Beware of the "Rapture Ready" Forum

[greatlybeloved]

Reason# 3. The Holy Spirit has been restraining evil and He will be taken out when the Church is raptured and THEN "that Wicked" will be revealed and the tribulation starts (2 Thessalonians 2:7).

Let me quote what 2 Thess 2:7 says:
2 Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."
NOTE: The word "letteth" means "restrains"

I wonder where do they see Holy Spirit in this verse or in the context!?

It says "the mystery of iniquity" is already working. In order to see who this "the mystery of iniquity" is, we need to understand who is the "mystery of godliness" (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, He is "God... manifest in the flesh". Now if "mystery of godliness" is God manifest in flesh, you can imagine who the "mystery of iniquity" is (Devil manifest in flesh!). So the devil was already at work in some human form in Paul's days. And who is he that restrains? and whom or what does he restrain? If Holy Spirit is restraining anything, we wouldn't see what we're seeing today. The world is full of evil today. I wonder what it is that the Holy Spirit is restraining!?

I know they say it will be lot worse during tribulation (to which I agree), and that (evil in tribulation) is what Holy Spirit restrains. Where did you guys (pretribbers) get the idea that Holy Spirit will restrain evil in the world. Yes, He convicts the souls of the sinners (who were chosen before the foundations of the world were laid), He comforts the believers, but restrains evil?

And the text doesn't even say that he (whoever "he" is) will restrain evil. It says, he will restrain the revelation of THAT WICKED, because he is ON HIS WAY (like being in the Q). One he is "taken out of the way", the revelation of that wicked will happen. Holy Spirit is not even in the context here!

It is the responsibility of the pretribbers to prove that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. Just interpreting the restrainer to be Holy Spirit is not sufficient without Scriptural support and they definitely cannot make a doctrine out of it!

Reason# 3 is refuted! More next...

God bless!

 

[greatlybeloved]

Reason# 4. God did not appoint us to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), that is why we won't be in tribulation.

When you read the above verse, it appears initially that we won't go through tribulation. But there are many instances where the wrath is kindled upon men. The ultimate wrath of God will fall upon men on the "day of the Lord". Please see the answer to "Reason# 1" above to see what the day of the Lord is according to the Scriptures.

I believe the "wrath to come" is THAT wrath, not the tribulation. My belief is not based upon mere speculation like pretribbers. Please see the Baptist's comments when the Pharisees and Sadducees take the baptism, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?". According to Matthew 24, the Jews will go through tribulation (pretribbers agree to this). The Pharisees are Jews and they fled from WRATH TO COME. So obviously the "wrath to come" is not the tribulation (because they will go through tribulation). It is the wrath of God on the "terrible day of the LORD". And that day of the Lord isn't tribulation!

So God has not appointed us to the wrath to come (the day of the Lord). Also please read 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5.

Reason# 4 has no base as well.


NOTE: All I'm trying to explain is no popular theory out there is FULLY accurate (even post-trib or prewrath). But the most of the pre-tribbers act like they know all the Bible and consider the rest to be jokers.

God bless!

 

[MightyAngel1]

Let me show how shallow their interpretation is! And by the way I'm neither pretrib, nor posttrib, nor prewrath nor anything. I see loopholes in all of these interpretation.

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

So, You see loopholes in all of the interpretations regarding the Rapture? Hmmm. Interesting observation, I must say. Well, I will say this. Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill the Law. See Matthew 5:17.

 

[MightyAngel1]

When you read the above verse, it appears initially that we won't go through tribulation. But there are many instances where the wrath is kindled upon men. The ultimate wrath of God will fall upon men on the "day of the Lord". Please see the answer to "Reason# 1" above to see what the day of the Lord is according to the Scriptures.

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

Look at this passage of Scripture and tell me what you see...

Acts 15:14-17

14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

 

[greatlybeloved]

So, You see loopholes in all of the interpretations regarding the Rapture? Hmmm. Interesting observation, I must say. Well, I will say this. Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill the Law. See Matthew 5:17.

MightyAngel,

How is the Lord's fulfilling of the law relevant to what I wrote. Am I missing something? Please feel free to expound.

Thanks,

John.

 

[greatlybeloved]

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

Look at this passage of Scripture and tell me what you see...

Acts 15:14-17 ...

I will look into passage and will see if there is anything relevant to what I said in my previous posts or if there is any pre-trib rapture proofs in the passage.

In the mean time could you write your thoughts on what I wrote in particular, as I addressed four points in my previous posts?

Thanks,

John.

 

[MightyAngel1]

MightyAngel,

How is the Lord's fulfilling of the law relevant to what I wrote. Am I missing something? Please feel free to expound.

