will become believers during the period and they are seen under the alter; and they must all wait until the end of the tribulation period for their resurrection

26.The 200 million of Revelation 9 are human armies

>The four principal angels and their armies are all fallen angelics who will be released upon the earth to do satan's bidding during the tribulation period

27.Satan and the first beast of Revelation are the same entity

>Satan and this beast are not the same entities [Revelation 19:19-20; 20:1-3; 20:7-10]

 

[tghslh]

I found this board about a year ago or so. I rarely post mostly read however I do find it to be an environment one is not truly allowed to express how they feel unless its going with the status quo if you get my drift. I also feel many of the people over there well to me they seem quite judgmental and not very Christ like.

while it is true many christians and ,or religious people have had a bad attitude from time to time.and some God is working on about that. many do not. I'm sorry you have had a bad experience with some folks. However we have found there to be no fault in Christ. and he handles unlike us every situation correctly. so, what is Christ like to you? and, are you Christ like.Apparently you must know. Because you have stated they are not Christ like. Its been my experience that only those who know him can with Gods help, reach for that goal.:embarasse

 

[youngjohn]

We still wait for Stephen to give one verse that supports a pretrib rapture. We still wait. Instead we get a flow of words that deal with related ideas. Why the delay?

I think it is because there are no verses that require a pretrib interpretation.

Matthew 24 clearly speaks of a post tribulation rapture. Unless one is blind, he would agree.

Matthew 24:29-31 (ESV)
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [30] Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Why deny the plain words of Scripture?

youngjohn

 

[Fellowservant]

We still wait for Stephen to give one verse that supports a pretrib rapture. We still wait. Instead we get a flow of words that deal with related ideas. Why the delay?

I think it is because there are no verses that require a pretrib interpretation.

Matthew 24 clearly speaks of a post tribulation rapture. Unless one is blind, he would agree.

Matthew 24:29-31 (ESV)
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [30] Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Why deny the plain words of Scripture?

youngjohn

Thats what Christ said brother, its very difficult to implement a rapture before the first resurrection. Even the tribulation saints go in the first resurrection. And there is scripture for that as well.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The words they lived here (ie tribulation saints) means they came back to life at the first resurrection, and according to Christ, Paul and John and the rest of the apostles, that doesn't take place till the second coming...

But i see another possibility of rapture with the man child of rev, and the woman. See Isaiah chapter 66 as there seems to be a parallel here. But i wont teach it as fact, as i don't want to contradict...

Remember the prophecy of John the baptist coming as Elijah? well to the followers of Christ in his day this wasn't what they thought it was. So be careful with prophecy, as its not as it seems sometimes...

God bless all

 

[Stephen1]

Here is a short summary of the rant against the Lord's pre-tribulation "rapture" and some of those who carry it .... and why they do it [I will add more details regarding the deceptions of these false teachers in a later post]:

Examples of this teaching are presented by David McPherson [Darby McDonald hoax]and many sects of professing christian organizations like the RCC, MSOG "latter rain" movements [William Branham, George Warnock, Rick Joyner, Rod Brown, Paul Cain, Benny Hinn, Todd Bentely, etc.] , WWCG [Armstrong British/Israelism], Arnold Murray serpent seed cult, the SDA church [William Miller and Ellen White] Watchtower JWs [Charles Russell] ........ the list is a long one

The purpose and objective of doing this is to create exclusive proprietary doctrine for the false teachers and their following .... all of the above do it and at the same time all refute national Israel's position in unfulfilled prophecy .... all are replacement theologies and claim Israel's position for their memberships

I would suggest caution to those who consider and or follow those who teach these aberrant falsehoods because their attached doctrines often contain the seeds of potential loss of one's salvation

Do the scriptures tell of the Lord's involvement during the entire coming tribulation period?

Believe it .... all of the judgments upon the earth will be of the Lord's doing ..... they all come from heaven as Revelation unfolds .... satan is only His dupe in the process and once finished with him, the Lord will destroy the devil [Revelation 12:7-9; 12:12; 20:1-3; 20:10]

...... and do not be deceived by the false teacher who tells you that you can reach perfection and survive the coming tribulation period .... sounds like the devil's rant and I can tell you that he wants you to be tossed into the tribulation period with him when he is forced to the earth

..... sounds like MSOG corporate "manchild" theology .... one of the biggest lies on the block .... don't buy into it [a corruption of Revelation 12]

Do not follow these pied pipers into the tribulation period .... a time of confusion, vexation, destruction, and death .... most humans will not repent during the period and billions will be killed and lost forever

These masters of deception out for self gain abound today and the Lord has warned about them coming ..... they are here [Matthew 24:4-5]

2Thessalonians
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation
6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain [the great city of MBG] burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great *****, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

.... then the Lord will turn on satan's beast and followers and destroy them in the 30 days following the 2520 day tribulation period

Revelation
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. [parenthetical comment by the Lord ..... see Revelation 3:16-17]

16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Coming up: the proof of the pre-tribulation rapture from scripture <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

 

[youngjohn]

post trib rapture

We still wait for a single verse that supports a pre trib rapture.

