Beware of the "Rapture Ready" Forum

[youngjohn]

post tribulatlon rapture

At the beginning of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus said, "See that no one leads you astray." Corrie ten Boom said that Jesus was referring here to the pretribulation rapture theory.

In our day it is a major heresy. But for eighteen hundred years of church history it was largely or totally unknown. Most Christians recognised that the Bible teaches a post trib rapture.

Luke 21:36 (ESV)
But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

If God planned to rapture us before the Tribulation, why would we have to pray to escape it?

youngjohn

 

[youngjohn]

biblical order of the rapture

Jesus gives the biblical order of events for the rapture in Matthew 24:29-31 (ESV)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [30] Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

People who believe in a pretrib rapture sometimes try to change the meaning of the Scripture. One thing they try is to claim that the "elect" in verse 31 are not the Church but are Jews going to Israel for the Millennium.

Let's look at what the Bible actually says.

Where will these elect ones be gathered from? Mark 13:27 (ESV) says "he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.' They will come from BOTH EARTH AND HEAVEN. The living saints will come from earth and the "dead in Christ" will come from heaven.

These from heaven cannot be Jews unless they are part of the Church.

Accept what the Bible says. Don't try to change it.

youngjohn

 

[Stephen1]

Matthew 24 is a focus upon Israel during the coming 70th week decreed for the nation .... not the church

The gathering noted in Matthew 24:29-31 is not a resurrection [or rapture of the church] , but one of gathering the believing mortal survivors of the tribulation period of the "elect" of Israel .... the Lord will then gather those left of the nations and separate them:

Ezekiel<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
5:10 Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.

5:11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.

5:12 A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.

Isaiah
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea

11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region>, and gather together the dispersed of <st1lace w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Judah</st1:country-region></st1lace> from the four corners of the earth.

27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth

<o>Matthew </o>
24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats

25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren {His kin, national Israel] ye have done it unto me.

Coming soon .... the flaws in post-tribulation teaching and the motivations of those who teach it .... there are hidden dangers attached to their particular forms of professing christianity

The biblical fact of the Lord's pre-tribulation call for today's church is evident to those who know all of the related scriptures taken together on the subject

Beware of the teaching those who are aggressively standing against this truth .... this position needs to be investigated for what it is

 

[youngjohn]

Matthew 24

When I was a child I saw that Matthew 24 contradicts the theory of a pretib rapture.

Matthew 24 is Jesus' answer to the questlion in Matthew 24:3 (ESV)
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"

The word coming here is the word Greek parousia.

Paul used this same word in 1 Thes. 4:15 (ESV)
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

It is speaking of the rapture. This proves to me that Matthew 24 is about the rapture.

youngjohn

 

[Stephen1]

Actually the word is "Harpazo" used describing the "catching away" caught up action by the Lord in 1Thessalonians 4 .... this event will take place for today's church just before the beginning of His coming hour of trial and judgment upon the earth

The same Greek word is used in Revelation 12 for the Lord's own catching up to heaven:

Lexicon Results
Strong's G726 - harpazō


Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away



Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 13
AV — catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1


His appearance to the world after the tribulation is over is defined as the "parousia" .... His appearance and coming to the earth .... and there would be no need for "harpazo" at the end of the period

Also, Matthew 24 does not include any resurrections and it is a focus upon Israel during the 70th week decreed for the nation ..... and not the church, those believing of Israel who survive this coming time of "Jacob's" trouble will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom on the earth as mortals .... not resurrected beings

 

[SunBoy]

Hi everyone,
I'm really enjoying the discussion of ideas, I lean towards a pre-trib rapture for the following reasons - feel free to comment where I may have strayed off the path.

1) No one knows the day or the hour.

Matt: 25:12
“Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
Matthew 25:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 25 (Whole Chapter)

If the rapture occurs after the tribulation, one would only have to know when the tribulation began, as Christ reference to the book of Daniel - then count 7 years, so you would be able calculate the day of Christs return - thus rendering all the scriptures as the one above meaningless.

2) Prior to the rapture the times will be like the times of Noah.

Matthew 24:38


View commentary related to this passage

<SUP id=en-NKJV-23992 class=versenum>38</SUP> For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, <SUP>39</SUP> and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

If this is the case it would have to mean that the tribulation will not be as bad as is described in the bible - thus explaining the eating and drinking, etc. The tribulation is described as a horrendous time for all mankind - hardly comparable to the times of Noah.

3) Are the rapture in Thessalonians and the gathering of the elect in Matthew the same event?