Thanks,

John.

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

You asked if you are missing something? Well, The mere Fact that Jesus said that He came to fulfill the Law is extremely important information regarding End Time Bible Prophecy. All one has to do then, since Jesus has made this statement in Matthew 5:17, is look at the Law that Christ fulfills and understand that law by studying this Law. Now, Please take a look at this verse and ponder this verse for a while keeping Acts 15:14-17 in mind...

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Since Jesus Christ has fulfilled part of the Law at His First Advent, He will finish fulfilling all of the Law, that is what is left to fulfill, at His Second Advent.

Don't you feel that it would be very prudent for all Christians to study the Law that Christ fulfills so that they would know what He will do next?

Since The Law is already written, and Christ is fulfilling that Law that is already written, Don't you think you could tell me what He will do next?

I firmly believe that when you study the Law that Christ fulfills, You would be able to tell me everything He will do in the next 20 years. Everything. Why? Because the answer is already there waiting for you.

All you have to do is read the Law and understand the Law. This is just how simple End Time Bible Prophecy really is. Just understanding the Law that Christ fulfills.

 

[MightyAngel1]

I will look into passage and will see if there is anything relevant to what I said in my previous posts or if there is any pre-trib rapture proofs in the passage.

In the mean time could you write your thoughts on what I wrote in particular, as I addressed four points in my previous posts?

Thanks,

John.

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

Sure, I would be delighted to do so. The First post you wrote on was the Day of the Lord. So, With that thought in mind, Looking at Acts 15:14-17, would you please show me where The Church Age ends? Secondly, Would you please show me where The Lord returns?

This passage of Scripture is very powerful. And, While you are looking at Acts 15:14-17, Would you also show me where specifically The Old Testament Prophet Elijah appears?

Malachi 4:4-6

4. Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So, What I am asking you to do is...

1) Show me where the Church Age ends?

2) Show me where The Lord returns in Acts 15:14-17
and
3) Show me where The Old Testament Prophet Elijah appears in the same passage keeping Malachi 4:4-6 in mind.

Acts 15:14-17

14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

 

[greatlybeloved]

I see where you're coming from. I fully agree with you that ALL Christians should study the law and prophecy and especially about the immediate HOPE that we have (i.e., what should we be looking for according to the Scriptures). When I say, "none of the existing theories are accurate", I do not mean we should stop studying end times prophecy.

The First post you wrote on was the Day of the Lord. So, With that thought in mind, Looking at Acts 15:14-17, would you please show me where The Church Age ends? Secondly, Would you please show me where The Lord returns?

I don't find any explicit statement about the end of the Church age in entire Bible (may be I'm wrong, and would appreciate if you could show me). And definitely don't find it in Acts passage that you gave above.

When you say, "the Lord returns", which "return" are you talking about? the pre-tribbers talk about rapture (the Lord coming to mid air) and the second coming (the Lord coming to the earth [mount Olives]) as TWO separate events. Which return are you talking about?

From the above Acts passage, this is what I understand (sequentially), there might be missing points in between:

1. The Lord taking people out of gentiles for His name (Church), and creating a separate entity called the "body of Christ" (Acts 15:14).
2. After THIS (i.e., separating people from gentiles), He will return (I don't know which return this is, most probably it is second coming)
3. After His coming, the Lord will build the tabernacle and will rule (this looks like millennium)

The Church age has to end either AT the Lord's return (if this return is rapture) or before His return (it the "return" is second coming). If both rapture and second coming are same events, then the Church age ends AT HIS COMING!

3) Show me where The Old Testament Prophet Elijah appears in the same passage keeping Malachi 4:4-6 in mind.

It is clear from the passage you gave that Elijah should come BEFORE the day of the LORD (this does not necessarily mean "just before").

God bless!

 

[MightyAngel1]

I see where you're coming from. I fully agree with you that ALL Christians should study the law and prophecy and especially about the immediate HOPE that we have (i.e., what should we be looking for according to the Scriptures). When I say, "none of the existing theories are accurate", I do not mean we should stop studying end times prophecy.

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

Ok, Great. Yes, All Christians should study the Law that Christ fulfills. When They do that, Their New Testament interpretation will be according to what Christ will do in the future according to the Law the He will fulfill.

 

[MightyAngel1]

I don't find any explicit statement about the end of the Church age in entire Bible (may be I'm wrong, and would appreciate if you could show me). And definitely don't find it in Acts passage that you gave above.

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

Paul writes about the end of the Church Age in Romans 11:25. Blindness in part has happened to Israel and his seed until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Once again, See Acts 15:14 and Acts 15:16.