A retired pastor wrote to tell me that Tozer believed in the post trib rapture. He said the level of commitment in the average Christian today requires the purification that the Tribulation will provide.

Another pastor wrote to say that those who believe in a pretrib rapture know in their own heart that it is not true.

But I have good friends who believe it. They simply have not obeyed the Bible command in 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) , "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

youngjohn

 

[Stephen1]

Revelation
3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Here are the scriptures that relate directly to the Lord's pre-tribulation action to immortalize believers, both those asleep and those living at the time .... I will discuss each of these and additional related scriptures on this thread soon

Acts
1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1lace>?

1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

Romans
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

1Corinthians
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Thessalonians
4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2Thessalonians
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

Matthew
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

2Peter
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation
3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.

7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of [away from] great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them [the 24 elders and the great multitude]:

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years [those who become believers during the tribulation period and are martyred].

 

[youngjohn]

Some time ago greatly beloved wrote, "I know you're discussing with YJ, but could you give ONE DIRECT verse that support pre-tribulation?"

Stephen answered with an host of verses. I guess he wants us to check through them and see if there is one that does what greatly beloved has asked for.

Stephen cannot answer the question.

I think he cannot because there are no such verses.

John Walvoord was a chmpion of that view, and he wrote that the Bible actually does not say that the rapture will come before the Great Tribulation. Later I read where Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice both said the same thing.

There could not be, because the Bible actually teaches something that contradicts the pretrib rapture view.

The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit, and He cannot contradict Himself.

I have pointed out what Matthew 24 says. That should have been evidence enough.

youngjohn

 

[chris meads]

evidence of the last days

Re: Wanted to see If Kelly would preach on these verses?‏
From: Carl Lentz ([email protected])
Sent: Wed 3/24/10 4:51 PM
To: [email protected]

Hey buddy.
Sounds like these verses are talking about you!!!
You my man.. You most definately fit this description. So maybe steve will preach about these. Verses about chris meads.
Keep seeking out professional help and medication. Even within ur insane, out of context scripture quoting, God loves you and I love you. Wish you the best, wish you mental stability. Whatever is goin on with you that causes you to do this, turn it around. Don't let it rule ur life.
Your buddy, carl
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld


----- Original Message -----
From: chris meads <[email protected]>
To: Carl Lentz; Lainie Aguilar
Sent: Wed Mar 24 16:45:51 2010
Subject: Wanted to see If Kelly would preach on these verses?

1BUT ALSO [in those days] there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines (destructive heresies), even denying and disowning the Master Who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their immoral ways and lascivious doings; because of them the true Way will be maligned and defamed.

3And in their covetousness (lust, greed) they will exploit you with false (cunning) arguments. From of old the sentence [of condemnation] for them has not been idle; their destruction (eternal misery) has not been asleep.

4For God did not [even] spare angels that sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them to be kept there in pits of gloom till the judgment and their doom.

5And He spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven other persons, when He brought a flood upon the world of ungodly [people].(A)

6And He condemned to ruin and extinction the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to ashes [and thus] set them forth as an example to those who would be ungodly;(B)

7And He rescued righteous Lot, greatly worn out and distressed by the wanton ways of the ungodly and lawless--(C)

8For that just man, living [there] among them, tortured his righteous soul every day with what he saw and heard of [their] unlawful and wicked deeds--

9Now if [all these things are true, then be sure] the Lord knows how to rescue the godly out of temptations and trials, and how to keep the ungodly under chastisement until the day of judgment and doom,

10And particularly those who walk after the flesh and indulge in the lust of polluting passion and scorn and despise authority. Presumptuous [and] daring [self-willed and self-loving creatures]! They scoff at and revile dignitaries (glorious ones) without trembling,

11Whereas [even] angels, though superior in might and power, do not bring a defaming charge against them before the Lord.

12But these [people]! Like unreasoning beasts, mere creatures of instinct, born [only] to be captured and destroyed, railing at things of which they are ignorant, they shall utterly perish in their [own] corruption [in their destroying they shall surely be destroyed],

13Being destined to receive [punishment as] the reward of [their] unrighteousness [suffering wrong as the hire for their wrongdoing]. They count it a delight to revel in the daytime [living luxuriously and delicately]. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their [a]deceptions and carousing together [even] as they feast with you.

14They have eyes full of harlotry, insatiable for sin. They beguile and bait and lure away unstable souls. Their hearts are trained in covetousness (lust, greed), [they are] children of a curse [exposed to cursing]!

15Forsaking the straight road they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam [the son] of Beor, who loved the reward of wickedness.(D)

16But he was rebuked for his own transgression when a dumb beast of burden spoke with human voice and checked the prophet's madness.(E)

17These are springs without water and mists driven along before a tempest, for whom is reserved forever the gloom of darkness.