1 Thess. 4:16,17

<SUP id=en-NKJV-29616 class=versenum>16</SUP> For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. <SUP>17</SUP> Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Matt: 24:31

<SUP id=en-NKJV-23985 class=versenum>31</SUP> And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If they are, then there is something here that doesn't add up to me. If we continue on into Matthew 25.

Matt: 25:31

<SUP>31</SUP> “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy<SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>[c]</SUP> angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. <SUP id=en-NKJV-24037 class=versenum>32</SUP> All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. <SUP id=en-NKJV-24038 class=versenum>33</SUP> And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

If the rapture happens at the end of the tribulation, and all the elect have been gathered and taken into heaven to meet Christ in the air - at this moment in time there will not be one single 'elect' on the face of the earth - not one. But on Christ's return to the earth to sit on his thrown, the first thing he does is separate sheep from goats - who are these people? If only minutes before all the sheep had been transformed and taken to meet Christ in the heavens there will be no sheep on the earth to separate from the goats. If we continure this part of scripture we see that Christ goes on the tell them that the sheep clothed him, fed him, etc. and that the goats did not - this gives the idea that these are true christians, and christians-in-name-only, that he is talking to. This could only happen over a period of years, not minutes - during a time when there is an established church.

-S

 

[Stephen1]

SunBoy,

Good post !!!

You are on the right track for sure

 

[youngjohn]

SunBoy:

The most important reason why I accept the post trib rapture is that it fits Mathew 24.

Another reason is that I have read various lists by pretribbers and noticed that their reasons are very weak.

In my hand is a paper that says "The Tribulation is Jewish in nature and not Church."

Rev. 7:13-14 (ESV)
Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" [14] I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How can we say these who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are Jews and not Church?

youngjohn

 

[SunBoy]

Hi YoungJohn,
Thanks for your reply, as for me, pre- mid- post-, in the end it doesn't matter - in the light of Matt: 6:33, our faith should be in God, not in a rapture event. I see the scriptures for a post trib. event individually, but when I put all the scriptures together as a large picture, I don't see them all working together unless there is a pre-trib event. I don't want to repeat what I already stated in the above post, but in light of your scripture about the elders coming out of the tribulation, I don't beleive they have to be jews. If we use logic, these people are in heaven, therefore they were called of God and responded to his call, and apparently were martyred - one example of the tremendous hardship that will be facing the tribulation church. This shows that the times prior to the coming of Christ will not be like the the days of Noah, which Christ said it would be, 'like the times of Noah' (please excuse me for not retyping the scriptures).
But the main question with the post-trib idea that I can't explain with scripture, is the idea that when Christ returns to earth, Matt:25, he begins to separate sheep from goats. We know that in Thess. he has already gathered all his elect, and they have been taken to meet him in the air (I'm going to repeat myself - sorry), I'm assuming that you beleive that the gathering of the elect in Matt: and the Thess. event are the same event - correct me if I'm wrong. This is where things get dicy, if all the elect, have been raised to meet him, at this moment there are no elect on the earth - none. If we continue on into Matt: 25 we see that Christ continues to earth to sit on his throne, and begins to separate sheep from goats - but if all the elect have just minutes prior to Christ sitting on his throne been transformed to spirit and raised to meet him - who are these sheep and goats? This is the question, and the only way I can explain it is if there is time between the taking of the church and the moment when Christ returns to earth.
Gotta-go,
-S

 

[spirit1st]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

WE MUST understand WHY there is a Great Tribulation and the REASON God is pouring out His Wrath!

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
So some think , because GODS pouring out HIS wrath on evil people , That He is going to pour out HIS wrath on HIS own family and household and Body!

In life the tribulation we get is from the world , who are led by the devil!
Now some appear to think? We must also Suffer the WRATH of our FATHER God as well!
Watching our family and loved ones being tortured and destroyed

I never will believe our FATHER GOD wants us to Suffer from HIS wrath!
When HE tells us never to pour our our wrath on our children!


Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:


1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

That is why ? We should always think first , our Father is PURE PERFECT LOVE!

Would perfect LOVE punish HIS holy Kings and Priests along with those who have Rejected His gift of LIFE ! Is this the God Who wept over man. Yet when mankind turned to Him and Accepted Him as LORD and master ! He would then turn around and bring His wrath upon them?

I KNOW NOT!
He is a LOVING Father and Friend to his children!
Jesus would Never pour out His wrath on HIS own bride !

That would look good the Angels in heaven ? I think not!

You know its not just about this planet and those on it ! There is a far bigger picture ! All the many different kinds of beings He has created beyond this little planet are watching everything God is doing here!
And it Very important How they see God dealing with the World that has rebelled and his Elect !