 

[MightyAngel1]

When you say, "the Lord returns", which "return" are you talking about? the pre-tribbers talk about rapture (the Lord coming to mid air) and the second coming (the Lord coming to the earth [mount Olives]) as TWO separate events. Which return are you talking about?

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

I am talking about the one clearly shown in Acts 15:14-17. Specifically, Acts 15:16. The Bible clearly shows us After this I will return. The PreTribbers say that because The Law that Christ fulfills regarding the Rapture and the Second Coming are 2 distinct Commandments. They are not the same Commandment.

 

[MightyAngel1]

From the above Acts passage, this is what I understand (sequentially), there might be missing points in between:

1. The Lord taking people out of gentiles for His name (Church), and creating a separate entity called the "body of Christ" (Acts 15:14).

Perfect. You see the calling out of the Gentiles, Gentile Elect, in Acts 15:14. These Called out Gentiles are added into the Kingdom and these Gentiles are uncircumcised. Paul preaches the Gospel of Uncircumcision to the Gentiles. See Galatians 2:7.

In Ephesians 3:6, Paul uses the Greek Word Sussomos which means joint body.

 

[MightyAngel1]

2. After THIS (i.e., separating people from gentiles), He will return (I don't know which return this is, most probably it is second coming)

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

Well, Take another look. This is not the Second Coming as you understand it. You do see, however, The Bible says After this I will return in Acts 15:16. And, This is where I am going to focus with you.

GB--3. After His coming, the Lord will build the tabernacle and will rule (this looks like millennium)

Again, Take another look. Elijah appears back on this earth before the Tabernacle of David is rebuilt. Which occurs when the Bible says, After this I will return in Acts 15:16.

Elijah does not return to this earth when the Millennium begins. Elijah returns before the tribulation period begins. He is in Jerusalem prophecying during the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week. And, Elijah's return occurs after the Church age.

Here is a question to think about. Who brings Elijah back to this earth? And, When? Just look at Acts 15:16-17 and take a look at what you see? The answer is right in front of you.

 

[MightyAngel1]

The Church age has to end either AT the Lord's return (if this return is rapture) or before His return (it the "return" is second coming). If both rapture and second coming are same events, then the Church age ends AT HIS COMING!

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

Ok, You say the Church age has to end either at the Lord's Return (if this return is rapture)... What you have said is very important. I agree with you on this part of what you said. Yes, The Church Age ends when the Lord returns.

GB--It is clear from the passage you gave that Elijah should come BEFORE the day of the LORD (this does not necessarily mean "just before").

I agree. So, Looking at Acts 15:14-17, Where does Elijah return to this earth? Just show me where Elijah returns in the passage I showed you. Just simply do a cut and paste will be fine.

 

[Fellowservant]

You are right on brother! It is the attitude that makes all the difference when studying the Scriptures, especially prophecy.

2 Corinthians 4:2 *But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God

God bless!

I agree I also agree with most of your post. Very similar to what i believe, and what folks should be teaching. Your going to have contradictions with them all. Well for now anyway, most prophecy needs to be fulfilled, before it is understood completely.

There was no way for the Jew to except John the baptist as the coming of Elijah. Why? because the old testament says that Elijah will only come, before the great and dreadful day of the lord.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:


Christ told his disciples that they would have to except that John was Elijah, and that he had already come. So some things in prophecy have to be excepted by the saints. But they probably won't be excepted until they are fulfilled.


Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
at 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.



Some folks also take the parables of Christ at face value, this has caused many false teachings about this and other views on prophecy (Ie Amil and the timing of the resurrections of the just and unjust) These are parables and its not wise to take all parables word for word. Gotta try and leave room here for interpretation errors, or it gets messy. When it came to the scriptures the scribes were half wrong, do we think we are all right? Not by a long shot...

God bless

 

[greatlybeloved]

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

Paul writes about the end of the Church Age in Romans 11:25. Blindness in part has happened to Israel and his seed until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Once again, See Acts 15:14 and Acts 15:16.

No offense, but it would be beneficial for all of us if you could explain your understanding a bit more, instead just asking questions like "when do you think the Church age ends", etc., I don't clearly get where you are driving the discussion into. And I'm having to make lot of assumptions to understand your position.

And I honestly don't see any "church" in Romans 11:25. Paul was talking about how the believing gentiles (wild olive branches) are grafted into Israel (the olive tree) and some original olive branches are cut off. They were cut-off because blindness in pat has happened to Israel. Paul is telling THIS blindness would remain "until the fulness of the GENTILES [not Church] be come in"

While I kind of agree that the olive tree (along with wild branches) is church, the removal of blindness of Israel is NOT linked with the Church, but GENTILES.