18For uttering loud boasts of folly, they beguile and lure with lustful desires of the flesh those who are barely escaping from them who are wrongdoers.

19They promise them liberty, when they themselves are the slaves of depravity and defilement--for by whatever anyone is made inferior or worse or is overcome, to that [person or thing] he is enslaved.

20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through [the full, personal] knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse [for them] than the first.

21For never to have obtained a [full, personal] knowledge of the way of righteousness would have been better for them than, having obtained [such knowledge], to turn back from the holy commandment which was [verbally] delivered to them.

22There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.(F)



Godlessness in the Last Days

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

 

[Stephen1]

I will add commentary to each of the following scriptures and the significance related to the Lord's intent to immortalize the church of both those who sleep and those living just before He begins His coming time of judgment and wrath upon the earth

I will then give the reasons why refutations of this truth are in error by the flaws in a number of the views presented and why those who teach and follow are deceiving and being deceived in the next related series of postings:

Acts
1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1lace>?

1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

>Today's believer cannot know the time of His intervention .... those who become believers during His coming judgment and time of restoration of the kingdom to Israel [the 70th week decreed for the nation] will be able to know and observe His actions and will be able to predict the day of His appearance to rule the earth from Jerusalem

>There is no contradiction, but two different times ..... a time that cannot be known [His call for the church], and a time that can be known [His apperance at the end of the tribulation period] .... these two events will be separated by a time lapse of 2550 days

Romans
11: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

>Once the gentile component of today's church has been completed, the Lord will then bring the events of 70th week decreed for the nation of Israel, and the church [the 24 elders and the great multitude] will be with Him in heaven during the period

1Corinthians
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

>This event for all who belong to the Lord [both those asleep and living at the time] will be "caught up" ..... snatched by force, just before He brings the events of His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon the earth [same period as the 70th week decreed for national Israel] .... this last trumpet "for the church" is not the same as any the 7 judgment trumpets of the Lord's hour of trial, or the one sounding just after the period to gather the mortal survivors of which the believing component will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom on the earth

>The first trumpet sounding for the church is given in Revelation 1:10 .... this is the Lord speaking and addressing the church .... the last trumpet sounding for the church will be His command to immortalize the church

1Thessalonians
4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

>This is the summation of the above scriptural presentations of the Lord's "harpazo" action to immortalize the church just before He brings His judgment upon an intransigent world

2Thessalonians
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

>This gathering event is the Lord's immortalizing of the church just before He begins His judgment period [the day of the Lord]

>The believers addressed were troubled because they thought that they has missed this gathering ..... Paul sets them straight by explaining that the day of the Lord had not yet come because of the absence of the necessary conditions that will be operating during the period .... so they had not missed the gathering that was taught to them earlier .... the promise to keep them from His hour [time] of trial and judgment

Matthew
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

>The believer is commanded to be ready and not to found professing only ..... many profess, but only some will be ready .... at a time that no one can know

>It is significant to understand that those of the professing who become believers after this event will be shut out .... He will spew them out and they will enter the period of His wrath and judgment upon the earth ..... these will know that the earth is under His judgment by the events that will take place and will be able to predict the time of His appearing at the end of the period

2Peter
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

>The Lord's sudden intervention will come unexpectedly and with no warning for earth dwellers, the church will be caught up, the 70th week for Israel [a period of 2550 days] will begin [same as the coming tribulation period and time of "Jacob's trouble" ..... Jeremiah 30], and then He will appear and rule the earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years after which He will renovate this present earth and universe with a purging fire .... then a new heavens and earth prepared for eternity will ensue

Revelation
3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.

7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of [away from] great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. [parenthetical exclamation]

17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them [the 24 elders and the great multitude]:

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years [those who become believers during the tribulation period and are martyred].

>All of this is the evidence of the pre-tribulation "rapture" .... the church of today will observe His removal of the seals and will be dwelling in heaven with the Lord and worshiping around His throne during the coming time of His hour of trial and judgment .... these will not be on the earth during the period, but will return with Him to rule over His coming millennial kingdom

>Those who become believers and martyred during the period of His wrath will be under the alter [not around the throne] ..... and all must wait until the end of it for their resurrection and adding to the immortal church Revelation 6:9; 14:13; 15:2; 20:4 (those beheaded)

>The reader must know that Revelation's folding is repetative series of visions and that a number of subject views are repeated several times .... awarness of this unique literary structuring is evident in all of the prophetic scriptures of the Lord and His Bible prophets

>A primary example of this truth is the church of today seen in heaven at the onset of the day of the Lord's hour [time] of trial and judgment [Revelation 4:4; 5:5-10; 7:9-17 and 19:1-9]

>The church is also seen in heaven during the period as the tribulation events progress on the earth [Revelation 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14]

>The church is then seen returning to the earth to rule with Him at the end of the period [Revelation 19:11-14; 20:4 (those on thrones)]
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