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.



It would seriously grieve our Spirit! When HE clearly tells us Not to grieve His , Yet some think He would grieve ours ?


Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God

I believe in the catching away and meeting HIM in the Air!
Why would we go up to meet HIM in the AIR!


WE fear nothing , He already said ? The gates of hell cannot prevail against us!

I understand it takes Faith and Trust in our LORDS living Words to give is the Victory! And I see in scriptures how those in the true church prayed and GOD sent angels to free them and fight for them ! And He He said He could at any time pray and the Father would sent many angels and that We could do even greater works than Him!

At the least We too could pray to our Father as He did and get those same results!

So there are many reasons why the true church cannot be here for the Great Tribulation !

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Look i am no more than any child of GOD! Still I my self cast satan out once ! God was showing me , I had power over the mightiest demon of all and So does every child of GOD! HE already won the war for US All!

He gave us HIS POWER [Holy Spirit] And the means to use it , in HIS MIGHTY NAME!

Now I do know ? HE expects us to step out in Faith coupled with LOVE , to won the battle !

He already Won the War for us , But He allows us to fight these little battles on earth!

They seem big at times? They not really !

 

[Stephen1]

"So there are many reasons why the true church cannot be here for the Great Tribulation !"

>Yes there are .... this is the evidence of today's church dwelling in heaven with the Lord worshiping in His temple there and around His throne during the tribulation period on the earth .... and returning with Him at the end of it:

[Revelation 4:4; 5:5-10; 7:9-17 (these are the church of today who have come "away" "out of" "from" great tribulation .... not those who become believers during the tribulation and are martyred); 11:1; 12:12; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 (those on thrones)]

All other related scriptures of the Lord's coming "harpazo" action for today's church must be interpreted in the light of this evidence

The first trumpet for the church is the Lord speaking at the inception of the church in Revelation 1:10 .... the last trumpet for the church is noted in 1Corinthians 15:51-52; 1Thessalonians 4:16 (the Lord speaks again with a command)

This same last command for the church is heard in Revelation 18:4 just before the great city part of MBG is destroyed .... this event will take place at the onset of the tribulaton period [Revelation 8:8; 14:8; 17:16-18; 18:1-21] .... the Lord will then revisit the land mass where the great city stood during the battle of Armageddon and break it into 3rds [Revelation 16:18-19]

The 7 Revelation trumpets depict judgment; and the great trumpet sounding just after the tribulation period is not a resurrection trumpet, but a gathering of the mortal "elect" of national Israel who survive the period .... these will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth .... as mortals .... not resurrected beings [Isaiah 11:11-12; 27:13; Matthew 24:29-31]

These "elect" are the same noted in Matthew 25:31-46 ..... the Lord's kin .... His "brethren"

He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah by His humanity [Revelation 5:5]

The gathering noted in 2Thessalonians 2:1 is the Lord's "harpazo" action for the church .... this action will occur just before the beginning of day of the Lord's judgment upon the earth .... not after .... the Thessalonians thought they has missed this gathering because of the false teaching that the day if the Lord had already begun ..... they were troubled and Paul sets them straight on the issue

 

[youngjohn]

harpazo

Steven:

You keep using the word harpazo and I think you don't really understand what it means. It means to snatch away. It is a Greek verb, not a noun. It is never translated as coming.

Parousia is a Greek noun and it means coming. It is the subject of Matthew 24. It is also used in 2 Thess. 2:1 of our gathering together to Him at the rapture.

I hope this helps.

youngjohn

 

[Stephen1]

YJ,

I understand exactly what the Greek "harpazo" means .... it is the Lord's action to immortalize the church of both those asleep and those living as given in 1Thessalonians 4

I also know that "parousia" refers to His appearing at the end of the coming tribulation period

These are different events .... the first will occur just before [a time that no one knows] and the second will occur just after [a time that those on the earth will be able to predict to the day by the time lapse recorded in prophetic scripture]

The post tribulation view that you hold confuses these two separate events

 

[youngjohn]

parousia

Because I do not know how many people may read these words, I want to explain something not many people know.

In the Greek language there are a number of words that could express the idea of coming. The Holy Spirit chose to use the word parousia for Jesus' coming.

The word is composed of two Greek words. One is para that means alongside. A verb of being is joined to para and together they mean being alongside. That is the word parousia.