So I don't see any end of the Church age.

 

[greatlybeloved]

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

Well, Take another look. This is not the Second Coming as you understand it. You do see, however, The Bible says After this I will return in Acts 15:16. And, This is where I am going to focus with you.

So "return" in Acts 15 is rapture according to you! I took another look at the passage and this time I'm sure that it is the Lord's coming TO THE EARTH. "After this I will return, AND WILL BUILD AGAIN THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID". His return FOLLOWS building of the tabernacle OF DAVID. So this has to be ON EARTH (David's tabernacle was on earth and the Lord is saying He will build AGAIN) which means second coming and NOT rapture (for at rapture, the Lord will come to the MID AIR according to pre-tribbers).

Again, Take another look. Elijah appears back on this earth before the Tabernacle of David is rebuilt. Which occurs when the Bible says, After this I will return in Acts 15:16.

Elijah does not return to this earth when the Millennium begins. Elijah returns before the tribulation period begins. He is in Jerusalem prophecying during the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week. And, Elijah's return occurs after the Church age (emphasis mine).

I did not say Elijah returns when Millennium begins. Elijah's ministry is of-course during tribulation. However where does it say that "Elijah's return occurs after the Church age"??? What proof do you have that Church age ends BEFORE Elijah comes?

Here is a question to think about. Who brings Elijah back to this earth? And, When? Just look at Acts 15:16-17 and take a look at what you see? The answer is right in front of you.

Honestly brother, I have no idea what your thoughts are on Acts 15! Why don't you explain what you think on the passage instead of asking me repeatedly to "look again". I looked time and again and I don't see the END of church age (although I see the beginning in Acts 15:14), nor do I see Elijah there, nor do I understand how you concluded the "return" in verse 16 is rapture!? If you see other passages linking to this passage, please explain and write your understanding instead of asking me, coz apart from what I wrote on Acts 15 I cannot write anymore (coz I don't see anything else).

God bless!

 

[greatlybeloved]

Howdy Greatlybeloved!

Ok, You say the Church age has to end either at the Lord's Return (if this return is rapture)... What you have said is very important. I agree with you on this part of what you said. Yes, The Church Age ends when the Lord returns.

If I know that I almost know the whole eschatology! Please note that I had lots of IFs in my statement. I don't know when the Church age ends. If I knew, I would know if the Church goes through tribulation or not. And I was merely giving a pre-tribber's point of view on the churh age end. Sorry for the confusion.

GB--It is clear from the passage you gave that Elijah should come BEFORE the day of the LORD (this does not necessarily mean "just before").

I agree. So, Looking at Acts 15:14-17, Where does Elijah return to this earth? Just show me where Elijah returns in the passage I showed you. Just simply do a cut and paste will be fine.

It seems to me that you are mixing up the "day of the LORD" with the Lord's return. The day of the LORD starts with the sun and moon getting dark (this is sixth seal - Revelation 6:12-17, also read 2 Peter 3:10). The day of the LORD is UPON HEATHEN (Obadiah 1:15). And it is written, "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD!" (Amos 5:18). It is NOT the Lord's return for His people. It is the day of vengeance!

But this day of vengeance is NOT tribulation. Please read Matthew 24 (especially see when the tribulation ends).

God bless!

 

[greatlybeloved]

Some folks also take the parables of Christ at face value, this has caused many false teachings about this and other views on prophecy (Ie Amil and the timing of the resurrections of the just and unjust) These are parables and its not wise to take all parables word for word. Gotta try and leave room here for interpretation errors, or it gets messy. When it came to the scriptures the scribes were half wrong, do we think we are all right? Not by a long shot...

Exactly brother! The prophets "enquired and searched diligently" (1 Peter 1:10) to understand the TIMING of the salvation of grace coming unto them. Especially with both the Lord's sufferings and His glorious coming mixed up, they did not understand. For example, Zechariah 9:9 talks about His first coming and verse 10 talks about His glorious rule. Who would have thought that there is more than 2000 years GAP in between. We have a similar situation in Malachi 3:1-2.

However I;m not saying we should not study, but we should be careful not to come to conclusions based on assumptions. If you look at the whole pretrib theory, they have woven a nice story around rapture. Here are a few of the man cooked stories:

1. Fourth kingdom in Nebuchadnezzar's dream is "revived Roman empire", I wonder where did they get it from!?

2. Anti Christ will be a JEW!? (It may or may not be true, but it has no Scriptural basis)

3. Rapture is a SECRET event!!! (where in the world did this come from)?

And so many others. People need to STUDY Scriptures instead of reading some books like they are Scriptures.

God bless!