The word means more than an arrival. It implies coming to visit and then staying with the one being visited. This word is actually translated pesence in Phil 2:12. Jesus promised to stay with us when He comes at the rapture. "So shall we ever be with the Lord."
It is used in Matthew 24 and 2 Thess 2 of the coming for the Church. To the best of my knowledge it is never used of Jesus' coming to punish the wicked at the Second Coming.

youngjohn

 

[Stephen1]

Jesus will have already punished the "wicked" during the tribulation period .... this is what His hour [time] of trial will be for completing .... 2550 days of punishment

Then He will appear and establish His millennial kingdom upon the earth which will last for 1000 years .... a kingdom of mortals

But just before He brings His wrath and judgment of the tribulation period He will "rapture" ["harpazo" action] today's church

This is why the church [24 elders and great multitude] is seen in heaven before the judgments begin on the earth as described in Revelation 8 forward

Matthew 24 is a focus upon national Israel at the time of the end .... not the church .... and there is no resurrection of the church mentioned in the passage [the gathering is one of believing mortal Israelites who will have survived the tribulation period and these will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth]

.... because the church will be with the Lord when He appears to those left on the earth at the end of the tribulation period [Revelation 19:11-14; 20:4 (those on thrones)]

 

[youngjohn]

days of Noah

Sun Boy:

You wrote that the days of Noah seem not as bad as the days of the Great Tribulatlon.

But God said in Genesis 6:5-7 (KJV)
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [6] And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. [7] And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

God thought it was bad enough to destroy it all. Could it have been any worse?

I do think the parousia of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the same as His parousia in 1 Thess 4:15.

You also wrote that you cannot see how Matt. 25 can follow chap. 24. But you assume they will occur one right after the other. That isn't necesssarily so. I wonder if the marriage of the Lamb comes in between.

Remember when Jesus read Isaiah 61:2 (KJV)
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; He stopped after "year of the Lord." I think it was because two thousand years would pass between that and the next part, "the day of vengeance."

We can't assume that Matthew 25 will happen immediately following chap. 24.

The parousia of Jesus in Matt. 24 must be the same as the parousia of Jesus in 1 Thess. 4. There can be only one parousia of Jesus because when He comes once for His Bride, He will never again leave her alone

youngjohn

 

[youngjohn]

gates of hell

Dear Sir:

I was thinklng of the verse you quoted. Matthew 16:18 (ESV)
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter had just said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." I suppose this confession is the rock on which the Church was to be built.

The word "prevail" is used only twice in the New Testament and could be translates as overcome or overpower. The word hell is really the word hades which some take to mean the grave, or death. It is the emporary home of the dead.

There is a hymn we sing, "Death cannot hold its prey; He tore the bars away, Jesus my Lord." That will happen for us at rapture.

Imagine what a day that will be when we rise.

youngjohn

 

[Ophel]

Dear Sir:

I was thinklng of the verse you quoted. Matthew 16:18 (ESV)
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter had just said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." I suppose this confession is the rock on which the Church was to be built.

The word "prevail" is used only twice in the New Testament and could be translates as overcome or overpower. The word hell is really the word hades which some take to mean the grave, or death. It is the emporary home of the dead.

There is a hymn we sing, "Death cannot hold its prey; He tore the bars away, Jesus my Lord." That will happen for us at rapture.

Imagine what a day that will be when we rise.

youngjohn

Exactly! You've got it--thank you!

 

[youngjohn]

post trib rapture

We who believe the Scriptures are breathed by God pay attention to little things like single words.

Rev. 1:4 (ESV)
John to the seven churches that are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come ...."

The words is and was are verbs of being. The verb "is to come" is a verb of acton, of physical movement. The words here refer to Jesus who is to come. They are also found in 1:8. They are also in 4:8. This last verse shows that Jesus did not come at 4:1.

The words appear again at 11:17 with one change. Rev. 11:16-17 (ESV)
And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, [17] saying,
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.

Here it does not say "who is to come," but it says "you have taken your great power and begun to reign." Here at last Jesus will have come. Here is the time for "rewarding your servants the prophets and saints."

The rapture appears to come right at the middle of the book of Revelation.

youngjohn

 

[youngjohn]

more post tribulation rapture

Pretribbers often say the rapture in Revelation comes at 4:1.

There are reasons why that is not so.

1 Cor. 15:52-53 (ESV)
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. [53] For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

This tells us that at the rapture, dead bodies will be given life. That's the resurrection of the saints.

But in the fifth seal of chapter 6, the saints killed in the Great Tribulation are seen as souls without bodies. They had not yet experienced the resurrecton. The rapture had not yet happened.

Available evidence suggests that the rapture will happen in or about chapter 11.

youngjohn